DEVELOPERS, Read This!: PvP & PvE statistics, TeamKilling & Learning from History | Forums

[JiuJitsuMMA]

Update: What are your thoughts? Let Developers know your thoughts here
& also VOTE Poll here - http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...s-Faction-Flag -- since maybe actual numbers may help sway them

Because of related excellent Critical Discussion on this Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision...ions_userbase/ ,
I added historical & statistical data below that backs it up:The ongoing results of this thread with good feedback is that PvP Factions system
(such as choose Agent or Rogue upon entering DZ, can only switch outside the DZ- you would STILL have Manhunts
&
server wide alerts for killing opposing factions so you would still have tension & drama & 'search destroy kill teams')
used
in other successful
MMO-RPG type games would solve alot of the constant 'toxic' complaints
of
griefing, ganking,
&
betrayal that drives most players away (one of the main reasons such 'Free-For-All' PvP servers dwindle down to a few thousand & die out but Factions vs Factions PvP are more successful .
==

As a software developer who loves The Division, Borderlands, GuildWars, Destiny, Diablo-type games, (and enjoy Factions PvP areas)
if
you do the industry research in MMOs, you'll find that about 80% to 90% of players choose to play on PvE servers
while
10% to 20% of players choose to play on PvP-only Free-for-All servers while
games w/optional PvP limited only to Teams/Factions (with no backstabbing, team-killing) servers such as World of Warcraft, StarWar Old Republic having a 2:1 ratio of 66% choosing PvE to 33% choosing Factions-only PvP ..
this
statistic holds true for every MMO game from Everquest (PvP Free-for-All) to Asheron's Call (PvP Free-for-All) to
World of Warcraft (PvP-Factions only), TERA (PvP-Factions only), Blade & Soul (Factions-Only), Star Wars Old Republic (PvP-Factions only) etc .

DarkZone's Free-for-All PvP is a throwback to the first Free-for-All PvP games that also saw 90% drops in playerbase,
which
fits the lore background story of betrayal/Rogue but if the griefing/bacstabbing drives away 80%-90% of the playerbase except the hardcore, it does't do any good & doesn't pay the bills for more updates, DLC, & sequels, does it?

Like The Division's Darkzone's Free-for-all PvP, UbiSoft's first MMO Shadowbane had Free-for-All PvP .. so did DarkFall, Mortal Online, Ultima Online, etc (but they all died out/dwindled to under 100,000 total population w/ just 1,000-3000 playing a day, sold off to other companies or run on private servers by diehard fans)

According to exit surveys of players in similar MMO-RPG games, one of the primary reasons people left were their frustration arsing from being ganked & griefed by other players (which is why the most successful game companies developed Factions vs. Factions & zero XP or money lost upon death from other players

MMO/RPG-type games PvP can be SUCCESSFULL, but only with
Factions vs Factions (such as WoW, StarWars Old Republic, Guild Wars, Blade & Soul, etc -you would still have manhunts from opposing factions)
or
optional flags(choose Agent or Rogue each time before entering DZ)
instead
of the Free-for-all in the DarkZone
that's a throwback to the first MMOs that have died out or dropped below 100,000 players

Note TheDivision experienced a 90% drop in players --and
industry statistics
show
that less than about 5% of players even read or post on the forums so the forums ARE NOT THE REASON why players stopped playing TheDivsion as moderator DigitalHitMan erroneously
wrote that the toxicity in the forums is
"The biggest problem right now is the community toxicity, the haves and have-not's. People are upset because some players who, may or may not have, dedicated the time to rank up and grind out gear pre-patch are overbearing to those who dont have the time to spare." ---NOT TRUE
when
even less than 5% of the players read nor post in the forums

One of the real reasons 90% of players quit The Division is the math mentioned above & explained below:

Even in competitive sports games, there is no betrayal nor backstabbing --ie, someone on your same football/soccer, basketball team can't go 'rogue' & can't tackle you nor start stealing the ball & scoring points for the other side

