Art of Battle Deepness | Forums

[KromeWing]

I understand that the art of battle system is the core of the game. We may have different classes, weapons and perhaps even cultures at some point. But for me, the main thing that got me, is this system. Because it focus on the things that are most important in a real battle and transfers it to a controller: predictability and reflexes.

From what we have seen so far, there are some stuff that I would like to highlight:

First: The only differences we have seen so far between the classes are offensive and defensive power (besides the talents). They said that the assassin has a weaker defense and more deadly strikes (in other words, he sacrifices defense for more power) and they also said that the warden is a more balanced character. This is only about more or less damage from attacks, not about the art of battle system itself. But I think they should let the character style reflect in the battle system.

Jason Vandenberghe said in the Masterclass when asked by an japanese guy about the fight stances that it is not a surprise that different civilizations around the world found the same battle stances to be more effective. But he emphasizes that the european style pulls power also from the hips when swinging a sword, and because of that, "splits you in half" when it hits.

We can not speculate about how heavier weapons works, because all we saw in gameplay was swords. But I think that when you block an heavy attack of a Viking Berserker, you should take longer to recover your attack stance. Which would open an space for the Viking to continue attacking and in this way keep his opponent under pressure. This would would lead the viking's opponent to take the risk of dodge instead of blocking.
Also the japanese style is more about technique. They wouldn't try to completely stop a heavy blow with a shield like a knight, they probably would deflect the brute force with a lesser force, being able to attack normaly right after a block.

This leads to the second matter: From what I saw, you are not able to keep attacking when your attack is blocked. When the character's attack is blocked, he always take a step back to the neutral stance. Of course that you can attack again if you want, but these attacks are just not connected. My point is that when you attack an opponent and he is blocking, you have the advantege because you are in the offensive. And the way it is right now, you just can't keep the momentum. In my opinion, it takes part of the action... As players might begin to alternate attacks between them.

I know that this may sound awkward since the game does not have anything to limit consecutives attacks (like an stamina bar), and I'm not saying that limit the attacks would be the solution. I don't think that they should impose a limit at all, it is better to let it limitless.
You would be forced to sharp your eyes in order to find a breach between the attacks and be fast enough to place an attack on this breach (it is a good opportunity to weapons impact the system, faster weapons should have an advantage in this), or perhaps you could also learn the attack pattern from your opponent since he keeps pressuring and do some kind of counter attack (I'm not sure if that would fit the game well, but they could reward the blocker if he press the button at the exactly time that an attack hits, something like Soul Calibur), or you could also just give a huge step back by dodging in order to "breathe" and calculate a better approach, which would not be possible if the opponent managed to put you against an wall (they said that the battlefield will be a very important matter). In all this cases you would be rewarded by reflexes, predictability or better positioning.
In fact, you are not able to attack right after your attack is blocked, but this doesn't seem to be the case when you try to attack righ after a block. (Again, I'm talking about consecutives attacks.)
In all gameplay videos, the blocker attacks only after his stance reseted to the neutral. But there is one fast attack that only happened once! If you look close on the For Honor Gameplay - Multiplayer Walkthrough video, exactly at the mark of 3:00, you will notice that the knight blocks an upper attack from the samurai and instantly attacks. Swinging the weapon from the same block stance. That was beautiful! Looked like real battle!!! (Still not sure why they don't execute this kind of attack after each block)

There are more things I wanted to talk about, but this thread is already huge and I need to go back to work

So... I'm still waiting to see how different weapons will affect the art of battle. And also if the classes are going to have an impact on this system somehow.

In any case, I'll be playing this game!

[SerWarhammer]

UP.

your post is gold! it must be to the top of the forum list.

[Warphorntek]

True its quite long post, but these which want best for game must read this .) I would write something similar but would mess it up with my skilled english language Impact is needed and i look forward to see that heavy weapons will a bit cripple target after succesful hit. Biggest one just must. It would be maybe too much real if it can knock out arm.

