Senior Member
My biggest criticism ins't against those who asked for less severe Rogue penalties, believe it or not?
My biggest gripe is the devs not being confident enough to NOT listen to them, ironically.
The Division was marketed as a CO-OP / Single Player / PVE centered game with the option to go PVP.
Gues who showed up in droves in the Betas, and at launch?
The PVE crowd. I am one of them.
So, when your expected crowd shows up with the admission fee of $300 million dollars... Why on God's green Earth did they decide to go the opposite direction and alienate / lose the majority player base in favor of the minority player base?
Nobody will ever know for sure, but my theory is Massive didn't count on players helping each other like they did in the early days and this was going to inevitably lead to the quick(er) realization... "There is no end-game"... And more importantly, they didn't want UBISoft finding this out either, especially after gifting them the biggest money making IP in the history of the company. So, I believe they lowered Rogue penalties to make the other players each other's end-game content. It's cheap, it's easy to deploy and it has a resource that never runs out (in theory): Players. Especially in the early stages where the PC version alone had 800K on during the launch.
It's always baffled me why they kept saying "The DZ was not working as intended" when it was full of people grinding out the mobs and leveling up together. Sure, you had a few Rogues here and there, but that's the point. The majority PVE / SP players were all working cooperatively and you could barely move in the DZ Safe Houses. I have GOOD memories of the pre-1.1 DZ, and was lucky enough to have RNG smile on me and got some good weapon drops I would never have been able to get with the current setup. This is the sad part because those days are long gone, never to return... But the point is, it didn't have to be this way, IMHO.
I believe Massive panicked when they realized the player base was not what they expected... Which is ironic and further supports the idea they have no clue what they are doing, but... Instead of adjusting to the audience they already had they decided to turn the players against each other to cover up the game is basically an unfinished Beta with little content, but to also counter the insane RNG at the same time, possibly? If you have players robbing from each other, it's very hard to pinpoint what players are / are not getting versus having to take a hard look at how poor the loot system was (is)... Which is what they ended up having to do anyway, yet they still lost 98% of the original player base in the process.
This is relevant to this discussion because IF any of what I proposed is even remotely true, it means this game will never be what it can be because the developers lack the INSIGHT to admit they were (are) afraid of things out of their control, and instead of fighting it (Fight or Flight), embrace who did show up at launch and continue on with content and adjustments that suit the majority PVE audience and not the minority PVP audience. Now, it is too late. There may be more PVE content coming, but it won't be enough, IMO. The damage has been done and coupled with the exploits and hacking on PC, the game has lost all hope of it ever becoming appealing, let alone balanced in any sense of the word.
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At the beginning of my post I clearly stated that I am most interested in hardcore PVE content. I am not a big PVP person. I enjoy it as a change of pace, but as I said, I'm admittedly not even that good at it and more often than not, I lose my fights in the DZ. I am one of the RARE (in this game it's rare at least) non PVP people who try to support the PVP side of the games I play just as much as the stuff I care most about (raids). I do this because I understand the game needs to cater to both sides equally.Originally Posted by JiuJitsuMMA Go to original post
Having said that, I enjoy the rogue system immensely. I love it. Even if I don't win most of my battles, the amazing tension it brings to farming in the DZ is awesome. Being a PVE focused player, I can stroll in there and rank up my PVP levels without ever having to fight anyone. And if I occasionally do want to get in a fight, the option is there. There could not be a better system for a person who is not a hardcore PVP player.
EDIT: This is why I can't understand why it's such a big deal to those of you complaining about it in the forums. If someone like me who is very average at PVP can manage to get all the way to rank 80 DZ, why can't you all just man up, go in there and get your exp like the rest of us and avoid other players. The vast majority of the people in there are just like you and often friendly and willing to work together if you talk to them and offer to share kills, etc. You guys talk like from the moment you walk in every player on the server is coming after you and looking to stab you in the back. This is just not true.
I feel like everyone here just refuses to even give it a chance because you're afraid of the concept. You've seen too many youtube videos, heard too many stories or had one bad experience early on and stopped going in assuming that's how it is the entire time you're in there.