MMOs that were mandatory PvP-Free-for-All like Shadowbane, Darkfall, Everquest PvP-servers & Asheron's PvP-servers etc died out or dwindled to tiny populations because not enough players in a niche market (the 10%-20% of players that like Free-For-All PvP are dwarfed by the 80%-90% that seek PvE)
--this
is one of the reasons why The Division is losing 80%-90% of it's playerbase
(besides the bugs
&
lack of post-30 content
&
insufficient loot/rewards that don't give players a good sense of reward)

When the first PvP games came out such as BattleField, Quake, Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, etc , players on the same team could kill each other & 'grief', backstab, & betray (throw grenades, shoot team-mates in the back,etc)
--this lead to such an uproar
that the games quickly added a flag that made killing team-mates impossible

Is this the problem with The Division because the act of betrayal/team-killing (which was depicted as a selling-point in The Divison trailer) adds tension & drama to the game?
but
in practice, most players hate it when they are
stabbed in the back by someone they thought was a team-mate or neutral player ..
or
'ganked' or 'griefed' & lose xp & items
--in sports, imagine how popular a game would be if someone on the same team goes 'rogue' in your football league could tackle you, steal the ball & score points for the enemy team?

Constant threads everyday on the official forums like this
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-option-for-DZ
&
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-a-PVE-DZ-only!
&
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...s-wrap-this-up
&
[url]http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1449122-Just-no-point-this-morning/page5/url]
&
on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision...ions_userbase/
&
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision...ing_to_lvl_75/ is common to such Free-for-All PvP games MMO-RPGs
-and
the rule in customer service/marketing is that each complaint represents much more because
most
people don't take time to write a complaint letter --they just never buy from the business again & tell their friends not to

but to PvP players,
that's just being 'carebear' (but statistics show that most of the PvE players actually play equalized
PvP games such as Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, etc
--they just prefer a
'fair fight' as a true test of skill instead of mostly gear & backstabbing)

Thus, MMOs added OPTIONAL PvP in factions/battlegrounds only PvP such
special arenas/battlegrounds,
Realm vs Realm (Horde vs. Alliance in WoW, etc) or Factions/Guild vs. Guild or switchable PvP-on/off flags
(such as Blade & Soul's PvP choice by donning different faction costumes)
with
easily identifiable enemy factions so that there can be no team-killing & enemy factions are easily identified so that they can't be backstabbed

The DarkZone is different in that it is a PvP-free-for-all area but there's no recognizable player enemy faction until AFTER they go 'rogue' & shoot/kill you in a few seconds

Solutions from what previous successful MMOs (Guild Wars, Warcraft, Everquest, etc) came up with:

1) PvP flag that can be turned on or off before entering the battleground (ie choose Agent or Rogue factions, can only switch outside the DZ) .. or another type of swtich - those who have it turned on can kill or be killed by other players .. those who have it turned off can't kill nor kill other players..
statistically,
80%-90% of people will keep their PvP flag turned off most of the time or only 10%-20% of the playerbase will enter a PvP area if they can be killed by other players

2) PvP battlegrounds with enemy factions/teams/guilds: You choose a team/faction/guild before joing the battleground --every same faction/guild member you see is an ally
&
every opposite faction you see is an enemy --no backstabbing --
only enemy factions/guilds can kill you & you can only kill enemy factions/guilds -
-this
is what the most successful games do..
from Call of Duty to Halo to Destiny, World of Warcraft,
Call of Duty, Battlefield,
TERA, etc -
-there
is no faction/team-killing & you can't leave your faction/team to kill them either (switching factions can only be done outside the battleground or it takes several minutes to change where you can't do anything so as to prevent betrayal-backstabbing) ..

