Orochi Balance idea | Forums

[ServiusOrtus]

So we've all been there, you're going on a streak in the duel playlist and BAM you run into that one Orochi and just like that you feel like you've been robbed that awesome streak.

The Orochi is a very good harasser hero and has great mobility. Even without the parry ability you still stand a good chance against other classes if you utilize the move set to your advantage. Orochi can close the gap very quickly with the dash attacks and get out fairly easy with their quick dodge.

The main issue is the Orochi's ability to potentially parry any attack. This is a problem because it's one of the main components of the Orochi's kit. Because defensive stance is one of the core mechanics of this game, it becomes second nature to try and counter each hit. It sounds easy enough but in the heat of battle and considering some heroes can even feint, your reaction might be slow and can sometimes happen last minute. This is where the problem lies, the Orochi gets rewarded for these late reactions with free damage and that damage is no joke either. They can even continue with another deadly combo if you give them the chance.

Here's my suggestion, a parry should not have the same input method as simply blocking (which is a core mechanic) and it should be a high risk reward like every other parry mechanic in any other game. What if to parry an apponent you had to hold the guard button like usual and hit the direction button TWICE instead (e.g. L2+Right, Right on PS4) and if you miss you are left open for a counter attack. This way you are rewarded if you have prepared for the attack in time and guessed correctly and avoid the very common insta-parry.

TL;DR parry right now is way too easy for such high reward. Especially when most blocks end up being parries due to the nature of late reaction. Suggested solution is to change the input method of parry.

I think you're right on the money for what is making people have Orochi over the edge of balance. Their deflect + dash/Dodge + attack speed + move speed is just a bridge too far in terms of their versatility of defense options. Basically no other class has that many hyper viable options. I won't reiterate a ton too much but here's my more detailed thoughts: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...ggested-Tweaks

[Unagi88]

If we all agree that the traits of the Orochi are:
- Quick Movements
- Quick Strikes
- Countering for big damage
Then how about we focus the Orochi play style around that?

The reason we are seeing so many posts about this topic is because the Orochi, in it's current state, is oppressive both offensively and defensively. As we all know, Orochi was in at least 80% of everyones games, which shows the majority of players during the alpha really enjoyed this play style.

I think a very simple way to fix this issue without crippling their play style would be to nerf their NON-COUNTER damage. They can keep the lightning fast attacks that are incredibly hard to block and even harder to parry, as is their right for being such an agile character. However, if they chose to play hyper aggressive, which most do instead of playing reactively looking for the big counter damage, they should be punished for it.

This would definitely change the way this hero plays in a very simple way that won't affect the intended play style. If you are an Orochi that runs in and dashes around, wildly swinging and not ever countering, i'm sorry, but I feel that is not the intended style of the Orochi.

[Ruxem]

Orochis take some skill to use and I really don't think that you can parry absolutely anything with them. They are fine as they are imo.

I found the common Orochi players, guys.

@OP, I agree.

[zymic1997]

My issue with them is that that are way too quick. You just get spam attacked by them. Most of the time I have a hard time defending anything because they spam attack me. Orochi is too quick.

[Yggdrasil_67]

If we all agree that the traits of the Orochi are:
- Quick Movements
- Quick Strikes
- Countering for big damage
Then how about we focus the Orochi play style around that?

The reason we are seeing so many posts about this topic is because the Orochi, in it's current state, is oppressive both offensively and defensively. As we all know, Orochi was in at least 80% of everyones games, which shows the majority of players during the alpha really enjoyed this play style.

I think a very simple way to fix this issue without crippling their play style would be to nerf their NON-COUNTER damage. They can keep the lightning fast attacks that are incredibly hard to block and even harder to parry, as is their right for being such an agile character. However, if they chose to play hyper aggressive, which most do instead of playing reactively looking for the big counter damage, they should be punished for it.

This would definitely change the way this hero plays in a very simple way that won't affect the intended play style. If you are an Orochi that runs in and dashes around, wildly swinging and not ever countering, i'm sorry, but I feel that is not the intended style of the Orochi.

The reason the Orochi is thought to be so OP is exactly because it is so agile and fast while also being a counter-oriented character. The real problem lies in its capability to instantly counter any light or heavy attacks very easily, which makes their opponent unable to attack them because they'll immediatly get countered and then eat a double up-stance attack because it is chainable.
Boom, almost half your health gone because you dared to attack an Orochi. That ruins the pace of the game. Their damage output isn't the problem, it's their harassment capability and the extremely easy to pull off instant counter that's chainable.

The best way to deal with this, IMO, is to either:

• make the deflects possible only on heavy attacks
• slow down the light counter attack
• make the llight counter attack blockable
• remove the light counter attack but keep the heavy one

They also need to change Storm Rush so that you can't instantly launch it after a backward dodge and/or make it unchainable.

[LughDeDannan]

Play the range game with them, it wasn't always possible but they can be beaten with some dodging to range to use longer sweeping attacks to hit and devastate them.

[SXYdanzoFREEK]

So we've all been there, you're going on a streak in the duel playlist and BAM you run into that one Orochi and just like that you feel like you've been robbed that awesome streak.

The Orochi is a very good harasser hero and has great mobility. Even without the parry ability you still stand a good chance against other classes if you utilize the move set to your advantage. Orochi can close the gap very quickly with the dash attacks and get out fairly easy with their quick dodge.

The main issue is the Orochi's ability to potentially parry any attack. This is a problem because it's one of the main components of the Orochi's kit. Because defensive stance is one of the core mechanics of this game, it becomes second nature to try and counter each hit. It sounds easy enough but in the heat of battle and considering some heroes can even feint, your reaction might be slow and can sometimes happen last minute. This is where the problem lies, the Orochi gets rewarded for these late reactions with free damage and that damage is no joke either. They can even continue with another deadly combo if you give them the chance.

