1. #1
    Bothain's Avatar Banned
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    Conversation at EB games in Seattle Regarding the DZ

    We were at an EB games in Seattle and during a conversation several folks brought up the purchase or on the fence questions about The Division, it was actually pretty civil as we we all facing each other and attitudes and bad manners never surfaced.

    Here is most of what we ALL agreed on with the exception of one individual, I will call him.....Kenny.

    First, the EB game i was at to yesterdays date has not sold their allotment of PC Division games (consoles nearly sold out), not even close, they would give exact numbers but they had more cancels than purchased the last couple of weeks.

    Back to the main topic. We all agreed the Dark Zone PVP was garbage, except "Kenny". Kenny was young, wearing a typical Seattle mophead wool beanie and hoody, the exact stereotype of person you think about posting insane crap on the internet, and said this to his face, everyone got a laugh, he likes the current PVP in the DZ because he can do one thing regular agents cant, and that is fire first from behind.

    SO we discussed that one aspect, the gank from behind and we made "Kenny" our whipping dog, him smiling the whole time. Kenny stated that the ability to gank first, to fire from behind was crucial to him buying the game. The mechanic is perfect for his type of play as he only likes PVP and said he wouldnt likely play the game. Keep in mind the language and schooling were not on par with what one would think a person should use during conversation, so I embelish sane words and punctuation as most of the kids vocabulary was "cool" and "brah" and some lesser potty mouth language he obviously thought was a norm so that you the reader understand.

    Anyway, so we had 5 folks, including a clerk in on the conversation. No one was opposed at all to PVP in the DZ, the problem lay with the less educated developers choices on why they would implement a system like they did. We brought up controversy to gain exposure......seemed like a good call, then we hashed around the bad word of mouth, so that is a 50/50 bet on whether the coverage would result in more sales. We wont know until Ubisoft releases numbers.

    We talked about the first strike gank ability verse the gamer that wants to play the game and remain in character, and Agent verse the Rogue. The Rogue is in a win win at al times, the Agent is not. The agent cant clear a DZ extraction to rpovide safety without going rogue, a penalty, the Agent cannot help friends hunt down a know ganker without going rogue, a penalty. The Agent cannot clear a group or player following to ensure their safety, knowing the other player by either name or simply actions is going to kill them without going rogue, yet another penalty.

    The Rogue on the other hand is not worried about game lore, does not care about being an agent, no penalty. The Rogue can pick and choose their engagement scenario, no penalty. The Rogue can kill and extract on the spot if at an extraction point, no penalty. The Rogue can kill faster as they get first strike capability and in most scenarios will win, no penalty. The Rogue knows most agents will not shoot first, no penalty. The Rogue has a timer..........a timer.........a timer and if they kill enough, an icon that shows up on the map, a nearly non existent penatly for achieving the ability to claim alot of agent lives.

    We agreed the first gank mentality that brought in a bunch of gamers like "Kenny", he laughed at this and grinned ear to ear. We agreed the developers need to come up with something different because the DZ will not survive on its own with the current mechanics. Only one side profits, and that side ruins th game for alot of folks, seeing that money is Ubisofts main goal.

    We came to a consensus and I asked "Kenny"what he would do when the DZ was empty? He said he would move back to his regular games or wait for another to come along. He laughed about being a **** but said he pays money too so the fun should be his and how he chooses. We laughed at that and after nearly 90 minutes we said our goodbyes and the two that were there to buy the pre-order game still did, though they said they wouldn't use the DZ until it got "Fixed"

    So what do we see? Rogues were a nifty idea, poorly executed by heads in the sky developers. No idea goes unpunished, and word of mouth and posts have indeed hurt the game sales.

    The first gank ability the developers created made a rift between those that want to play the lore and play as an agent, its called immersion, and the small amount of players simply there in the DZ to gank and grab loot, that could care less about game mechanics and game lore as long as they get their gank fix. Thats the biggest gripe we all had during that convo.

    I suggested this "repair" to the DZ very early on and many players have posted the idea as their own. So I will retype it, and claim the idea as it makes the most sense among the hundreds already out there.

    Make the gank community a target. Give them the ability to choose a faction and run around being little monsters like they want and let the agents and them fight to their hearts content. No more free ganking, the lore stays fixed, there is draw for both sides, missions make more sense, even in pvp form.........again, why this wasn't done is beyond me.

    Some stupid *** developer thought ganking would bring in large crowds, they were wrong. The idea above, is the way to fix the DZ, still let the gankers try and gank though they will have a harder time but they will have tons of perks. unique weapons, no nametags, the ability to draw on npcs for support or simply blend into npcs, plus, if the developers pulled their heads out of their nether regions the little animals could gain something like elite status becoming more powerful until they became a boss like player and then like the "rogue hunts" the agents have to kill the big sob, hell make it a mobile raid. of course, power being lost on death but the rewards for both sides?.....that's for the silly developers with no common sense to decide.