With Factions/teams/guilds, you can still have the experience/thrill of 'being in enemy lines & being hunted/chased by superior numbers or huge battles' or 1 vs 1 .. as
well as being helped by & helping same Faction players..
what
you won't
have is the guessing game of 'is that player going to shoot me in the back' or should I play the safer option & shoot him first?
(this
actually encourages distrust, anti-social toxic behavior such as betrayal, backstabbing, & ganking actually as players who helped or revived another player get shot
&
killed by people they helped as posters have said.. no one wants to be backstabbed/ganked or griefed either but all those behaviors are rewarded in DarkZone)
---
UPDATE:

For those who asked for sources, this was my post on page 3 w/ sources (sorry I didn't include them in original post because it was getting too long & internet traffic/click-thru studies show less than 5%-10% even click/read links to other sites anyways -if you ever run a website, you'll see such low click-thru rates to confirm it)

Games that do PvP 'right' have Factions vs. Factions:

Unlike the Division's Free-for-All Darkzone,
World of Warcraft also only has Factions vs. Factions PvP --on it's PvE servers, only in Battlegrounds/arena areas ..

on WoW PvP servers, PvP is on only in 'contested' areas & battlegrounds areas but any threat is is clearly marked as enemy faction
unlike
the Division's Dark Zone FFA (so WoW has no backstabbing, betrayal or ganking from same factions) ..
even
with this 'more fair' option, the PvE servers outnumber PvP by 2:1
Source: http://www.warcraftrealms.com/quickstats.php
&
https://realmpop.com/us.html

Unlike the Division's Darkzone Free-For-All PvP, StarWars The Old Republic MMO also only allows Factions vs Factions PvP on it's PvP servers & only in open-areas & warzones & enemy players are clearly marked as enemy factions (no backstabbing, betrayal or ganking from same faction) --
and even
limited to that, PvE servers outnumber PvP servers by 2:1 (PvE servers still have warzones for Faction vs. Faction battles)
Source: http://www.torstatus.net/

Other games such as Guild Wars 1 & 2, Blade & Soul, etc that have millions of players don't have separate PvP servers because they have only PvE servers with optional PvP in Factions vs Factions, arenas, battlegrounds, etc --there is no Free-for-All in PvE environments

I think the developers like the selling point of the added tension of betrayal & PKing
..but
that's catering to the 10%-20% PvP Free-for-All market
.. is
that enough for The Division to thrive or just survive?

I hope so
==
for the 'less than 5% of players post or read the forums' statistic, the number of views, members & posters is displayed on the forums --which is several thousand, which is less than 5% (more like 1%) of the 5-6 million players that bought the game (a software developer for Asheron's Call first pointed this out years ago & holds true for almost all games)

there were/are games that were like the Free-for-All PvP DarkZone in PvE areas with where you could be killed
by
anyone at anytime outside of safezones on their PvP-servers such
as
Everquest had about 24+ PvE servers ..

but only 4 servers were PvP-servers that were Free-for-All
--and
those
4 were combined later into just 1 PvP server because they saw
MASSIVE population drops over time

(currently, there are about 23+ PvE servers but just 1 PvP server)

..source http://strategywiki.org/wiki/EverQuest/Servers ..it's down to under 100,000 players total with only 1 out of 23 servers being Free-for-All PvP server

Asheron's Call/Everquest developers have said in the forums each server("cluster") supports about 5,000 people maximum.

http://treestats.net/player_counts/ - Asheron's Call player populations by server show Free-For-All PvP players are only ~10% of the population (Darktide being the one free-for-all PvP server, 8 PvE servers)

Asheron's Call also had Free-for-All PvP servers where you could be killed by anyone at anytime (like the Darkzone) but with no safe zones. I played Asheron's extensively (no longer online) started off with about 20 PvE servers, about 4 PvP servers..
which
dwindled down to 8 PvE servers & 1 PvP server before I left (no longer online --I can't find the articles on the server population anymore (100,000+ players) but you could see the number of PvE & PvP servers everytime you logged in
..and it was always about a 5 to 8 PvE servers to 1 or 2 PvP servers ratio
.. it's dead
like Shadowbane, Darkfall, Dark Age Camelot Free-for-All, etc that have less than 1,000 to 3,000 playing

==

Update 2: many good discussions/posts in the later pages so here's a good highlight:

The ongoing Poll results here have the same findings as previous exit polls & surveys from other MMO-RPGs
&
show the majority (80% to 90% want Factions or PvP flag switch to prevent ganking, griefing) echo
one the best posts from related thread Statistics-History & why the majority here want a change for the better:

They don't have to remove PVP....

