What should the Co-op Campaign be like? | Forums

[EddieTheBunny2]

o be fair, that is by far not the main problem. In fact I'd say it is much more the restrictiveness rather than the "enabling Sam to do too much" that is the problem here.

What I'm saying is these **** wads at Ubisoft REPLACE things with "Stuff Sam can do". I only see it is perfectly fine if it doesn't screw up anything else. Mark and Execute for example replaced the jump button. I would rather be able to make my own special path with the jump button than have Sam be able to go to town on everyone with "BADASS HEADSHOTS!". If Sam can do it, FINE, we don't need him to do it though. Just like the **** with the assault "Playstyle". It took away from the stealth because "Sam is able to do it". I'm sure Marcus Fenix is able to ghost his way through the Locust, but that would take away from the people that like to play Gears as a shooter.

a tactical crowbar doesn't sound horrible. It's the bigger (and louder) version of the knife he used in CT.

Again, IF YOU WANT TO, but Blacklist doesn't give us a choice. MY choice would be the lockpick or finding an alternate path. Would you like it if Chaos Theory had you using the knife to open every single locked door? See, the fact that it is REPLACING something is the problem. I don't care if it doesn't effect the gameplay, but in this case, IT DOES and that's what I'm talking about with Ubisoft. They think just because Sam CAN do something, they have to force it on us with these cutscenes and unavoidable scenarios in gameplay.

coop partners being in completely different areas, doing side objectives (some of which may require coordination like for example having to hack 2 devices on opposite sides of the facility simultaneously)

That's something I sure as hell would like if we could find a decent teammate on the game. 70% of people playing coop are just stupid as hell. There needs to be some kind of grouping or match maker system that compares stats to players and match you up with your best suited teammate, cause otherwise, I'm left playing different missions by myself because I keep getting a stupid teammate ****ing up everything and coop just becomes a wasted mode that I never play. That's also why I though it MIGHT be cool if you could play the coop missions by yourself and the developers could remake the scenarios on the map where you would need coop to where you don't and a single player can pass through. This way those missions don't go completely wasted. I would love to play the coop mission from Chaos Theory by myself, but they require a partner to get past and since the servers are down, I can no longer play those missions unless I plug another controller in and play split screen by myself. It's just an idea really. They COULD do this too. They already remade maps differently on Gamecube, PS2, and Xbox so I know for a fact they could make it so coop missions don't HAVE to be coop.

Enable us to choose between 3 - 4 different Agents (not Sam if possible) or create another team like Kestrel and Archer

I always thought it would be cool to customize my character in both coop AND multiplayer. Blacklist didn't fully deliver what I wanted in customization. I wanted to customize my color of goggles or if somebody didn't want light on their goggles at all, they could do so, or you could have multi-colored lights if you wanted. Same with merc. Customize your visor color, etc. Well, the problem Ubisoft made with this was the fact that certain outfit hide your more than others and made gameplay a nightmare. If I wanted to be more invisible, I had to wear the ****ing nanofiber suit with the feathers and look like a ****ing peacock JUST to be invisible, but if I were to wear the CLASSIC Splinter Cell outfit, I was detected SO easily and seen in the shadows(AS MUCH SENSE AS THAT MAKES)

Possible rules are: Nr. of enemies, X alarms = game over, no gadgets, no weapons, non-lethal, lethal only, no sonar, enemy types, security settings (how many cameras, lasers, etc), etc

I really hope they get this right if they decide to do this cause usually these types of customization things never go as well as imagined.

I think that's about all I want out of a coop mode. Not that hard to do if you ask me.

It really SHOULDN'T be that hard. We're really not asking for much. In fact, we're STILL mostly asking for things to RETURN.

[EddieTheBunny2]

Never said that actually, stop throwing your words in my mouth.

This is something people need to stop doing. Saying that they never "SAID" that. No, but you were implying it.

Ever heard of options?

CT - Pick lock or enter through a crawl space. OPTIONS: 2
Blacklist - Breach Door or sit there wondering why there's no other way in. OPTIONS: 1
Have I heard of options? Oh, no, of course I haven't...

Ever think that there might only be one way to go?

Oh okay, so if guns blazing is the only way to go, then you're fine with that too I guess.
It's a video game. Stop trying to be as "realistic" as possible. If it's a stealth game, you make scenarios that fit the stealth genre.

You seem to like that until it's something that wasn't in Chaos Theory, nice job at seeing from another perspective.

