Ninja Track Video Leaderboard
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Ninja Track Video Leaderboard
Click here to view the Ninja Track Video Leaderboard.
(Right click and choose "open in new window" or "open in new tab" to keep this window open.)
PLEASE READ:
I've inherited the responsibility of managing these Ninja Track Leaderboards from jhop420 with his consent. If you'd like to add a new track or replay, please post a link in this thread.
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Rules & Regulations:
Player Rules:
Utilizing alternate end points or design flaws that allow you to bypass 50% or more of a track will render your score and replay unfit for these leaderboards.
Overcoming obstacles using alternate and/or unintended methods is completely acceptable. Utilizing shortcuts whether intended or unintended, is also completely acceptable provided that in doing so you don't skip 50% or more of a track.
This means that pushing explosives out of your way like in Ye Scurvy Dog, Concrete Hell, or Certain Death is fine. Taking unintended shortcuts like in Hellzone is fine, because this only skips a few obstacles - far less than 50% of the track.
Creator Rules:
Once you have submitted a track to these leaderboards, please DO NOT update or modify the drive line!
Even if no one has uploaded replays yet, if the track has been sitting in the Pending Submissions for a while it's likely that a lot of players have it. This means that someone could very likely waste hours of time getting a good replay on an old version of a track only to find out that their replay doesn't count when they upload it because the track has been changed.
Making minor tweaks and adjustments to fix bad lighting, lag, etc. is perfectly fine. Even subtle tweaks to the drive line have to happen from time to time. Feel free to update scenery, lighting, etc to your heart's content. If you feel the need to update your track please try to have as little impact on the drive line as possible. The goal is to make sure that any existing replays on older versions of the track can still be considered legitimate, which wouldn't be the case if major changes are made to the drive line.
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I know there's a lot of debate as to whether or not the "Level" system works, but personally I like it a lot, so it stays. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gif
That being said, please feel free to speak up if:
- You have a link to a video of a new track you believe qualifies to be added to this leaderboard.
- You think there is a track on this leaderboard that does not qualify as Ninja.
- You think a track would more accurately fit into a different Level of Ninja.
Note that I will take your feedback much more seriously if you've actually played the track you're debating, or of course if you created the track yourself. The reason for this is that it's much harder to judge the difficulty of a track simply by watching a video of someone else playing it - An inexperienced player can make King of the Hill look like a Ninja track, while JJtheGerman makes Bounce look easy. 'Nuff said.
-BLAH-
here is shadows run on Groundhog Never.
its ninja, id say the first group but i made it, so maybe others consider it harder.
nice job on the new list http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...con_e_wink.gif
New Tracks:
Bangin' by o SKUMBAG o added to Level 1, with replays by RedRider686 and Jarr3tt88.
Command Respect by o SKUMBAG o added to Level 1, with replays by RedRider686, JJtheGerman, Murdoc Loch, and jhop420.
Groundhog High by o SKUMBAG o added to Level 1, with replay by RedRider686.
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Moonshine by xIRON WARLORDx added to Level 1, with his own replay.
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Ninja Steps by Jarr3tt88 added to Level 1, with his own replay.
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Fogged Up Night by QcChopper added to Level 1, with his own replay.
Hardkore by QcChopper added to Level 1, with replay by swifteh.
Idiocy by QcChopper added to Level 1, with replay by CypherDextrous.
What The F? by QcChopper added to Level 1, with replay by CypherDextrous.
What The H? by QcChopper added to Level 1, with replay by CypherDextrous.
What The S? by QcChopper added to Level 1, with replay by CypherDextrous.
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Cameltoe by R0T IN added to Level 1, with replays by JJtheGerman and Murdoc Loch.
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Zion Project by jhop420 added to Level 2, with his own replay.
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Project X by HEETSAUCE added to Level 2, with replay by B0R15 0 BR13N
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Hanging Clinker by QcChopper added to Level 2, with his own replay.