[Eiddard]

In all gameplay videos, the blocker attacks only after his stance reseted to the neutral. But there is one fast attack that only happened once! If you look close on the For Honor Gameplay - Multiplayer Walkthrough video, exactly at the mark of 3:00, you will notice that the knight blocks an upper attack from the samurai and instantly attacks. Swinging the weapon from the same block stance. That was beautiful! Looked like real battle!!! (Still not sure why they don't execute this kind of attack after each block)

What you look there is not a fast attack, is a parry, when you time your block correctly it was said that you could parry, in the same video, at the 3:40 you can see a parry from the Samurai. Parrying allows you to counter attack your opponent really fast, without giving the chance to defend.

As far as I saw, there are 3 different types of blocks.

- The standard block, your opponent attack you, you block him, and you both go back to stance position.

- Parry: timed block that allows the defender to counterattack really fast.

- Late block: I dont really know how to call it, but it is a block that puts the defender in a bad spot, it is an inneficient block.

To illustrate those blocks:

Standar block: minute 1:34 you can see a block in each direction.

Parry: 3:00 and 3:40

Late block: 2:57(before the parry) and 4:25, you can see that it is a ****ty block, not a full block like the standar one or the parry.

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In this video there is a better example of late block, in the min 0:40

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[Warphorntek]

Can see it now

[AridZachdeath44]

I understand that the art of battle system is the core of the game. We may have different classes, weapons and perhaps even cultures at some point. But for me, the main thing that got me, is this system. Because it focus on the things that are most important in a real battle and transfers it to a controller: predictability and reflexes.

From what we have seen so far, there are some stuff that I would like to highlight:

First: The only differences we have seen so far between the classes are offensive and defensive power (besides the talents). They said that the assassin has a weaker defense and more deadly strikes (in other words, he sacrifices defense for more power) and they also said that the warden is a more balanced character. This is only about more or less damage from attacks, not about the art of battle system itself. But I think they should let the character style reflect in the battle system.

Jason Vandenberghe said in the Masterclass when asked by an japanese guy about the fight stances that it is not a surprise that different civilizations around the world found the same battle stances to be more effective. But he emphasizes that the european style pulls power also from the hips when swinging a sword, and because of that, "splits you in half" when it hits.

We can not speculate about how heavier weapons works, because all we saw in gameplay was swords. But I think that when you block an heavy attack of a Viking Berserker, you should take longer to recover your attack stance. Which would open an space for the Viking to continue attacking and in this way keep his opponent under pressure. This would would lead the viking's opponent to take the risk of dodge instead of blocking.
Also the japanese style is more about technique. They wouldn't try to completely stop a heavy blow with a shield like a knight, they probably would deflect the brute force with a lesser force, being able to attack normaly right after a block.

This leads to the second matter: From what I saw, you are not able to keep attacking when your attack is blocked. When the character's attack is blocked, he always take a step back to the neutral stance. Of course that you can attack again if you want, but these attacks are just not connected. My point is that when you attack an opponent and he is blocking, you have the advantege because you are in the offensive. And the way it is right now, you just can't keep the momentum. In my opinion, it takes part of the action... As players might begin to alternate attacks between them.

