For Honor Dual Gameplay Commentaries | Forums

[MisterWillow]

In this case, what would prevent players from simply mashing flicks to get the parry? A cooldown?

Assuming there is a very narrow window for the input to register as a parry, rather than a block---which I think is a pretty safe bet, since otherwise parrying would be too easy---nothing but the fact that parrying a blow requires superb timing.

If you're spamming the stick in a certain direction, you might block them, but your chance of parrying would be next to impossible. You'd be waiting for the proverbial stars to align while stuck playing defense.

[Mr_Moonstone]

What do you mean by that? That the input should be early, or late?

Early.

A literal flick of the stick for performing a parry seems unreliable gameplay-wise since you may end up defending to the wrong side by accident. So I would go for in-gate-shifting with precise timing.

[Altair_Snake]

Assuming there is a very narrow window for the input to register as a parry, rather than a block---which I think is a pretty safe bet, since otherwise parrying would be too easy---nothing but the fact that parrying a blow requires superb timing.

If you're spamming the stick in a certain direction, you might block them, but your chance of parrying would be next to impossible. You'd be waiting for the proverbial stars to align while stuck playing defense.

Quite the opposite. It's like shooting a guy with a shot gun. If you can spam flicks, this favors you and it's gimmicky. Some fight games allow this kind of "timing". Being able to mash does help.

Only in very extreme cases not mashing is better. These are cases of trully superb timing, but definitely not the kind of timing I wan in For Honor, since it's a complex melee game with 8 players. Latency matters more than usual and is harder to avoid (compensate) than in shooters. The more the stary from using sharp timing, the better.

So, if they go with a flick, I think making it not so sharp and adding a cooldown would be the way to go.

And I'm now remembering how some Oni executed some parries, without their HUD shifting/bliking. This is a clue against the flicking hypothesis. However, it's possible that players can flick quickly enough so that the Oni can keep his stance (instead of returning to neutral and getting back to the stance).

[MisterWillow]

Quite the opposite. It's like shooting a guy with a shot gun. If you can spam flicks, this favors you and it's gimmicky. Some fight games allow this kind of "timing". Being able to mash does help.

The only fighting game I can think of (off the top of my head) where spamming presses favours you is Dead or Alive, where you can spam for a reversal, and that only works, really, because they give you an enormous window for it to be effective.

I recently finished Styx: Master of Shadows, and I was thinking of that parry system, in terms of timing, in relation to how parrying would work here. Anyone who's played that will tell you that it is incredibly disadvantageous to mash the parry button. It might work every once in a while, but you really have to have your timing down to do good in a duel.

And I think 'flick' is the wrong word, at least as a literal descriptor. What I mean is just you time your stick movement in the direction of an incoming attack, from it's neutral position---that is, the same movement to make your character guard in a direction, just in time with the strike. So, in my previous explanation, you hold guard in a direction, see the attack coming from that direction, relax your thumb for a moment and then move it back in that direction quickly. Obviously a literal flick would be too inaccurate to be reliable. Sorry for the confusion, but I'm at a loss for a better word.

Latency matters more than usual and is harder to avoid (compensate) than in shooters.

A fair point, I suppose, but that should give them more incentive to invest in dedicated servers.

[Altair_Snake]

But in DOA and Styx the input results in a specific action, which has a whiff. It is actually bad to mash. But ins some games, you can mash during an attack, for instance, to try to time the button press to when the attack connects. In this case, pressing the button early or late won't result in an action of its own. In these cases, when there is no cooldown, mashing helps. This is very different from when the input results in an action.

In For Honor, for the Warden, if you're already in the left and you press left again, there is no action, no whiff, just the input. That is why it would be prudent to add a cooldown, if they're goin with this scheme at all, that is.

[MisterWillow]

In For Honor, for the Warden, if you're already in the left and you press left again, there is no action, no whiff, just the input. That is why it would be prudent to add a cooldown, if they're goin with this scheme at all, that is.

You still block the attack you were prepared for, you just fail to parry, and potentially turn the tables, as it were, and gain an opening.

Are you suggesting that a mistimed parry should result in you getting hit?

[Lavanterus]

New video with this battle.

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[Altair_Snake]

You still block the attack you were prepared for, you just fail to parry, and potentially turn the tables, as it were, and gain an opening.

Are you suggesting that a mistimed parry should result in you getting hit?

Nope. I understand it eemed like that. So, thanks for asking.

I'd like for there to be a cooldown. And if you miss and your guard is there, you should still parry (though it'd be a guard crush). I don't there to be a whiff, which would cause the guy to get hit. I want the cooldown precisely because there is no whiff.
__________

As for the new video, thanks a lot for posting it. There are many novelties in it!

0:45 After performing a deflection against a flanker, the guy performs another deflection (while isn't in the auto-parry situation: all directions lit in his HUD). This second deflections is done against two near simultaneous attacks. I don't know how much of this stuff was automatic. I think he did whatever special thing is need for getting the first deflection. And I suspect the second one would happen as automatically only as a bad parry, but he did something special to turn it into a deflection (or maybe it was an auto deflection). And the deflection of the third attack was totally automatic, a part of the second deflection.

There is something beautiful in it. These single deflections working agains multiple attacks are a design masterpiece! I think what happens is that when you start a deflection, the game reads if there is any attack that's about to reach you. If there is, your character holds the initial deflection position (locking swords) untl the other attack connects, then he shrugs both sword away! I'm seriously moved by this. It's so beautiful. Almost crying here, seriously.

