-
The dreaded Object limit message!
hey all,
I thought i might make a handy post about the editors object count limits from what I have learnt since getting my hands on the editor. Nearly all my maps i cannot save if i add a single object, short plank of wood, a tiny arrow sign etc. This can also be a topic that people can add from their own experience that i might have missed.
Total Objects allowed - 1000, i read this somewhere on this forum but please confirm this.
Custom made objects: Stuff thats glued together to create something different looking or glued together for dynamic movement
These bad boys take up alot of memory depending on how many objects you glue together. It's not been validated yet but having a glued object opposed to just leaving it as it is with physics off might take up more memory (confirmed by sebbi)
Using as an example my stick men soldiers i made in OakVSPlywood are made up of 6 pieces for their bodies and 2 for the shield and the weapon. I had to delete a fair number of these so i could save the level. I recommend when adding fine details to your map out of custom made objects that you go ahead and think of the amount you want then add a few more so that when your in the later stages of finishing the last sections to your level you have a better idea on how much memory you have left. Big detail at the start, less at the end then you can average it out across the whole level when done.
Lights: These are worth around 8-12 small to medium sized objects each.
Effects: things like fire/water/steam are worth about half the amount of objects that a light takes up unless your going trigger happy on ocean of fires!
I use lights purely for atmosphere and nothing more, if your level is looking a little dark and you have run out of memory to add lights then use the ambient/sunlight sliders in track settings to make up for it.
Physics: The editor allows for quite alot of this, it will just affect your complexity slider in that specific area.
While it does consume your object memory you can use triggers to activate physics instead to use up less memory. Glass is an obsession for most and it is possible with this object to apply physics to it and it wont break apart on itself but when i was close to the object limit the editor let me save my level only when i turned it off on the glass and put a trigger in front of it. Also plan your levels around large and complex physics into sections over the length of your course.
If you plan on adding loads of background detail and closeup detail expect your level to be short possibly around 50-1.30 seconds to get to the end of it unless your like tomek or Qcchopper and have an exteme diffilculty badge on it.
I've had some great feedback on my FancyAPipeOlChum level and a interesting comment made suggesting that i had used more objects than the editor allowed. This isn't true if you want a long and detailed level you have to use large objects to make up the background detail like shipping crates for example and small details on the driving line and medium sized objects that dont obscure the games camera in the front. The dust slider isnt just a choking hazard either its there to create the illusion of depth, i managed to delete 30 objects in the background because i increased the dust slider so that the player could not see further than i wanted them too. Think of it as your fog of war.
Remember if the game camera cant see it (i.e the player) then delete the object because its taking up memory you could use elsewhere. Some bugs when saving, sometimes it will let you save the level then next time you open it in the editor and i dont know move an object somewhere else the message you have too many objects may pop up. Try deleting an object then adding it again and press save once more.
Hope this helps new map makers and the more ambitious ones=)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AkatsukiUK
Some bugs when saving, sometimes it will let you save the level then next time you open it in the editor and i dont know move an object somewhere else the message you have too many objects may pop up. Try deleting an object then adding it again and press save once more.
This is not a bug. The level is compressed first with our own compression algorithm and then with ZLIB compression before saving it. If the compressed level would take more than 8kB, the warning is given. Because of our compression algorithm, it's cheaper to use multiple objects of same type, use multiple objects with same orientation (rotation), or place objects in the same plane (snapped to riding line for example). Even a small object movement or rotation change can make the level a bit smaller and fit into the 8kB limit.
Additionally to the 8kB level size limit, there is a 1000 object hard limit. If you break it, the room complexity meter will show 100% used everywhere.
The 8kB limit is present because of the online sharing system (8kB slots), and the 1000 object limit is present because of the limited amount of Xbox system memory we reserve for the levels. We are preloading all game objects and textures at the game startup, and this takes a lot of Xbox system memory. This way we achieve absolutely no loading times at level startups. Splosion Man for example takes up to 20 seconds to load it's levels, and another 20 seconds to load the menus after each level. Zero loading times were really important for us, and worth a little bit of sacrifice in level maxium size limit. And we didn't want to make the levels overly long, because Trials HD is a arcade game. Instant action: fast startup, fast restarts, fast over the finish line.