I know that this may sound awkward since the game does not have anything to limit consecutives attacks (like an stamina bar), and I'm not saying that limit the attacks would be the solution. I don't think that they should impose a limit at all, it is better to let it limitless.
You would be forced to sharp your eyes in order to find a breach between the attacks and be fast enough to place an attack on this breach (it is a good opportunity to weapons impact the system, faster weapons should have an advantage in this), or perhaps you could also learn the attack pattern from your opponent since he keeps pressuring and do some kind of counter attack (I'm not sure if that would fit the game well, but they could reward the blocker if he press the button at the exactly time that an attack hits, something like Soul Calibur), or you could also just give a huge step back by dodging in order to "breathe" and calculate a better approach, which would not be possible if the opponent managed to put you against an wall (they said that the battlefield will be a very important matter). In all this cases you would be rewarded by reflexes, predictability or better positioning.
In fact, you are not able to attack right after your attack is blocked, but this doesn't seem to be the case when you try to attack righ after a block. (Again, I'm talking about consecutives attacks.)
In all gameplay videos, the blocker attacks only after his stance reseted to the neutral. But there is one fast attack that only happened once! If you look close on the For Honor Gameplay - Multiplayer Walkthrough video, exactly at the mark of 3:00, you will notice that the knight blocks an upper attack from the samurai and instantly attacks. Swinging the weapon from the same block stance. That was beautiful! Looked like real battle!!! (Still not sure why they don't execute this kind of attack after each block)

There are more things I wanted to talk about, but this thread is already huge and I need to go back to work

So... I'm still waiting to see how different weapons will affect the art of battle. And also if the classes are going to have an impact on this system somehow.

In any case, I'll be playing this game!

I believe the attack that came directly after the upward block was the result of a perfectly timed block.

[WYRDB0Y]

What interests me is how they gonna balance spear type long reach weapons against short ones like swords. Because IRL with a spear you have the advantage, because you can keep the enemy away from you. The long reach weapons should have an advantage, well... at long reach, but should be disadvantageous if the enemy with the short reach weapon can close the distance. So fighting in this setup would require a lot of dodging (and closing distance) on the short reach side when attacking, and would require dodging (and creating distance) on the long reach side.

What do you think, how can be different types of weapons balanced?

[Solid_Altair]

First: The only differences we have seen so far between the classes are offensive and defensive power (besides the talents). They said that the assassin has a weaker defense and more deadly strikes (in other words, he sacrifices defense for more power) and they also said that the warden is a more balanced character. This is only about more or less damage from attacks, not about the art of battle system itself. But I think they should let the character style reflect in the battle system.

Very good OP.

There is actually a big difference of this kind, between the classes we've seen. The Oni has a neutral stance, while the Warden doesn't. You can see that the Oni can have his sword in the center of his body, with the UI directions all greyed out. The Warden can't have this. If the player release the stick, his last stance remains. I think this is a godd way to represent how the Warden style makes a more extensive use of the hips. He can't change his stance (refresh it) as quickly as the Oni. The Oni needs only reposition his hands.

Another difference is one you've already noticed. The Warden seems to have a special parry that allows an attack that flows from it. In the off-screen video there is actually a case where the Warden does that even though the parry doesn't connect. I'd lso like to point out that it doesn't seem to rely on perfect timing, since the player has the high stance quite a while before the attack connects.

BTW, I disagree that these moves should be common. I like that you get back to your normal stance after performing the usual parries. It doesn't look as fancy but it deepens the gameplay, as you get to choose with which attack you fire back.

We can not speculate about how heavier weapons works, because all we saw in gameplay was swords. But I think that when you block an heavy attack of a Viking Berserker, you should take longer to recover your attack stance. Which would open an space for the Viking to continue attacking and in this way keep his opponent under pressure. This would would lead the viking's opponent to take the risk of dodge instead of blocking.
Also the japanese style is more about technique. They wouldn't try to completely stop a heavy blow with a shield like a knight, they probably would deflect the brute force with a lesser force, being able to attack normaly right after a block.
...

So... I'm still waiting to see how different weapons will affect the art of battle. And also if the classes are going to have an impact on this system somehow.

In any case, I'll be playing this game!

It's cool that you mentioned Soul Calibur. Soul Calibur got this impact and range stuff perfectly, albeit with not so fancy animations. The key thing to realise is that it is all a matter of speed. Force and range are a matter of speed. A longer weapon is fasteer from long range. And a forceful blow will cause a longer recovery time to the enemy's block, which will give you a relative time advantage. This isn't a mystery. People already figured it out. If they want to create long range or heavy styles, this is the way to do it.

