Many tracks I've seen recently have what I consider to be a major flaw in their lighting. When you play the tracks, there are no shadows anywhere, from the rider or from stationary objects. Often, this has been done deliberately in an effort to improve performance. However, it leaves the tracks feeling very flat and lifeless compared to a track with good lighting.
There are several ways to do the lighting corrrectly in a track. If its set outside in daytime, then simply using the environment settings suffices. If its nighttime, then these settings can still be used effectively or in conjunction with dynam and static lights. When working indoors, it is still possible to use environment lighting in sections if it is done carefully but is more likely to achieved effectively with a combination of dynamic and static lights.
In an effort to highlight this, I have made an extremely simple 3 sided structure lit in 5 different ways. By watching the video below, you should be able to see the difference between all the tracks. In particular you should be able to see how flat the track looks when there is only light provided by point lights and/or nothing else.
I would be interested to hear what people think about this (including the devs if they feel so inclined) and wether it is even something that people notice, or pay particular attention to when either riding or creating a track.
Edit: I had to add this post fro mcannibal shogun to the op as he know far better than I do! lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by CannibalShogun
Nice to see people talking about this, it's been something that has been bothering me since launch. I've seen some really nice looking tracks in the decoration and drive line department that i just can't justify giving a good rating because the lighting was completely flat. In my eyes it's a balance. A really good track pays attention to every aspect of track creation and lighting is a very important one. Imagine going to the movies and seeing one with a great story and acting but the cinematography has had no thought put into it all, 99 times out of 100 that's going to be considered a bad movie.
That being said I do think it is possible to create dynamic lighting looks without using dynamic lights. Shadows are good because they are a great way to create depth in a track, but you can also create that depth with other lighting options when the dynamic lights just aren't going to work. Flyer's track Lost Future is a great example of this. The track uses background action, static lights, colors and effects to create a great sense of depth throught the whole track to the point where I never really noticed that there weren't any shadows. And that's the main thing about lighting, it's not really that you have to have dynamic lights, it's just that you need to spend some time on lighting to make it look good, if that means dynamic lghts than great, but if you come up with other ways to do it that's all good as well. The worst thing you can do is spend a long time creating a nice track then just use only the ground and sky environment lights to light it (which i've seen many times now).
For me I try to always use at least the sunlight in some way so that there are some shadows cast from that. If interiors are too complex for dynamic lights (which is often) than the point light is great. Light the background differently from the drive line, find ways to make the rider or certain obstacles/scenery stand out. But whatever you do, if your track is having performance issues don't just sacrifice lighting to save your decorrations.
I thoroughly agree. Lighting is so important to the theme of a track. I hate it when I see that hours have gone into decorating and then the lighting has been killed. Dead is the right word, lighting can help make a track feel much more vibrant and alive.
I understand that it can help with performance, but the same can be said about complex decorations. If you are willing and able to spend hours on a driving line and decoration, why not spend and hour or two on getting the lighting to work out?
@boris - That's spam, sir.
01-11-2013
nannerdw
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Always try to place lights in places that will enhance the detail. Even if you're just using pointlights, try placing them in a position so that the light will glance off of an object's bump maps. You can bring out a ton of detail in rock objects and brick walls just by letting the light fall on them at the right angle, and try to keep the brightness relatively low, or you'll wash out the bump map detail.
01-11-2013
stiggyhead
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
I agree with the OP, i figured this out a while ago while wathcing some random trials hd replay.
If you look at my track Crimson Wine (shameless plug, booo) i used a lot of differently colored point lights and some directional lights and it really gives the track a better look than what i would've obtained by just using the ground/sky ambient light or the light of the sun.
01-11-2013
rlmergeuser
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Yup. Makes a so-so track look great.
01-11-2013
rlmergeuser
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrybarfly
Many tracks I've seen recently have what I consider to be a major flaw in their lighting. When you play the tracks, there are no shadows anywhere, from the rider or from stationary objects. Often, this has been done deliberately in an effort to improve performance. However, it leaves the tracks feeling very flat and lifeless compared to a track with good lighting.
There are several ways to do the lighting corrrectly in a track. If its set outside in daytime, then simply using the environment settings suffices. If its nighttime, then these settings can still be used effectively or in conjunction with dynam and static lights. When working indoors, it is still possible to use environment lighting in sections if it is done carefully but is more likely to achieved effectively with a combination of dynamic and static lights.