    Yes I love bashing these developers because their idea and execution of the DZ simply sucks.
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  2. #2
    SgtDmX's Avatar Member
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    So, the only thing you didn't like about rogue-system is the first-strike ganking? I honestly don't see the first strike in itself as an issue. My issue with the rogue system is that it takes multiple bullets (enough damage) to turn rogue. If someone shoots me, even 1 bullet, they should go rogue immediately so that I can react to it and return fire, and not have to wait for them to do enough damage to me, before I can return fire.

    This is the main issue I have with the rogue system.
    It allows baiting and a crystal-clear advantage to those that want to go rogue.
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  3. #3
    Arsenic_Touch's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by SgtDmX Go to original post
    So, the only thing you didn't like about rogue-system is the first-strike ganking? I honestly don't see the first strike in itself as an issue. My issue with the rogue system is that it takes multiple bullets (enough damage) to turn rogue. If someone shoots me, even 1 bullet, they should go rogue immediately so that I can react to it and return fire, and not have to wait for them to do enough damage to me, before I can return fire.

    This is the main issue I have with the rogue system.
    It allows baiting and a crystal-clear advantage to those that want to go rogue.
    The problem with instantly going rogue when you shoot someone is you're going to give power to the griefers that stand in front of players to purposely instigate a rogue tag.
    Then you're back at square one because you only shifted the problem somewhere else, not fixed it.

    It's either you go rogue when you kill someone which will allow people to lower your health to next to nothing and let an npc kill you off.
    Go rogue after the first shot, promoting griefers to jump in front of your bullets just to get you to go rogue so they can kill you without reprisal.
    Or the middle ground where you go rogue after a threshold like is now.

    An actual solution would be for the game to remember that you were attacked by that person previously and instantly go rogue on the next bullet. This would take care of the ones that take pot shots at you trying to get you to retaliate.
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  4. #4
    Of all the issues facing the DZ, the ability for Rogues to shoot first is not one of them.
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  5. #5
    Why don't you just play the game as the game designers made it.... or don't. I mean, you could always go play CoD.
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  6. #6
    YenRug's Avatar Member
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    With regard to Rogue-baiting, there is a "simple" solution:

    http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...7#post11423117

    I think one of the simplest solutions for rogue baiting is this:

    If you shoot a "friendly" player you are marked as an aggressor, but only to them, the amount of damage caused has nothing to do with this status, simply that you struck them.

    Any non-Rogue player can shoot someone marked as aggressor without becoming Rogue themself, unless they cause enough damage to kill them.

    By doing this, shooting someone with a low powered weapon and goading them into shooting you will not cause that other player to turn Rogue, unless they go so far as killing you.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Graill Go to original post
    We were at an EB games in Seattle and during a conversation several folks brought up the purchase or on the fence questions about The Division, it was actually pretty civil as we we all facing each other and attitudes and bad manners never surfaced.

    Here is most of what we ALL agreed on with the exception of one individual, I will call him.....Kenny.

    First, the EB game i was at to yesterdays date has not sold their allotment of PC Division games (consoles nearly sold out), not even close, they would give exact numbers but they had more cancels than purchased the last couple of weeks.

    Back to the main topic. We all agreed the Dark Zone PVP was garbage, except "Kenny". Kenny was young, wearing a typical Seattle mophead wool beanie and hoody, the exact stereotype of person you think about posting insane crap on the internet, and said this to his face, everyone got a laugh, he likes the current PVP in the DZ because he can do one thing regular agents cant, and that is fire first from behind.

    SO we discussed that one aspect, the gank from behind and we made "Kenny" our whipping dog, him smiling the whole time. Kenny stated that the ability to gank first, to fire from behind was crucial to him buying the game. The mechanic is perfect for his type of play as he only likes PVP and said he wouldnt likely play the game. Keep in mind the language and schooling were not on par with what one would think a person should use during conversation, so I embelish sane words and punctuation as most of the kids vocabulary was "cool" and "brah" and some lesser potty mouth language he obviously thought was a norm so that you the reader understand.

    Anyway, so we had 5 folks, including a clerk in on the conversation. No one was opposed at all to PVP in the DZ, the problem lay with the less educated developers choices on why they would implement a system like they did. We brought up controversy to gain exposure......seemed like a good call, then we hashed around the bad word of mouth, so that is a 50/50 bet on whether the coverage would result in more sales. We wont know until Ubisoft releases numbers.

    We talked about the first strike gank ability verse the gamer that wants to play the game and remain in character, and Agent verse the Rogue. The Rogue is in a win win at al times, the Agent is not. The agent cant clear a DZ extraction to rpovide safety without going rogue, a penalty, the Agent cannot help friends hunt down a know ganker without going rogue, a penalty. The Agent cannot clear a group or player following to ensure their safety, knowing the other player by either name or simply actions is going to kill them without going rogue, yet another penalty.