Also, the thing that has been brought up time and time again and needs to be brought up one more is Rogues have the element of surprise and this is what wins fights 99.9% of the time

. Even if they are going against an equally geared opponent, the equally geared opponent never has time to react, or know a fight is coming.

On top of this, the loss of XP, DZ Rank --
even if it means only access to blue prints -- And credits (used to buy those blueprints) further alienates players who stand no chance and become human farming material for the overpowered Rogues.

Players are not afraid of other players in the DZ.

Players are afraid of losing TIME in the DZ.

People choose to invest their time in games to have fun. If they aren't having fun, they will quit playing... As evidenced by the mass exodus we've seen with this game over the last two months.

Yes, some of that is because there is nothing left to do for PVE (mostly PVE) players,
but
the reality is most people wouldn't mind the DZ if they didn't lose TIME when they went in there
since
time becomes a commodity as you get older and have more responsibilities that limit your game time.

Also, some of the players you have the unfortunate experience to meet in the DZ are in fact what amount to real life sociopaths and angry kids "raging" against the world.

These are the punks who kill you, call you racist and homophobic names and do jumping jacks over your body... When you had nothing of value for them to loot.

Mature people will not tolerate this kind of immature behavior and will just leave like the vast majority have.

I logged in on the PS4 today around 6:00 PM EST (3:00 PM PST), and there was literally ONE player in one of the LZ safe houses. ONE. I went to a couple of others (leveling an alt) and did not see anybody else for the entire hour I was in-game.

This is Saturday, where gamers are more likely have free time to game versus during the week.

The game is dying even on consoles regardless of what the fanboys like to parrot.

The point is while the game itself is a mess on so many levels... Literally and figuratively...

There comes a point where all of these problems come to a head (in the DZ) as I stated in my last post. Players become fed up with all of the problems and just leave the game.

A big part of this is the DZ in its current form and this is one of those things that needs to change SOMEHOW,
or
else there will not be anybody left for the first DLC in June.

[mattrickl06]

+1, its currently with Ubisoft to prioritise and decide the fate of their playerbase / game

[MarcusK99]

" but statistics show that most of the PvE players actually play equalized PvP games such as Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, etc --they just prefer a 'fair fight' "

Yup, that's me.

[theonlyway]

This game is not an MMO. It does not have the scale of an MMO. It's current scale is maybe 10% to 20% of any of the above MMOs you mentioned (And that's being incredibly generous). It's a loot orientated third person shooter role playing game (Exact same formula as Diablo 3 but with a different player perspective), there is nothing massive about The Division and trying to apply MMO stats to this type of game is pointless.

[sandpants]

Always enjoy these statistics along with their hastily generalized conclusions...

[BeardMagic253]

This game is not an MMO. It does not have the scale of an MMO. It's current scale is maybe 10% to 20% of any of the above MMOs you mentioned (And that's being incredibly generous). It's a loot orientated third person shooter role playing game (Exact same formula as Diablo 3 but with a different player perspective), there is nothing massive about The Division and trying to apply MMO stats to this type of game is pointless.

MMO refers to Massive Multiplayer Online game. This game qualifies as that, as there are more than just 8 people in an instanced server of the Dark Zone which is centralized. So yes, it is an MMO. It is not necessarily an RPG however, which is along the lines of which you are referencing when saying MMO. Just because you can't clearly see it being an RPG, doesn't mean the MMO portion doesn't apply.

[SCE_Hapsmo]

"MMOs that were mandatory PvP-only like Dark Age of Camelot died out because not enough players (the 10%-20% of players that like PvP are dwarfed by the 80%-90% that seek PvE) "

Sorry mate, plenty of PvE in that game. Devs killed that one with changes people didn't like, or asked for. Same goes for SWG Lord rest its soul.