In an effort to highlight this, I have made an extremely simple 3 sided structure lit in 5 different ways. By watching the video below, you should be able to see the difference between all the tracks. In particular you should be able to see how flat the track looks when there is only light provided by point lights and/or nothing else.
I would be interested to hear what people think about this (including the devs if they feel so inclined) and wether it is even something that people notice, or pay particular attention to when either riding or creating a track.
a beautiful demonstration of the importance of lighting and shades
it would be although you continue the examples with on the last piece of the different tests with fog, camera effects, color sunlight and site of the sun (in front of, behind…) - to see evolving/moving a track
, all the four will create the environment of a track
still cheer of this demonstration
01-11-2013
Surrur
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
When I start making tracks I always begin with lightning. I think lighning is the most important thing because thats what makes the overall feeling.
defo agree a great example of how lighting can really make a huge difference to a track. Sadly its not always to clear cut.
Take my last track ;
i had HUGE problems just getting it to run as well as it did ( and even now there are area's that aren't perfect ), if i had dynamic shadows, the track would have been unplayable with both screan tarring and more pixcellation than you could wave a big stick at.
To date, i have never built anything on the ground, and always build in the sky. This helps with the complexity ( not 100% sure with lighting ). But when you add lots of diffent lights along with a **** tone of detail something has to give and often results in pixcellation. It was the same in HD, only to a lesser degree.
I know you wasn't having a pop at me, but i wanted to point out that its not so cut & dry as adding dynamic lighting to everything
I know you wasn't having a pop at me, but i wanted to point out that its not so cut & dry as adding dynamic lighting to everything
If you add a mix of static and dynamic lights in the most noticeable areas, with point lights in other areas that need light, you can usually get something working.
Even if it's only one section that has dynamic shadows it can change the feel for the whole track and trick your brain into up-converting it to 1080-awesome*.
*Scientific Term
01-11-2013
rlmergeuser
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftySamurai
If you add a mix of static and dynamic lights in the most noticeable areas, with point lights in other areas that need light, you can usually get something working.
Even if it's only one section that has dynamic shadows it can change the feel for the whole track and trick your brain into up-converting it to 1080-awesome*.
*Scientific Term
i did try a number of different ways, but this time nothing seemed to work. I used pointlights for the blue and orange areas, and made each area seperate to the other in the hopes of adding better lighting. During testing, i had HUGE issue with pixcellation, and found the only way to reducing it was to remove dynamic lighting, and recuce the area of the pointlights - but even this wasn't perfect.
I would have loved to have had dynamic shadows, not just on the rider but on other items.
01-11-2013
Barrybarfly
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
I can appreciate that in a track with a lot of light sources it can be tricky to try and get some dynamic lighting into the track. However, a lot of the tracks I have seen, where the lighting has been killed, dont even have that issue. They are simply left totally flat. While I still believe there was a solution for your track, it would have been tricky. Whereas certain tracks could have had it done very easily and yet it wasnt.
Its good to see some people agreeing with the concept and even better to see someone post saying its not something they've considered before, but they will now. Until this was pointed out to me and I was given two tracks to compare, I didnt realise how much of a difference it could make myself! So its good to know I've at least passed the info onto someone else and hopefully helped them out as well. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/wink.gif
01-11-2013
Oski
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surround
When I start making tracks I always begin with lightning. I think lighning is the most important thing because thats what makes the overall feeling.
I usually do the lighting last, which is a mistake because of how much it affects the looks of the track.
Depending on what kind of track it is, either 1st or 5th.
01-11-2013
rlmergeuser
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
There probably was more I could have done, I'm not the best in the editor.
Like I said I do 100% agree with Bary. Some people don't even try to make their tracks look interesting.
01-11-2013
Barrybarfly
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYER80
There probably was more I could have done, I'm not the best in the editor.
Like I said I do 100% agree with Bary. Some people don't even try to make their tracks look interesting.
I dunno, you're pretty damn good in my book mate! I've been working with lighting for a couple of months, experimenting, trying different things and so on. I certainly wouldnt claim to be an expert when it comes to executing it myself, but i can tell you that I have discovered it is probably the most fiddly, difficult aspect of some tracks. When working outside, its pretty straightforward tbh and there really is no excuse for dead lighting, as shown by the RL tracks, which always have active lighting.