    The Rogue on the other hand is not worried about game lore, does not care about being an agent, no penalty. The Rogue can pick and choose their engagement scenario, no penalty. The Rogue can kill and extract on the spot if at an extraction point, no penalty. The Rogue can kill faster as they get first strike capability and in most scenarios will win, no penalty. The Rogue knows most agents will not shoot first, no penalty. The Rogue has a timer..........a timer.........a timer and if they kill enough, an icon that shows up on the map, a nearly non existent penatly for achieving the ability to claim alot of agent lives.

    We agreed the first gank mentality that brought in a bunch of gamers like "Kenny", he laughed at this and grinned ear to ear. We agreed the developers need to come up with something different because the DZ will not survive on its own with the current mechanics. Only one side profits, and that side ruins th game for alot of folks, seeing that money is Ubisofts main goal.

    We came to a consensus and I asked "Kenny"what he would do when the DZ was empty? He said he would move back to his regular games or wait for another to come along. He laughed about being a **** but said he pays money too so the fun should be his and how he chooses. We laughed at that and after nearly 90 minutes we said our goodbyes and the two that were there to buy the pre-order game still did, though they said they wouldn't use the DZ until it got "Fixed"

    So what do we see? Rogues were a nifty idea, poorly executed by heads in the sky developers. No idea goes unpunished, and word of mouth and posts have indeed hurt the game sales.

    The first gank ability the developers created made a rift between those that want to play the lore and play as an agent, its called immersion, and the small amount of players simply there in the DZ to gank and grab loot, that could care less about game mechanics and game lore as long as they get their gank fix. Thats the biggest gripe we all had during that convo.

    I suggested this "repair" to the DZ very early on and many players have posted the idea as their own. So I will retype it, and claim the idea as it makes the most sense among the hundreds already out there.

    Make the gank community a target. Give them the ability to choose a faction and run around being little monsters like they want and let the agents and them fight to their hearts content. No more free ganking, the lore stays fixed, there is draw for both sides, missions make more sense, even in pvp form.........again, why this wasn't done is beyond me.

    Some stupid *** developer thought ganking would bring in large crowds, they were wrong. The idea above, is the way to fix the DZ, still let the gankers try and gank though they will have a harder time but they will have tons of perks. unique weapons, no nametags, the ability to draw on npcs for support or simply blend into npcs, plus, if the developers pulled their heads out of their nether regions the little animals could gain something like elite status becoming more powerful until they became a boss like player and then like the "rogue hunts" the agents have to kill the big sob, hell make it a mobile raid. of course, power being lost on death but the rewards for both sides?.....that's for the silly developers with no common sense to decide.

    Yes I love bashing these developers because their idea and execution of the DZ simply sucks.
    I understand what you are saying, tho no matter how you try to twist and turn it rogues will always land the first bullet. the only "fix" to this is either remove pvp completely and make it in to a "not so dark-zone" or remove the rogue system and turn it in to a GTAO Chaos cluster **** FFA.. which isn't fun either as there is no penelty for killing another player.
    As it is now is fine, you just have to be paranoid at EPs meaning if someone else is on the EP that isn't in your group you ping them as a potential ganker, easy way to fix this is to have 1-2 players in the group stand guard while ther other 1-2 in the group puts the pack one and then switch.
    For accidental rogue.. well its easy just learn to control your fire, its that easy.
    And if the group/person you shot to get rogue is some what reasonable you can even say sorry and just let the timer run out.

    In both Betas me and my friends treated every single person we met as a potential ganker, and guess what we never got ganked because we played smart.
    towards the end of cbt (and the entire OBT) we were the ones that ganked.. we went after people that didn't pay attention on EPs, people that annoyed us (mic open 24/7), people that wasn't carefull as in people that thought that running passed/through us without a care in the world was a good a idea.

    TL;DR
    DZ is fine, Rogue is fine
    There is no good "fix" for DZ
    Control your fire.
    If you go rogue by accident, don't shoot and say sorry. It can get you off the hook.
    Be paranoid in the DZ.
    Treat all players as rogues even if they don't have a rogue status.
    Doing this will give you the least ammount of grief in the DZ.
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  8. #8
    Summarizing the OP's post: It is not nice to shoot and kill someone from behind thus should be removed from The Division.

    The DZ is all about uncertainty. The only advice I can offer is... "watch yo back!"

    When you see someone walking on the same sidewalk as you, cross the street. Stay alert. Know your surroundings. If things go south, know your exit strategy.

    I would never let any one just casually walk behind me to align for a kill. Now that's just irresponsible on my part.
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  9. #9
    RJ_McCat's Avatar Member
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    The DZ outside of a few bug fixes is fine, the folks calling for changes are normally the hard core PVP wankers that will be gone as soon as they either get boarded or one of the more PVP centered games come out.
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  10. #10
    TC.. You sound like an old man. Do you even gym, bro?
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