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  1. #51
    Assassin_M's Avatar AC Expert
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    Originally Posted by ze_topazio Go to original post
    But hey, I'm sure the people being hanged are overjoyed to know their government financed great movies in the past, just like I'm sure the Jews being gassed were proud of the support the Nazi government gave to the German automotive industry.
    Bit of an extreme comparison there.
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  2. #52
    ze_topazio's Avatar Senior Member
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    Comparisons need to be extreme to cause impact.
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  3. #53
    Assassin_M's Avatar AC Expert
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    Originally Posted by ze_topazio Go to original post
    Comparisons need to be extreme to cause impact.
    So no heed should be paid to possibly undermining what happened to the Jews or painting an inaccurate picture? Okie dokie. Next time, when I see people comparing the US to the Mongol Empire, I wont say anything.
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  4. #54
    ze_topazio's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Assassin_M Go to original post
    So no heed should be paid to possibly undermining what happened to the Jews or painting an inaccurate picture? Okie dokie.
    I don't really think I did that though, I think diminishing the bad side of a regime because some good filmmakers happen to flourish during that time is a bit more weird, therefore my comparison, Hitler and his cronies did some good things too, I don't think I ever saw anyone diminishing all the terribleness because of that, maybe some delusional neo-nazis but that's it.

    Nothing new to me though, I see people in my country all the time trying to excuse our old dictator based on some random good things he did, many of those "good things" actually being either just propaganda or things that he was actually not responsible for, I think I actually have seen some people mentioning, our greatest singer and best Football player as good points of the regime, like the regime had anything to with it.


    Originally Posted by Assassin_M Go to original post
    Next time, when I see people comparing the US to the Mongol Empire, I wont say anything.
    I don't care, I'm not American.
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  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by ze_topazio Go to original post
    I don't really think I did that though, I think diminishing the bad side of a regime because some good filmmakers happen to flourish during that time is a bit more weird, therefore my comparison, Hitler and his cronies did some good things too, I don't think I ever saw anyone diminishing all the terribleness because of that, maybe some delusional neo-nazis but that's it.
    Which I don't think was Vestigial's intent. The reddit-esque secular mentality of objectivity of morality is flawed. I wont go on a rant, but why is cutting off the hand of a thief barbaric? Because your penal system chooses to lock people up instead? Projecting subjective cultural idioms in a discussion about laws is not debate, it's locking out all perspectives but your own. Yeah Iran has some effed up laws from some views and has an objectively terrible track record when it comes to human rights issues, but that wasn't what I argued against.

    Nothing new to me though, I see people in my country all the time trying to excuse our old dictator based on some random good things he did, many of those "good things" actually being either just propaganda or things that he was actually not responsible for, I think I actually have seen some people mentioning, our greatest singer and best Football player as good points of the regime, like the regime had anything to with it.
    What Vestigial was trying to do is show how biased media can portray an entire cultural and country as a hellhole. Did you know that Iran is a leader in stem cell research? Did you know that they're the second highest country with gender change operations that are actually state funded? Of course not.
    I don't care, I'm not American.
    You will be soon....They're the Mongols and Mongols eat up everything in their way.
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  6. #56
    I-Like-Pie45's Avatar Senior Member
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    Assassin M, you're just jealous that America has made more contributions in the 20th century and beyond to global security, peace, and economic stability than the Iron Sheik ever will
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  7. #57
    ze_topazio's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Assassin_M Go to original post
    Which I don't think was Vestigial's intent. The reddit-esque secular mentality of objectivity of morality is flawed. I wont go on a rant, but why is cutting off the hand of a thief barbaric? Because your penal system chooses to lock people up instead? Projecting subjective cultural idioms in a discussion about laws is not debate, it's locking out all perspectives but your own. Yeah Iran has some effed up laws from some views and has an objectively terrible track record when it comes to human rights issues, but that wasn't what I argued against.