But when you're working indoors it becomes a totally different prospect and can be really tricky to pull it off, particularly if there are several "types/uses" of lighting in one area. As Shifty said, one trick is to resort to static lighting for those areas so that the objects there have shadows. If the areas either side of that have dynamic shadows, then the static section feels more active as your eye is used to seeing shadows from the rider. So when it sees shadows from the objects it assumes the riders shadow is there somewhere too. Particularly if there is no floor/wall close to the rider. Then it seems as if the shadow is simply cast somewhere without a reflective surface.
It becomes a game of illusion and misdirection in some cases tbh! LOL
01-11-2013
rlmergeuser
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
I use lighting for atmospheric apsects, like the feels and look of a track but if there is a part of a track that is barely visible is will light it usually with enviro settings. If that is not possible then a very dim and low-ranged point light suffices. But when i changed enviro settings i try hard to blend colours and not make any 1 of them stand out more than another, especially shadows vs ground colour, i try to make more natural and realistic enviros with th DL visible, unfortunatly none of these ideas are directly shown in any of my tracks, but they would i i made one now. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/wink.gifhttp://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_redface.gif
01-11-2013
NasT65
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Well done Barry and rillo, and thx for pointing this out to everyone. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/clap.gif
Obviously I am guilty of having tracks with dead light, but I will definetly try to not let it happen anymore. What is most astounding to me is just how flat 2 dimensional and almost cartoony a great track can look with dead light. Also once someone shows you the difference on a track, or with a vid like you have done, it's very easy to notice dead lighting, but so easy to miss if no one has ever showed you. Well done again guys and thx. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/clap.gif
01-11-2013
Jarr3tt88
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LitTlExJeZuZ
I use lighting for atmospheric apsects, like the feels and look of a track but if there is a part of a track that is barely visible is will light it usually with enviro settings. If that is not possible then a very dim and low-ranged point light suffices. But when i changed enviro settings i try hard to blend colours and not make any 1 of them stand out more than another, especially shadows vs ground colour, i try to make more natural and realistic enviros with th DL visible, unfortunatly none of these ideas are directly shown in any of my tracks, but they would i i made one now. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/wink.gifhttp://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_redface.gif
I do exactly what you do for lighting. Since most of my tracks are outdoors, I play with the environment colors, than place indoor point lights as necessary. Lighting is relatively easy to do in evo compared to THD.
01-11-2013
rlmergeuser
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
definately agree barry. definately somthing i need to improve on. I think my lighting is generally ok "plenty room for improvement" but the use of shadow is somthing i aint explored as much but plan to. For a brilliant example of shadow check out the wcc track it's called Antanuga inc by NorfaiR76. I think he got round some of the performance issues by making the shadow a bit lighter in certain areas "just my guess" allthough you can see a shadow of the rider through out the whole track. Over all very nice track to look at and the silloette of the rider looks awsome. Which is great because i have been playing this track allot partly cause it's solid to get a decent run.
The last decent track i made Ultimate skillz v3 i wanted to have dynamic lighting in certain areas but i found it turned it into a laggy mess. Shifty is probably right though if i had spent the time i could have made it work. But at the time it felt like the least of my worries. One thing i have come to believe is that somtimes the performance limits can be a blessing in disguise "not allways" as often when i have had to comprimise it has meant that i have refined areas that wouldn't have been refined and ended up with somthing better than if i had got what i wanted in the first place.
The next track i make lighting and shadow is somthing i will definately be thinking about.
