Post your AI "Minion" Ideas | Forums

[guest-r22Cs27m]

PvP in this game was fantastic when I played it at PAX this year, however the minion soldiers seemed semi-pointless and repetitive to kill. Its early in development so I'm not really concerned based on that, but it is pretty clear for the full release of the game some attention needs to be put in that realm to make it interesting.

As it was, it was just keep hitting the quick attack button and you kill them instantly. They also don't attack in a group, but take turns 1 by 1. This isn't very fun, nor does it seem to match how an actual group of soldiers fights, unlike the attention that has been put into PvP dueling. There's also a practically endless stream of them coming in and they don't really push one base or not. They have the stormtrooper/redshirt effect of being harmless bodies to be slaughtered rather than a threat or challenge.

So I wanted to start a thread for ideas to enhance this aspect of the game. The goals to improve minion experience, particularly in the following categories:

1. Types of minions
2. PvE fighting controls
3. Minion scripting/balance/routes
4. Minion map/game types
5. Realism

PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR IDEAS!

As a starting point, I think of common group fighting tactics that are challenging/interesting like the shield wall or alexander's porcupine formation. Instead of having a player charge through the center of 50 soldiers unharmed and having the AI just step out of the way, the shield wall could be a solid block that you'd have to fight your way through or run completely around. It would create a physical barrier between control zones with tactical implications on a match. It also means you would need to actively manage the fight in the middle so you don't get pushed back.

There could be different types of soldiers (archers, spearmen, swordsmen, engineers, standard bearers, captains) that play a different role. Different roles mean they could be different tactics on how to "break the lines". Possibly building on the honor/fear system, AI soldiers could become less effective or turn and retreat if you eliminate key figures like a standard bearer or captain (or maybe executing another player causes fear).

Objects like a siege tower that need to get pushed into place at a wall by a certain period of time would make players focus on managing the soldiers/fight as a tug of war game type. This would be interested if there were side control zones with towers full of archers or side gates that dumped out more soldiers of the side controlling it. Making holding a zone provide AI resources that effect the game more than just points accruing.

By creating more Interesting AI fighting, it makes player selection/powers more interesting. Character abilities like calling down a hail of arrows is now useful as an AI management skill. This could lead to some warrior classes that are more geared to AI and less at dueling, making team composition interesting since there'd be duelists, supporting, and hybrid classes. (this assumes there are different classes or weapon/ability load-outs rather than just 1 knight/1 samurai/1 viking)

For actual player to AI Minion interaction, simply hitting quick attack over and over for an instant kill needs to change. Since there is a giant sword you are swinging, you'd think there could be a swing that hits multiple minions at once. Maybe if you do a Top attack on the minion, it breaks their shield, but if you do a side attack it doesn't break the shield and knocks them back. Maybe there could be a charge attack that would burst through a shield wall.

What if you could earn bodyguards that follow you around and assist you? Or issue commands to soldiers nearby you? Possibly if you fight around soldiers you gain influence with them and they follow you. This allows strategies of staying in the middle for a while then charging to an objective with 10 AI minions that help you hold the zone.

These are all just some ideas to get the conversation rolling. Add to them, tear them apart, or agree!

[MisterWillow]

I'd like to say, first, that this is a more interesting take on the AI and their function than most of the others I recall, which boiled down to 'make them stronger' or something. I'm a bit torn, though, on not only the criticism but also the proposed fixes presented.

For example, the idea that they should be any more than fodder is, I think, distracting from the main focus, which are the player duels, but that also doesn't mean, necessarily, that they are worthless. From what I've seen, they are there, primarily, to allow your team to hold Zone A. If you notice, your team doesn't capture that point by having a person stand in it like the other two points, but by clearing out the enemy fodder. Secondarily, they provide your team with some easy points for killing them, and they can unlock Feats if you kill enough of them (there's a small bar under the next Feat that fills). They're also there to provide a bit of battlefield atmosphere, which is appreciated.

As a starting point, I think of common group fighting tactics that are challenging/interesting like the shield wall or alexander's porcupine formation. Instead of having a player charge through the center of 50 soldiers unharmed and having the AI just step out of the way, the shield wall could be a solid block that you'd have to fight your way through or run completely around. It would create a physical barrier between control zones with tactical implications on a match. It also means you would need to actively manage the fight in the middle so you don't get pushed back.

I agree it would be more interesting if the AI used actual tactics, but how much it would actually achieve is debatable. In the one map I've seen, though I'm sure it will apply to other maps as well, there are multiple ways to get across the map, and it would, therefore, be fairly easy to get around any formation and disrupt it.

