[DZ] Remove xp/credits/keys penalty for being killed by a Rogue while Neutral | Forums

[MurderrTrain]

I bounced this idea around with my friends. Im a very hard core PVPer in every game i play so the xp loss to me seems small and doesn't really bother me. At the same time i can see how its very frustrating for a casual PVPer to lose xp. Personally i do think it would be a good addition for several reasons
1). No penalty for dieting to rogues means a lot more frighting for rogues (which i would enjoy). For instance when I'm solo and die to a 4 man group i would love to give them some more action by trying to solo them a few times but at most i will give it 1 shot so I'm not throwing xp away. By removing the xp loss i would be happy getting killed all night just to pick up a few kills while solo. This would increase fun for rogue groups as well
2). Those that aren't into PVP or are not very good at it have less frustration
3). The DZ becomes more of a xp/ credit gain for the entire community closing the gear gap and leading to better fights
The only downside is
1) the game has a loss when it come to that risk/ reward feeling. They would need to up how good DZ gear is so that the loss of gear is actually felt so that the feeling of risk/ reward is not lost

All together i do feel it would be a good edition for the entire community as a hole with little at risk for the game.

We need more people with attitudes like this. Almost every thread that suggests less penalties for solo players leads to a benefit for rogues (more solo players venturing in and more action for them)

Unfortunately too many of the hardcore gamers care too much about how other people experience the game. They may come up with absurd reasons why it's not a good idea, but it all comes down to them not wanting those solo players to be able to progress to their level and present them with a challenge for once. Little do they know, if no change is made, solo players will give up on the DZ all together leaving the rogue groups to tip toe around each other because none of them want to engage in a fair fight.

[Peregrin487]

I suggested removal of DZ experience loss months ago in the Suggestions Forum due to its negative progression and griefing issues. Many hard core players scoffed at the idea, basically buying into Massive's sales pitch that the DZ is supposed to be dangerous, anything goes, etc...

Fast forward to the present, and many players have left the game due for multiple reasons, with DZ mentioned as a frequent sore spot. PVP, when properly executed, should never negatively impact non-PVP'ers -- this is why so many other titles go through great lengths to keep keep PVP and PVE environments sandboxed away from each other. Massive decided to ignore this guide line and lump everyone in the same virtual space, using the lure of exclusive blue prints to prop up the Dark Zone's popularity. It was only a matter of time before excessive rogue rewards promoted farming novice players instead of AI. The resulting experience loss as a non-rogue basically extended the required DZ grind to unlock rank 75+ blue prints, often denying lesser geared players access to the weapon blue prints they needed to be more competitive.

Removing the experience loss penalty as a non-rogue would go a long way towards promoting more DZ participation. Losing keys, DZ credits, and loot is more than sufficient punishment for dying in DZ. There is no need to rub additional salt in the proverbial wound.

[Vice_BlaZeD]

People should endlessly hunt rogues with no sense of loss for constantly engaging something stronger than themselves?

So that maybe, eventually, they respawn for that 10th time and get to the rogues when the other 12 people chasing said rogues get there? Then the rogues inevitably die from being purely outnumbered (which the game already makes you a target for every player not in your group).

Some servers you get roaming rogue packs that merge and become the "roaming world boss" to consciously try to avoid/or kill for the challenge/rewards.

Other servers you get 20 people who just want to endlessy hunt the only group of 4 going rogue. So i mean it goes both ways.

This would push it more into outnumbering rogues (potentially 1-4 ppl versus 20-23 ppl) and less into the players weighing options.

I like having to think about whether or not i should attempt revenge or keep my money/xp.

I do agree rogue death penalty could be higher. Pre 1.1 is the only time i've ever second guessed if i should go rogue or not. I actually really liked having to think about my options there.

It does currently stand as a no brainer (to me) to attempt it, when that question of going rogue or not pops in my head.

I think higher xp loss on death as a rogue would yield more balanced results than no xp/cred loss.