    What Vestigial was trying to do is show how biased media can portray an entire cultural and country as a hellhole. Did you know that Iran is a leader in stem cell research? Did you know that they're the second highest country with gender change operations that are actually state funded? Of course not.

    You will be soon....They're the Mongols and Mongols eat up everything in their way.
    Cultural differences aside there are some limits and things we can all agree, we are humans after all.

    I can't agree with cutting the hand of a thief, if the point of punishment is teaching a lesson, even if the thief learns the lesson, without a hand the thief won't be able to get a proper job and will have to resort to crime again, the death penalty is even worse, even you learn your lesson, you're dead.
    Incarceration is far from perfect but at least at end you're intact and alive.

    Actually I did knew that, read it somewhere once.

    I also know Afghanistan is the number one producer of pomegranates, or was before the war, a random bit of trivia that I learned years ago and remember every single time I eat a pomegranate, because of all the things that I could memorize, my brain decided that I needed to remember this for the rest of my live above all, I mean, I rarely can remember my mother's exact birthday but I can't forget that Afghanistan is the number one producer of pomegranates and automatically recall it every time I see one of those fruits.

    This Neo-Mongols only eat hamburgers so I'm safe.
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  8. #58
    Assassin_M's Avatar AC Expert
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    Originally Posted by ze_topazio Go to original post
    Cultural differences aside there are some limits and things we can all agree, we are humans after all.
    Sure.

    I can't agree with cutting the hand of a thief, if the point of punishment is teaching a lesson, even if the thief learns the lesson, without a hand the thief won't be able to get a proper job and will have to resort to crime again, the death penalty is even worse, even you learn your lesson, you're dead.
    Incarceration is far from perfect but at least at end you're intact and alive.
    Ah, see? I disagree with that because:

    1) I have more knowledge about the actual law and how it's supposed to be enacted.
    2) I think locking someone up is more barbaric and is even more of a stigma that hinders finding a job.

    Yes, all humans can mostly agree on a limit. Do people in Iran or Saudi Arabia want to see hundreds of people walking around with chopped hands? Of course not, because that's not how the law is applied. If that was the case, it'd go completely against the spirit of the law, which is to act as a deterrent. You can't just throw around a contextual axiom at another perspective or ideology and act like there's an objective contest involved. You're basically saying "Why are your views not like mine?" simply because you and I happen to live in the 21st century.


    Actually I did knew that, read it somewhere once.
    Well, most people don't. Ask anyone, all they know about places like Iran and SA are that you get stoned (no, not that stoned) and get your hands cut off. It's in every depiction of the region, every children's cartoons from the late 90s.

    I also know Afghanistan is the number one producer of pomegranates, or was before the war, a random bit of trivia that I learned years ago and remember every single time I eat a pomegranate, because of all the things that I could memorize, my brain decided that I needed to remember this for the rest of my live above all, I mean, I rarely can remember my mother's exact birthday but I can't forget that Afghanistan is the number one producer of pomegranates and automatically recall it every time I see one of those fruits.
    It's like that catchy commercial song that has no business playing inside your head.

    This Neo-Mongols only eat hamburgers so I'm safe.
    They've already imported it to you....you are them, the great devil.
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  9. #59
    Originally Posted by ze_topazio Go to original post
    If the only way to make, the way, the government of Iran in 2015, treats its people, seem not so bad, is by comparing it with mid XIX century USA or the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, then, that says a lot.
    Actually it does say a lot. The fact is the Iranian government and its people are considered "other" separate and not part of general references. A lot of people think of Rome and the American South in the best possible light. Rome is considered this great civilization and all the atrocities committed by them are usually explained as "it was part of the time" and "general context", the American South is described in the same way, hence movies like Gone With The Wind. These eras are shown positively in a lot of movies and books, you have many people lamenting the Fall of the Roman Empire.

