What can be learned from Rainbow Six Siege in regards to Wildlands? | Forums

[DanHibikiFanXM]

Full disclosure - after playing the Rainbow Six Siege beta all of my fears were realized regarding that title. Siege is a complete mess that lacks content for the asking price and changes the game fundamentally from a tactical shooter into what many people have called "CS:GO w/ 'Splosions!" Some on other tactical shooter web forums have gone so far as to conclude that Siege might actually equal or usurp Lockdown as the worst Rainbow Six ever created...and I fully agree. This in turn has made me even more skeptical of Ubisoft (I didn't know such a thing was possible) and their judgement regarding game design for TC franchises. HOWEVER...since I don't want to be a complete Negative-Nancy I wanted to highlight some of the absolute worst things about Siege which IMO must be avoided if Wildlands wants to rekindle what Future Soldier destroyed.

Solo Content: This is obviously the biggest thing that Siege has neglected and is one of the things which has fractured the potential player base of that game. From what I understand there IS going to be a substantial solo component to Wildlands but I still have to emphasize this point. Siege has practically ZERO solo content. You either play the "story" or Terrorist Hunt mode as a lone wolf (in a squad based CQB shooter???) or you are forced to play co-op; either with people you know or with randoms that will team kill you and/or do everything but play tactically/cooperatively with you.

Now this isn't so much a desire to have a "story" but just meaningful solo content. As a franchise that was at one time a forerunner in the tactical shooter genre (a LONG time ago...) this means having a team/squad of friendly AI to command in whatever fashion you see fit is a MUST HAVE. Future Soldier's "Easy Button" approach (my nickname for it) to squad commands will not suffice for me personally. I ask for something that is at least as competent or capable as the context sensitive command system in GR2/SS...ideally in conjunction with a map based system like in OGR/IT for more complex maneuvers. This game needs SOMETHING to keep us non-PvP types that are more concerned over strategy than racking up kills in PvP.

TO BE FAIR AND TO REPEAT...there is apparently going to be some type of solo experience. That said if it isn't meaningful or interesting then count many people out.

No "Operator" System: This is another huge thing that has soured many gamers to the Siege experience. To put it bluntly, the operator system is a complete farce that arbitrarily restricts the tactical freedom and self expression of the players. For those that don't know what I'm talking about the operator system is essentially a character system (not unlike what you might find in a MOBA...seriously) where the selectable characters have pre-determined loadouts and skills. Each operator has their own specific look, weapons, and a unique gadget or ability that provides some kind of tactical edge.

Theoretically this sounds like an interesting concept but it SUCKS in practice due to how restrictive it is. A character can only be selected by ONE player which means if your favorite character/loadout is taken you have to make due with someone else. The "recruit" characters are not acceptable replacements as they are unable to use the special abilities of the normal characters which in a way kind of makes the operator system pointless. In addition, though you may like a character's special ability you might dislike their selection of weapons which can just muddy things up.

Another frustrating aspect is that at any one time in Siege only HALF of the selectable cast is playable as the operators are split between "attackers" and "defenders." Even in PvE modes like Terrorist Hunt only the attackers are selectable even though the defenders have gadgets (like the medic, Doc) that could be useful and tactical. Also the operators retain the iconic looks of their native units (but...aren't they in RAINBOW?!) which can cause huge issues with identifying targets especially in PvE. The characters are random looking between the players and the lack of a clear IFF tag or identifier means that friendly fire is a serious problem even without trolls intentionally doing it.

If they want to have pre-determined characters in Wildlands then this is my suggestion...do NOT limit their abilities or weapons. Keep them as blank slates so the player and not the game decides and determines how they want to play.

No "Gamey" Enemy Types: Suicide bombers. If you haven't played Siege's TH then you don't know the struggle. For those that are unfamiliar with these enemies they are, for lack of a proper description, explosive Juggernauts from Call of Duty. They wear hazmat suits and are equipped with an assault rifle and explosives tied around their bodies. They are identified by Darth Vader-esque breathing sounds and goofy lights on their heads. These enemies do not behave like the other standard enemies (that take cover and shoot their primary weapons)...their main method of attack is to blindly charge at you and detonate their explosives.

This sounds simple to counter but it's not always. First and foremost the suicide bombers can only reliably be killed by headshots from ARs and LMGs...if you shoot center mass you will NOT bring them down. Literally you can put an entire magazine of 5.56mm in their chest cavity and they will charge through it and blow you up so headshots are the ONLY answer. Pistols are only somewhat effective and shotguns are borderline useless (which, again, restricts players' choice especially if going lone wolf). Sometimes their obvious audio and visual giveaways (breathing sounds and lights) are not always apparent and it's possible to accidentally find yourself face to face with a suicide bomber ending in a frustrating and cheap death.

The only safe way to deal with these crappy enemies is to attack them as you would monsters in an MMORPG...you have to "pull" these enemies. The best way is to lure them out into some type of open area and once they start charging you then go for the headshot with your AR. This is not only annoying but it also breaks immersion. Doing this also completely screws up the flow of room clearing and CQB and forces (generally) one style of play.

Do NOT have an enemy type like this. A suicide bomber enemy type isn't a bad thing but don't make them so video gamey in their ability to shrug off rounds and force a singular method of dispatching them.