[JiuJitsuMMA]

Psychology & game statistics show that about 80% to 90% of humans prefer cooperation & team-building games when there are enough rewards for everyone & shared .. when there is not enough rewards ('winner take all'), then players & humans will compete & fight each other over it in a fair fight
--but most players hate it when a team-mate betrays them or if they're stabbed in the back (ie, 'rogue's shooting them while they are busy shooting NPCs or already weakened from just fighting NPCs)
--and
lose experience & gear over it

Unfortunately, such 'ganking' & 'griefing' is a primary reason why many people leave such games

[JiuJitsuMMA]

Update: from page 8+

Smart people learn from other mistakes, some dont and keep doing same mistakes. Massive is sadly one of them.

OP your message is dead on. I have played too many online games and MMO's and pattern is always same. Focus too much into pvp or make endgame heavy pvp progression and you end up empty servers in no time.

You can have Successful PvP games .. but they use a Factions system or flag to prevent backstabbing/betrayal

Shadowbane was Ubisoft's earlier failed 'Free-For-All' PvP game that failed as the majority of their players left.. you would think they would learn from their previous experience

, from the experience of other successful PvP games, they use Factions vs. Factions, NOT 'Free-for-All' so good PvP systems can be done
-- PvP
Factions systems work great because it prevents betrayal, backstabbing by same-team or 'neutral' players.. people can accept being killed or ganked by an enemy faction (kill on sght) in battlegrounds/arenas but hate being griefed/ganked b someone they helped or on the same team,
which
is why most games no longer allow PKing same team by implementing factions
... because
grieifing, betrayal, team-killing drives away the majority of players, leaving only a few hardore that love 'Free-for-All' behavior

Sure, betraying & griefing & ganking is part of the lore of the Division & it actually rewards griefing & ganking & betrayal that was removed from other games (because it was such a problem for majority of players) --but is it healthy for the keeping the game's population up?

Population numbers have now dropped down 8000-11,000 players on Steam & #7 on Xbox1, replaced by 2+ yr old games like Destiny & Call of Duty Black Ops that are 2+ yrs old but don't allow betrayal or griefing in their PvP.. math & numbers don't lie..

Massive has to think hard about where they want their population numbers to be to fund DLC, updates, & Divsion 2 (if there is one)

That's why the most common threads you see everyday is complaining about the griefing & backstabbing that's driving away players like this one from a victim: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...t-to-customers

And now from the griefers' viewpoint (and most of the other posters are condemning him as the type driving away mos other players: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...Zone-Betrayal)

-
at E3 years ago in talks about game design, I remember a MMO game designer from one the most popular MMOs said they learned the lesson that it took only about 5% to 10% of a player population to grief others (they would be nice or friend or neutral, fighting mobs in the same area
&
then backstabbed by a neighboring player when they were weak or wounded during or fighting another mob, ganking them, etc to drive away 80+% of the player base who were frustrated, leaving only a hardcore 10% to 20% that enjoyed such thrills)

This lead them to successfully adopting the Factions system so that they could still enjoy PvP (fight enemy faction, cooperate with same faction) & NOT be backstabbed by presumablly neutral or friendly players

[theonlyway]

MMO refers to Massive Multiplayer Online game. This game qualifies as that, as there are more than just 8 people in an instanced server of the Dark Zone which is centralized. So yes, it is an MMO. It is not necessarily an RPG however, which is along the lines of which you are referencing when saying MMO. Just because you can't clearly see it being an RPG, doesn't mean the MMO portion doesn't apply.

Um... no... You really need to re-read the definition of a MMO.I'll also bold the part so you can understand where you fall short.

A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG or MMO) is an online game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously in the same instance (or world). MMOs usually feature a huge, persistent open world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.

Doing PvE you have a max of 4 people in your group. Where as groups in early MMO's could be 20+. In the dark zone you can have a max of 24 players in an instance. In MMO's you can have thousands of people in the same location all fighting. At all times in the division you are segregated to different servers away from the rest of the player base and at best you can have a maximum of 24 people on your screen, if you are lucky. If you consider 24 players massive I pitty your gaming history. The closest this game got to being a MMO was during the release where everyone was in the same starting area. There is nothing "massive" when it comes to the division other than the developers name.