1. #1

    Meta Report 7/2015

    Hello everyone, since jkk is gone and nobody can replace his deck tier lists, I decided to gather some data from the hundreds of games I play.

    I wanted to wait, until I collected more than 300 replays, however that might take too long.

    What I did:
    I collected all my replays from ladderplay (ranked + unranked) and deleted every replay below 1600 Elo (enemy Elo that is) as I had to cut somewhere.
    I then counted how "often" I saw a specific hero/decktype combination. Since I aswell as many others play the same decks many times and encounter the same opponent with the same deck many times, I made the following rule to analyze the raw data:

    1) A deck will only show up in the report, if I have a replay with at least two different people.
    Reason: I don't want to report on persons trying out random fundecks in unranked play and have bloated and useless data afterwards.

    2) A deck will only be counted mutiple times, if it is played by different people. I also count the decks I play myself this way. So meeting the same guy with the same deck 1000 times still counts as "seeing the deck once".
    Reason: I want to understand what decks are popular, not how often different people play. Some may only casually ladder, while others do 40 games a day.

    I did my analysis by heros,
    This carries a major flaw. There are Sanctuary control and breeder decks on ladder, with different heroes played (eg. Yukiko and Mukao) or (Kal-Azaar and Kiril). Those will not be seen in the overall data from this analysis. Eventually I will add them later. However, I think, it's ok, because those examples weren't many.

    Extracted from 191 replays I got the following data

    Decktypes on ladder sorted after popularity

    1. 10 times:
      • Seria Token
      • Siegfried Token

    2. 8 times:
      • Sandor Massrage

    3. 7 times
      • Kal-Azaar Control

    4. 6 times:
      • Ammar Co9 Ramp,
      • Kelthor Enrage
      • Shaar Midrange variants

    5. 5 times:
      • Old Mother Frozen Wave Control
      • Dhamiria Stall variants

    6. 4 times:
      • Akane (S) Timejump Control
      • Ignatius Burn
      • Nahla Timelock
      • Shalan Spies

    7. 3 times:
      • Ariana Poison Control
      • Kiril Rush (3(4)/2/0) versions
      • Masfar Titanramp
      • Morgan Angels
      • Toghrul Midrange

    8. 2 times:
      • Akane (A) Frozen Wave Control
      • Akane (S) Spellblock/Focused Blast Midrange (?)
      • Asalah Massrage [2]
      • Kiril Midrange (5(4)/4/0) versions
      • Mukao Control
      • Yukiko Control



    Example decklists (not finished)

    Ammar Co9 Ramp
    Spoiler:  Show

    Hero (5/5/3)
    1x Ammar, the Cunning

    Events (8)
    3x Path of the Ancestors
    3x A Tear in the Veil
    2x Night of the Rising Moon

    Creatures (24)
    3x Scholar
    3x Rakshasa Skirmisher
    1x Moon Phoenix
    3x Wizard Tutor
    3x Arcane Sharpshooter
    2x Djinn Warden
    1x Captive Djinn
    2x Arcane Master Djinn
    1x Nur, Spellweaver
    1x Damran, Chosen of the Thorns
    4x Djinn Cloudshaper

    Spells (14)
    4x Insect Swarm
    2x Stone Shield
    1x Fissure
    1x Nature's Wrath
    4x Frozen Wave
    2x Ice Meteor

    Fortunes (12)
    1x Revised Tactics
    2x Shifting Fates
    4x Campfire
    4x Circle of Nine
    1x Arcane Intuition
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  2. #2
    Licker34's Avatar Senior Member
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    Thanks for sharing this.

    Tokens are broken?

    Poison decks are not really a problem at that level since people know how to beat them. I still maintain that they are a problem in general though, similarly to why mass rage is a problem generally.

    Next step? Rank these decks?

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  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Licker34 Go to original post
    Thanks for sharing this.

    Tokens are broken?

    Poison decks are not really a problem at that level since people know how to beat them. I still maintain that they are a problem in general though, similarly to why mass rage is a problem generally.

    Next step? Rank these decks?


    I think, the popularity reflects the powerlevel of decks rather well.

    I would only place a streamlined Dhamiria higher, it would look like:

    T1: Siegfried, Sandor, Dhamiria

    T1.5: Seria, Ammar, Old Mother

    And then the rest. Oh and I think Kal-Azaar is played more than it should be. It's still a good deck but I think, it's not THAT strong anymore. Seems, people like it.

    As for understanding the effects on game balance:

    I think, this thread's: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...ght=giko.kopev first post summarizes the effects very well. Unforunately it turned into a massrage debate.. As I understand the op, tokens are so fast that the only decks who can stand up to them are either massrage or frozen wave based.
    As a result those decks that can stand up to massrage decks rather easily (Ignatius, Dhamiria creatures, your average stronghold deck, Nahla TJ) aren't playable on ladder and thus Sandor has free reign. I'd suggest to continue a balance discussion there, though.


    What surprised me in the meta analysis was the amount of stronghold rush/midrange decks, I had not expected that.


    The next step should be a discussion about example decklists.

    I will post my Ammar decklist since I have 85% winrate at an average Elo of 1700 with it, but won't post any other decklist, since I either didn't play the decks or don't think, my versions are optimized.

    So, going to edit the original post...
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  4. #4
    I am really suprised not to see Nahla/Elisabeth Beastmen here... They are present at 1000 elo.
    It is a reall pity that Breeder stacks, probably the most balanced of them all, are the least popular. But they are the most fragile and that is probably why.
    Also, not retaliation decks in pro play? That makes me really sad.

