So, as long as we are normalizing Raider's hyper armor, what about Berserker?
If there is no plan to remove any of zerk's armor, can we at least see his heavy attack armor get set back to feint timing as well?
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So, as long as we are normalizing Raider's hyper armor, what about Berserker?
If there is no plan to remove any of zerk's armor, can we at least see his heavy attack armor get set back to feint timing as well?
I'm pretty sure berserker hyper armor works exactly as its intended. Chain heavies on feint timing, lights and feint into light/heavy = instant.
Quick stroll over to the information hub shows that Zerk gets hyper armor at 100ms for any attack after the first attack in the chain till the chain finishes.
Attacks that he puts after a feint also gain armor 100ms into it. So it's definitely not "standard" armor placement. And that wasn't the standard anyway with other heros. The devs are making HA not come out till after the feint window a new thing because people over complain about armor.
I have already discussed to death why the armor values on TG don't work for raider and why it's worked for Warlord and hito/Goki. But let me bring up other examples. Gryphon's armor comes out 500ms into his 800ms heavy. Which makes it not good at trading at all and why competitively speaking no one thinks his HA is good. The one saving grace he has compared to Raider though is any attack he does after a parry has instant HA. So when he's being ganked he at least has the ability to some what anti gank.
Highlander has armor in a few places. On his 1000ms heavy openers he gets HA 500ms into his just like gryphon's but with even slower heavies. Obviously not viable. His keltic curse is a 900ms heavy without soft feint, 700ms with left 600ms with right soft feints. HA works consistently on all of those though because he gets armor 200ms into keltic curse itself and 100ms into his soft feints. insuring that the mix up can't be stuffed. And we get to his chained heavy finisher which has HA 300ms into it. Same value as TG raider, warlord, hito, and goki. However his heavy finisher is 600ms.
So after seeing some more examples we can see that forcing HA to come out later doesn't really work unless you have some extra sauce going for you or if you have fast heavies. However there exists one example of a hero in the game that has HA that comes out late and it actually trades with people who try to dodge attack incorrectly. (though admittingly it's not consistent with all dodge attacks due to dodge attacks themselves having different variables.
This would be Tiandi. Specifically i'm talking about if Tiandi tries to do palm strike and you dodge attack it. The heavy is from his forward dragon dodge attack. Which is 800ms. The armor comes out 500ms into the attack. So why does this work after palm strike? I assume it has to be tied to recovery time+ link time. If we assume he chains into his heavy from palm 100ms after palm finishes and palms recovery is cut short by chaining into it that means he could (in theory) have 500ms pass by the time a dodge attack would land. Thus trading. However I did mention some dodge attacks beat this. Off the top of my head I know shaman's does. But that's because she can dodge attack 200ms into her dodge and the attack itself is 533ms. Essentially that means she's already dodging through your recovery if she dodges early enough and inputs her attack pretty soon after.
So to recap. If armor is going to be adjusted for any character it cannot simply be standardized to the feint window. It has to account for more details.
If you have 800ms chain heavies or heavy finishers that HA needs to come out a bit sooner than the feint window in order for it to realistically trade. OR you can have some level of mix up going that leads to armored options like in the case of Kensei and Highlander. The openers themselves are reactable but you can't stuff them out of it thanks to their soft feints getting early HA.
The only examples we have of HA working on feint window is either someone who has access to 700ms chained heavies, someone who has insane recovery values and link in time, or your heavy is a chargable heavy/bash.
Raider has soft feints but neither of his soft feints have armor. So he cannot reliably trade when he should be able to in team fights with HA being late.
Berzerker does have 700ms chain side heavies. So in theory he should be able to have his HA for his chained side heavies be moved back to the feint window. But his top heavy finisher is 900ms and his side heavy finisher is 800ms. So moving those moves armor back to feint window would make them non viable for trading in a team fight/anti gank.
In a single pick situation you can argue moving his finishers back would be "okay" if you account for the fact that feinted into moves gain HA 100ms into them. Meaning someone trying to parry on a wrong timing or trying to stuff zerk (which lmao why,) would still result in zerk trading in his control. But since we have to account for 4's as well I still wouldn't suggest that as his unblockables despite having very terrible reach and hitboxes are his only threat to someone externally and if he couldn't trade into someone trying to stop him externally he'd basically be left out in the cold.
Not to mention Zerk already suffers with stamina problems so asking him to be non committal even more is really rough.
TLDR: Zerk could have his chain side heavy and ONLY his chain side heavy's armor be moved to feint window and would still mostly be fine. But all other HA has to remain as is. Or zerk would need to become a far different character.
No. All HA is instant for zerk and that's a problem.
The armor on (TG) Raider still works to trade with, so I don't fully understand the notion of Raider's armor now being too slow. I can still get caught if I make a late interupt attempt and eat the heavy, and when I played as Raider, I could still trade.
I would not be opposed to Raider getting other things either buffed a little or something new added to the kit, as long as armor stays the way it is. The only problematic hyper armor I can think of that's left is Berserker. Set his armor timing back and he will likely be much less frustrating to fight against. It means less favorable trades for Zerk and more brain is required to play as him. Right now, Zerk is easy mode.
I remember Raime trying to explain to me how bad Zerk is, so I played as Zerk against Raime one time and I just showed him all the stuff I said was cheap and he couldn't do anything to stop me. I won that duel with little to no effort while other duels Raime and I had were more back and forth than that. Zerk is just a cheap hero. Not necessarily great, just cheap. I'd rather have him be stronger at the same time as being less dependent on HA.
I do find it confusing when I can prove a point directly to the person arguing the other side, and have them still stick to their original arguement. To be fair though, it's pretty easy to confuse me LOL.
I personally don't think it's a problem. Especially since it's the entire point of his kit, and he's already not an S tier character. Or A tier either. High B tier.
You could just normalize the entire game to be honest. Remove all characters except warden, remove all maps except sanctuary bridge. Ez fix
Zerk needs armor to be nerfed like Raider and then given something new or something buffed.
The way his armor currently works is just awful to fight against. Not fun by any means trying to find the one heavy that isn't feinted or catching one of those light attacks, and the fact that you can't interupt anything is just dumb. People say trades aren't worth because compared to others, zerk has lower damage, but that isn't where the strength lies. The strength of his armor is stopping the opponent's chains and carrying on with their own onslaught of armor. Hell, nerf the armor, then buff the damage. Hooray!
Man HP is the only thing againish the spamms. 90% of players won just pressing the light atack.