I suggest making more shorter levels instead of one longer level if you are hitting the object limit. Too long levels often become frustrating, as faulting on the end of the level means a full restart at the beginning if you are aiming at zero fault run.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
So if this is the case then can I ask..... are all the levels that were created by the developers also 8kb or under in size or can we never get anywhere near what you guys made?
Does this also mean we will have to stick to sparse, unpopulated levels with just the driving line we want but sacrificing the backdrop/forground?
I have hit both limits when creating levels so far which can be frustrating to say the least but it's good of you to let us know what the limits are, but I still would like to know if your own levels are under 8kb http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...con_e_wink.gif
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
hehe yea splosion man takes forever to load and its a game you do press restart on over and over especially when playing it co-op. Thanks for adding that info sebbi=)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
I made a level last night with alot of rocks. I got the message saying too many objects. I went through deleting rocks and relocating others to cover gaps. I finally got it to save. I realized I had forgotten to change the difficulty to Medium and set the Medal times. That's the only thing I changed and when I went to save, I got the Object Limit message again.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuphoricFusion
So if this is the case then can I ask..... are all the levels that were created by the developers also 8kb or under in size or can we never get anywhere near what you guys made?
Yes, all our levels fit into the 8kB limit (except for 3 slightly larger ones). So basically you can make as detailed levels as we can. We have had no problems with the size limit, as our levels are designed to be max one minute long when driven flawlessly. According to our play testing results, this is the level length most players prefer. Not too short, but not too long either. Too long levels tend to be frustrating to zero fault.
It's important to note that gluing objects together takes space too. Glue does not increase the room complexity, but the file size will be bigger. So I recommend that you do not clue non-physical objects together just to group them. Making a group of objects with glue can double the amount of storage space required to save it. Use glue only for physics objects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeadhunter
I realized I had forgotten to change the difficulty to Medium and set the Medal times. That's the only thing I changed and when I went to save, I got the Object Limit message again.
Setting the medal time can increase the level size by a few bytes. Delete one object and the track should fit in the 8kB.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Thanks Sebbbi... just what I wanted to hear http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
I have to admit I would have felt a little hard done by if your levels had say twice the size as what we can make but if yours can fit into 8kb, then it fills me with confidence thats for sure.
*runs back to level editor*
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Great thread AK, I learned a lot from it and from sebbbi's answers. I will now go and unglue every rock in every cloud on my Fogged Up Night track and make the track longer http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Great info...thanks for putting it out there. I will also need to remove some of the glue on my maps...perhaps then I can have enough memory for more technical obstacles.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
I can't believe how much new stuff I was able to add to Fogged Up Night since I unglued my clouds, I did that in the first place to move them, it was hard placing them so it wouldn't be obvious they were rocks.... Now that I know this I'll be able to use the editor much more effectively.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Awesome, I've learned so much about making tracks since I linked up with everyone here. I think my obstacles have alway been very creative, but sometimes my maps get rediculously long/hard (especially Colosseum/Pitfall). Some players like the challenge but in the future I'm gonna try to shorten my tracks a bit and balance out the difficulty/funess... Now that I think about it, Frankenstein had a good length and the details/theme we're my best work. I need to make more track like that.
btw, I haven't tried your maps AkatsukiUK, I'll send you a friend request. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gif
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
thanks for that lovely looking bump lol (that needs to be the official bumping forum tool)
@ Skumbag who should hopefully find this thread after QC's directions. Yup things like adding objects and having them all at angles will take up more memory than if you just placed it as it is. You can also save some memory believe it or not i learnt by not 'deleting' too many wall blocks. This will also help with any lag issues you might have and free up a few shiny bytes.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
both adding blocks IN and OUT can save you from the limit i've found. im not sure if its the complexity of your background block layouts or what, but adding blocks has actually put me back under limit before. i usually play with medal times & bg blocks if im really in a pinch to get back under the limit at the end.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AkatsukiUK
thanks for that lovely looking bump lol (that needs to be the official bumping forum tool)
@ Skumbag who should hopefully find this thread after QC's directions. Yup things like adding objects and having them all at angles will take up more memory than if you just placed it as it is. You can also save some memory believe it or not i learnt by not 'deleting' too many wall blocks. This will also help with any lag issues you might have and free up a few shiny bytes.
