1. #101
    Stoneofhelp's Avatar Senior Member
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    Does Kat have overall better matchups than Shaar just because she counters Cass better? (if we were to compare Stronghold deck with one another)
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  2. #102
    Licker34's Avatar Senior Member
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    This is the fun part about lists and the meta, they are changing things which evolve over time.

    While I empathize with jkk and his disgust at how Cass gets ripped up by bloodthirst I also think it's a good thing

    It's something we knew for a long time actually, that back in the days where SH was considered the OP faction token decks were dead against it. Well, nothing changed with SoB other than that SH didn't get played as much, and in particular, people stopped playing bloodthirst creatures as much (especially bloodsnake with only 5HP). This was because inferNO needed to be countered, as well as the odd other AW decks in academy (and SH).

    Now we're coming back around the circle I guess. As you see more Cass which is eating inferNO decks, people get sick of losing to stupid warding inquisitor recursion and martyr abuse and figure out how to counter it. I have to say I see more martyr around (and not just cass), which requires some tools to get around. So you do see more tear in the veil and maybe more plan bounce cards to get martyr out.

    I don't know about you guys, but it's actually more interesting now than it has been. Pity there's no actual tournament or outside goal for this to play out in
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  3. #103
    jkk89's Avatar First 1700 ELO! Hooah!
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    Update
    I've switched places of Kat and Kiril. Kat is good, versatile, etc., but with Kiril I simply have better win ratio. I should go for that sooner but I really didnt want to encourage ppl to play even more Inferno...
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  4. #104
    Originally Posted by Licker34 Go to original post
    This is the fun part about lists and the meta, they are changing things which evolve over time.

    While I empathize with jkk and his disgust at how Cass gets ripped up by bloodthirst I also think it's a good thing

    It's something we knew for a long time actually, that back in the days where SH was considered the OP faction token decks were dead against it. Well, nothing changed with SoB other than that SH didn't get played as much, and in particular, people stopped playing bloodthirst creatures as much (especially bloodsnake with only 5HP). This was because inferNO needed to be countered, as well as the odd other AW decks in academy (and SH).

    Now we're coming back around the circle I guess. As you see more Cass which is eating inferNO decks, people get sick of losing to stupid warding inquisitor recursion and martyr abuse and figure out how to counter it. I have to say I see more martyr around (and not just cass), which requires some tools to get around. So you do see more tear in the veil and maybe more plan bounce cards to get martyr out.

    I don't know about you guys, but it's actually more interesting now than it has been. Pity there's no actual tournament or outside goal for this to play out in
    I agree that a rotating meta is one of the signs of a balanced game (of course Kal never rotates out of the meta). It shows balance and that there are reactive ways to challenge "top" decks. I didn't realize how insane bloodsnakes were until I got destroyed by them playing Cass the other day when I thought I was ahead, until I got slapped for something like 12 damage after his bloodsnake just sat on the rax lane.

    Originally Posted by jkk89 Go to original post
    Update
    I've switched places of Kat and Kiril. Kat is good, versatile, etc., but with Kiril I simply have better win ratio. I should go for that sooner but I really didnt want to encourage ppl to play even more Inferno...
    Is Kiril really that good? I think Myranda spirits does quite well against Kiril but maybe I'm wrong. I just opened like 3 lava spawns lol so if he's good I'll maybe give him a try if I ever feel like playing a brainless deck.
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  5. #105
    Originally Posted by jkk89 Go to original post
    Nah, Cassandra is just a meta deck. When meta shifts Cassandra will be gone from list. At least in its current form.

    The reason why I put Cassandra on 3rd place is because she has good matchups vs most of the top decks, including old Stronghold decks. Currently tho people tend to put more and more bloodthirst creatures into their Stronghold decks and Bloodthirst mechanic is simply unfair in interaction with tokens. Especially Bloodsnake Shaman.
    And what happened was that I played vs LQDBrunt (again) and despite having good hand and even having a board control at some point (which doesnt happen often), he just played 1 Bloodsnake and then 2 Bloodclaws turn after and suddenly my board was no more. Which kinda tilt me.
    I guess you overrates Bloodsnake Shamans abd other Bloodthirst creatures in this matchup. In my previous expiriense matchup versus orc was really nice.

    In current state Bloodsnake Shaman is not a really good card versus barrack, because it cost 4 mana and vulnerable versus bridges and by block by square, Their active is not so strong now, because usually u have 2+ stacks on barrack, Only u should manage their health on the level 3 and lower to avoid swarm+attack combo. In any case it is a jsut 4-cost blocker vs 2-cost barack, and that means that orc player loses tempo.