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New Replays:
jhop420's replay on his own track, Corporate Ladder (Level 1) - 2nd place
Jarr3tt88's replay on his own track, Electroninja (Level 1) - 3rd place
Jarr3tt88's replay on Walkout by PuolukkaRasisti (Level 1) - 3rd place
I should note that I have played every one of the new tracks I just added myself, although I have yet to record and upload my own replays. I judged them all based on having played literally every track that was already on the leaderboards, and I did my best to add them to the most accurate difficulty level.
I would also like to make a special note about Command Respect by o SKUMBAG o:
I am aware that o SKUMBAG o himself claims that this track is not Ninja, but based on the vast number of both Extreme and Ninja tracks I've played, I really feel like it is. It took me just as long to 0-fault this track as it did for many of his other Ninja tracks like Astral Heat, Bangin', Citadel, and Groundhog High. I'm guessing it just seems easier to him since he created it. I'd be curious to hear opinions from other people who have played it though, especially if they have also played his other Ninja tracks.
Just to stress that I'm not trying to qualify every questionable track as Ninja, I agreed with other creators who disqualified their own tracks as Ninja after playing the tracks myself. Shallow Grave by JJtheGerman and The Logician by Murdoc Loch both used to be on these leaderboards, but both Murdoc and JJ claimed their tracks to not be Ninja, and I agreed. I think The Logician is a difficult Extreme track, maybe on par with Diabolic or Pilgrimage, while Shallow Grave is more of an average Extreme track. Command Respect however is clearly WAY harder than any of the in-game extreme tracks, and even a little harder than a few other already-qualified Level 1 Ninja tracks.
New Track:
Groundhog Never by WILLYUMZ added to Level 1, with replay by T4K Shadow. (As far as I could tell from his YouTube channel this is his GT... correct me if I'm wrong.)
I'll try out this track myself as soon as I can to see if I think the Level 1 rating is fitting. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
sent you a friend request http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
as for command respect, i love the track and while it is up to skum to define his own work, i guess you could call it ninja based on how hard it is to zero-fault compared with other tracks already considered ninja grade. for me, the pipes require some 'ninjitsu', the rest is a fairly hard extreme track.
Yep, you pretty much expressed my exact thoughts. If there was a track in which every section was as challenging as the pipe section in Command Respect it would probably be a Ninja Level 2 track. But as you said the rest of the track is much more Extreme than Ninja. The way I see it an Extreme track with one "Level 2 Ninja" obstacle should qualify as a Level 1. Also the obstacle at 0:37 seconds in Red's replay is a little Ninja-y, but still not anywhere near as hard as the pipes.Quote:
Originally Posted by WILLYUMZ
Awesome! Lets keep this thread alive! I intend to get a few runs on some of these tracks.
And I did this run on command respect a while ago... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23SS86orHs4 1.18.322
When I saw that I was thinking how the hell did I miss your run when I searched on YouTube yesterday for Trials HD Command Respect?Quote:
Originally Posted by jook13
Then I saw the video name - "respect", with no description, and only one keyword - "respect". Lol...
Maybe you don't care, but I'm sure a lot more people would see this replay if you called the track by its full name and at least added "Trials HD" and "o SKUMBAG o" to your description or keywords... more keywords couldn't hurt either. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon_razz.gif
Anyway, I added your replay to the leaderboards. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
Its no big deal, I put that up to show skum a while back.
Malachyte - Nice work bring this back to life Doctor Frankenstein
I just wanted to put in my two cents about ninja levels:
Ninja "levels" are subjective - It really depends on who is playing the track - It seems to me that if the track has a low fault count then it is considered easier - I disagree with this logic - to me if a ninja track has a lower fault count it means it has a driveline worth playing - It has replay value - IMO the tracks that are getting portrayed as the harder ninjas are that way because no one wants to play them - for example badlands is much harder then ambidextrous - but badlands has a great driveline with great techniques so many people play and replay it bringing the fault count down to zero - ambidextrous is not really a standout ninja track so not to many people play it and therefore it's perceived as a much harder track then it actually is.