LMAO, if the BUMP picture gets old, I also have this one:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...pper/bump2.jpg
Your thread helped me a lot, it gave me info on how I could improve some of my early tracks and give me a much better understanding of the editor so I could make a much better use of some items. i.e. while building a mountain of rocks, placing the exact same rock in the exact same angle over and over again makes it not count as much, quite like a compression method* and it can look good if the rocks are ovelapping each other to look like a single object.
* Here's how I see it:
3 objects of the same type, different angles:
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-positionX.positionY.positionZ
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-positionX.positionY.positionZ
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-positionX.positionY.positionZ
3 objects of the same type, same angle:
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-(positionX.positionY.positionZ)-(positionX.positionY.positionZ)-(positionX.positionY.positionZ)
Maybe I am speaking out of my exhaust here so if a dev could clear this up it would be nice.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AkatsukiUK
You can also save some memory believe it or not i learnt by not 'deleting' too many wall blocks. This will also help with any lag issues you might have and free up a few shiny bytes.
Yea I learned the that hard way.....Was making a template with an EMPTY room and a good chuck through it was checking something and saw it lagged BADLY! Only delete the room blocks you need to be deleted.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by QcChopper
3 objects of the same type, different angles:
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-positionX.positionY.positionZ
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-positionX.positionY.positionZ
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-positionX.positionY.positionZ
3 objects of the same type, same angle:
object45:angleX.angleY.angleZ-(positionX.positionY.positionZ)-(positionX.positionY.positionZ)-(positionX.positionY.positionZ)
Maybe I am speaking out of my exhaust here so if a dev could clear this up it would be nice.
The more similar the data is the better the packing algorithms work.
For example look at this simple method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_encoding
3 objects of the same type, different angles:
object45:angleX1.angleY1.angleZ1-positionX1.positionY1.positionZ1
object45:angleX2.angleY2.angleZ2-positionX2.positionY2.positionZ2
object45:angleX3.angleY3.angleZ3-positionX3.positionY3.positionZ3
3 objects of the same type, same angle:
object45:angleX1.angleY1.angleZ1-positionX1.positionY1.positionZ1
object45:angleX2.angleY2.angleZ2-positionX1.positionY1.positionZ1
object45:angleX3.angleY3.angleZ3-positionX1.positionY1.positionZ1
In the second example there is a lot of similar data and the packing algorithm can predict and pack the data well.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Thanks Jorma, any clue on how ten rocks at the same angle would weigh versus ten differently angled ones?
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebbbi
Quote:
Originally Posted by AkatsukiUK
The 8kB limit is present because of the online sharing system (8kB slots), and the 1000 object limit is present because of the limited amount of Xbox system memory we reserve for the levels. We are preloading all game objects and textures at the game startup, and this takes a lot of Xbox system memory. This way we achieve absolutely no loading times at level startups. Splosion Man for example takes up to 20 seconds to load it's levels, and another 20 seconds to load the menus after each level. Zero loading times were really important for us, and worth a little bit of sacrifice in level maxium size limit. And we didn't want to make the levels overly long, because Trials HD is a arcade game. Instant action: fast startup, fast restarts, fast over the finish line.
I suggest making more shorter levels instead of one longer level if you are hitting the object limit. Too long levels often become frustrating, as faulting on the end of the level means a full restart at the beginning if you are aiming at zero fault run.
How will this work whit the new dlc. are you still able to preload all the objeckts and texture, or will we see some loading time?
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
sorry to bring up an old thread, but this seemed like a nice place to put it.
while making my latest track, which has a seperate path for each bike, i was trying to add a checkpoint, and it wouldnt let me. is there a limit to the mumber of checkpoints you can have, or is this an early warning of the 8kb limit?
(i was probably around the 30 checkpoint mark, because i was at the end of my second route, and i've got two on every unfinished route)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper392
sorry to bring up an old thread, but this seemed like a nice place to put it.
while making my latest track, which has a seperate path for each bike, i was trying to add a checkpoint, and it wouldnt let me. is there a limit to the mumber of checkpoints you can have, or is this an early warning of the 8kb limit?