And the mechanical good news of this "discovery" is that there seems to be a consistent chance of winning when you're ganked. People can't lock you place and guard crush you, it seems. Even your auto-parries can be good ones. There is still a possibility that you can only deflect right after a deflection, but not after a normal parry or guard crush. I'm hoping you can also do it after a normal parry, but not after being guard crushed. But even being able to do this only after deflections would be good news, too.

And there is another finding later on that also greatly benefits gank victims.

1:11 Parrying a guy (normal parry) gives an advantage, allows you to act first. However, it's not enough to land a strong attack before he can land a fast attack. So, if you get parried and anticipate a strong attack is coming your way, intercept it with a fast attack.

1:41 It seems you have some degree of control over your footwork, even while striking (at least in some strikes). Note the small retreat on that fast high-high combo. It didn't look off and it could provide us with some subtle extra spacing tools. Very nice.

1:55 This is the nother good news to gank victims. It seems you are immune to guard breaks while you're striking. This follows Dead or Alive rules for grabs. So, if dude spam guard breaks against ya, just strike them. I'm also wondering if you're also immune while you're doing other stuff, like parrying, or recovering from attacks. Great great news!

2:30Some nice friendly fire there, even with attacks that come all the way from the other side. It seems in these situations the high attacks would be more appropriate.

2:35I think the guy died from a guard crush. They do chip away a little health. But I was wondering if they could kill. It seems they can.

3:15 You can dodge a strong attack, after being deflected.

3:21 A 3 attacks combo!!! Note that the third one is a strong attack. I don't think a thrid fast attack would be available from those two attacks. Just guessing. I'm suspecting dual wielders will have more stuff like this.

3:24 It looks like the guy gets hit while in the auto-parry stance (all 3 directions lit, after if you perform a parry). Maybe he needlessly pressed another direction. O rmaybe he simply got hit at the very end of the auto-parry stance.

5:55 You have time to guard against a strong attack, after a stationary guard break (when the guy doesn't throw you). BTW, when dudes throw you, you get out of their range, unless you hit a wall or something... then they can land a guaranteed strong attack (happened in another video). And stationary guard breaks guarantee a fast attack (happened in another video, too).

5:56 A clash of guard brakes.

5:58 Like in 1:41. But this one was a bigger retreat and still looked OK.

Extremely informative video!

Let me play the beta, please!!!

[MisterWillow]

Nope. I understand it eemed like that. So, thanks for asking.

I'd like for there to be a cooldown. And if you miss and your guard is there, you should still parry (though it'd be a guard crush). I don't there to be a whiff, which would cause the guy to get hit. I want the cooldown precisely because there is no whiff.

I understand what you're saying, I suppose, but if you make it too long, then if you fail to parry one attack/combo, and the cooldown isn't over when the next (series of) attack(s) come, you're at a severe disadvantage, since you wouldn't be able to parry at all. Alternatively, if you make it too short, then you run the risk of negating the need for a cooldown at all.

Example: Your opponent throws a light attack, you attempt to parry, but mistime it. You still block the attack, and your opponent doesn't do a follow up/combo (I'm not sure if you can combo a blocked light attack anyway, or if that only applies to heavy attacks). Instead, they wait a quarter of a second and throw another light attack. If you have a cooldown any more than a second long, you wouldn't even be able to parry, since the cooldown isn't finished---handicapping you in an unnatural (and I would argue unnecessary) way---whereas, if there were no cooldown, if you mistime the first, you would still be able to parry the second. And if they cooldown were shorter than a second, what's the point of having it?

Let me play the beta, please!!!

Me too!

[Altair_Snake]

I understand what you're saying, I suppose, but if you make it too long, then if you fail to parry one attack/combo, and the cooldown isn't over when the next (series of) attack(s) come, you're at a severe disadvantage, since you wouldn't be able to parry at all. Alternatively, if you make it too short, then you run the risk of negating the need for a cooldown at all.

Example: Your opponent throws a light attack, you attempt to parry, but mistime it. You still block the attack, and your opponent doesn't do a follow up/combo (I'm not sure if you can combo a blocked light attack anyway, or if that only applies to heavy attacks). Instead, they wait a quarter of a second and throw another light attack. If you have a cooldown any more than a second long, you wouldn't even be able to parry, since the cooldown isn't finished---handicapping you in an unnatural (and I would argue unnecessary) way---whereas, if there were no cooldown, if you mistime the first, you would still be able to parry the second. And if they cooldown were shorter than a second, what's the point of having it?



Me too!

Not if anormal parry (Repel) happens. But if specific circumstances lead to a guard crush, the attacker can continue the combo.

As for the length of a cooldown, it could be short enough to not mess with follow up attacks and still long enough to make mashing non-viable. One second is a very long time in melee. Seriously. If you take a look at a frame chart you'll prolly get a good idea of how much time it is. The cooldown could be shorter than 1 sec and still serve it's purpose.

And I don't think the cooldown should work by shutting down the controls. The guy should still be able to shift his stances normally. Only the deflections would become unnavailable during the cooldown. The other kinds of parries would be available.

BTW, this cooldown shouldn't even be displaye dto the player, because it'd be too short anyway. Just tell the players not to try the deflection by mashing. It should be fine.