As it stands you only die once to said rogue without having a chance to know their intentions and whether or not to avoid them.(either by spawning at another checkpoint and going to a further side of the dz, actively watching your map to avoid marked rogues, or just logging out and back in for a new server).

Using concealment mod pulse and thinking everyone is a threat you don't know is another method to avoid the first death prior to intentions being divulged.

You'd have no real incentive to avoid rogues after that first death, and the server gets stacked against them more than it currently does.

Potential 23 vs 1 is pretty bad as is, and it can happen when you get the right mix of players. You don't see it usually because some players die(whether it's the rogue being chased or not) before everyone wanting to be involved in the hunt arrives.

I've definitely been a part of 16vs4 though. You easily get cut off by some not chasing behind you(like i love doing, breaking off from the chase and estimating where they'll make a turn to get away from those directly behind). Kill sooooo many rogues this method.

Problem seems to be the killing prior to rogue status.

The game stacks rogues against their first victim. (surprise/initiation/preying on trust/unawareness factor)

Game is stacked against rogues after that first victim. (maybe not enough for the best geared...but i mean they are the best geared, think about the low gear ppl that want to try rogue).

Get 1 rogue who is gs 160.
If 1 player comes after him who is GS 204, goooood luck rogue, that'll be tough to live through. Now add 3 of his geared buddies, or two other groups of 4 who want a rogue kill. The odds are very much not in the low gear score rogues favor.

Maybe he's running from a group of players, trying to go north. But ends up running directly into another group who are heading south (to him because he's on the map marked as a target).
The rogue doesn't get a player indicator so he knows to avoid running into that other group.

So that balance needs to be considered with the rogue penalty effecting low gear score casual players trying out a mechanic of this game (yes this is a game and people should have incentive to explore every mechanic of it).

Just my opinion

Tl:dr

Increase rogue death penatly a bit(not where it was but higher)

Server experiences vary and are determined by the players populating it (ie. 1 server has roaming rogue packs killing all neutrals, another might have roaming "police" packs destroying and hunting every rogue they see).

No xp loss/credit loss would stack the servers against rogues more than currently is allowed/incentivized.(Dynamically player dependant on going after the bounty for progress while risking what they have VS. keeping what they have now safer(in a relative sense)while farming NPCs for progress).
♡

[Kyosji]

I understand that as a Rogue player, you don't want to loose what you already have.

But you already have rewards by going Rogue and managing to get a kill : the items of your victim and xp/credits if your survive the timer.
I consider it to be a nice reward already. Rewards could be upped a bit for compensation, but i already stated this in the OP :-)

You must not go rogue often. First off, the items players drop are rarely worth picking up. If it's 163 I don't want it. If it's armor, I don't want it. Also, to complete a manhunt, I get ~3-4k credits and roughly a quarter of a level. We get next to nothing credit wise because we pick up credits off of dead players. Take that away from us, and we wont want to rogue for a quarter of a level and 3-4k credits.

When we die in a manhunt, I lose roughly 3/4 of a level. That's massive I also lose DZ credits, although I never pay attention to how many.

[The_VengeanceXD]

You must not go rogue often. First off, the items players drop are rarely worth picking up. If it's 163 I don't want it. If it's armor, I don't want it. Also, to complete a manhunt, I get ~3-4k credits and roughly a quarter of a level. We get next to nothing credit wise because we pick up credits off of dead players. Take that away from us, and we wont want to rogue for a quarter of a level and 3-4k credits.

When we die in a manhunt, I lose roughly 3/4 of a level. That's massive I also lose DZ credits, although I never pay attention to how many.

When I die during a manhunt I lose like 12-15k dz credits and almost 20k dzxp. I'm dz rank 87 and I'm pretty sure your dz rank plays a role in dictating your losses if you get killed

[Fuz Fragstealer]

To the team grinder, the current drops in DZ are mostly just stuff to deconstruct. Update 1.1 made Gold the new Purple.
But - for a casual solo player, the Gold loot in DZ can be real upgrades.