    I wanted to give your Ammar ramp a try, but I only have 2 Frozen waves and 1 Cloudshaper, so it seems like it is not going to work
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  5. #5
    malkorion's Avatar Senior Member
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    So the game still blows and there is no point in coming back to it? :P I mean damn, the stale meta is stale.
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  6. #6
    Licker34's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by malkorion Go to original post
    So the game still blows and there is no point in coming back to it? :P I mean damn, the stale meta is stale.
    Ehh...

    It's always been like that though hasn't it? I mean fine if you've had your fill, but frankly I find the meta more diverse than it's been in a while. Of course it's a bit stale now since we're still dealing with different variations of MR nonsense, but the other stall decks are different, and the beat down decks are also different.

    Still, stall is stall, and beat down is beat down, I guess you may not care if it's Kelthor instead of Shaar or Kat or something.
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  7. #7
    I tried very hard the retaliation strategy for a while. When TOR were only accessible via wilcards and players were not used to the concept of perfect retaluation ut was nit too bad and elo went back up almost to 1500. But keeping playing this after cards were accessible with gold did not worked as much and now my eli dropped in the 1200 again.

    Tokens are actually much more effective, but retaluation is still a fun deck now. At least that is from my own experience but I am just a Champ 2 and rankend 1000ish on the ladder.
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  8. #8
    To improve TOR meta response:
    Here is statistics of Russian Team League - tournament with bans/pics.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1403870189

    Although It is in Russian, I hope that names of the heroes and numbers of bans, picks and winrate are understandable.
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  9. #9
    An update to R3ZZ's post.

    Translation of key cells.

    column C - Faction/hero
    column D - # of bans
    column E - # of 1st picks
    column F - # of 2nd picks
    column G - # of last picks
    column H - total # of bans and picks

    rows:
    Necropolis
    Namtaru (Invoker)
    Namtaru (new)
    Ariana
    Seria
    Adar-Malik

    Inferno
    Dhamiria
    Kal-Azaar
    Kirill
    Ignatius
    Garant
    Deleb

    Stronghold
    Sandor
    Shaar
    Kelthor
    Matewa
    Acamas

    Haven
    Siegfrid
    Cassandra
    Anton
    Kieran

    Academy
    Masfar
    Nahla
    Ammar
    Hakeem
    Akane
    Miranda

    Sanctuary
    Shalan
    Yukiko
    Ishuma
    Irina
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by R3ZZ_ Go to original post
    To improve TOR meta response:
    Here is statistics of Russian Team League - tournament with bans/pics.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1403870189

    Although It is in Russian, I hope that names of the heroes and numbers of bans, picks and winrate are understandable.
    I think, it's very hard to come up with a good way to analyze your data. Reason: If I am playing with hero bans and best of 3 games or something, than I maybe will ban Ignatius, because I want to play a stall deck, which ofc, I do not care about on ladder, since Ignatius is pretty rare. However, I will try to give those numbers some meaning.

    Let's look at most banned heroes first:

    1. Dhamiria (9 bans)
    2. Siegfried (8 bans)
    3. Masfar, Shalan and Adar-Malik (6 bans)
    4. Rest with equal or lesser than 5 bans


    Judging from this list, we can assume that Dhamiria Stall and Siegfried Token are Tier1 decks, that do not have many (if any) counterdecks.
    Dhamiria is not so popular on ladder, probably because it is a stall deck (less popular than rush) and games can take a really long time.

    Suprisingly Masfar, Shalan and Adar-Malik are banned more than those other heroes. I don't know why. I would expect Sandor bans here, but maybe people didn't ban the decks, bcause they wanted to play them. So let's look at the first picks.

    1. Old Mother, Sandor (7 picks)
    2. New Mother (6 picks)
    3. Kal-Azaar (5 picks)
    4. Rest with lesser or equal to 3 picks


    Here we have Sandor, so instead of banning him, he got played, aswell as Invoker Namtaru. Judging from this, we may assume that Sandor and Old Mother are at leaast Tier 1.5 decks. Notice however, that they are picked first less than Dhamiria and Siegfried are banned. These picks explain, why Sandor is not banned as often as the other decks.

    Kal-Azaar aswell as New Mother are strong and versatile decks, when Siegfried and Dhamiria are banned. Kal-Azaar is especially versatile against almost anything, making him a solid first pick,

    Seria isn't nearly as much played/banned as one would expect from ladderplay. However, this might be the case, because Seria is still very draw dependant and simply less consistent than Siegfried is.

    Then we have the summary, which I will repeat here:

    Hero picks + bans win/loss ratio
    Old Mother 14 55,56%
    Kal-Azaar 13 81,82%
    Sandor 13 75,00%
    Siegfried 12 75,00%
    New Mother 12 57,14
    Adar-Malik 12 50,00%
    Ariana 12 25,00%
    Seria 11 33,33%
    Dhamiria 11 00,00%
    Shalan 9 50,00%
    Masfar 8 50,00%

    From looking at this table, I would think that Sandor, Kal-Azaar and Siegfried are Tier1 decks. It kinda reflects their popularity on ladder aswell. While Old Mother got most bans and picks, she wasn't nearly as successful as those other 3 decks that have winratios above 75,00%.


    greetings for this day
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