(i was probably around the 30 checkpoint mark, because i was at the end of my second route, and i've got two on every unfinished route)
This only happened to me once. I can 100% verify that its limited # of checkpoints (not sure on the # I'd have to count them) I had a really long track and barely any background so I was nowhere near the limit but couldn't place anymore checkpoints.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHh_tLyD5rQ
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
thanks for the info. i'd watch the vid and try to count them, but my laptop is auful, and its taking forever to load.
i think it might have just been the game playing up, because ive been and deleted a few checkpoints, then added a whole route for the micro donkey, and the problem hasnt popped up again (hopefully i'm not exactly on the limit)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
i can confirm that the checkpoint limit is 30, including the start and finish line, and damn annoying when you've essentially got 5 tracks in 1 (my 'seperating the bikes' track)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper392
i can confirm that the checkpoint limit is 30, including the start and finish line, and damn annoying when you've essentially got 5 tracks in 1 (my 'seperating the bikes' track)
Just means that you can't have 5 track lines, or give less checkpoints....?
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
The checkpoint limit for user tracks should be 32, including start and finish (nice round number http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gif ). This is over double what is used in the official tracks (max 15 checkpoints, including start and finish). Just make simpler and shorter tracks.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorma
The checkpoint limit for user tracks should be 32, including start and finish (nice round number
http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image..._e_biggrin.gif ). This is over double what is used in the official tracks (max 15 checkpoints, including start and finish). Just make simpler and shorter tracks.
when i made a track of just checkpoints it was 30, including start and finish.
however, i have just about managed to finish my track with almost no background, and 5 resonable paths (1 for each bike).
i'm just waiting for a little feedback from my friends for what checkpoints need to be jiggled around, then i'll announce it properly here
(not this thread, but this forum)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Ok, I have yet to do any serious track building, but lets see if I can summarize what you're telling me, because this seems pretty important:
Object Count Limit: You can place no more than 1000 individual physical items in a custom track. Every single plank, box, pipe, ramp, sign, scaffolding support, rock, bomb, etc you place on or off the driving line counts toward this limit. Some complex items (cars, lights, etc) count as more than one "object". Except for a graphical "room complexity" bar, there is no way to tell when you are getting closer to this limit. Once you reach 1000 objects, the "room complexity" shows as maxed out, and the editor will not allow you to place any more objects.
Is that correct? Isn't reaching this limit ridiculously easy??
Track Size Limit: In addition to the 1000 object limit, there is an 8kb track size limit. All physical elements of the track contribute to this limit, as does metadata like track medal times, room size, etc. Unfortunately, this limit isn't determined until you attempt to save a track, which may result in needing to remove an undetermined-number of items to be able to save your track. There are some tricks to keeping this size down, including placing multiple objects with the same orientation, and not gluing objects unnecessarily.
Sound right?
Which of these 2 limits is easier to hit?
Which of these does the "room complexity" bar measure? Are there other ways of knowing when you are close to a limit?
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaTrain
Ok, I have yet to do any serious track building, but lets see if I can summarize what you're telling me, because this seems pretty important:
Object Count Limit: You can place no more than 1000 individual physical items in a custom track. Every single plank, box, pipe, ramp, sign, scaffolding support, rock, bomb, etc you place on or off the driving line counts toward this limit. Some complex items (cars, lights, etc) count as more than one "object". Except for a graphical "room complexity" bar, there is no way to tell when you are getting closer to this limit. Once you reach 1000 objects, the "room complexity" shows as maxed out, and the editor will not allow you to place any more objects.
Is that correct? Isn't reaching this limit ridiculously easy??
Track Size Limit: In addition to the 1000 object limit, there is an 8kb track size limit. All physical elements of the track contribute to this limit, as does metadata like track medal times, room size, etc. Unfortunately, this limit isn't determined until you attempt to save a track, which may result in needing to remove an undetermined-number of items to be able to save your track. There are some tricks to keeping this size down, including placing multiple objects with the same orientation, and not gluing objects unnecessarily.
Sound right?
Which of these 2 limits is easier to hit?
Which of these does the "room complexity" bar measure? Are there other ways of knowing when you are close to a limit?
Its easier to hit the 8kb limit first. Out of my 20 tracks, I hit the 8kb 95% of the time. Once I hit the 1000 limit and I was severely confused what was going on.
