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  1. #1

    It's not a question of developer competence

    We know you're not 'tards.
    This is in response to the alleged comment by Jan Harasym quoted here:

    http://www.thecountrycaller.com/4997...-lot-going-on/

    Most of us don't think you're incompetent at your jobs. But a lot of us know the realities of game design and are aware that most, if not all, of the deeper problems that plague the game at present are because of decisions made long ago and that it simply may not be possible (financially or within time constraints) for the team to pivot and change direction and send the game in a direction that will please the players you do have.

    What I mean by deeper problems are not things like bugs or exploits. Those are very surface level. What I mean are things like making your first few months of content revolve around Incursions and "going rogue" in the DZ, only to find out post launch people hate those things, more than half of your players play solo and the rogue mechanic is breeding a toxic community. Suddenly, all your planned content that you've already mapped out, allocated money to and have begun work on, is digging a deeper hole. It's a massive red flag when every one of your content releases just manages to P.O. players even more, but what can you do at this point? Not much.

    There's nothing worse than a sunk-cost fallacy. Smart players know this, which is why they're cutting their losses and turning away from the game.

    The facts:
    You've got a loot-based game where good loot never drops. You also don't have much loot TO drop. You've got a handful of "legendary" named weapons that are inferior or as good as a plain crafted weapon.
    It's lightning fast to reach the 30+ "endgame"
    You've released very little new content for this "endgame". The content you have released, most of the players don't like it.
    You keep trying to make PVP a thing, the MAIN thing in fact, when more than half of your players hate the DZ.

    None of these problems are cheap to fix, if you even wanted to. All of them would take substantial development time, which you don't have if you want to hold on to your playerbase. Bad choices were made. Expensive mistakes that have to be paid for. That's not the fault of the coders, artists or designers of this game, but it does seems like a directive issue. Maybe you could have done some more market research and facilitated player feedback on the endgame back in the beta period when there may have been time to adapt.
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  2. #2
    sandpants's Avatar Senior Member
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    I can sympathize with the game lacking open-world content, but to say that they are TRYING to make PvP the main thing is a leap in logic based on the former.

    PvP is not necessary. Even if you are in the DZ.

    The DZ is what they've described, a risky PvE area. Like it or don't. I am not saying it's balanced, and I am not saying it's fair. Or even close to traditional PvP.

    But the point being is that you go in to get items with the understanding that you can lose them. For some reason people seem to forget the last part and end up being upset and complain that the DZ somehow tries to shoehorn them.

    There is no fallacy, only what players are trying to manipulate out of devs - a comfort zone.

    If you are not up to losing stuff, don't go in.
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  3. #3
    Originally Posted by citizenh2142 Go to original post
    We know you're not 'tards.
    This is in response to the alleged comment by Jan Harasym quoted here:

    http://www.thecountrycaller.com/4997...-lot-going-on/

    Most of us don't think you're incompetent at your jobs. But a lot of us know the realities of game design and are aware that most, if not all, of the deeper problems that plague the game at present are because of decisions made long ago and that it simply may not be possible (financially or within time constraints) for the team to pivot and change direction and send the game in a direction that will please the players you do have.

    What I mean by deeper problems are not things like bugs or exploits. Those are very surface level. What I mean are things like making your first few months of content revolve around Incursions and "going rogue" in the DZ, only to find out post launch people hate those things, more than half of your players play solo and the rogue mechanic is breeding a toxic community. Suddenly, all your planned content that you've already mapped out, allocated money to and have begun work on, is digging a deeper hole. It's a massive red flag when every one of your content releases just manages to P.O. players even more, but what can you do at this point? Not much.

    There's nothing worse than a sunk-cost fallacy. Smart players know this, which is why they're cutting their losses and turning away from the game.

    The facts:
    You've got a loot-based game where good loot never drops. You also don't have much loot TO drop. You've got a handful of "legendary" named weapons that are inferior or as good as a plain crafted weapon.
    It's lightning fast to reach the 30+ "endgame"
    You've released very little new content for this "endgame". The content you have released, most of the players don't like it.
    You keep trying to make PVP a thing, the MAIN thing in fact, when more than half of your players hate the DZ.

