Valkyrie. Spear and Shield | Forums

[guest-qJfdaWlD]

Having seen the image of the valkyrie, I have some concerns regarding both equipment she uses, the shield and the spear.

First the spear, there is alot of debate as to whether spears were used overhanded or underhanded in conjunction with a shield. Those who argue for underhand use generally believe that holding it this way braced under the forearm gives the greatest reach and power. Some also argue that underhand provides greater control than overhand since the extra contact the spear has with the forearm will make it more manageable than just using your hand and wrist to control it if held overhand.

However these arguments simply are not true. In terms of reach, underarm will have some advantage due to the arm being fully extended horizontally at shoulder height whereas overhand will have the arm at an angle greater than horizontal in order for the hand to hold the spear. That being said, in terms of power overhand simply has more. When athletes throw javelins, they throw from the overhand position instead of underhand. Hip rotation and weight shifting transfers power into the upper body where the chest can stretch open and then contract at the same time as the lats pull down to accelerate the javelin quickly. Underhand on the otherhand will not allow an individual to create this slingshot effect with his upper body, only allowing for the lats to pull up and forward, reducing the acceleration of the javelin and hence power. For a video regarding this please look here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaSKE57rZA

As for control, underhand appears to be more stable in recovery when thrusting back and forth in the air compared to overhand since the grip is not comprimised at the end of the thrust where the pinky/ring finger/ middle finger will have to loosen in order for the spear to shoot out forward from the overhand. However, a greater concern is not the grip but rather the direction deflected thrusts will go. If held underhand, the spear can really either go left-and-down, right-and-down, left-and-up, or right-and-up. Assuming right handedness, any left deflections will require shoulder external rotation, while right deflections shoulder internal rotation. Downward deflections requiring bicep contraction vs tricep contraction for upward deflections. On the other hand, all deflected overhand thrusts will always go down, meaning recovery will always be raising the shoulder upward, which is much more simple and less demanding than doing a shoulder rotation movement

Stance telegraphing is the last reason why a one-handed spear should be held overhand. If held underhand, the spear will just thrust outward and cross slightly to the left or straight to the right or upwards for overhead. The starting position for all these attacks will all have to come from the exact same spot, making stance telegraphing non existent, which is a major part of this game. By making the spear held overhand, it will be easier to see which stance the player is in by having the spear held to the right of the holding shoulder, almost above the head, or over the left shoulder

Shield size also appears to be a bit too small. When holding a spear one handed, parrying with it is almost going to be non existent as the wrist is holding onto a long lever that will have even more force exerted onto it while blocking and parrying. That means the only way to defend will be to use the shield. As such it will have to be a bigger size (perhaps down to knee height) in order to provide adequate defence. Those who will argue a buckler can be much smaller must realize that when a sword is used with the buckler, the sword too can act to defend and guard areas that minimal movement of the buckler cannot cover

Additionally, I hope the shield's stance position will be independent of that of the spear's to create more uniquely different gameplay by having to manage 2 different 'weapons' instead of just one. Perhaps holding block + changing stance will change the position of the shield (left with edge forward opening body, right with shield hand crossing over to the right, or overhead with shield well raised overhead). Changing stance without holding block simultaneously would then only change the stance of the spear. Perhaps combos from guard break could involve using the shield to press and control the opponent. Ideas on shield manipulation here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc

tldr; Make spear held overhand, Make shield big enough to at least knee height, Make shield's stance independent of spear's stance

[Ymir.exe]

Pretty sure underhand can thrust from more angles than overhand. Underhand can be raised to be overhand, similar to high prime in fencing, but overhand can't be lowered to be underhand. Overhand can only ever thrust straight or slightly from right to left given a right-handed individual. From underhand with a round shield you have the entire 180 degree semi-circle on your spear-hand side to thrust from. You can thrust below the shield, to the side of it, or above it.

It can't cut either, if you happened to be using a spear that allows for that, like a partisan or a winged spear. Any spear with a long blade, really. And yes, I know. "One-handed cut with a spear? Is he mad?" But if you're couching the spear like a lance, you'd have enough stability for a one-handed sweeping cut of significant power.

[iHunny]

Additionally, I hope the shield's stance position will be independent of that of the spear's to create more uniquely different gameplay by having to manage 2 different 'weapons' instead of just one. Perhaps holding block + changing stance will change the position of the shield (left with edge forward opening body, right with shield hand crossing over to the right, or overhead with shield well raised overhead). Changing stance without holding block simultaneously would then only change the stance of the spear.

There is no block key, you shift stance to block. You automatic block left attacks in a right stance, reverse for right attacks and you block high attacks from a high stance.

[ZenBearV13]

Those who will argue a buckler can be much smaller must realize that when a sword is used with the buckler, the sword too can act to defend and guard areas that minimal movement of the buckler cannot cover

Just wanna throw this and this up here. You don't have to use a sword with a buckler and you can still adequately defend yourself.

[DraxeI]

Any spear with a long blade, really. And yes, I know. "One-handed cut with a spear? Is he mad?" But if you're couching the spear like a lance, you'd have enough stability for a one-handed sweeping cut of significant power.

And the Valkyrie does use this technique, as shown during this year's E3 campaign demo: https://youtu.be/YuuJZ2m2x0k?t=241
There are also other videos out on YouTube of this campaign mission where you'll get to see the Valkyrie fight for a little bit.