Car DLC = 10 objects says Jorma.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
you are correct megatrain. If the room complexity shows as 'maxed out' across all sections of your level then you have hit the limit. As far as i know there are a few objects that the editor compresses better like the shipping containers as they have a simple collision box. Also a good indication that you are close to the object limit is if you add a checkpoint and then try to move it, if it starts to move pretty slow then you know you maybe have 2kb left. Dont worry too much about the limit though, my best advice is to just make a few tracks and you will get a feel for when your close to the end. Make enough and you will obtain the object limit seventh sense =D
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AkatsukiUK
you are correct megatrain. If the room complexity shows as 'maxed out' across all sections of your level then you have hit the limit. As far as i know there are a few objects that the editor compresses better like the shipping containers as they have a simple collision box. Also a good indication that you are close to the object limit is if you add a checkpoint and then try to move it, if it starts to move pretty slow then you know you maybe have 2kb left. Dont worry too much about the limit though, my best advice is to just make a few tracks and you will get a feel for when your close to the end. Make enough and you will obtain the object limit seventh sense =D
lol, what's the sixth sense then?
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
trials sixth sense = copy a object and align it perfectly in one fluid motion without zooming in and lining it up for the next 5 mins http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...con_e_wink.gif
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
I'm not a huge user of the internets but I wish I would have come to this site months ago. I always run out of space as most of my tracks are in huge rooms with complex items glued together. Thanks for the tips!
Question: For big rooms does removing blocks from the room increase the object limit if if the blocks are not seen by the camera? (hope that makes sense)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach3000
Question: For big rooms does removing blocks from the room increase the object limit if if the blocks are not seen by the camera? (hope that makes sense)
The room blocks don't have an effect on the object limit, but it will take up space for the file size limit of your track (8kb). If your room is more complex then it will take more data to save the track. So a big rectangular room would take up the least amount of space and a checkerboard room pattern would take up the most amount of space.
Here's a tutorial I made that explains everything pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXcmMdVv_zU (read the video description too)
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Hey, thanks for that IW. I really liked how you added big clunky logs on you Crazy Horse track and used a similar style to my ramps on Saw Mill. Saw Mill is super short though, I think because I glued a lot of the ramps and the house together. Not to mention all the logs on the ground and water are at different angles. My next track I'll try to have things oriented the same way and see if I get more room.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
I played Sawmill and its pretty good. I also noticed some stuff that looked very familiar. I know you're not intentionally trying to copy me, you're just inspired by my tracks, but go easy on the 'inspiration'... still though you kinda made it your own, so its all good. http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/image...on_e_smile.gif
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
^^^I hear you. I think the borrowing "inspiration" is out of my system now. I like the beginning of Sawmill but once it gets to the ramps in the middle I feel you pull it off so much better that I should just stick to doing what I do best. It's funny as soon as I saw Time Machine I thought, "Dammit, IW is going to think I ripped him off again!" as there's similarities to your track and the one I just finished, The Core, with the metal plates, blue lighting and round ventilation shaft bits. 99% of that stuff I made before seeing Time Machine though.
To get back on topic: I was AMAZED how much longer my new track was by simply orienting objects the same way and not gluing all my big pieces together. It took me forever to make that track because I just felt the "object limit message" should have come a lot sooner. But it didn't and I had to think of a new ending.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Its no big deal. I'm just not used to people using my ideas. Your the first, as far as I know, lol... The Core is a very different track than Time Machine and I really like it. And I don't think I'm the first one to use blue lighting with reflective metal anyways.
I saw your track featured in the new Redlynx episode, congrats! It was well deserved. That track really does have alot of replayability with all the different routes.
And if you don't mind me asking, how did it get featured? Did Redlynx contact you or did you have to submit it or something?
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
Now, that I know how to make my tracks bigger I'm going place the initials "IW" in Sawmill somewhere.
Thanks, re: the new Redlynx tv episode. I was contacted. I actually mentioned at the time that you and Andy BMX Bandit were 2 creators that I thought were doing really innovative stuff. They do a really slick job with RLTV so I was happy to do it. I'll send you a PM on Xbox.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
This thread gets a bump for now, but a sticky would be even nicer, lots of useful info in here.
-
Re: The dreaded Object limit message!
I usually make shorter maps but for the contest i made a long one and constantly got this message and i agree with all the guides and if you really have to i would suggest getting rid of obstacles that aren't fun or are really complex, that'll definitely help the item count.