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I'm DZ rank 77 & Gear score 217 to 201 depending on what my loadout for the day is, --You & I can handle the DZ since we have 204 GS Augs, Vectors, gear, M1A & Sentry sets to rock others ..Originally Posted by AgentZero.VaX Go to original post
but the vast majority of people
(especially newbies & those who left or are leaving because it's NOT an enjoyable experience) are leaving in frustration over lossing their time (XP & DZ credits) after being ganked or griefed
NO, other players especially casuals do NOT a have choice if they don't want to be PKed or PvP because others in the DZ can shoot, gank, & grief them regardless of choice at anytime especially those with lower rank --regardless if they want to or not to PvP or not
Actually, higher ranks are REWARDED for non-consensual PvP by ganking, team-killing & griefing other players, especially lower rank/lower geared players
There could not be a better system for gankers & griefers for higher geared/ranked players to farm lower geared/lower ranked players --especially if you're level 75-80+ w/ 204 Aug & M1A blueprints steam rolling 161+ gs casual players ..
but
while it gets your jollies off (testosterone & dopamine rises from winning competitions according to blood tests in biochemical studies of winning),
it
causes those casuals to leave in frustration because they lose their time (no reward, they are going backwards in progression over their limited time play period)
because a BETTER PvP system allows those who want to PvP only with others who also want to PvP (Team/Faction systems)
or
having a system those who don't want to opt out of PvP via a Flag Off or On switch
If you still don't understand as you posted since you're a hardcore player, you may have missed this from another poster:
Originally Posted by RNGesusH8tsU
They don't have to remove PVP....
Also, the thing that has been brought up time and time again and needs to be brought up one more is Rogues have the element of surprise and this is what wins fights 99.9% of the time
. Even if they are going against an equally geared opponent, the equally geared opponent never has time to react, or know a fight is coming.
On top of this, the loss of XP, DZ Rank --
even if it means only access to blue prints -- And credits (used to buy those blueprints) further alienates players who stand no chance and become human farming material for the overpowered Rogues.
Players are not afraid of other players in the DZ.
Players are afraid of losing TIME in the DZ.
People choose to invest their time in games to have fun. If they aren't having fun, they will quit playing... As evidenced by the mass exodus we've seen with this game over the last two months.
Yes, some of that is because there is nothing left to do for PVE (mostly PVE) players,
but
the reality is most people wouldn't mind the DZ if they didn't lose TIME when they went in there
since
time becomes a commodity as you get older and have more responsibilities that limit your game time.
Also, some of the players you have the unfortunate experience to meet in the DZ are in fact what amount to real life sociopaths and angry kids "raging" against the world.
These are the punks who kill you, call you racist and homophobic names and do jumping jacks over your body... When you had nothing of value for them to loot.
Mature people will not tolerate this kind of immature behavior and will just leave like the vast majority have.
I logged in on the PS4 today around 6:00 PM EST (3:00 PM PST), and there was literally ONE player in one of the LZ safe houses. ONE. I went to a couple of others (leveling an alt) and did not see anybody else for the entire hour I was in-game.
This is Saturday, where gamers are more likely have free time to game versus during the week.
The game is dying even on consoles regardless of what the fanboys like to parrot.
The point is while the game itself is a mess on so many levels... Literally and figuratively...
There comes a point where all of these problems come to a head (in the DZ) as I stated in my last post. Players become fed up with all of the problems and just leave the game.
A big part of this is the DZ in its current form and this is one of those things that needs to change SOMEHOW,
or
else there will not be anybody left for the first DLC in June.
Member
"It's always baffled me why they kept saying "The DZ was not working as intended"Originally Posted by RNGesusH8tsU Go to original post
when
it was full of people grinding out the mobs and leveling up together. " --
ya, I had the same thoughts when I read that ..
if the developers intended for the PvP as end-game like Destiny to keep players busy --what they didin't count on was the majority of players leaving from being ganked & griefed
since
the poll on here as well as
exit polls
from previous multiplayer shooters
&
MMO-RPGs
have the SAME results
(ie,
SAME results of 80%-90% want some form of consensual PvP like PvP-off flag or Faction system, with a minority but vocal 10%-20% (current at 13%) who want the Free-For-All that loves the ability to gank & grief) ..
