true fans and wrenches/spanners. | Forums

[xzamplez]

TF and Wrench were had good intentions, but were executed terribly. We did have a nomination thread for each symbol that was largely ignored. But, though it may have made a difference, it still would've had the same problems of general negativity from those who wanted them, but didn't have them. Nobody should do something good for the community for a reward, but that's what was happening.

I nominate TwistedTalenz for a wrench.

[xzamplez]

Thanks for the summary guunners!



Putting F2P on top of a PVP model is definitely a part of it. But still you find plenty of references on the forums to "thats not a legit way to make legend", "you didnt win honestly because you took the track at the last second", etc. All stuff that refers to how people want to play, as opposed to the way things really are. The .... judging... of other people just leads to posts defending the other person, and it goes on and on, etc. Gets tiring after a while.

I miss the pre-PvP days when we all just played the game and didnt judge each other so much.

If you're referring to me, I'd like to know so I can have an opportunity to defend my view.

Disagreements are not a negative thing. We shouldn't be a hive mind, and all think the same way.

[Guunners]

Nobody should do something good for the community for a reward, but that's what was happening.

So true, so sad.

[xitooner]

If you're referring to me, I'd like to know so I can have an opportunity to defend my view.
Disagreements are not a negative thing. We shouldn't be a hive mind, and all think the same way.

If you do it, defend yourself at the time then. Disagreements are fine, we've always had those. Its easy to cross the line though. Its fine to have an opinion:
"I wish the game didnt allow you to do XXX to get ZZZZ because it ruins YYYY"
"I dont like the way showdowns are done because of AAAA and BBB"

But when its phrased in terms that demean another persons accomplishments, then its a personal attack (however slight it may seem) and invites others to defend.
"You won that showdown at the last second; I expected better of you"
"You dont deserve ZZZZ because you did XXX"
"Well I didnt do XXX so my ZZZZ is legit" (implying others were "not legit")

With PVP, the focus on the forums has moved more from the game itself, to the players and how they play; that some ways to play are "more legit" than others. Thats what I get tired of, and if thats the way it continues, then I think we will lose much of the reason many of us stick around. So eventually, we wont stick around, which is kinda sad.

[xzamplez]

If you do it, defend yourself at the time then. Disagreements are fine, we've always had those. Its easy to cross the line though. Its fine to have an opinion:
"I wish the game didnt allow you to do XXX to get ZZZZ because it ruins YYYY"
"I dont like the way showdowns are done because of AAAA and BBB"

But when its phrased in terms that demean another persons accomplishments, then its a personal attack (however slight it may seem) and invites others to defend.
"You won that showdown at the last second; I expected better of you"
"You dont deserve ZZZZ because you did XXX"
"Well I didnt do XXX so my ZZZZ is legit" (implying others were "not legit")

With PVP, the focus on the forums has moved more from the game itself, to the players and how they play; that some ways to play are "more legit" than others. Thats what I get tired of, and if thats the way it continues, then I think we will lose much of the reason many of us stick around. So eventually, we wont stick around, which is kinda sad.

I probably did defend myself at the time. If you're referring to a specific thing a person said, it's just common courtesy to bring it to their attention. Indirectly addressing somebody seems cowardly, in my opinion.

Well, in the case that refers to what I said: I stand by it, and I have no reason to change how I said it. Why should people who got to legend legit be in the same grouping as those who won matches through agreements with their opponents? Is it an "accomplishment" to convince people to let you win? In the real world, it's only an accomplishment when you earn it by your own merit.

Now as I said, I understand that the reward system encourages those who aren't good enough at the time to manipulate matches. The only problem I have is when people think that is a legitimate way of attaining legend. It's not. It's exploitation, and they know it.


As for waiting last second for a run: It's hustling, which is generally seen as a low thing to do, but it's not exploitation.

[LinkinJon-TFG]

"As for waiting last second for a run: It's hustling, which is generally seen as a low thing to do, but it's not exploitation"

I have had this happen a few times while in the legends league and while out. the main reason for this other than having a track taken in the last few seconds is i have had so many crashes before, during and after runs that i was not able to set a time until the last second. i cannot be the only person this happens to so some though must be given to people in a similar situation.

"Now as I said, I understand that the reward system encourages those who aren't good enough at the time to manipulate matches. The only problem I have is when people think that is a legitimate way of attaining legend. It's not. It's exploitation, and they know it."

I have helped quite a few people with wins myself (not so much as of late though) my main reason for the ping pong is to build the chips and pot if they could use the win then im happy for them to have it with me gaining something in return, but i totally understand where you and others are coming from.

i dont recall anybody helping me as probably with the first 10-20 legends. i was within a win of the legends league then i was back down to level 2 in the blink of an eye. I earned my legends spot so im glad about that how others get theirs is not really any of my concern as i know how i got there.

some people just need a little help from their friends.

[xitooner]

Indirectly addressing somebody seems cowardly, in my opinion.

That might be another way to view the "Naming and Shaming" policy, yes. Its been fun summarizing the "Leaderboard Scoring & Time Inaccuracies" topic, beleive me. But take a closer look at what I said were personal attacks and consider how those comments could be construed to fall under that same policy as well.

Why should people who got to legend legit be in the same grouping as those who won matches through agreements with their opponents? Is it an "accomplishment" to convince people to let you win? In the real world, it's only an accomplishment when you earn it by your own merit.

Its a valid philosophical point, and as long as it stays philosophical its a great discussion topic.

Why? Because the game lets them work together? Can you stop it? EVER? Can RL stop it? We'll see in the next update, maybe. Might it make more sense to focus on getting the game improved to avoid the issue, and not denigrate the people who are simply playing the game they have been given? If RL DOESNT fix it in the next release, does that mean they approve? (of course not, but I couldnt resist tossing that in there; they have bigger fish to fry, IMO)

Alas, none of us are judge and jury for the ethics of the game, however much we want to be. I still havent seen a rule book for this game...... players are playing, having fun, and arent bothering you. That they have reached legends and (in your eyes) their muddy shoes have somehow soiled the hallowed carpet there... really isnt a big deal, is it?

[LerryJawler]

i doubt most people that got help to get into legends really cares about the legitimacy anyway.

probably the best way for rl to make a difference there is to make the tracks available a different way so people dont feel as much need to boost for them. the reality is there is probably only a large handful of people really committed to legends ranking anyway. the majority are in it so that their rewards are safe and they can focus on gathering resources.

[llDumptruckll]

Nobody should do something good for the community for a reward, but that's what was happening.

A reward and getting recognition are separate things. While the old system did mean well, it obviously wasn't received the same way. I like the idea of democraticly voting for things though. Rewards might not be the way to go, but being recognized by the community might be more feasible. I often felt that with the TF and Wrench awards, people who got them would often slack off in the community and ride the coat tails of their award as long as they could.

I would relate a solution for this similar to getting a promotion at work. When you get a promotion, you tend to want to work harder for fear of losing that promotion or worse, getting fired. Or something along the lines of, "the community can giveth, the community can taketh it away. A system set up like that would be more of a by the people, for the people sort of thing.

Thoughts anyone?

[LerryJawler]

i think this community does a good enough job recognizing each other already. everytime someone has started a thread documenting upgrades, rewards, maps, etc the OP always seems to go out of there way to mention all contributors.