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  1. #1

    What Massive can learn from Bungie

    Massive is trying to, for some reason, re-invent the wheel with The Division in many ways where it doesn't need to. It's frustrating to see some of the game mechanic and loot system choices they chose for this game, when you can look at them from day one, especially in hindsight, and see that there's no way they could work in the long run.

    The primary issue with this game is the balancing in PvP. This is why exploiting is an issue. If the gear that was exploited could only be used in PvE, then what would do we care if you cheese your way to high gear score?

    Massive can learn a few things from Destiny. (and I know that many of you despise Destiny while many of you, myself included, love it, but regardless, I think that some of you may agree with me here.) Destiny has been out for 1 and a half years now, and if you look at how's its progressed from day one to current day, you know it's come a long way. Whether you like Destiny or not, when you compare even early, pre-DLC Destiny to the Divison, it's easy to see now that Bungie got a few things right.

    PvP and PvE, and what you ultimately do with your gear. The bottom line is, in a game like The Division, even more so in an environment like the DZ, you can not have level advantages for PvP interactions. You just can't. Every one needs to do the same damage, have the same health, the same crit chance %, etc. etc. when engaging other players, because the DZ is supposed to be a place to GET the best loot. The DZ cannot be both the place where you find the best loot AND the place where you show it off.

    The issue with The Division right now, is that there's nothing to do with your high gear score. And I'm an optimist, I think that with future DLC, we'll get some more interesting and fun/re-playable things to do with our gear. Like Destiny players got with House of Wolves. But right now in The Division, there is no such thing.

    Here's my primary Destiny comparison: The Crucible and Iron Banner. You have PvP, where there are no level advantages. Your light level means nothing. Your weapon doesn't do any more damage than mine does, it just may have some cooler abilities, which is fine. Then you have the Iron Banner, where light level does matter, and you can take your hard earned high light level gear and put it to the test. The Crucible would be the DZ, while Iron Banner would be a future dedicated PvP for The Division.

    It was debated early on whether or not The Division needs dedicated PvP or not, but I think it's more clear now than ever before that it absolutely does. Especially since many PvP interactions in the streets of the DZ are the funniest, most non tactical things to watch in the world. If Massive does it right, surely they can incorporate it into the narrative in some way. This is what would need gear score brackets, so if you exploited to get your gear, that's cool, you can only get matched up to compete with those who are your own gear score. While those of us who earned the gear legit and have a reasonable gear score, will get matched up accordingly and we can compete and show of what we've earned that way.

    Here's my next comparison:

    The way Destiny did high-end gear (Exotics) is much more balanced and effective than the way Massive is doing HE gear with The Division.

    Bungie said: oh you have a bunch of exotic, super cool weapons with awesome perks/talents? That's fine, you can only use on at a time. What this also does, is give more meaning to everything else that's in the game. I still need to find good purples. Even if i find a blue, it may have more light than one of my purples, so i infuse it. At least now, I can have a reason to change weapons or armor based on the situation or mission.

    With The Division, every SMG, for example, has the possibility to get the same Talents, yet, some SMGs do more base damage or have more stability/rate of fire (and we know what guns these are.) With a system like this, once you get the luck of the draw and get the god roll gun with talents that aren't useless, you have absolutely no reason to ever use any other gun. Same with armor. Now any thing that isn't gold is just crafting materials. If you ask me, the way Massive has set up the random generator for talents on weapons and armor is kind of lazy. Especially with a game that's "grounded in reality", so we have no chance of seeing any creative futuristic weapons that shoot lighting (even though we have spud guns that shoot health) Perhaps if there was a limit of how many High Ends you could have equipped, for armor and weapons, you'd some some more variation in people's gear. Then, you make the only advantage to High-End items the Talents that they have. What if High-Ends had great talents but terrible Armor or Weapon damage, while Purples had no Talents but much higher damage or armor, etc. I think this would balance out people's gear.


    However, that's an after-thought. The big thing that needs to change is the level advantages in PvP. In my opinion (and I do stress the words: 'my opinion') making the DZ not have level advantages for PvP interactions and adding dedicated competitive PvP sooner rather than later would alleviate some of the problems that are coming from exploits and game balancing in general. Then we can be hopeful that future PvE content will actually let us put some of our gear to use.
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  2. #2
    TickTak77's Avatar Senior Member
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    The only reason why the "one exotic" worked in Destiny, was because the legendary gear was also very good.

    In The Division, the gulf between purple superiors and gold high ends is quite significant, so it wouldn't work. Plus, let's be honest - The Destiny exotic system was trash.

    Also - based on my experiences and the sevearl posts on this forum, PvP isn't an issue in this game - there's plenty of it going around, and people are upset that their gear doesn't compete. That doesn't change in any sort of dedicated PvP system.