Here's my suggestion, a parry should not have the same input method as simply blocking (which is a core mechanic) and it should be a high risk reward like every other parry mechanic in any other game. What if to parry an apponent you had to hold the guard button like usual and hit the direction button TWICE instead (e.g. L2+Right, Right on PS4) and if you miss you are left open for a counter attack. This way you are rewarded if you have prepared for the attack in time and guessed correctly and avoid the very common insta-parry.

TL;DR parry right now is way too easy for such high reward. Especially when most blocks end up being parries due to the nature of late reaction. Suggested solution is to change the input method of parry.

This is legit. I mained the Raider, I played the **** out this character and found that they have plenty of weaknesses. I played the Orochi once, simply because it was too easy playing this character... I'm not that good. I agree with your idea to change button patterns. That makes perfect sense. Personally, I think every character should require some skill. Maybe it was a lucky game, but that one match was ridiculously one-sided in my favor.

[Unagi88]

The reason the Orochi is thought to be so OP is exactly because it is so agile and fast while also being a counter-oriented character. The real problem lies in its capability to instantly counter any light or heavy attacks very easily, which makes their opponent unable to attack them because they'll immediatly get countered and then eat a double up-stance attack because it is chainable.
Boom, almost half your health gone because you dared to attack an Orochi. That ruins the pace of the game. Their damage output isn't the problem, it's their harassment capability and the extremely easy to pull off instant counter that's chainable.

The best way to deal with this, IMO, is to either:

• make the deflects possible only on heavy attacks
• slow down the light counter attack
• make the llight counter attack blockable
• remove the light counter attack but keep the heavy one

They also need to change Storm Rush so that you can't instantly launch it after a backward dodge and/or make it unchainable.

Let me get this straight, you're going to quote my ENTIRE post and discredit it with, "the real problem lies in it's..." the **** is that? Why quote me at all?


Anyway, I appreciate your input I guess. However, ontop of the Orochi having the lowest health pool in the game, and only being able to parry or dodge attacks as defense, a class that is otherwise reliant on parrying for their big damage, is supposed to either have that defense nerfed or not be able to block an entire move set altogether? You're talking about crippling both their damage and defense by nerfing their already skill-based counter attacks. That's not balancing, that's a death sentence to this class.

Also,

Their damage output isn't the problem, it's their harassment capability and the extremely easy to pull off instant counter that's chainable

nerfing their NON-COUNTER damage would deter their "harassment capability" as you have just as much of a chance to parry them as they do. Their counters are only easy to pull off if you're being predictable, try not spamming or guard breaking them if they decide to play defensively.

[kaveman528]

I feel like the orochi is fine, maybe i'm just not great with orochi or something but whenever i went against a raider most of the time his light attacks would be faster than mine.

[Yggdrasil_67]

Let me get this straight, you're going to quote my ENTIRE post and discredit it with, "the real problem lies in it's..." the **** is that? Why quote me at all?

I was being lazy and didn't feel like cutting the post, sorry about that.

However, ontop of the Orochi having the lowest health pool in the game, and only being able to parry or dodge attacks as defense, a class that is otherwise reliant on parrying for their big damage, is supposed to either have that defense nerfed or not be able to block an entire move set altogether? You're talking about crippling both their damage and defense by nerfing their already skill-based counter attacks. That's not balancing, that's a death sentence to this class.

Everyone can parry, block and dodge. The Orochi just happens to have the best dodge in the game (other than maybe the peacekeeper) on top of deflects being easy to pull off with the assassins' reactionary defense, where you can only block for a second and the first half of it is a deflect. So no, they are not hard to pull off and can even happen unintentionally.

They have two counters, light and heavy. So no, removing the light one doesntT make them incapabe of countering. If it comes to that, they should make the heavy variant a tad faster.
The light one is instantaneous: you try to attack and you get hit instead and they get initiative. I'm not sure if it's chainable, but I never got blocked after a counter, perhaps because the other players kept trying to attack when I countered them because they didn't expect it so they didn't change their stance. If you make it blockable it still counters mixups.
The heavy one is perfect as it is. If the Orochi attempts it too soon they will get hit by the rest of the chain.
It's also technically not a counter but Storm Rush is extremely good at making their opponent whiff their attacks and make them lose half their HP with the combo chain. If somethings needs a nerf it's definitely this.

Also, nerfing their NON-COUNTER damage would deter their "harassment capability" as you have just as much of a chance to parry them as they do. Their counters are only easy to pull off if you're being predictable, try not spamming or guard breaking them if they decide to play defensively.

Here's what I really didn't agree with. As you said, the Orochi has the least amount of health in the game so far. Just how much would you nerf the damage? You have just as much of a chance to parry them but they can almost always deflect and counter and you can't parry a light counter, not sure about the heavy one Less damage doesn't mean they can't chain from their light counter and Storm Rush, which is what everyone is complaining about. Just the sotrm rush damage is fine in itself, it's a heavy attack, but it comes with a free 2-hit combo. If you reduce the damage enough so that you can't kill someone with just two Storm Rush, then you'd just as much cripple the class as if you'd remove both counters and nerfed it's dodge, don't you think? Also, if I remember well, their attacks are a slight bit quicker than the zerk which makes it the best mixup class so far. They are too good at defense and punish opponents for trying to attack, which ruins the pace of battles. They are the best at dodging, the best at mixups, the best at zoning, and the best at punishing. I don't think nerfing their non-counter damage will make it less relevant.

So yeah, the only way to deal with an Orochi is to get close if they are not dodging (because they move better than you) and then guard break them if they aren't already attacking you because they know you can't attack them directly.