    None of these problems are cheap to fix, if you even wanted to. All of them would take substantial development time, which you don't have if you want to hold on to your playerbase. Bad choices were made. Expensive mistakes that have to be paid for. That's not the fault of the coders, artists or designers of this game, but it does seems like a directive issue. Maybe you could have done some more market research and facilitated player feedback on the endgame back in the beta period when there may have been time to adapt.
    Bungie faced many of the same problems with Destiny...and was able to successfully right the ship.

    The only game design issue that was problematic from the start----and is likely not fixable----is the Dark Zone. Go too far one way....it just becomes another PVE area to farm. Go too far the other way, and its becomes a paradise for griefers and trolls. I don't think the DZ can be fixed. What CAN be fixed is the role that Massive keeps trying to insist it play in the game.

    Bungie wants the centerpiece of Destiny's end game to be its raids....but has had to accept that the vast majority of people who play Destiny can't reliably get 6 people together each week for hours to grind a raid. It got so bad with The Taken King, that only 3% of the community had completed the raid (once) on its highest difficulty setting. Only 8% had completed it at all. So Bungie has had to back away from this...and allow people to progress in the game on THEIR own terms....and not just on Bungies.

    If Massive wants to save this game....they also need to accept that they made a poor game design decision by walling off all end-game progression behind not just one but TWO activities that are downright hostile to the solo gamer. The DZ---and what it does to Agents caught by themselves----requires no clarification. The Incursion is hostile because it is ball-breakingly hard to get through unless you have gear EQUIVALENT to the what you get for completing (another game design mistake), AND you have a team that organized and all using headphones. As a solo player, try to do the Incursion with randos through matchmaking? The quit rate is nearly 100%,

    The situation here is VERY much salvageable. But in order to do it, Massive is going to have to swallow some bitter medicine....and acknowledge that some of its prior decisions were mistakes...and walk them back.

    If they do....they can save the game. Because the core play is soild.

    If they don't....well this game will have a very short shelf life.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by sandpants Go to original post
    I can sympathize with the game lacking open-world content, but to say that they are TRYING to make PvP the main thing is a leap in logic based on the former.

    PvP is not necessary. Even if you are in the DZ.

    The DZ is what they've described, a risky PvE area. Like it or don't. I am not saying it's balanced, and I am not saying it's fair. Or even close to traditional PvP.

    But the point being is that you go in to get items with the understanding that you can lose them. For some reason people seem to forget the last part and end up being upset and complain that the DZ somehow tries to shoehorn them.

    There is no fallacy, only what players are trying to manipulate out of devs - a comfort zone.

    If you are not up to losing stuff, don't go in.
    No.

    The DZ is a PvPvE area. Where you can have PvP FORCED upon you at anytime. Worse its not like PVP in CoD, Halo or Destiny where everyone knows there is a fight....and everyone is realtivley evenly matched.

    "PvP" in The Division is basically GRIEFING. It has more incommon with getting mugged in a back alley than with PvP in most shooter games. In fact I can count on a HAND----and still have several fingers left over---the number of times that a "pvp encounter" in the DZ didn't begin with some would-be Rogue SHOOTING ME IN THE BACK. Usually while I'm fighting an AI enemy, or similarly distracted.

    The vast majority of PVE players don't want to deal with that. Especially since the ease at which one can LOSE items acquired is out of balance with the effort necessary to obtain them. That was a mistake Massive made in going frm the closed to the open beta. People had fun in the DZ in the closed beta, because the AI enemies were much easier to beat...and if you got ganked at the Extraction Zone, no big deal. You just go back and get some more.

    But with the open Beta, the difficulty in the AI enemies took a HUGE upward spike....and the DZ took a VERY grim turn. Now anything in your pack, you now had to work hard to get. Now it became easier for stronger players to simply ROB weaker players, rather than run around, find, and beat much tougher AI enemies....and those playes being robbed now started to RESENT having things that they now had to work hard to acquire taken from them.

    That was the start of the toxic DZ play environment that the game now finds itself in.

    ...and its a game design problem.