And about the efficiency of parries, I did a long post in another thread. Here it is. I hope it's not impolite to quote myself:

I think I saw the opposite. In the second video, although the Oni watches his opponent for a while, he "mashes flicks", so his parry is last instant thing, in comparison to the first video, where the Oni was holding the high stance.

Which relates to this:


This assumes that shifting your stance late, when the attack is about to connect, makes your parry better. In some cases, it seems like it does. In others, it's the other way around. So, from just watching the videos I can't tell. Having said that, I actually think some of the developer players were trying this tactic you mentioned. And you may not have enough time, specially if you're a knight, because he doesn't have a neutral stance, like the Oni, does. If you wanna swap and swap back as a knight, you're gonna have to switch your stance completely... and twice. As the Oni, you can simply release and press the R stick back at the intended direction, having the character centering his sword and putting it to the side again, without needing to shift his feet.

From what I've gathered, I came up with a few alternative hypothesis:

1a- Some attacks Guard Crush (result in bad parries, that favor the attacker) (not be mistaken with the Guard Brakes) by default. These are specific to the attacks, which can be very, very specific. In the examples I mentioned in those two videos, I attack that is parried well is actually a little different, because the lady doesn't advance and change her stance with the jump. So, it seems like only the advancing strong high attack of the knight Guard Crushes by default. The Oni's Guard Crusher is his right strong advancing attack.

1b- Other attacks Guard Crush circumstantially. These Crushes happen when the fighter parries without actually having his full parry stance, because they are taunting, recovering from a whiff, recovering from parrying a previous attack, or just starting to lock on the attacker.
____________

2a- All strong attacks Guard Crush by default, unless their parries are timed well. Timing them well doesn't require a very sharp (late) timing. You just can sit in the stance for a very long time. And even if you time it well, you may be crushed, depending on the circumstances, like mentioned in 1b.

2b- Like 1b.
____________

3a- Only some attacks Guard Crush... and only if they're parried with bad timing (stance is held from very early on).

3a- Like 1b.
____________

Hypothesis 3 doesn't sound good to Okham's Razor. Way too complicated.

I'm leaning towards 1 or 2. A little more towards 2. They're all very complicated, actualy, but I couldn't find a simpler pattern... there was only one event that proved an exception and made me pull half my hair out. BTW, hypotheses 2 and 3 support the tactic you've entioned. Hypotheesis 1 does not. I'm really leaning towards 2, now.
____________


I'm pretty sure you can choose the direction. It is possible to successfully dodge towards the attack, though. However, its timing seems more difficult. Dodging away from the attack seems easier, in terms of timing. Even dodging away can fail, if the timing is bad enough (early or late). Guys can be hit while rolling. Dodging doesn't necessarily put you in advantage. If your enemy is doing a string of two fast attacks, his second attack will catch you befor eyou can fire back.
____________

BTW, I do think being hit by a fast attack interrupts your strong attack, or anything you're doing. I don't think there is "poise" (as in Dark Souls) in this game, unless you're executing someone (including Adds) or you're just being hit by Adds.
____________


I' pretty sure it's the Left Stick. I saw a character dodging one way, while blocking (having his stance on) the other.

I think if you dodge without a lock on, you roll.

I'll talk about the "combo system" later. Basically, I agree with the way it is now in the game.

[KromeWing]

UP.

your post is gold! it must be to the top of the forum list.

Thanks! I think that this is the kind of subject and discussion that would help the developers.

What you look there is not a fast attack, is a parry, when you time your block correctly it was said that you could parry, in the same video, at the 3:40 you can see a parry from the Samurai. Parrying allows you to counter attack your opponent really fast, without giving the chance to defend.

As far as I saw, there are 3 different types of blocks.

- The standard block, your opponent attack you, you block him, and you both go back to stance position.

- Parry: timed block that allows the defender to counterattack really fast.

