A Few Troubling Aspects | Forums

[Sylentmana]

So I've been watching every little video I can lock my eyes on from announcement trailers to the latest footage and I've noticed a few things about the game that I personally find troubling. Yes, I know its early and things will most likely change before release and I haven't had hands on experience with the game. However, I still feel that my observations could be of some use.

First: Many have noted that the UI is far too cluttered when it doesn't need to be. This topic has been run ragged already, so I'll keep it relatively short. We don't need the entire screen to fill up with green + marks every time the player is healed. Its kind of annoying and unnecessary. The green glow around the character and the refilling health bar are enough.

Second: I have a small issue with the executions. They leave you very vulnerable and open to attack which, in some videos, players often take advantage of. The way I see it, an execution should be treated as a kind of small visual reward for defeating your opponent. When you are attacked and interrupted during one, it feels as though that reward has been stolen from you and it's frustrating to watch. It would be nice, in my opinion, if performing an execution gave you a small period of invulnerability only for the duration of the animation. Kind of like the ripostes in the Dark Souls games.

Third: The combat seemed more fun and interesting when it was slower and more methodical. Back in the first gameplay footage shown at E3 2015, it seemed that each player could only take a small number of hits before dying. Maybe 2-3 lighter strikes and only 1 heavy strike. Now it seems that players can bat each other around for a while giving and taking multiple hits before victory/defeat. This not only lowers the tension for each player v player encounter, but it also encourages what seems to be a rather poor playstyle. This leads into my next point.

Fourth: The system seems to encourage a "dishonorable" and rather annoying to watch playstyle. What I mean is this: Because it takes a bit longer to take down an opponent, many players seem to be ganging up on each other attacking from all sides. For a game called "For Honor", there seems to be very little of it to go around what with all the back stabbing taking place. The extended health also seems to encourage an annoying hit-and-run tactic, with players breaking off and rolling away. Understandable against multiple players at once, but annoying in 1 v 1 situations. This would seem fine for classes that focus on this sort of gameplay, like the assassin type characters we've seen in the most recent trailers, but not for the front line warrior classes.

Now, this issue may be resolved later with the introduction of different classes/roles, but if not, I would suggest reducing player health to the original state (as seen in the E3 2015 gameplay reveal) as well as form some system to award points differently depending on how you defeat another player. For example, a player who defeats others by flanking or attacking from behind instead of engaging in 1 v 1 could receive less points than one who played it straight. The reverse would be done for the assassin classes. I believe this would encourage more skillful gameplay and would add that note of tension the combat had in the original gameplay video.

That's really all I have for now. Again, I know its still a bit too early to judge and that certain things have been hidden in the demos or have yet to be implemented. As such, they are certainly not a deal-breaker yet. I would just like to see this game be as exciting and fun as it can possibly be. I would like to also remind everyone that these are just my opinions and should be taken as just opinions, so I would appreciate it if no one bites my head off just because they may disagree. Thanks all.

[Great_Gundyr]

I agree with everything but the invulnerability when performing "finishers". Don't execute one if they're not the only one left, simple as that. It will make them more rare and pleasing to watch, instead of this unimmersive "cant hit me when im performing" mechanism. As for lowering the standard health, I agree, since when could 5ft Samurais in wooden armor take 4-6 blows from a 4 foot steel long sword. This game should be about immersion not catering to the mainstream audience. Less health means more tension, better move making, and larger losses when gambling irrational attacks or play styles.

[Sylentmana]

I see what you mean with the finishers. Its just that I've seen instances where the person was the last standing in an area and started to perform a finisher, when suddenly an enemy player comes barreling around a corner to attack from behind and interrupt the move. I do think you have a good argument for invulnerability breaking the immersion though

[Pallbearer7]

I agree that a more punishing (i.e. smaller) health amount system would be possibly more interesting. I think this is something you need to play the game to have a full opinion on, as maybe those extremely short duels could be annoying if the enemy just starts off with a good combo, as there are multi-attack sort of combo maneuvers that, in a low health system, may end the fight way too quickly for the fastest fighter to just throw one out. But coming from someone who really likes Bushido Blade, I'm all for realism with the weapons.

The executions absolutely need vulnerability during them because they are a game mechanic. Executing someone is two-fold a reward already. You must have finished them with a heavy attack, which requires planning and strategy, and you need to have the time to perform the execution, because if you do the player can NOT be revived by their allies if executed. That's why it's necessary to be able to stop executions. I don't think that just because you finished a duel with a heavy attack you should be guaranteed to stop their revive. Coupling that with an animation where you must have some breathing room to perform it rounds it out well.

I like Dark Souls a lot, but the "I just gotta wait for this guy to finish his animation before I can touch him" little waiting game would be pretty annoying in this game with what they're going for, I feel.

[Yggdrasil_67]

Like the others said, executions are fine as they are.

Now about the amount of health, it does indeed seem too high. From the gameplay I've seen, most players weren't that effective at blocking the hits and even then they'd still take a while to go down while the attacker was spamming light attacks. This is not how I imagined the game's combat at all, it also encourages ganking way too much. Although it might be part of the plan, considering the revenge mechanic.