01-11-2013
Barrybarfly
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Yeah, big thanks to morrillo for capturing the footage for this. Having a visual reference made it all a lot easier to try and explain! lol
01-12-2013
LethalGangsta82
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Nice vid mate,we'v had a few "discussions" about this before lol.i totally agree that shadows make a big difference in a track and your vid defo proves it but i honestly dont think its essential as most of the time i never notice stuff like that as i'm too busy trying to get a good run.as long as the dl is good then i'm happy,i just think it's a bonus if it looks good http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/wink.gif
01-12-2013
DJ_2wItchY
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
shadows are deffinitely important to me as it enhances the atmosphere to the track big style, but this is another reason why i don't make indoor tracks. i put a lot of detail into one frameshot and putting one source of light in my track gives me so many issues with tears when making a track outside, never mind inside. i'm currently making a track that is set at night but the lighting is still there like normal and easily done. pointlights to me, seem like the only good lighting that gives a good effect. the other lights have a cut off line on them an look tacky.
another little issue is if you make an indoor track and you set the sunlight to aim into the building, it gives off the feeling that the track is fully open on the righthand side of the biker and doesn't give the sence that you are actually indoors which can also look tacky. as people have said before, your going to have to put a lot of effort into doing lighting properly and carefully on an indoor track. this is why i make outdoor tracks so i can focus more on detail and not have to worry about desroying the track with flat looking track issues.
01-12-2013
Barrybarfly
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
The trick is to use point lights off of the line and dynamic lighting on it. This reduces the sharpness of the lights "edge" without killing the shadows. Also, by using environment settings in conjunction with point lights and dynamic or static lights, you can help prevent it from looking like the track is ALL lighted from one side. Of course, its all dependant on the type of track, the style and the construction as to which combination of lighting is best. You can also use the environment lighting/area conditioners to provide a shadow for the rider/objects, but not the tracks atmospheric lighting. So you can use it in one or two areas where you may otherwise of had performance issues from dynamic lights.
There are so many ways of doing it that its impossible to try and list them all. But I honestly believe there is always a way of getting shadows into a track, to add to its deco and atmosphere. The difference shadows can make to a track is massive and always worth the effort imo.
01-12-2013
jook13
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Nice demonstration Barry! I am with Flyer on this though.
For me, it is always a constant struggle to avoid lag and screen tear when lighting. I cant count how many times I have been like "Ok... fine. I will change that to a wall light." Because I dont care how flat it looks, I will have boring lighting before I have a track with lag in it. But considering how much random objects I cram into each section of track, I think I do OK with lights. I can certainly improve though.
01-13-2013
Smeghead89
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
great thread bazza this is definitely a well needed discussion, lighting is one of the most important aspects of a track and needs to be executed carefully.
when i start a track the 1st thing i do is to set the natural light colors and light direction to choose which way i want the majority of my shadows to go. Combining background fog in the environment settings to match the color of the shadows can look good for a realistic dark environment look and the use of point light in areas that are too dark. If i use lights which cast shadows i usually have them visible so you can see which direction this new light source is coming from.
Silhouettes can look cool having the rider and obstacles dark and matching the shadows but needs strong light behind all objects so their edges stand out properly. Things like fog, ground ambient, sky ambient and sunlight color are all important to get right too and if done well should be complimented by the use of shadows creating the perfect environment.
When working indoors (which i haven't really done since trials hd) its very different and all your shadows and lights need to be placed individually. You need to think about if you want to also use sunlight through windows as well as static lights indoors, too many lights in different directions will cut off shadows and everything could start to look strange with no dark edges or sides or shadows.
Imo as much effort needs to be put into the lighting as does the making of the actual track and it is usually important to have this lighting set before you start or as you go along because trying to do it after you have made the track can be very difficult to get right and parts could need to be remade http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...con_e_wink.gif
01-13-2013
nannerdw
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
If you're making an outdoor track, try to use the sunlight shadows as much as possible, and use pointlights to light up the background areas. If you're placing a 1-sided object, such as a rock face, only the light hitting the visible surfaces will cast shadows. If you want realistic shadows from a one-sided object, you'll have to place another object above it to cast the shadow. The silo roof works really well for covering a large area in shadow, and it's also invisible from underneath. I used this technique for all of the cliff-face shadows in Shantytown.
If you want to make sure that two light sources are not interfering with each other, temporarily set their brightness to max while you move them around, so it's easy to see the exact extent of their illumination.
Also, remember to turn off the bike's headlight unless it really adds to the atmosphere of the track. You might even want to toggle the headlight off when entering will-lit areas.
01-13-2013
Smeghead89
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nannerdw
If you're making an outdoor track, try to use the sunlight shadows as much as possible, and use pointlights to light up the background areas. If you're placing a 1-sided object, such as a rock face, only the light hitting the visible surfaces will cast shadows. If you want realistic shadows from a one-sided object, you'll have to place another object above it to cast the shadow. The silo roof works really well for covering a large area in shadow, and it's also invisible from underneath. I used this technique for all of the cliff-face shadows in Shantytown.