- Late block: I dont really know how to call it, but it is a block that puts the defender in a bad spot, it is an inneficient block.

Another difference is one you've already noticed. The Warden seems to have a special parry that allows an attack that flows from it. In the off-screen video there is actually a case where the Warden does that even though the parry doesn't connect. I'd lso like to point out that it doesn't seem to rely on perfect timing, since the player has the high stance quite a while before the attack connects.

I understood what you said about the standard block and the late block Eiddard, but Solid_Altair's observation seems to be right. The warden is holding the up-block stance a while before the attack connects. This type of attack or counter attack continues to be a mystery.

What interests me is how they gonna balance spear type long reach weapons against short ones like swords. Because IRL with a spear you have the advantage, because you can keep the enemy away from you. The long reach weapons should have an advantage, well... at long reach, but should be disadvantageous if the enemy with the short reach weapon can close the distance. So fighting in this setup would require a lot of dodging (and closing distance) on the short reach side when attacking, and would require dodging (and creating distance) on the long reach side.

What do you think, how can be different types of weapons balanced?

I think that weapons with greater reach won't be a huge problem... They will probably be a bit slower. To keep the advantage of reach IRL I believe that someone with a spear would attack only at the range limit, not giving chances to the enemy get close, ensuring the victory by taking a minimum amount of risk.

In the game this would reflect with people being more careful when approaching an opponent with a polearm, but the predictability factor remains. You can still block the attacks while you get closer (or might be a specific blow powerful enough to make an opponent move away even with a block).

The most complicated part would be to make these attacks less effective at close range... Not sure if this is possible. But there is already some kind of tackle that seems to be used to recover some space.

There is actually a big difference of this kind, between the classes we've seen. The Oni has a neutral stance, while the Warden doesn't. You can see that the Oni can have his sword in the center of his body, with the UI directions all greyed out. The Warden can't have this. If the player release the stick, his last stance remains. I think this is a godd way to represent how the Warden style makes a more extensive use of the hips. He can't change his stance (refresh it) as quickly as the Oni. The Oni needs only reposition his hands.

I really missed this one!!! It's amazing!

Apparently this means that the Oni has some advantage with that neutral stance, seems to make easier to bluff or even answer faster with a block. Warden probably is slower to change his block stance... But we also can't be sure if this is just visual or if it affects the Art of Battle.

The truth is that is really hard to talk about these things when you didn't play it yet. We speculate about how the game might be, but we do not have a real ideia of how the game is now! Your theory about parry is really nice, but we could know how it functions with an answer from some developer or something like that. This would give us a light and make these discussions more focused! (still a long road before we get a chance to play beta)

BTW, I disagree that these moves should be common. I like that you get back to your normal stance after performing the usual parries. It doesn't look as fancy but it deepens the gameplay, as you get to choose with which attack you fire back.

I don't know... I think that the game wants to pass that feeling of heat from battle in a battlefield. I just have the feeling that if you step back after your attack is blocked and the same happens to opponent in a battle, and this go on and on, the fight would be kind of cold and boring...
If your opponent blocked your attack you should be able to connect others attacks. Try different combinations from different angles... Try to find that breach!

Another thing that would be cool in my opinion, they could have some different moves that are not exactly attached to their weapon. Attacks with knees, elbows, with the grip or with the cross-guard of the sword (not only as a finishing move) or with unusual parts of the weapon they are using. I think that this would increase the brutality and reality (would be more like the cinematic trailer) But I think this would be ask too much... Anyway, the game is already amazing!

[Havemercy87]

The truth is that is really hard to talk about these things when you didn't play it yet. We speculate about how the game might be, but we do not have a real ideia of how the game is now! Your theory about parry is really nice, but we could know how it functions with an answer from some developer or something like that. This would give us a light and make these discussions more focused! (still a long road before we get a chance to play beta)

You all got some really great ideas and observations and some have been on my mind as well, but this one is the breadwinner.