A hard obstacle for the sake of hard without good a technique (and more importantly a technique that can be learned to be done consistently) is not hard in the sense that an obstacle should be - it's hard in the sense that jumping off of a building and living is hard - there is nothing to learn how to do - it's random luck - because AM 2, AM 3, Bounce, Superhuman, etc. have been zeroed and treetops has not treetops is seen has harder - and i guess it is but who cares if it's harder or if it is ninja level 29 - if the cameras are upsidedown and backwards with gravity on a rotation hinge and you have to jump 99 blue electric boxes without checkpoints it's the hardest thing ever but who cares - levels make no sense if we base them on faults and/because-of inconsistent obstacles.
I realize that what is inconsistent is relevant and that what I find to be inconsistent another may not - Also it is and was not my intention to dis life or picklez, those tracks are just the two I find to be grossly exaggerated as far as difficulty goes.
-ML
11.489 on Pond Skippin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmZg5MhQPV8
Added to the leaderboards. Funny you posted this just now because I was working on that track yesterday. I came really close to clearing that rock towards the end like you did several times, but gave up on the idea and went for a slower 0-fault run. Nice work!Quote:
Originally Posted by jhitman
Thanks! I hope to keep this thread active and keep the list of tracks up to date for as long as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
Before I reply to any of your specific comments I'm going to quote what I said about this subject myself in jhop's old Ninja thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
I'd still like to reply to some of your comments specifically though, because I would definitely like the difficulty of these tracks represented as accurately as possible on these leaderboards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachyte
Of course, which is why I'm always open to hearing as many opinions as possible, and open to the idea of moving certain tracks between levels, or even off the Ninja leaderboards altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
I agree that this is the wrong approach to determining the difficulty of a track. You obviously can't just compare your fault counts on a tracks you've played through once compared to ones you've played through dozens of times and practiced a lot on. However this has never been my approach to analyzing Ninja tracks. For me, I've either played a track once or twice, or I've put a ton of work into it. There's really no inbetween. Once I've played a track a couple of times I either decide to practice it relentlessly to go for a 0-fault run or save it for later.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
This makes it easier for me to analyze Ninja tracks because comparing one "first run" to another seems fairly accurate, and comparing how long it took to 0-fault one track compared to another also seems accurate. Now I understand that players like yourself and JJ are far better than me still, but here are the approximate stats I've come up for myself:
Level 1 - 50 to 200 faults on first run, 2 - 6 hours of practice to 0-fault.
Level 2 - 200+ faults on first run, several days of practice to 0-fault.
Level 3 - Ran out of time or faults on first run and in some cases even the second run, several weeks to several months of practice to 0-fault. ( I know I only have AM-2 to as a reference to use at this point. )
Level 4 - Ran out of time or faults more than three times before finishing the track. (Yes, I actually ran out of time on Treetops 6 times before finally finishing it. I never ran out of time or faults more than twice on any of the Level 3 tracks.)
Obviously I will have to adjust these "cutoff points" as I improve, but they seem to work well for me now.