Update 1.2 promises to significantly boost the value of the DZ drops. It appears to still leave the ganking gear/xp/cash loss as a problem for the casual player - if you still will drop your gear when being killed by a rogue.

It means these players are very likely to be abandoning the game,
and in the long run, that will be a loss for us all.

[Fastford58]

Massive's response to this poll:

We hear you and are listening! From now on, if you die as a neutral player to a rogue, you will automatically be bumped back to DZ level 0! You love the grind, right! We knew you did! AREN'T YOU THANKFUL?!

Also, as a rogue, you now get a base 10x bonus for dz keys, experience, and funds! Our new detection software will award you with bonuses for the following actions:

1. If you kill a player with 30 less gear score than you and clap over their corpse you get an entire dz rank up! 2 ranks if you ganked them with explosive rounds! And 100 minutes of invincibility if you kill a gs 161-180 solo player while in a 4 man group with average gearscore of 210! Isn't it great?!

2. Our voice detection software allows us to detect the pitch of your voice. The higher the pitch, the more powerful you become! Gain 100% in all skills if the software determines you are 12 years old with no parental input! alternately, our scent detection software can smell a sweaty neckbeard a mile away. We got you fam. 100% skill bonus if you are an adult at the same age mentality as the 12 year old. Weeeeeeee!

3. Warm up those racial and homophobic slurs, everyone! Ganking a player while launching insults that would make a klan member blush will net you exclusive GS 300 weapons with new skills!

New skills:

Socially inept - Player becomes invisible to all players! You are invisible in real life, anyways, right?

Unemployable - Yeah, you don't work well in a social, team environment. We know. As a solo player, all damage out put is increased by 100% and incoming damage is decreased by 100%. People will hate you and shun you, but hey, see above.

Self Loathing - Every kill you get while rogue bolster a new in game stat: Perceived ability! Perceived ability builds up as you gank players who had no chance to begin with. It gives you tags under your name as you rank up such as : Master Gamer, Super God, and Division King. You can then go to the official Ubisoft Division forums and brag about your skill while crapping on those who just can't seem to get ahead!

Yes. Awesome! See you in game agents, and good luck.

[Neumeusis]

People should endlessly hunt rogues with no sense of loss for constantly engaging something stronger than themselves?

So that maybe, eventually, they respawn for that 10th time and get to the rogues when the other 12 people chasing said rogues get there? Then the rogues inevitably die from being purely outnumbered (which the game already makes you a target for every player not in your group).

Some servers you get roaming rogue packs that merge and become the "roaming world boss" to consciously try to avoid/or kill for the challenge/rewards.

Other servers you get 20 people who just want to endlessy hunt the only group of 4 going rogue. So i mean it goes both ways.

This would push it more into outnumbering rogues (potentially 1-4 ppl versus 20-23 ppl) and less into the players weighing options.

I like having to think about whether or not i should attempt revenge or keep my money/xp.

I do agree rogue death penalty could be higher. Pre 1.1 is the only time i've ever second guessed if i should go rogue or not. I actually really liked having to think about my options there.

It does currently stand as a no brainer (to me) to attempt it, when that question of going rogue or not pops in my head.

I think higher xp loss on death as a rogue would yield more balanced results than no xp/cred loss.

As it stands you only die once to said rogue without having a chance to know their intentions and whether or not to avoid them.(either by spawning at another checkpoint and going to a further side of the dz, actively watching your map to avoid marked rogues, or just logging out and back in for a new server).

Using concealment mod pulse and thinking everyone is a threat you don't know is another method to avoid the first death prior to intentions being divulged.

You'd have no real incentive to avoid rogues after that first death, and the server gets stacked against them more than it currently does.

Potential 23 vs 1 is pretty bad as is, and it can happen when you get the right mix of players. You don't see it usually because some players die(whether it's the rogue being chased or not) before everyone wanting to be involved in the hunt arrives.

I've definitely been a part of 16vs4 though. You easily get cut off by some not chasing behind you(like i love doing, breaking off from the chase and estimating where they'll make a turn to get away from those directly behind). Kill sooooo many rogues this method.