Refine the Shooting Mechanics: Rainbow Six Siege is one of the sloppiest shooters I've played in a long time in terms of weapon handling and shooting. The weapons have very little muzzle climb/drift and are very comparable to the way weapons feel in Battlefield or COD. In other words there is very little to learn or manage in regard to the way the weapons feel when you shoot them. There's not much difference in the way a FAMAS feels as opposed to an AUG.

In addition the ADS is extraordinarily sloppy. The biggest and most noticeable issue is this delay between when you hit/pull the ADS button/trigger and when the weapon actually comes up. It takes roughly a second or so for the ADS to happen and it is a very strange thing to overcome. While it IS possible to become accustomed to it (if you play enough) it still never quite feels right. In addition, doing the ADS (at least on consoles) makes ridiculous amounts of auto-aim occur in the exact same way as it does in COD. For those that are unfamiliar in COD everytime you ADS the game automatically snaps you onto the nearest target and that's exactly how it happens in Siege. It's not great and, again, limits the possible skill gap.

TL;DR - don't do what Siege did.

[strigoi1958]

Wow that's long... I'll be brief

Playing R6S beta loving it and don't know what anyone can conclude from 1 tiny piece of a game....
now I'm sceptical about you

I love the way you describe suicide bomber then explain exactly what a suicide bomber does then say they don't behave like other standard enemies... so what you mean is in real life, suicide bombers shouldn't try to get close to the enemy and detonate themselves and others they should just wait around o be shot... thanks that made my day... perhaps kamikaze pilots should have stayed at the airfield and waited for the warships to ram them

[DanHibikiFanXM]

Wow that's long... I'll be brief

Playing R6S beta loving it and don't know what anyone can conclude from 1 tiny piece of a game....
now I'm sceptical about you

I love the way you describe suicide bomber then explain exactly what a suicide bomber does then say they don't behave like other standard enemies... so what you mean is in real life, suicide bombers shouldn't try to get close to the enemy and detonate themselves and others they should just wait around o be shot... thanks that made my day... perhaps kamikaze pilots should have stayed at the airfield and waited for the warships to ram them

EDIT: Was a bit harsh originally so I cleaned it up...when did I say anything regarding the fact I didn't like the enemy type being in the game or the tactics they employed (hint: I didn't)? I dislike that you can put an entire mag into their chest cavity and it doesn't even seem to cause them any discomfort. I dislike that certain weapons like pistols and shotguns are almost completely ineffective against them which limits the amount of weapon options available to solo players. I dislike that because of these things you have to employ an MMORPG strategy to take them out instead of the normal room clearing that happens within the context of a Rainbow Six title.

You don't have to agree but I at least ask that you understand the argument.

[strigoi1958]

so far I have found tactics work better on different AI. The Bombers need to have a safe distance between you and them... I tag them and when they are near a door or window shoot once through the barricade then go back and get in cover... they break the barricade and 4 or 5 short bursts to the chest kills them as the recoil lifts the barrel up to their head. Dead before they reach you... thicker armour means they require more shots... or use the sniper type rifle with a single shot and fire 2 or 3 into the head.... others I find stun and run by tagging them, throwing in a stun grenade and following in and killing everyone... but this is the wrong forum to discuss it.

[capedcrusader93]

Good in-depth write up. I pretty much have the same issues with Siege that you do.

I completely agree with you in regards to pre-determined characters. I really hope that Wildlands allows us to freely choose what kind of equipment we want to use.

I'm really looking forward to Wildlands. I was absolutely blown away by the E3 trailer. Hopefully we get some new information about the game soon.

[UbiBooma]

If you guys want to discuss Siege please do so here:

http://forums.ubi.com/forumdisplay.php/64-Rainbow-Six

I understand the intention here is to discuss how the Siege beta MIGHT foreshadow some issues that MIGHT come up in Wildlands. However, that kind of speculation is likely to have some lost in translation issues. Wildlands is different in many respects. Again, we have an entire forum dedicated to Siege and a subforum dedicated to the beta. No problem continuing this discussion but I wanted to remind you guys of that.

[DanHibikiFanXM]

Yes, the point of this thread is to not discuss Siege per se but to talk about possible overlaps in basic game design. Since I found little enjoyment in Siege my views are going to be negative but counter arguments and/or advocating for things that were successes in Siege are totally cool with me. The things I described above (the lack of meaningful solo content, "video gamey" enemy types, and the lack of a real skill gap with weapons) are all things that could definitely affect Wildlands.

[Lolssi]

Good write up.
Personally on the operator issue I'd like to go back to old days where you choose your operators from list and then gear them up. Unfortunately story on Wildlands doesn't seem to support that. Perhaps they could air drop replacement if you loose one of your guys?
Or what if one of you gets injured and has to sit out mission because he is wounded. Or how would you even find safe hospital if it gets so critical?

[UbiKeeba]

One thing that you may want to consider is that Wildlands is a different game, being made by a different studio than Rainbow Six: Siege.

That being said, the R6 beta was just that, a beta. It was not an early access to the full game, it was, in fact, a true beta test. Betas will be rocky, because we're testing server capacity, assessing balance, and hunting for any bugs that might have slipped through the cracks. Using the beta test as an example of what the final product will be is a little premature.

Nevertheless, you raise some interesting points and you've clearly put a lot of effort into your post. Thank you for sharing your opinions with us.