I have only played through both of these tracks once, but based on my initial runs I disagree. Badlands took maybe 15 minutes and a few hundred faults, and I ran out of time on Abidextrous once before completing it on my second try, and my run was still worse than my first run on Badlands. On a side note I certainly agree that Badlands is a much more well thought out track - the drive line as well as the scenery. I do plan to try to 0-fault both of these eventually, so I'll see how long they each take me. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
I agree, but I don't think that very many obstacles in the tracks on this leaderboard are like this. You of all Trials players should understand that even an insane obstacle that feels like luck to overcome at first can be learned with a lot of practice. Take your 1st place run on Inferno II for example - pushing that TNT box with your front wheel. If I tried that I'm sure it would feel like luck to me whether I got it or not, but after practicing as much as I'm sure you did, you started to learn more consistent techniques. The same is true for any obstacle in Trials. I took a REALLY long time to learn a semi-consistent strategy for the 8th obstacle on AM-2, but the more I practiced, the better I got. For the first few WEEKS I was working on this track that part always felt like luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
I disagree again, sorry. Treetops is clearly significantly harder than any of those. First of all, Superhuman is one of the easiest Level 2 tracks - I had only a couple hundred faults on my first run and it took me less than a day to 0-fault. AM-2, AM-3, and Bounce are all insanely hard, but I think more people play them compared to Treetops simply because they are more well known. Lots of people in the Trials community have heard of you or RedRider686, but not as many have heard of Lifeonaboard. In addition, AM-2 and Bounce have been around a lot longer than Treetops. I know that AM-3 is a more recent track, but c'mon, you can't tell me JJ wouldn't eventually 0-fault Treetops if he put his mind to it. He just decided to work on AM-3 instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
Once I've put more time into Treetops and other Level 3 tracks besides AM-2 I will be happy to re-evaluate my opinion, but for now based on how long it took me to even PASS Treetops compared to any of the Level 3 tracks makes it stand out.
First of all, if someone tried to submit a supposed Ninja track to these leaderboards which they claimed to be Ninja simply because of any of that stuff - upside down cameras, lots of obstacles with no checkpoints, etc. I would not add it. I agree, that would be stupid. However Treetops doesn't have any of this... In fact it doesn't even have a single custom camera or physics obstacle as far as I can tell, and the checkpoints are as close together as the drive line allows for. Sure the obstacles are all insanely hard, but I believe that consistent techniques can be learned for all of them with enough practice. In addition, I'd say that while the design is fairly minimal, Treetops is very creatively built and I kinda like the look of it. Even the obstacles have a certain flow to them when you do them right, unlike a "messy" track like Ambidextrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
I don't think it's a matter of what you find inconsistent versus what other players do. If you practiced the obstacles you currently find to be inconsistent, you would learn them consistent techniques for them eventually (more quickly than most players I might add), even if that would take several hours to several days of practice, depending on the difficulty of the obstacle. When I first got into Trials a few years ago I felt like getting over the pile of boxes at the beginning of King Of The Hill was all luck. Now I could do it 100 times in a row with my eyes closed, so to speak. The beauty of Trials is that when you really get down to it, there are virtually no "random" or inconsistent factors, and even the most insane obstacles can be learned over time by strategy, technique, and muscle memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
All of that being said, if you think there is a better way to arrange the tracks by difficulty than the current Level system, please let me know! I think discarding the level system altogether is a bad idea. I like knowing how much time I can expect to dedicate when I set out to 0-fault a Level 1 track Vs. a Level 2 or Level 3, and the Level ratings really help me with this.
/Sorry for the novel of a post...
Holy **** that is one long post!
Malachyte -
An obstacle can require just as much if not more skill/technique and be overcome with less faults/time if it is properly designed with proper techniques - If you've learned all the techniques from am 2 and another track uses those techniques then you're going to get through it faster and with lower faults - This makes the track seem easier than it actually is - Once the techniques are learned it does not make the obstacles less difficult - Throwing poorly designed and spaced obstacles with misplaced checkpoints together is hard - And while you're right that you or I or JJ or anyone can spend the time to learn how they work and even zero fault them it does not make them harder in the sense that they should be - let me explain what I mean by should be - there are certain skills and techniques that trials requires in various degrees throughout the game - weather it's spring jumping, switch jumping, landing on a slanted surface, all of these and more can be used, together and apart to create difficulty in obstacles - adding a poorly placed camera or blocking the view of the rider is a way to make the game harder, not in the way that it "should be" but in a way that makes the player uncomfortable - and while there is, as you say, a way to learn how to do these uncomfortable obstacles I feel that it's not at the core of what skill/technique we use to play/rate the difficulty with - It's hard but not for the right reasons - the upsidedown camera comment was just an exaggeration - my point is that those tracks are a bit uncomfortable
perhaps you got though badlands quicker because of heetsauce's design and not because it requires less skill - it requires skills you have already learned
I'm not really sure that the level system is wrong or needs fixing - I think it's better then nothing at all - I just wanted to have a conversation about acquired skill vs unacquired skill - BTW I really enjoy this conversation and look forward to continuing the discussion
-ML
track made by ML- i would put this on par with AM-3 in terms of difficulty, level 2 or 3?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCmfLhbFXA&hd=1
Nice to see this topic alive and well again.