[Pallbearer7]

There is no block key, you shift stance to block. You automatic block left attacks in a right stance, reverse for right attacks and you block high attacks from a high stance.

I heard that you have to hold L2 in order to actually block. Your stance is always in a direction, but you don't actually block unless you hold down the guard mode button. This is supported by the official control scheme:

[MisterWillow]

First the spear, there is alot of debate as to whether spears were used overhanded or underhanded in conjunction with a shield.

Well, considering the defense stances are Left, Right, and Overhead, I don't really know why it would be underhand.

Make shield big enough to at least knee height

I think the size of the Valkyrie's shield is more of an attempt to differentiate her visually from the Warlord beyond their gender. Nonetheless, the size of the shield is fine, and could easily be used to block whatever attacks are thrown her way.

Make shield's stance independent of spear's stance

What, you mean like being able to hold the shield Left and the spear Right? You'd need an additional thumbstick (and additional thumb) for that to work from a control perspective.

Changing stance without holding block simultaneously would then only change the stance of the spear.

You can't change stance without holding block, and moving the right stick while not holding guard moves the camera.

[guest-qJfdaWlD]

Pretty sure underhand can thrust from more angles than overhand. Underhand can be raised to be overhand, similar to high prime in fencing, but overhand can't be lowered to be underhand. Overhand can only ever thrust straight or slightly from right to left given a right-handed individual. From underhand with a round shield you have the entire 180 degree semi-circle on your spear-hand side to thrust from. You can thrust below the shield, to the side of it, or above it.

Well for the purposes of this game, all attacks should originate from a 'stance' whether that be left/right/top. Sure enough a high prime position can be used for the overhead stance, but what about left and right? If the spear is always originating from the 180 degrees on the right side of the shield, how can there be proper signalling to the opponent that the spear-wielder is planning to attack the right and the left? This is one of the reasons why i am suggesting an overhand position because based on whether the hand is held over the left shoulder or above the head or beside the right shoulder more clarity is given regarding attack intentions.

Also it has been suggested that an advantage of using spear overhanded is the possibility of throwing it. I am not advocating outright throwing the spear out, but by having the spear overhanded perhaps the "Light attack" would be a quick stab at the target and any "Heavy attacks" would have the spear sliding forward for greater reach and power at the cost of major recovery times. Something like this, without completely throwing it out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyaB6KQbksM

Maybe an underhanded deep thrust can be implemented by selecting a 'down' stance through the guard direction. The valkyrie can then switch the spear underhanded and take a passing step to lunge forward at the target. Since none of the other characters have a 'down' stance this would be essentially unblockable and mirror how some of the other classes have attack directions that are unblockable either. The balance for the very far reaching and unblockable attack in this case would be a period of time (subject to balance) where the valkyrie has to switch grips and give her opponents a chance to react to this movement. Or if this provides to be overly cumbersome, maybe back load the time delay instead of front loading it, such that if the attack misses it takes a great deal of time to recovery and allowing the opponent to capitalize on the overcommitment

[guest-qJfdaWlD]

Well, considering the defense stances are Left, Right, and Overhead, I don't really know why it would be underhand.

I meant more just debates in general, not just pertaining to this game. But glad you think overhand would be the best portrayal in this case

I think the size of the Valkyrie's shield is more of an attempt to differentiate her visually from the Warlord beyond their gender. Nonetheless, the size of the shield is fine, and could easily be used to block whatever attacks are thrown her way.

Thats understandable and I suppose its within the realm of artistic license. Well if damage can only be applied to the upper body i totally agree it would be enough, but if legs can take damage too then a kite shield would be a greater way I believe of differentiating the Valkyrie from the Warlord while at the same time being practical. Afterall, why would shield maidens, which are what the valkyrie are based off of, have the smallest shield in the game? Logically they would probably have the biggest one... like a kite shield

What, you mean like being able to hold the shield Left and the spear Right? You'd need an additional thumbstick (and additional thumb) for that to work from a control perspective.

You can't change stance without holding block, and moving the right stick while not holding guard moves the camera.

Well since L2 is Guard mode so far and L1 does not appear to be mapped to anything at the moment, how about for 2-handed weapons, L2 must be held to affect stance changes. But for those with a shield and flail, shield and sword, shield and spear, axe and axe, L2 will move the stance of the right hand while L1 will move the stance of the left hand. That way this concept of individually controlling each hand can also apply to the dual-wielding berserker as well

[MisterWillow]

Thats understandable and I suppose its within the realm of artistic license. Well if damage can only be applied to the upper body i totally agree it would be enough, but if legs can take damage too then a kite shield would be a greater way I believe of differentiating the Valkyrie from the Warlord while at the same time being practical. Afterall, why would shield maidens, which are what the valkyrie are based off of, have the smallest shield in the game? Logically they would probably have the biggest one... like a kite shield

Except Vikings didn't use kite shields.

I know they've taken significant artistic license in terms of the factions aesthetics---the Vikings in particular---but you need to draw the line somewhere, and I think kite shields would be a step too far.

Well since L2 is Guard mode so far and L1 does not appear to be mapped to anything at the moment, how about for 2-handed weapons, L2 must be held to affect stance changes. But for those with a shield and flail, shield and sword, shield and spear, axe and axe, L2 will move the stance of the right hand while L1 will move the stance of the left hand. That way this concept of individually controlling each hand can also apply to the dual-wielding berserker as well

L1 is actually Quick Chat. You can see it here (though I'm pretty sure it's never used in this video).

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