If you want to make sure that two light sources are not interfering with each other, temporarily set their brightness to max while you move them around, so it's easy to see the exact extent of their illumination.
Also, remember to turn off the bike's headlight unless it really adds to the atmosphere of the track. You might even want to toggle the headlight off when entering will-lit areas.
iv used this technique too, i havent used a silo roof which (is a good idea) but i have used trees overhead and out of view to cast large shadows over areas and because of the nature of trees having no straight edges then the shadow blends off much more naturally, it also has patches of no shadow which can look good casting shadow on some objects and light on others plus you can get a nice effect with trees and sunlight sometimes casting a pattern of green lights onto the floor
01-14-2013
BlastergamerX
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Can this topic get stickied? It's very helpful for track making!
01-14-2013
Surrur
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Usually you see that people havent thought a bit of visulization if they are using default skies.
With good reference you can actually make pretty cool skies.
01-22-2013
empecee
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
to be fair if the track . line ,decor and background is good i hardly notice .. if its there its there . if not im not bothered . some tracks suit it some dont . and some noob builders like myself struggle with lighting and effex . and just get to a point and stop out of frustration .and some people like smeg seem to have it in there blood . i think it depends on the circumstance . in your video i just see 4 versions of the same track .all seem fine to me . i would love to have smegs eye . but i dont. so you get the best i can do . witch sometimes isnt a bad thing . just different ..there thats my opinion . http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on/biggrin.gif
01-22-2013
Morfyboy
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
light can make a massive difference.. everyone that builds should really get used to the lighting in the editor...its a massive programme.. theres loads you can do with light believe me... you can create all kinds of illusions...i personally go out of my way to create shadows,etc by putting objects in the sky...this is one thing i try to spend time on....
for me, lighting is always last..now that i have everything down on paper as to what and how im doing things, i leave the light to the end..i can then give the track its 'look' n 'feel' once my objects, obstacles etc,etc, are down...
kudos to FLYER80 for volunteering to use an example...but it was still a top track mate...
great topic..
01-23-2013
D2Dahaka
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
Once I adjusted to the depth good lighting gives to the overall image, there's no going back. Tracks with the lighting killed look very flat no matter how detailed they are IMHO. Once upon a time i never paid attention and couldn't tell the difference, but now they stick out like a sore thumb. I've seen the light so to speak.
flyer 80s track was mint .. he used light in the white edging on the ramps . and point lights when needed .i dont think shadows on that track would have worked. would have looked messy ..it reminded me of tron . it was well lit as i could see where i was going , and he wanted that futuristic style .
01-23-2013
Morfyboy
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
let us for a minute think about the editor..it has a whole massive section just for the lighting alone..it probably took some guy/guys a long time to do and cost 10 of thousands of pounds to do..with this alone, i dont think we should dismiss the lighting very easily...
there is so much to gain by spending time using this feature...light in evo for me, now im understanding and learning always, is a big factor in building great 5* tracks to be proud of.. i dont think im near that level yet, but i will be one day..
01-23-2013
BlastergamerX
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
I ask again:
Can this topic get stickied?
01-23-2013
empecee
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
me to morfy . my new track is nearly finished . and its ram packed full of shadows and light . but to be honest im really not sure what im doing . im just experimenting and its trial and error .i hate lighting tracks because i dont know what im doing .i really think there are people like i said b4 like smeg who have a natural talent for this stuff and there are people like me who just like making lines and dread having to light it afterwards .
01-23-2013
Morfyboy
Re: The Importance of Lighting in Tracks.
well, i had an idea for that..i know it was a bit of a cop out, but i re-released a few tracks for the gecko n banshee, just so i could experiment with more effects...they actually turned out alot better than i anticipated...
building tracks is certainly time consuming, and im 40 in a few weeks...i havnt got alot more years in me when it comes to gaming, and also have a family...i just want to crack the building lark..my only problem is,theres something different every day that i get taught...i think we all have strengths though mate..you can only get better is what i stick to, and if i learn something for the better off each track, then that'll do for me..., i wouldnt have it any other way..... http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon/wink.gif