I have nothing against the different levels of ninjaness, BUT; I hate to go through 3 different difficulty levels when i'm trying to find a certain track (if i don't know in which difficulty level it is).
So, what i suggest is; just have a one list including all the tracks regardless of the difficulty level, and in alphabetical order, and have like 1-3 of these little faces after the track name: http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_twisted.gif Telling how hard it is. One face meaning it is a level-1 ninja, and 2 faces meaning it is level-2 ninja, and so on.
This way I could just find the creators name and see all his different level of ninja tracks in one place without having to look one track from 3 different places. Would make it easier to find a spesific track.
Hope that makes some sense.
edit: oh and BOO! the only ninja track that i have ever bothered to 0 fault, isn't even on the list http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gif
Dost.
New Tracks:
Rock'n'Drop II Ninja by Murdoc Loch added to Level 1, with replays by Dosto707 and jhop420.
Lowercase by Murdoc Loch added to Level 3, with his own replay.
Lowercase is clearly a Level 3, but what do you guys think of Rock'n'Drop II Ninja? Level 1 seems right to me, but maybe Dosto just made it look easy. Eventually I'll try to play through both of these tracks to judge for myself. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
EDIT: Played Rock'n'Drop II Ninja, got about 50 faults on my first try. Definitely a Level 1.
EDIT 2: Played Lowercase. Definitely a Level 3. Made it to the 6th checkpoint on my first try and then ran out of time. On my second try I made it to the 7th checkpoint in under 10 minutes, and still took a total of 25 minutes to complete the track. Sick track Murdoc! http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gif
I see your point, but what it really comes down to is that the whole purpose of this thread is Ninja tracks, not necessarily grouping tracks together from the same creators. I understand that it's annoying to have to look in 3 places to collect all the Ninja tracks from the same creator, but consider the alternative: What if someone wanted to see all the Level 3 ninja tracks, but didn't care who created them? If they were sorted as you suggested, then you would have to look through dozens of creators to find all the tracks of a certain difficulty level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosto
It seems to me that people who are more interested in collecting all the tracks from a certain creator would also be interested in their other tracks - Medium, Hard, Extreme, etc. and not just the Ninja ones. As such they would be better off looking elsewhere for a complete list of tracks by any given creator. Of course it would be nice to have columns at the top to be able to sort by difficulty, creator, etc. but this is just a forum post, so advanced formatting and sorting like that just can't work.
Oh and btw, your idea with the http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_twisted.gif faces next to each track is a good one, but unfortunately the maximum number of faces allowed in one post is 8, so that wouldn't work.
Also, in case you didn't know, if you're looking for a specific track but don't know it's difficulty rating, just do a "Find" - press ctrl + F if you're in Windows or cmd + F if you're on a Mac, type the name of the track, and press enter. That should save you some time with or without separate difficulty ratings. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
And finally to reply to Murdoc again.
First of all, I'm really enjoying this discussion as well, so if I ever sound like a jerk don't take it personally - I can just be very opinionated sometimes. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
I definitely see your point about creating more difficult obstacles that utilize "basic" Trials skills in harder ways vs. creating totally unique obstacles. As an example I ran out of time the first several times I played Dusty Dawn by RedRider because I had no idea how to do the front tire bounce/back wheel, fender hook/front flip thing over the barrel. Does this make is a Level 3 track? Nope! Of course once I learned the proper strategy it was still really hard to pull it off, so the track still definitely qualifies as a Level 2. Some more notable examples are some of QcChoppers tracks - he has come up with many weird and unique obstacles that are hard to figure out, and many of them are still hard to overcome even once you know how, but the same rules apply - the amount of time spent figuring out a new type of obstacle shouldn't be a factor.