    Other possibility, that u try to play vs orcs in more controlish style, while this matchup is all about tempo. Orcs cannot use swarms in it (only to lethal), because swarm is a bad idea vs opponents desk with baracks. It means that this matchup is all about desk presense and stacks keeping.

    At least for me the match up Cassa vs Deleb is much complicated then Cassa vs Kat.
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  6. #106
    jkk89's Avatar First 1700 ELO! Hooah!
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    @MintzPanda

    Every 3/2/2 Inferno deck is good, because the creatures are good. Its stupid, but almost every Inferno hero can play the same creature set up in 3/2/2 max-out. Some guy was saying that even Dhamiria was played this way o.O (for whatever reason)
    The creature set-up is almost as good that hero choice doesnt matter as much as it should.

    But out of all those decks, Kal-Azaar 3/3/2 and Kiril 3/2/2 are simply the best. And some guys are even saying that Kiril is better than Kal-Azaar for rush. It surely depends on the matchup.
    Deleb is not as good any more as a choice of a hero, cause she cant play Lava Spawns and her abillity isnt as good as Kal's or Kiril's either. Maybe Deleb could be build more mid-range~ish to justify the choice of a hero (her abillity is really good with H.Maniacs). And I think, I dont have to say that playing rush on Dhamiria or Jezebeth is kinda stupid (it will still work, but it will be inferior to Kal and Kiril). So there is only Garant left and altough it is possible to play him in rush style (3/3/3), I prefer more control approach for him.
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  7. #107
    Originally Posted by jkk89 Go to original post
    Update
    Okay, lets try with Kat at 3rd place -> but only because of her obnoxiously good MU against Cass.
    I'm still seeing half my matches as kal (and been playing a bit myself after tanking rating). Kat isn't great against kal imo. Obviously crushers are great but don't think they save the day enough in most matches. Cass was only favourable matchup I've tried versus kal.

    I only get to play 30 odd matches a week though so small sample sizes and all that...
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  8. #108
    I think the ranking of deck is not worthing it as it's not really reliable. For example according to you deleb is less good than kiril while i have better results vs kiril than vs deleb. In addition the kiril deck don't even use dark magic so i am unsure about the kiril ability being really better than the deleb one. Other example i am unsure about shaar being better than kat i personally find the current shaar meta deck not that amazing. Finally between kiril deleb kal 3/3/2 or even garant 3/3/3 (who acces purge and campfires) i can't tell you for granted which one is the best if there is ever a best one to begin with. The only thing i can tell you is that inferno have a bitt too much indirect dammage at the moment and their creatures are a little better within 2-3 drops range. Anyway i think making a ranking with just few duels is not reliable.
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  9. #109
    jkk89's Avatar First 1700 ELO! Hooah!
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    I saw only 1 person to play Garant 3/3/3. This deck is stupid as it is in all means just weaker version of Kal-Azaar. If I would make a ranking in the vacuum he would be on the list, but since I already have this deck type with other hero, I dont want to make unnecessary mess.
    Kiril is a deck-type on its own.
    Also, I'm pretty sure U didnt played vs this version of Kiril. Kiril is not really that popular and Kiril decks are pretty random, practically anything from 5/5 to 3/2/0 can be met on ladder. Also Your results might be screwed if U just play decks that have good matchup vs Kiril in particular (altough listed version of Kiril shouldnt have bad matchups).

    Obviously all Inferno 3/2/2 decks are pretty good so sometimes its hard to tell why particular hero is better, but I'm pretty sure that Kal-Azaar and Kiril are just way ahead in that department. With standard Deleb decktype, the only way U can create value play using abillity is sacrifacing 1 or 2 drop to Bound Succubus. How often that happens? In 3/2/2 version her abillity is just not as impressive as it was in 5/1/1 version (that was popular in HoN meta).
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  10. #110
    Well i met your kiril build this morning and i couldn't do anything but deleb can also play taskmasters and play a bit different. Anyway poke inferno is too strong i guess. I met garant with void wraith so maybe easier void wrait/campfires and purge can still be interesting i can't tell you. (also this decks deleb and grant usually uses sacrificial pit and thrall of hatred so they are a bit different they are all about pure poke). This needs to be tested, i personally choose not to inflict inferno to my opponent as long as i don't see only them.
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