    You are right about the SMG rolls - I got Deadly, Brutal, and Fierce yesterday and nearly fell off my chair. But, between the MP5 and the Vector, I must have crafted 80 SMGs to try and get that perfect roll. It doesn't just drop into your lap.

    I think ultimately the goal has to be to encourage people to go after the best available gear in the game, which is what The Division does with it's current setup. Your suggestion regarding purples with higher damage vs purples etc., is pointless.

    Overall, the main reason why people played Destiny so much, wasn't because it was a great game, but because there was almost no game like it available.

    Are there things that Massive can learn from Bungie? Sure.

    But the last thing The Division should be doing, is borrowing ideas from Destiny. If you are going to borrow ideas, get them from very good games. Not destiny.
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  3. #3
    A level playing field DZ would work but only for the ****ty loot that's available now, if a level playing field was introduced then on the same footing a DZ mode where level and gear advantages are enabled should be introduced maybe a fortnightly event or something where loot quality is vastly increased and actually worth fighting for..
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by SupaSkrub Go to original post
    A level playing field DZ would work but only for the ****ty loot that's available now, if a level playing field was introduced then on the same footing a DZ mode where level and gear advantages are enabled should be introduced maybe a fortnightly event or something where loot quality is vastly increased and actually worth fighting for..
    Yes, but the DZ isn't where you should be using the gear you earn. Once a player gets a bunch of high-end gear, there's absolutely nothing else to do with it aside from trolling the DZ. That's the problem. Whether the DZ has loot worth fighting for or not, you have the OP players that got gear from outside the DZ, coming into the DZ, which is a place to find gear they don't need, and can you blame them? There's nothing else to do. This is why there needs to be dedicated PvP for these players. Something/ anything to satisfy everyone's natural urge to put what they've grinded for to the test. The next update is supposed to bring "changes to the way we play the dark zone," this I think is the update that will really make or break the end game content.
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  5. #5
    I stopped reading after the title. No one can learn anything from Bungie, except what not to do.
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by PrimeTym3 Go to original post
    Yes, but the DZ isn't where you should be using the gear you earn. Once a player gets a bunch of high-end gear, there's absolutely nothing else to do with it aside from trolling the DZ. That's the problem. Whether the DZ has loot worth fighting for or not, you have the OP players that got gear from outside the DZ, coming into the DZ, which is a place to find gear they don't need, and can you blame them? There's nothing else to do. This is why there needs to be dedicated PvP for these players. Something/ anything to satisfy everyone's natural urge to put what they've grinded for to the test. The next update is supposed to bring "changes to the way we play the dark zone," this I think is the update that will really make or break the end game content.
    The problem you describe is a problem with people, not with the game. I regularly go into the DZ to defend newbs rather than gank. I'll go to every extraction and sit behind the suspicious looking guy and murder him after he opens fire, then pick up the poor newbie so he can extract his gear. The problem isn't that the DZ loot isn't good enough, or that there's nothing else to do. The problem is that people are scumbags and bullies, and the lack of real life repercussions have allowed them to mature into adulthood while still possessing this mindset.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by TtargetPractice Go to original post
    The problem you describe is a problem with people, not with the game. I regularly go into the DZ to defend newbs rather than gank. I'll go to every extraction and sit behind the suspicious looking guy and murder him after he opens fire, then pick up the poor newbie so he can extract his gear. The problem isn't that the DZ loot isn't good enough, or that there's nothing else to do. The problem is that people are scumbags and bullies, and the lack of real life repercussions have allowed them to mature into adulthood while still possessing this mindset.
    You are exactly correct, regardless of what the actually problem is though, whether it be nothing to do or scumbag bully players, the proposed solution is the same. Level playing field in the dark zone, while competitive PvP lives somewhere else in the game.

    Massive needs to eliminate the ability for scumbag bully players with exploited unreasonably high end gear to pick on people in the dark zone. You do this by disabling any level advantages, DPS advantages, Health or Skill Power advantages in the dark zone for PvP interactions only.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by PrimeTym3 Go to original post
    You are exactly correct, regardless of what the actually problem is though, whether it be nothing to do or scumbag bully players, the proposed solution is the same. Level playing field in the dark zone, while competitive PvP lives somewhere else in the game.
    I agree that there needs to be some competitive pvp mode, where certain skills are disabled and all stats are normalized. The dark zone isn't a pvp area, it's an area where player killing is allowed. Many people don't seem to possess the ability to differentiate. There is currently no pvp in the division.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by TtargetPractice Go to original post
    I agree that there needs to be some competitive pvp mode, where certain skills are disabled and all stats are normalized. The dark zone isn't a pvp area, it's an area where player killing is allowed. Many people don't seem to possess the ability to differentiate. There is currently no pvp in the division.
    I agree 100%

    Game needs to balance out the dark zone player killing and add more true PvP type end game modes.
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