    But when it comes time to history outside that reference they resort to utter trash like 300, a movie which glorifies a bunch of psychopathic slaveowners against an Empire that was actually abolitionist, refined and multi-cultural. In this movie the Persians are a bunch of monsters and oriental stereotypes, because the Ancient Greeks (not modern ones, the West certainly doesn't care about modern Greeks) are supposed to have invented democracy (in a form that is totally not democratic by any modern definition), they are the "good guys", even if it's the Spartans, aka the civilization that hunted slaves for sport. There was an American writer who was more nuanced, Gore Vidal whose book CREATION dealt with this era with complexity and sympathy for the Persians, but nobody is giving millions of dollars to make that into a movie now are they? You have ARGO which whitewashes and indulges in the same "Us and Them" divide.

    But hey, I'm sure the people being hanged are overjoyed to know their government financed great movies in the past, just like I'm sure the Jews being gassed were proud of the support the Nazi government gave to the German automotive industry.
    Well the Indians and the Irish were quite gratified and pleased by the literature of their British colonial masters in the 19th Century, as were the Vietnamese and the Algerians with the French. The USSR made a lot of terrific films too, the Ancient Greeks which thrived on slavery wrote a lot of great plays and built monuments with slave labor (which the Egyptians, contrary to general belief, did not do). Hollywood made a lot of great films despite indulging in horrible stereotypes against minorities and women for nearly 100 years.

    So let's not clutch those pearls.
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  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Assassin_M Go to original post
    Which I don't think was Vestigial's intent. The reddit-esque secular mentality of objectivity of morality is flawed. I wont go on a rant, but why is cutting off the hand of a thief barbaric? Because your penal system chooses to lock people up instead? Projecting subjective cultural idioms in a discussion about laws is not debate, it's locking out all perspectives but your own. Yeah Iran has some effed up laws from some views and has an objectively terrible track record when it comes to human rights issues, but that wasn't what I argued against.
    Originally Posted by Assassin_M Go to original post

    Ah, see? I disagree with that because:

    1) I have more knowledge about the actual law and how it's supposed to be enacted.
    2) I think locking someone up is more barbaric and is even more of a stigma that hinders finding a job.

    Yes, all humans can mostly agree on a limit. Do people in Iran or Saudi Arabia want to see hundreds of people walking around with chopped hands? Of course not, because that's not how the law is applied. If that was the case, it'd go completely against the spirit of the law, which is to act as a deterrent. You can't just throw around a contextual axiom at another perspective or ideology and act like there's an objective contest involved. You're basically saying "Why are your views not like mine?" simply because you and I happen to live in the 21st century.

    This is a bit backwards. Atheists typically do not believe in objective morality. On the contrary one common argument from theists against atheism is some version of "only God can constitute a foundation for objective morality". Now some atheists think that you can say some objective things based on the well being of sentient creatures (which seems reasonable to me). However those truths are very hard to translate into specific laws. And of course morality is constantly evolving in our societies. Just as one example the way homosexuals are treated have changed dramatically in the last fifty years. The way to progress ethics is through rational discussion and reason. The should be done in the spirit of increasing the quality of life for people/animals NOT in an attempt to best interpret ancient scripture. The reason Iran has the punishment of amputation is NOT because of rational discussion or public discourse. It's because it says so in 7th century book and that book is believed to be the perfect word of God. If that isn't a belief in objective morality I don't know what is.


    The reason I write off amputation as medieval barbarism is not because I think it's objectively wrong by some law of nature. I just think it's not an interesting discussion to have anymore. Just as don't think it's interesting to discuss if it's moral to beat your wife if she isn't obedient, or if people who decide to leave a certain faith should be killed. I think all of those practices are appalling. That doesn't mean that there aren't also good rational arguments. Let's take amputation as an example. As Ze mentioned cutting off someones hand is very problematic for rehabilitation (that you think otherwise is completely mindboggling to me). There are several jobs that are impossible (or at least very hard) to perform with one hand (like driving a car, being a carpenter, cleaning, working with keyboard and mouse and so on). Prison (at least in Sweden) is a place for rehabilitation. Secondly it's not a proportional punishment for the act of stealing (I'd rather lose all my material possessions over my hand).
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