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[GiveMeTactical]

Are you talking Vegas 1 & 2? because if that is what you mean by Rainbow Six then yes, I do remember having to leave them behind must of the time as they would only get in my way.

It has been a loooong time since I play the real Rainbow Six games but I recall having good times setting those guys up to breach and such. Of course, if the Real Red Storm had the technology today that they had back then, I can only salivate at what kind of games we would be playing right now.

[jeannaq]

Are you talking Vegas 1 & 2? because if that is what you mean by Rainbow Six then yes, I do remember having to leave them behind must of the time as they would only get in my way.

It has been a loooong time since I play the real Rainbow Six games but I recall having good times setting those guys up to breach and such. Of course, if the Real Red Storm had the technology today that they had back then, I can only salivate at what kind of games we would be playing right now.

I never actually played the Vegas single player campaigns. The stupid AI appeared in RS 3 and the following games. Also I never completed Critical Hour or Lockdown, for me those were just horrible games.

[Dieinthedark]

I absolutely hate those games with over the top command systems.

Sooo, don't play tactical shooters then? Would you play a football game if you didn't enjoy picking the play to run? No.

You spend 20 damned minutes fumbling through keys on a keyboard (or button combos on a controller) just to simply tell the guy go over there and shoot when they shoot back.

Seriously, if you look at the picture I posted on the previous page, once you run through the commands a couple times, you don't need to read them any more. It becomes muscle memory.D own is follow me, right right right move there etc...it becomes second nature. I know 20 minutes is exaggerated to prove a point but its not even close, its not even an issue.

So fine after a test of patience you finally get him in place but as soon as the shooting starts the stupid AI does something completely horrid and has your team run around like headless chickens! So what's the point in setting it all up if the AI doesn't work?

Valid point but that's why so many have raised the point that the AI needs to be competent enough to not need to baby sit but that we can still command them. Merely a follow and engage AI behavior is not acceptable. For COD/BF sure, not a tactical shooter like GR.

[GiveMeTactical]

In jeannaq's defense... Tactital does not mean UBER realistic.

OGR was very tactical in the sense that you needed to use your brain and plot a course of action, going all Gun Ho did not play well, yet, it did not have all the keys in the keyboard bind it to a different procedure or move.

I like tactical but I also like to PLAY the game not die while remembering or trying to remember which key to hit... this is like watching a movie with subtitles and spending more time reading than actually watching the movie LOL.

I guess one thing that we all agree (Tactical & Gun Ho) is that the AI, whether friendly or foe, should be more competent. Only time will tell how much the Devs will spend on Eye-Candy and how much in fine tuning.

[StealthTallyFox]

heh, I doubt any of us will need the AI after 3 hours of playing GRW, since by then it's either solo or coop gameplay

[GiveMeTactical]

If the AI companions are done right, you'll always use them!

+1

The issue is that in most of the new shooters you want to ring them by their necks ... so, if I am allowed to leave them back, I rather go at it alone. Can't tell you the many times I personally have tried to shoot them myself either because they have gotten in the way of me moving away from a grenade or because right in front of me they have allowed an enemy ai to pump me full of lead

This is why I believe the devs should spend equal amounts of time with eye-candy and AI

[DanHibikiFanXM]

AI is without a doubt the biggest key to success for a tactical shooter. I think that's primarily the heart of the issue that people are bringing up is the fact that older tactical shooters (including many TC games...) have had absolutely worthless AI. In my opinion the AI should be comparable in skill (identifying targets, using cover, shooting accurately, etc.) as an average human player. It's always mind numbing when you are supposedly commanding a team of elite special forces operators and they can't clear a building worth a dang or shoot somebody that's less than 50m away.

In terms of control, like I said you need something that straddles the balance between hardcore and casual. Efficient is the word I would use. Like I mentioned on the earlier page I think that Operation Flashpoint: Red River has/had the best in-game command control I've ever used in a game. It was incredibly flexible, fast, and forgiving...efficient. All that was needed was the D-Pad (to select individual Marines, a combo, or the entire fire team) and the command wheel button. The commands were streamlined to only the bare essentials of what are absolutely necessary and/or reasonable for the size of the unit you are commanding. In reality it was more or less a modified version of the one featured in Close Combat: First to Fight. This is in juxtaposition with cumbersome, inefficient, and mind-numbing squad control schemes like those in the Arma titles. The main limitation of the system used in OFP:RR is that you could only command a fire team and nothing bigger like a full squad and the fact your AI teammates rode on the short bus.

That said though I would be satisfied with a *really* good context sensitive system as well. In this case it might help to look at something like what was featured in the Brothers in Arms franchise (excluding the horrific mess that was Hell's Highway...). Holding down the command button would bring up a context sensitive command icon. You just put it on a location that you wanted a team to go to and they would go and take up that spot. Put the icon on some enemies and you'd order a suppress command. Put it on a group of enemies and hit the shoot button and they would rush/assault the enemy position. The only other buttons that were needed was the button that swapped fire teams and the rally/regroup button. Incredibly fast and efficient, but the major downside was that you could only really move guys to locations that were visible which isn't optimal in a firefight.

Ideally, you want a very fast and efficient context sensitive command system of some kind for firefights, and some kind of map command system for elaborate and precise maneuvers...but it all means nothing if your team has worthless AI.

[Lolssi]

I don't remember old Red Storm games having bad AI. Maybe I just learned to work with the limitations, I don't know.
I remember room clearing working well enough In Red Storm and SWAT games.
Only game I remember being frustrated with AI (not counting NHL) is SWAT 3. In that game your team would walk in your line of fire and kill you when they took hit.

[Sp--pyBrown]

Even if the players ditched the friendly AI completely, the enemy AI would still have an enormous effect on gameplay.

Good post DanHibikiFan. If they go the context-sensitive way, I hope they don't forget to add a command map. Without a command map any AI-executed flanking manouvre is impossible. Unless, off course, the AI is very advanced.

[DanHibikiFanXM]

I don't remember old Red Storm games having bad AI. Maybe I just learned to work with the limitations, I don't know.
I remember room clearing working well enough In Red Storm and SWAT games.
Only game I remember being frustrated with AI (not counting NHL) is SWAT 3. In that game your team would walk in your line of fire and kill you when they took hit.

Oh, they definitely were REALLY bad at times. In the old Rainbow Six titles the AI could be excruciatingly sluggish and lackadaisical when clearing rooms. They would slowly enter rooms one by one often leaving the point man on the team hanging for a solid second or so. Lockdown, another RSE title, had AI that would throw grenades intended to go into a room against the side of the door which would then land at the team's feet. The AI in Ghost Recon/Island Thunder/Desert Siege wouldn't always take cover effectively, could swing wildly between being sharpshooters and being cross eyed when firing, and they were 100% useless for room clearing since they could only follow you. The AI in GR2/SS suffered a lot of the same problems especially in taking up bad positions and being cross eyed when shooting.

I have to say that I've never really played a tactical shooter of any kind where I was both satisfied with the means/method of controlling the AI squad along with the AI's performance. Some games come close but there is always something that can leave you frustrated.