You seem to have a problem seeing it from my perspective. You think just because I believe your way is absurd, I'm somehow not seeing other people's take.

I have nothing to say concerning this because I hardly understand what you're trying to say.

A Door is unopenable. What do you do... instead of the devs making it a locked door, they make it a door that you have to breach open. That is what I'm saying.

Why not give us something non-scripted to have as an in between

I'm perfectly fine with that so long as it doesn't ruin stealth gameplay which in Blacklist's case, IT DOES.

Cause considering what I've said its no more "not stealth" than being able to bash down a door or throw a frag grenade.

No, what I'm saying is when the game scripts the player to do something the he could do differently is something BAD. If a game forces me to breach open a door which from my understanding you're okay with, that is not okay for me and would much prefer if it MUST be scripted, they make the scenario where you could do something more stealthy. Breaching a door as the only option in a stealth game is just flat out stupid.

[the_oper8r]

This is something people need to stop doing. Saying that they never "SAID" that. No, but you were implying it.

Pfffft that's not how it works. I never typed that. Therefore, I did not "say" it. What I am implying depends on who is reading it. You are taking to many opinions as absolute fact, and saying people said something because you believe that's what they meant.

CT - Pick lock or enter through a crawl space. OPTIONS: 2
Blacklist - Breach Door or sit there wondering why there's no other way in. OPTIONS: 1
Have I heard of options? Oh, no, of course I haven't...

Give me more options. Give me a variety. I want full tactical choice of how I approach a situation. Oh yeah, and in Blacklist the breaching was nothing more than a loading screen, it wasn't an option.

Oh okay, so if guns blazing is the only way to go, then you're fine with that too I guess.
It's a video game. Stop trying to be as "realistic" as possible. If it's a stealth game, you make scenarios that fit the stealth genre.

Again, implying things. I never said it has to be loud. Like I said multiple times a crowbar can be used to quietly breach a door. That fits the stealth genre. Silent. How many God damned times do I need to say this?

You seem to have a problem seeing it from my perspective. You think just because I believe your way is absurd, I'm somehow not seeing other people's take.

Here's is what I gather from your perspective, based on what you've said here and in other threads (basic semi-sarcastic representation)- "Grrrr Ubi bad! Give CT everything! No, Ubi too stupid! Grr (insert feature) isn't SPLINTER CELL".

I'm perfectly fine with that so long as it doesn't ruin stealth gameplay which in Blacklist's case, IT DOES.
No, what I'm saying is when the game scripts the player to do something the he could do differently is something BAD. If a game forces me to breach open a door which from my understanding you're okay with, that is not okay for me and would much prefer if it MUST be scripted, they make the scenario where you could do something more stealthy. Breaching a door as the only option in a stealth game is just flat out stupid.

No, no, no. No. No. I never said I was fine with it. If you're gonna go around saying I "said" something when I really didn't, be prepared to back it up. Cause right now I am.
"I don't want them [as in breaching a door] as some scripted sequence" -Me, page 4, post number 39. I am 100% against them being scripted 1 option sequences.

You haven't said that you don't want breaching doors because it ruins stealth, you've said you don't want it because it "isn't Splinter Cell" or because "it shouldn't be in a stealth game".
"SURE, but that's not what should be in a STEALTH GAME". -You, page 4, response 35.
"It's not Splinter Cell, we don't breach doors". -You, page 3, response 25.
Now this isn't me going based off of what you implied, I'm going off of what you put down in your response. And most of it is contradictory to what you're saying now.

[EddieTheBunny2]

in Blacklist the breaching was nothing more than a loading screen, it wasn't an option.

So, you're telling me they couldn't have made a lockpicking animation for the loading screen at the least?

Again, implying things. I never said it has to be loud. Like I said multiple times a crowbar can be used to quietly breach a door. That fits the stealth genre. Silent. How many God damned times do I need to say this?

The way you breach a door in Blacklist? If so, then you're out of your mind.

Here's is what I gather from your perspective, based on what you've said here and in other threads (basic semi-sarcastic representation)- "Grrrr Ubi bad! Give CT everything! No, Ubi too stupid! Grr (insert feature) isn't SPLINTER CELL".

Well, you do happen to look at my points in a shallow perspective so that doesn't surprise me.