I also don't think it's a case of 'charging through the center of 50 soldiers unharmed and having the AI just step out of the way'. The AI are capable of hurting you if you don't deal with them. For example:



This player loses an entire bar of health by focusing on another player and ignoring the AI. Maybe if they were a tad more aggressive, but that's really the only tweak I'd like, seeing as, if they were more aggressive and another player was there as well, you might not have a chance, which I think would detract from the dueling. Maybe there's an argument that it's a matter of strategy---and that you shouldn't try fighting someone at Zone A---but if they're too strong, that could stop people from venturing into the melee at all.

There could be different types of soldiers (archers, spearmen, swordsmen, engineers, standard bearers, captains) that play a different role. Different roles mean they could be different tactics on how to "break the lines". Possibly building on the honor/fear system, AI soldiers could become less effective or turn and retreat if you eliminate key figures like a standard bearer or captain (or maybe executing another player causes fear).

That could be interesting, too. Maybe not the archers, but if there were some spearmen intermixed with the sword and shield troops, it would, at the very least, break a monotony within their look. Of course, there could be other maps that have different mobs in them, but it would be nice to have a variety within a single battle.

Not really sure I like the idea of 'tactics' being involved in dealing with them. They are, in the end, fodder. You'd need to be able to lock onto them and use the Art of Battle on them for meaningful strategy to be considered. I do like the idea that defeating an enemy player inducing fear, though. The mental image of the enemy scattering and/or retreating after killing one of their 'Heroes' would add a real visual dynamic to the fight, and give you a psychological boost.

Objects like a siege tower that need to get pushed into place at a wall by a certain period of time would make players focus on managing the soldiers/fight as a tug of war game type. This would be interested if there were side control zones with towers full of archers or side gates that dumped out more soldiers of the side controlling it. Making holding a zone provide AI resources that effect the game more than just points accruing.

A mode we haven't seen could already have something like that in it. There have been plenty of suggestions for a Battlefield-style Rush mode, where you'd progress through a map and have different objectives at certain points. Protecting and/or positioning siege towers sounds like a great first-stage objective for such a mode.

Speaking of other modes, we've only seen the one, and there could be others where the AI is a bit more important.

By creating more Interesting AI fighting, it makes player selection/powers more interesting. Character abilities like calling down a hail of arrows is now useful as an AI management skill. This could lead to some warrior classes that are more geared to AI and less at dueling, making team composition interesting since there'd be duelists, supporting, and hybrid classes. (this assumes there are different classes or weapon/ability load-outs rather than just 1 knight/1 samurai/1 viking)

There are. The devs have already confirmed there are multiple classes per faction and there's a thread over here speculating on what those might be. Assuming any of that speculation is correct, classes with polearms will be very good at crowd control, and so would be very well suited for wading through the AI and clearing them out, but they could also be better suited to fighting multiple players at the same time.

As far as the high-level Feats go, I guess they could be used for both clearing out the AI and taking out players; it all depends on circumstance and what you want to accomplish.

For actual player to AI Minion interaction, simply hitting quick attack over and over for an instant kill needs to change. Since there is a giant sword you are swinging, you'd think there could be a swing that hits multiple minions at once. Maybe if you do a Top attack on the minion, it breaks their shield, but if you do a side attack it doesn't break the shield and knocks them back. Maybe there could be a charge attack that would burst through a shield wall.

Meh. Fighting the AI seems a bit like playing Dynasty Warriors. There's a bunch of them, they don't hurt you too much, and it could be boring, but that's a matter of opinion, as there's plenty of people who get every single Dynasty/Samurai/Hyrule Warriors (Orochi) game because they like doing that. A point in For Honor's favour is that the reactions from said AI is much better. They don't just get knocked back and fall down. They all have three or four death animations depending on how the player hits them.

What if you could earn bodyguards that follow you around and assist you? Or issue commands to soldiers nearby you? Possibly if you fight around soldiers you gain influence with them and they follow you. This allows strategies of staying in the middle for a while then charging to an objective with 10 AI minions that help you hold the zone.

I do like the idea, but again, they're fodder, and unless they're buffed while with you they'd be slaughtered the moment you met another player---maybe not immediately, as that player would probably be focused on you, but they wouldn't be too hard to deal with---but that could lead to them being underestimated, so they might help you more than I imagine simply by being an annoyance.

I have been thinking that the 'rally troops' Feat you get seems like it doesn't do anything meaningful (maybe I'm just missing something), so gaining a couple AI to follow you around for a bit could be added to that.