I try not to factor in the amount of time and faults I waste on learning new techniques and figuring out new strategies for strange obstacles that I haven't encountered before, because you're right - that shouldn't count towards the difficulty rating.
As far as your points about "uncomfortable" obstacles - I feel like a lot of Level 2 and Level 3 Ninja tracks have obstacles like this, whether they require you to use more traditional techniques with extreme precision or strange and new techniques of their own, these can both be uncomfortable.
And finally I completely agree with you on weird camera angles and obscured views of the rider. These types of things should not factor in to the difficulty of a track at all, and ideally shouldn't even exist...
/Malachyte
PS: To everyone else - Do you enjoy reading this back-and-forth between Murdoc and myself, or would you rather we stop cluttering up this thread and use PMs instead?
no, keep it going. if people dont want to see an intelligent discussion about ninja difficulty they can go somewhere else.
i have my own views on the subject so its interesting to see what others think.
Why don't you completely remove the level system and just organize the tracks in alphabetical order. Trials is a complex game and many players have different opinions about what in-game extreme track is the most difficult and I guarantee you it's the same with ninja tracks.
I think it would be much easier for you to take away this level system and simply call every ninja track a ninja track! Let each player decide for themselves what is harder than what. It works pretty well with beginner, easy, medium, hard, and extreme tracks.
Ninja Track = A track that is too hard to be classified as an extreme track.
As far as inconsistent obstacles and rubbish camera angles... These are just examples of poor track design and should not be considered tracks at all.
It's really not that simple. Of course all Ninja tracks are harder than Extreme tracks, but there's no cap on how difficult they can be since they are all user-made. I tried to make each "Level" as broad as the in-game difficulties - in other words, the difference between the easiest Medium track and the hardest Medium track should be roughly the same as the difference between the easiest Level 1 Ninja track and the hardest Level 1 Ninja track.Quote:
Originally Posted by KyoshiYozima
The difference in difficulty between a Level 1 Ninja track and a Level 3 Ninja track in theory would be the same as the difference between an in-game Medium track and an in-game Extreme track, and I think as the list is now, it's fairly accurate. Why let the Ninja level be so broad?
You say it works pretty well for players to judge for themselves within Beginner, Easy, Medium, Hard, and Extreme tracks, and it does! I certainly haven't tried to organize the Ninja tracks within each Level by their difficulty, and I think it's fine for players to determine on their own which Ninja Level 1 track is the hardest, etc. All that the Ninja Levels do really is just continue the existing pattern of the increasing difficulty ratings within the game.
Of course as I've said repeatedly now, if anyone disagrees on the current level rating of a track I'm open to feedback, and will happily move a track to a new Level if that's the consensus among riders that have played it.
The Level system helps people know ahead of time what they are getting themselves into, and furthermore it's fair to say that anyone who has 0-faulted a Level 3 track has far more bragging rights than the dozens of players who have 0-faulted Level 1 tracks, with Level 2 tracks somewhere in between of course.
I just don't like the idea of letting the Ninja difficulty be infinitely broader than any of the official difficulties. Variance within the same difficulty is to be expected, but (let's even take examples from the same creator) the difference in difficulty between Broken English and Bounce is for more significant than that between Brown Boxes and Diabolic. As such I believe they deserve different difficulty ratings!
It's not a two sided debate - speak up mate http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by WILLYUMZ
New Track:
False Pretenses by Murdoc Loch added to Level 2, with replays by himself and JJtheGerman.
Even after playing though it myself, I was really on the fence about this one - it's either a very hard Level 1 or an easy Level 2. What do you guys think? For the record, my first run through it I got about 250 faults and took about 15 minutes.