You haven't said that you don't want breaching doors because it ruins stealth, you've said you don't want it because it "isn't Splinter Cell" or because "it shouldn't be in a stealth game".
"SURE, but that's not what should be in a STEALTH GAME". -You, page 4, response 35.
"It's not Splinter Cell, we don't breach doors". -You, page 3, response 25.
Now this isn't me going based off of what you implied, I'm going off of what you put down in your response. And most of it is contradictory to what you're saying now.

Keep in mind we're going off Blacklist here and the way Blacklist does it should not be in a stealth game. Now the way you more specifically described recently is an acceptable way. Not the Blacklist way.

The way I made my response sounds contradictory. It isn't though. If you look at the way they breach doors in Blacklist 1, it's scripted, 2, it's loud as ****. If you look at YOUR way now that you've cleared things up, you're talking about the way the Thief reboot does it which is slowly and somewhat quiet. <---THAT I don't mind. The Blacklist version I do because it's just stupid as ****.

[the_oper8r]

So, you're telling me they couldn't have made a lockpicking animation for the loading screen at the least?

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the thing isn't a choice at all, it's scripted and its BS. Sure they could've have a lock picking thing in there.

The way you breach a door in Blacklist? If so, then you're out of your mind.

No you dolt. I'm sorry but again I state something multiple times but you still don't get it, I'm speaking of the non-extremely loud way of prying a door open. Of course the way in Blacklist isn't silent, I've stated that.

Well, you do happen to look at my points in a shallow perspective so that doesn't surprise me.

You're points are most of the time not very deep. No offense but majority of the stuff you say is very clearly anti-Ubisoft with little to no compromise. I mean seriously come on your main point against any type of door breaching in Splinter Cell was that it "isn't Splinter Cell".

Keep in mind we're going off Blacklist here and the way Blacklist does it should not be in a stealth game. Now the way you more specifically described recently is an acceptable way. Not the Blacklist way. The way I made my response sounds contradictory. It isn't though. If you look at the way they breach doors in Blacklist 1, it's scripted, 2, it's loud as ****. If you look at YOUR way now that you've cleared things up, you're talking about the way the Thief reboot does it which is slowly and somewhat quiet. <---THAT I don't mind. The Blacklist version I do because it's just stupid as ****.

Finally. Exactly what I've been saying. I never said the Blacklist way is silent.

[EddieTheBunny2]

No you dolt. I'm sorry but again I state something multiple times but you still don't get it, I'm speaking of the non-extremely loud way of prying a door open. Of course the way in Blacklist isn't silent, I've stated that.

Sorry, but the typical way of breaching a door is total SWAT mode with either a breaching charge or the SWAT maneuver that Blacklist uses with it's breaching animation which is why that sounded like a stupid idea to me. Your way is the way the Thief reboot does it is for things like windows where he gently pries it open with just a slit and then lifts the rest up with his hands.

the stuff you say is very clearly anti-Ubisoft with little to no compromise.

If I was seriously anti-ubisoft, I would post nothing but negativity. That's only about 85% of what I post but that last 15% is my solution. I wouldn't be on here to just post random **** about how I hate Ubisoft. I want things to get better and recognizing mistakes will do that, but so far, they've shown me that they absolutely refuse to own up to them and that's why it's hurting their sales. They don't want to listen.

I mean seriously come on your main point against any type of door breaching in Splinter Cell was that it "isn't Splinter Cell".

Well it kinda ISN'T. Generally, that's not what you would do in a Splinter Cell game. That's like using silencers in Gears of War, it just looks totally out of place. It isn't Gear of War. As long as it doesn't hurt the main focus of the game then by all means, put it in, but usually Ubisoft makes it do more harm than good. That's why the playstyles SOUND great, but there were not great at all and only did "More harm than good".

Finally. Exactly what I've been saying. I never said the Blacklist way is silent.

I'm not the best at getting my point across in an online forum of a video game, that's why I make the videos... because the tone can make a big impact on what you're trying to say.

[the_oper8r]

Sorry, but the typical way of breaching a door is total SWAT mode with either a breaching charge or the SWAT maneuver that Blacklist uses with it's breaching animation which is why that sounded like a stupid idea to me. Your way is the way the Thief reboot does it is for things like windows where he gently pries it open with just a slit and then lifts the rest up with his hands.

The Thief was is sorta what I was referring to. So yes I agree with that. But just a technicality, but SWAT teams (atleast in the US and most of Europe) use battering rams instead of crowbars, the method Sam and Isaac use in Blacklist is more akin to something Special Operations Forces would use, either way it's not good for Splinter Cell. But the more silent way is fine.