But make it too low and it becomes way too erratic and less about skills. It shouldn't take just one heavy attack to defeat even the weakest hero health-wise, except for the Shugoki if it's as slow as I've heard. I like my fights tense too but feats would be too hard to balance if the average health pool gets too low.

[Sylentmana]

Good points, especially in regards to the executions. I guess my biggest grievance, if you could even call it that, is that I see the players flailing wildly about and still winning, or acting "cowardly" and running off when they start to loose. This seems to go against the way the game seems to be intended to be played. I'll admit that I may just be perceiving these things incorrectly as I have not had the opportunity to play the game for myself. It could also be that the players were just not very skilled what with the game only being a demo at a convention and all. This could mess with my perceptions of the game. Maybe I just need a Bushido Blade remake.

[Yggdrasil_67]

I guess my biggest grievance, if you could even call it that, is that I see the players flailing wildly about and still winning, or acting "cowardly" and running off when they start to loose..

I feel you on this, but the way I see it, once someone has the initiative and goes on the offensive, they don't want to leave an opportunity to their opponent. When that happens to you, what you can do is keep on the defensive until they run out of stamina or try and counter their heavy attacks with a light attack if you can react fast enough. Although the best way to ensure initiative is to be aware of the spacing between you and your opponent, and always stay a step away from either making them whiff their attack or closing the gap yourself to attack and then steping back out of range not too long afterward. Just like Kendo.

Of course I haven't actually played the game but that's just a piece of my mind about people spamming their attacks.

Maybe I just need a Bushido Blade remake.

You and me both, brother.

[MisterWillow]

First: Many have noted that the UI is far too cluttered when it doesn't need to be. This topic has been run ragged already, so I'll keep it relatively short. We don't need the entire screen to fill up with green + marks every time the player is healed. Its kind of annoying and unnecessary. The green glow around the character and the refilling health bar are enough.

The green health effect I can agree should be toned down.

The rest of the UI, especially in Dominion, is absolutely necessary in certain situations, simply because there's so much happening that if the indicators weren't there, you would not be able to defend yourself.

Second: I have a small issue with the executions. They leave you very vulnerable and open to attack which, in some videos, players often take advantage of. The way I see it, an execution should be treated as a kind of small visual reward for defeating your opponent. When you are attacked and interrupted during one, it feels as though that reward has been stolen from you and it's frustrating to watch. It would be nice, in my opinion, if performing an execution gave you a small period of invulnerability only for the duration of the animation. Kind of like the ripostes in the Dark Souls games.

You can notice in the recent videos from Gamescom that if you're executed you cannot be revived. The ability to interrupt an execution allows for players to 'save' a teammate who's already lost, allowing them to be picked back up.

Third: The combat seemed more fun and interesting when it was slower and more methodical. Back in the first gameplay footage shown at E3 2015, it seemed that each player could only take a small number of hits before dying. Maybe 2-3 lighter strikes and only 1 heavy strike. Now it seems that players can bat each other around for a while giving and taking multiple hits before victory/defeat. This not only lowers the tension for each player v player encounter, but it also encourages what seems to be a rather poor playstyle. This leads into my next point.

The footage from 2015 showcased heavy attacks for the most part. The damage models might have altered slightly from then, but I don't think it's been as much as you think.

Fourth: The system seems to encourage a "dishonorable" and rather annoying to watch playstyle. What I mean is this: Because it takes a bit longer to take down an opponent, many players seem to be ganging up on each other attacking from all sides. For a game called "For Honor", there seems to be very little of it to go around what with all the back stabbing taking place. The extended health also seems to encourage an annoying hit-and-run tactic, with players breaking off and rolling away. Understandable against multiple players at once, but annoying in 1 v 1 situations. This would seem fine for classes that focus on this sort of gameplay, like the assassin type characters we've seen in the most recent trailers, but not for the front line warrior classes.

A smaller health pool wouldn't mitigate lopsided fights, they'd only make them more difficult for the defender, and would further encourage people to roam around in groups of two or three slaughtering people.

As much as I hate the tactic, there isn't really anything the devs can do on their end except add another system like Revenge that help the defender not die as quickly.

[AvarusTyrannus]

Mr.Willow hit it already, but I want to stress how against invincible executions I am, as we all should be. You have to judge if the execution is worth it, your reward for a more skilled kill is that the victim can't be revived, takes longer to respawn, and it looks super cool. If there are other opponents around you need to be aware of the risk in leaving yourself open in exchange for the benefits.

[Pallbearer7]

A smaller health pool wouldn't mitigate lopsided fights, they'd only make them more difficult for the defender, and would further encourage people to roam around in groups of two or three slaughtering people.

As much as I hate the tactic, there isn't really anything the devs can do on their end except add another system like Revenge that help the defender not die as quickly.

I would like to see as an April Fools update a system where if you attack someone who is already being attacked by another person or two you instead deal your own damage to yourself. That would brighten my day.