I also moved The Flip Side by jook13 from Level 1 to Level 2. I recently 0-faulted this track myself, and it took significantly longer than any other Level 1 track did; I would say it's pretty much on par with the difficulty of Superhuman by RedRider686 which I consider to be an easier Level 2 track. I know that people say Obstacle Cancer is harder, and I agree, but the spread between the tracks isn't enough to put them in different Levels. I would say that The Flip Side is an easier Level 2 while Obstacle Cancer is a harder Level 2.
I second that! I want to hear as many different opinions as possible on the subject. Speak up! http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
Thanks malachyteQuote:
Originally Posted by Malachyte
JJthegerman's False Pretenses run
I was aiming for an easier one but I guess it turned out harder then I could tell http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...e_confused.gif
Well as I said I was already torn between a Level 1 and a Level 2. It could be that I was just playing badly, but I did play Rock'n'Drop II Ninja only a few hours before and found that to be significantly easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdocLoch
Do you think that False Pretenses would be more accurately categorized as a difficult Level 1?
Malachyte - Thanks for adding me to the list, glad to see this thread continue as I want to add new additions. I think you have the levels set right. It's good you put Qc's mini ninjas in there, more people should try them out.
As for the treetop discussion http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_twisted.gif I figured I'd put my 2 cents in also. The thing I like about treetops is the obstacles break away from anything that's the norm. I found myself having to learn completely new techniques to get through them and I believe that's where the difficulty comes from and the same thing goes for Qc's mini ninja series. I think the obstacles were purposely designed to not be anything like stuff that has already been made. A track like AM - 2 has obstacles in it that you can use the skill and techniques learned from the in-game tracks to pass it, where as treetops doesn't. When I first wrote that I thought Treetops should be a level 4 I wasn't writing it because I was the only one that had it beat at the time, nor was I writing it because I timed out twice and had so many faults http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_redface.gif . The reason was that no matter how many hours I played the obstacles were still always consistently difficult. When I posted that vid I was getting to the 2nd to last checkpoint with 20-40 faults consistently, but even after I learned ways to get pass the obstacles they were still very very difficult.
Anyways even if no one else agrees with me I still think there should be a level 4 section, because I enjoy the challenge of tracks that aren't impossible to beat, but highly improbable to pass. Even if treetops gets removed I hope some of you skilled track creators make some new level 4's.
Thanks! And yea, Qc's mini-ninja tracks are awesome. They teach you moves that you really won't learn anywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherDextrous
This is very true, but in addition to having to learn these new techniques for Treetops, even once you learn them they are still very hard to pull off with any consistency. Treetops is literally the only track I've played where I actually timed out more than once just to finish it...Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherDextrous
I agree with you! Treetops should definitely be a Level 4, and it would be awesome if more tracks were created to fit in this Level as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherDextrous
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachyte
Right on, I find The flip Side to be much more difficult than Obstacle Cancer. I have 0 faults on Obstacle Cancer and 19 on Flip Side http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...s/icon_eek.gif
just to weigh in on the ninja 'debate';
firstly, i agree with most that has been said already in this topic. even though some of it slightly contradicts http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...e_confused.gif
secondly, i wont only address whats been said here but ideas/feelings across the forum on the subject... from memory, so dont quote me on stuff.
obviously the term 'ninja' is not official but by the time id joined this forum, people were using it to label tracks that were more difficult than extreme, which we'll assume is set roughly by redlynxs examples in game. but, as has been mentioned, the gap between extreme and impossible is HUGE. this, im guessing, is why the level system was implemented; 1-4.
now i get the feeling that some people, over time and in many topics, think that this 'ninja' business is overcomplicated, some saying theres no need for ninja at all (easy extreme, hard extreme..) and others saying there is no need for the different levels of ninja (shown in the leaderboard).
as for the term itself, i like it. i dont know how or why it came about but to me it sounds better that 'insane' or 'unreal' or 'extreme+' etc.