If I was seriously anti-ubisoft, I would post nothing but negativity. That's only about 85% of what I post but that last 15% is my solution. I wouldn't be on here to just post random **** about how I hate Ubisoft. I want things to get better and recognizing mistakes will do that, but so far, they've shown me that they absolutely refuse to own up to them and that's why it's hurting their sales. They don't want to listen.[/QUOTE]

Well fair enough, but honestly you're one of the most critical of Ubisoft on here. And it's arguable whether it's constructive 100% of the time.

Well it kinda ISN'T. Generally, that's not what you would do in a Splinter Cell game. That's like using silencers in Gears of War, it just looks totally out of place. It isn't Gear of War. As long as it doesn't hurt the main focus of the game then by all means, put it in, but usually Ubisoft makes it do more harm than good. That's why the playstyles SOUND great, but there were not great at all and only did "More harm than good".

Well normally in a Splinter Cell game you wouldn't do a lot of things, but the fact that this specifically can be made to fit into the context of Splinter Cell makes it ok. You can't just look at if there's any precedent for a certain mechanic, you see if there's any way it could fit into the game by adding to the core gameplay. Blacklist did breaching and entering wrong. Not only in terms of stealth but just in terms of overall gameplay. So yes, Ubisfot will overdo stuff.

I'm not the best at getting my point across in an online forum of a video game, that's why I make the videos... because the tone can make a big impact on what you're trying to say.

Just do what helps get the point across.

[EddieTheBunny2]

Well fair enough, but honestly you're one of the most critical of Ubisoft on here. And it's arguable whether it's constructive 100% of the time.

I didn't randomly jump on the forums out of nowhere. I used to give normal tempered and "civil"(if that's what people call it) negative feedback, but they haven't listened for 10 years. I obviously gotta start changing the way I speak to them and since I have, I've gotten noticed.

[zer0netgain]

I'd like co-op to NOT require a 2nd player.

I HATE it when a game creates a whole mechanic where you can't do a mission without another person doing stuff in real time. Especially if you don't want to PAY to be able to play online (e.g., Xbox Live).

So far, Conviction and Blacklist have co-op missions you can "solo" with a second controller. You just have to keep the other character someplace "safe" until you clear a path. In a way, it's an extra challenge because you're doing with one character what's meant to be handled by two. Some are really hard...but doable.

Heck, I don't know how hard it would be, but I'd not mind a co-op where the 2nd character is a BOT that does little more than stay out of the way until you signal it to join you (so you don't have to keep saving its backside). Having whole parts of a game locked out because you don't or can't game online takes away the value of the product.

[Dome500]

I'd like co-op to NOT require a 2nd player.

I HATE it when a game creates a whole mechanic where you can't do a mission without another person doing stuff in real time. Especially if you don't want to PAY to be able to play online (e.g., Xbox Live).

So far, Conviction and Blacklist have co-op missions you can "solo" with a second controller. You just have to keep the other character someplace "safe" until you clear a path. In a way, it's an extra challenge because you're doing with one character what's meant to be handled by two. Some are really hard...but doable.

Heck, I don't know how hard it would be, but I'd not mind a co-op where the 2nd character is a BOT that does little more than stay out of the way until you signal it to join you (so you don't have to keep saving its backside). Having whole parts of a game locked out because you don't or can't game online takes away the value of the product.

Well, to be fair, that was always the case in Splinter Cell. There are certainly points where you have to do a Coop maneuver to get somewhere, but there was never an absolute necessity for a second player to be there all the time.

That being said, I think it would help the mode if there would actually be more teamwork involved and having a second player being a must. I'm not talking about D-Ops here. Deniable Ops did never need a second player, and that IMO is part of what made it such a brilliant idea. But the Coop CAMPAIGN should need a second character if you ask me, because you know, it's a COOP mode, it's supposed to be a 2-player mode.

That being said I definitely agree on the idea that all maps should be playable solo. Which means I think we should have the option to play all maps from the Grim/Kobin Missions AS WELL AS the coop story campaign alone in one out of a few game modes (such as "Hunter", "Intel Theft", "Infiltration" modes). D-Ops in Conviction did not give you the option to do all of them alone if I remember correctly, but it definitely should allow you to do rally all maps you want alone in independent modes.