    Because the game doesn't really give you a choice. You either have to grind the DZ....or Grind the Incursions in order to progress in the end-game. NEITHER of which is a pleasant prospect for most PVE players. Which is why so many of them are hanging up the game in droves.
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  5. #5
    Originally Posted by sandpants Go to original post
    I can sympathize with the game lacking open-world content, but to say that they are TRYING to make PvP the main thing is a leap in logic based on the former.

    PvP is not necessary. Even if you are in the DZ.

    The DZ is what they've described, a risky PvE area. Like it or don't. I am not saying it's balanced, and I am not saying it's fair. Or even close to traditional PvP.

    But the point being is that you go in to get items with the understanding that you can lose them. For some reason people seem to forget the last part and end up being upset and complain that the DZ somehow tries to shoehorn them.

    There is no fallacy, only what players are trying to manipulate out of devs - a comfort zone.

    If you are not up to losing stuff, don't go in.
    A risky PVE area does not imply PK or PVP. Did I miss something in this part?

    Losing your stuff to a mob is one thing, losing it to someone that can gank you just cause: Reason's or there gear is so much more superior than yours because you are in your intended DZ and they are not.. Or a hacker to make it even better.

    This game is fundamentally broken. Hope it work's out because I do enjoy playing it, but in it's current state, It is a literal joke. World-wide in fact.
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  6. #6
    xPLAY3R1x's Avatar Senior Member
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    It's been written a thousand times, so make this one thousand and one:

    The original concept of the DZ was good in theory, and... Even in practice pre-1.1 before they nerfed the Rouge penalties.

    The tension came from NOT knowing when somebody was going to go Rogue. Now, it's the exact opposite. The unusual has become the norm. Hence, there is no tension.

    As others stated, even if a person or a whole group went Rogue, A) The risk/reward was balanced on the Rogue end to make it a serious decision to consider, and B) It wasn't that big deal for Non-Rogues as the mobs weren't that hard to farm and players could easily make up that TIME -- most important aspect above all else -- Relatively fast. This all changed with patch 1.1. where it swung the risk/rewards in favor of Rogues... at the expense of non-Rogue, PVE players. Now, it's out of control and a major reason the game is on life support only two months after launch, with not even the first DLC having been released.

    The main thing I find very telling is when they completely ignored the early launch statistics that said 60% of the player base played solo. This could have been because of everybody leveling in the campaign, but even so, I went into the DZ alone (pre-1.1) and did fairly well. I never got ganked at an extraction and was able to extract some GOOD loot -- Another piece of the puzzle that desperately needs addressing and soon.

    Couple the DZ problems, ignoring your playerbase and knee-jerk reactions to trying to stop exploiters and cheats and it's very easy to plot the course of destruction this game took where Massive either ignored, or failed to react in time (ironically) to the fact the community played almost 180 degrees to everything they had planned and released.

    Can they save it?

    Anything is possible.

    The more important question is... Will the community who has been at odds with them the whole time, but WANTS to like the game give them one more chance?
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  7. #7
    CannyJack's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by RNGesusH8tsU Go to original post
    It's been written a thousand times, so make this one thousand and one:

    The original concept of the DZ was good in theory, and... Even in practice pre-1.1 before they nerfed the Rouge penalties.

    The tension came from NOT knowing when somebody was going to go Rogue. Now, it's the exact opposite. The unusual has become the norm. Hence, there is no tension.

    As others stated, even if a person or a whole group went Rogue, A) The risk/reward was balanced on the Rogue end to make it a serious decision to consider, and B) It wasn't that big deal for Non-Rogues as the mobs weren't that hard to farm and players could easily make up that TIME -- most important aspect above all else -- Relatively fast. This all changed with patch 1.1. where it swung the risk/rewards in favor of Rogues... at the expense of non-Rogue, PVE players. Now, it's out of control and a major reason the game is on life support only two months after launch, with not even the first DLC having been released.
    I completely agree. Pre 1.1, my whole clan would pull together to run in the DZ. It was great -- we sometimes got hit by rogues, we sometimes didn't, everyone was way into it. What's more, we could actually fight rogues effectively, and at least drive them off. After 1.1, the DZ was the domain of exploiters, people who had vastly dominant gear, and who suffered no real risk to going rogue. DZ tasks are a chore now.