Human psychology
&
market results/demographics holds true here as well as in the larger shooter, RPG, MMO democraphics population base
If they really want PvP to be end-game like Call of Duty or Battlefield, they have to have to do what they do
&
have auto-balanced Team/Faction
vs.
Team/Faction Deathmatch
(you're automattically assigned a Faction
-Agent or Rogue are just cosmetic displays -all opposite team factions appear as rogue to you)
Otherwise, the current system of rewarding ganking & griefing while punishing players for PvP deaths w/ XP, loot loss will drive most casual players away like they did in previous such multiplayer games, MMO-RPG types & shooters games
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Senior Member
They're gone.Originally Posted by JiuJitsuMMA Go to original post
This is not hyperbole. This is statistical fact backed up by various external and verified sources e.g. steam charts, game rankings on console, etc.
The saddest part is The Division is now infamous instead of famous.
I was in a big name streamer's channel, and somebody in chat asked him if he was going to play TD any time soon and he answered with an emphatic "Noooooooo". Others in the chat then wrote "Division = Trash" and other "flattering" remarks.
That's gotta hurt the devs (if they know) because despite what others believe, they are still human and are probably in way over their heads at this point. This could be a career-ending game for them, but we're getting OT. The point is TD is not even respected among hardcore gamers... The ones who watch Twitch, YT, etc. I can't blame them. On the other hand, nobody sets out and make a bad product, but every single one of Massive's decisions has been to alienate the PVE crowd while simultaneously promoting the PVP crowd... Which is fine IF this were real PVP and not PK. It's not.
I would love to Rouge Hunt, or go Rouge just for the experience, but I don't have the gear to do it... Because of RNG. This is why a vast majority of casuals physically cannot compete when they go into the DZ. It's not just because they don't play 24/7, like some of these kids do. It's the fact RNG smiled on some of these kids, gave them early 204 GS weapons and gear, (of they glitched to get it) and with all the nerfs in 1.1., casuals can't catch up no matter how hard they try and eventually don't want to catch up, either. The latter is what should concern Massive more than anything, but at this point there is nothing anybody except them can do.
I try to be positive... Or at least, give people the benefit of the doubt... But past actions have proven Massive doesn't know what the Hell they are doing, apparently?
This is not being mean. This is evaluating their decisions objectively based on "the good of the game and it's player base" and every single one of their decisions up until this point has done nothing but alienate and divide the player base while also making the game LESS fun than when it launched. That is what baffles me and others probably more than how we got here.... The "why" did they make those decisions I asked in my previous post. It does matter because the past often dictates the future and is why many of us don't have faith in 1.2 at all, nor the upcoming DLC even if it is PVE oriented.
DLC is just expansions, additions to the base game. They don't redesign the base game which TD is in desperate need of in my and many others opinions...
Member
I suspect the Steamcharts average players for this month will be 8-9k (down from 16k the month previous). I have been watching closely and the 24 hr lows are getting really low (like 6k) and the highs are usually around 13k....so a 9.5k-ish average.
I REALLY want this game to be fixed. I still play the dailies and run DZ a little bit here and there, but nothing much until it is fixed or we at least know what is coming down the pipe.
Member
I've played I think every single FFA PVP MMO type game that has come out, even Shadowbane which was an old Ubisoft MMO. Boy I loved Shadowbane that game was awesome but plagued by many bugs and technical issues. Anyway with that said this game would've been better as FFA pvp game without he rogue system. This system just lets griefers hide behind a protection system of sorts. They really need to tweak the rogue system in some way. Or hell just abolish it completely, let everyone kill one another freely but remove the Money, and XP loss penalty. Hell there wasn't even any XP loss in Shadowbane, why its even on here is beyond me.
Member
Ya, removing the XP/currency penalty from PvPing/PKing would encourage more to PvP (that's why all the succesful MMOs now like Guild Wars series, Warcraft, Blade & Soul, TERA, etc) have NO XP nor currency loss from itOriginally Posted by Folkb Go to original post
It's the loss in time & progression that frustrates people they're killed from ganking/griefing..
imagine if you loss XP & currency from each PvP death in Call of Duty, Battlefield, Destiny, Halo, etc
--most casual players would leave..
that's why ALL succesful companies removed XP/currency penalties from PvP & prevent team-killing, ganking, & griefing