Problem seems to be the killing prior to rogue status.

The game stacks rogues against their first victim. (surprise/initiation/preying on trust/unawareness factor)

Game is stacked against rogues after that first victim. (maybe not enough for the best geared...but i mean they are the best geared, think about the low gear ppl that want to try rogue).

Get 1 rogue who is gs 160.
If 1 player comes after him who is GS 204, goooood luck rogue, that'll be tough to live through. Now add 3 of his geared buddies, or two other groups of 4 who want a rogue kill. The odds are very much not in the low gear score rogues favor.

Maybe he's running from a group of players, trying to go north. But ends up running directly into another group who are heading south (to him because he's on the map marked as a target).
The rogue doesn't get a player indicator so he knows to avoid running into that other group.

So that balance needs to be considered with the rogue penalty effecting low gear score casual players trying out a mechanic of this game (yes this is a game and people should have incentive to explore every mechanic of it).

Just my opinion

Tl:dr

Increase rogue death penatly a bit(not where it was but higher)

Server experiences vary and are determined by the players populating it (ie. 1 server has roaming rogue packs killing all neutrals, another might have roaming "police" packs destroying and hunting every rogue they see).

No xp loss/credit loss would stack the servers against rogues more than currently is allowed/incentivized.(Dynamically player dependant on going after the bounty for progress while risking what they have VS. keeping what they have now safer(in a relative sense)while farming NPCs for progress).
♡

I do not go Rogue often, but i try to hunt Rogues when i see them. and i can say one thing : most of the time they are wayy better geared than their prey.
I often saw Rogues mowing groups of 2-3 players, even when hunted by the said players.

Gear is a huge part of the system, and serial Rogues are specifically geared to kill players, while the PvE people are geared to kill NPCs.
So even having 4-5-6 player chasing a Rogue is often not enough to stop them, especially if they are not coordianted (which is close to always the case).

I don't think upping the penalty for going Rogue to be a good solution :
I would prefer to see Rogues often and have the possibility to join the chase than seeing one Rogue every blue moon and leaving him alone because i know that if i approach him i'll loose more than i will ever get.

[Neumeusis]

You must not go rogue often. First off, the items players drop are rarely worth picking up. If it's 163 I don't want it. If it's armor, I don't want it. Also, to complete a manhunt, I get ~3-4k credits and roughly a quarter of a level. We get next to nothing credit wise because we pick up credits off of dead players. Take that away from us, and we wont want to rogue for a quarter of a level and 3-4k credits.

When we die in a manhunt, I lose roughly 3/4 of a level. That's massive I also lose DZ credits, although I never pay attention to how many.

You seems to be geared nicely enough to do not care about the drops. Good for you. But the people extracting care about the drops. A lot in fact, or they wouldn't bother to extract.
I have yet to see a Rogue to not pick the golden loot that falls from one of it's victim. They always do so. Maybe you're an exception, but the others certainly do so.
One man's trash can be the other's gold. Think about the others :-) And Neutrals are loosing this precious loot On TOP of XP, credits and keys.

Also, do not forget that the initial goal of Rogues is to kill to steal loot.
The meta changed because the blueprints are the only reliable way to get GS204 weapons, and to get them you need credits and xp. Thus the very unhealthy trend to farm players.
The goal of this thread is to try to minimize the effects on Neutrals while not taking too much from Rogues.
I feel this proposition isn't too bad in this aspect.

And i don't like repeating myself, but it is written in the OP that the rewards for clearing a Timer should be improuved as a compensation. More credits and keys.

So i guess we agree ?

[dnrobs]

I think everything is fine... as far as losing exp while hunting rogues, that is.

There's no point in leveling up pass 75 because there isn't anything useful for 99's - other than a self accomplishment to yourself. The Valkyrie just sucks. If they up'd the damage, I think it would par with other SMG's.

You think the blueprints won't be lvl 99 soon?
It went up 40 levels in one patch,could be dz 150 by summer.