    The more important question is... Will the community who has been at odds with them the whole time, but WANTS to like the game give them one more chance?
    Update 1.2 will tell the tale, I think. I think they need to have a long think about rolling back some of the poor decisions they made in 1.1, and give us a game that feels like it offers something for every player - PvE, PvP, solo, and team.
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  8. #8
    tph1976's Avatar Senior Member
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    I hardly think any individual Developer is to blame for the state of the this game, nor that they are ******s (which is a horrible slur imo). This game is a product which is influenced at many levels within the two companies involved and as such the entirety of the companies are responsible for the current state of the game.

    Never the less the outcome is the only thing that is relevant. And that outcome pretty much defines the word incompetence. There is no excuses that "coding is hard" because they launched a product and slapped a price tag on it even though it is very obvious the product is far from finished and lacks a certain amount of quality.

    And while a lot of us are probably pretty forgiving when it comes to the billion dollar game industry it does require the companies to take responsibility for their product and be held accountable for it. This is not a hobby club. This is a professional business that sold a product. For real money, real people worked hard for. A refund offer or compensation is in order, next to an apology because of all the mistakes that were made here.

    And no, it is not something that was a surprise post launch discovery. They pretty much had decades of experience to bank on with similar games and concepts to understand that their concepts did not appeal to the larger game community and that the marketing efforts were not targeting audiences suitable for the finished product. Arguing it was a huge surprise is like saying that it was an unforeseen consequence you got electrocuted when you stuck your wet fingers into the wall outlet.
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  9. #9
    this developer is in FACT incompetent.

    3 patches to fix FL incursion? incompetence

    the exact same bug in game that where presented in BETA still not fix let alone not fixed for release? incompetence.

    DZ most time being unplayable due to the amount of people hacking when post beta they said for release there would be something implemented? incompetence.

    massive has no f'n clue what they are doing.................................. just another crap dev team that got our money that wont listen to the player base to fix the game.........


    but if you are one of the lead devs buddies and stream live everyday you get the convenience of having him remove players out of server so you can play in peace.......................

    the game you see now will be no different in 1 year...................... look at other UBI titles......... click on the Forums tab you can go to all of UBI's game forums................. it the exact same thing..................................... the exact same complaints.....................................
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by kellygreen45 Go to original post
    Bungie faced many of the same problems with Destiny...and was able to successfully right the ship.

    The only game design issue that was problematic from the start----and is likely not fixable----is the Dark Zone. Go too far one way....it just becomes another PVE area to farm. Go too far the other way, and its becomes a paradise for griefers and trolls. I don't think the DZ can be fixed. What CAN be fixed is the role that Massive keeps trying to insist it play in the game.

    Bungie wants the centerpiece of Destiny's end game to be its raids....but has had to accept that the vast majority of people who play Destiny can't reliably get 6 people together each week for hours to grind a raid. It got so bad with The Taken King, that only 3% of the community had completed the raid (once) on its highest difficulty setting. Only 8% had completed it at all. So Bungie has had to back away from this...and allow people to progress in the game on THEIR own terms....and not just on Bungies.

    If Massive wants to save this game....they also need to accept that they made a poor game design decision by walling off all end-game progression behind not just one but TWO activities that are downright hostile to the solo gamer. The DZ---and what it does to Agents caught by themselves----requires no clarification. The Incursion is hostile because it is ball-breakingly hard to get through unless you have gear EQUIVALENT to the what you get for completing (another game design mistake), AND you have a team that organized and all using headphones. As a solo player, try to do the Incursion with randos through matchmaking? The quit rate is nearly 100%,

    The situation here is VERY much salvageable. But in order to do it, Massive is going to have to swallow some bitter medicine....and acknowledge that some of its prior decisions were mistakes...and walk them back.

    If they do....they can save the game. Because the core play is soild.

    If they don't....well this game will have a very short shelf life.
    ^This

    In my completely honest opinion, 1.2 is their final chance to retain a good chunk of the players they have left. If it's just as bad as 1.1 then I don't see this game surviving with any decent amount of player base (and even less will buy the paid DLC).
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