as for it overcomplicating things, i disagree. in fact i think the opposite. its well known on here, its widely used and we know that when someone labels their track as ninja, we're not expecting to play Easy Wheeling II. so im all in favor of calling tracks ninja if they make that significant jump in difficulty from extreme (significance that could be compared to the hard/extreme gap).
as for the different levels, yes and no. in general discussion about a new track someone made i dont see the need to added 'level ...' to the end of ninja everytime its mentioned. theres no point, take ninja to mean that its going to be a challenge and make your own mind up about how difficult it is. when simply discussing tracks the same way you would with any other difficulty, i think the word ninja is enough.
however, within this thread, that leaderboard and more in depth discussion and comparisons between ninja tracks, those levels are very useful. if ninja is to be taken as a difficulty from extreme and to... wherever, it covers a very wide range of difficulty (which may be hard to comprehend for people who really struggle with the level 1 ninjas because they cant make the comparisons). so in my opinion the levels are helpful but dont really need to be taken too far out of this thread.
at the end of the day, its malachyte whos taken this responsability and if the system works for him then its all good.
but.. there will then likely be problems with classification; which track goes where, this tracks harder than that track etc.. and its tricky because this will always be at least partly subjective depending on the rider. there is the added problem of judging 'difficulty' itself.
it comes down to so many things: faults vs time played, individual obstacle types, motivation to play/ finish/ 0-fault the track*, rider skill, track consistency and more. and so, my thoughts on simplifying the process of classifying the tracks is to simply put it to Malachytes opinion. he is experienced with ninjas of all difficulty, he is the one providing the 'service' and he can always take suggestions if somebody disagrees.
*back to this point, which i believe murdoc was on. one complication with the system is that 'motivation' determines how many people play the track and to what extent people will attempt to finish/ improve their runs on said track. some track creators have a higher prestige than others, for example people recently are struggling with a lack of feedback but as soon as murdoc releases a track, his thread gets posts immediately. thats not to say its unfair, these creators have built that reputation through quality and substance in their tracks and as such, there is a reason people follow them.
however it does mean that a more popular track could be misinterpreted as being easier than another track that is simply more obscure and played less. now treetops has been mentioned in this way and i fear that may be selling the track short. i havent played it enough to comment strongly (on my to-do list under am2) but it may be very well thought out and geniunely a notch above the likes of bounce and bloodclot if taken seriously enough.
but unfortunately there are tracks that pile on the difficulty fore the wrong reasons, being frustrating rather than creatively punishing. theres a line somewhere crossing difficulty and quality and its a fine one.
as for my general opinions on ninja tracks; i enjoy them. its a great feeling to struggle with a track before finally beating it. people say theyre frustrating but to me, the well-made ones at least, are not. they keep me determined and this isnt me claiming to be a ninja beast, i was literally 30 secs off an epic fail on am3 and i loved it.
sorry for the essay http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
WILLYUMZ - I loved your post, and agreed with pretty much everything in it. No need to apologize for the "essay", it was an interesting read!
As far as the point you and Murdoc have been making about judging tracks that get played more vs. ones that only a few people have played is totally relevant. That's why I make it a point to play every track that's in the leaderboard myself and judge it purely from my own experience rather than what other people have accomplished on it - because it's much more likely for a track to get 0-faulted if many players dedicate a lot of time to it compared to a track that only a couple of people have played a few times.
Malachyte- I have a sub 50sec run/vid for pure trials 1, but I never posted it cause jook beat me the very next day and I've been to lazy for a come back run. I was thinking of posting it, but I'm gonna wait until after willys contest to take another crack at it. I'm not even sure why I'm posting this, but it probably has something to do with foolish pride and alcohol.
C'mon Cypher, beat my score... http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image.../icon_razz.gif
I'd try now, but I'm quite a bit tipsy and I'd probably just fail horribly.
Ive pmed a moderator, to see if this thread could be pinned in the video section. Everyone owes it to themselves to watch all those epic runs on ninja tracks. Plus it would also boost the user content section a little.
edit- thanks sipe! ure the man.