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NEW UPDATE APRIL 26th
I've noticed that LOTS of people both on this forum and on the subsim-forum are complaining about the chronometer isn't working to find out the speed of the target.
I agree that it would be a help if you don't have your own stopwatch, but what I think is weird is that people call the lack of an automatical speed finder "unrealistic"!..?
I don't think the chronometer was supposed to work like it did in SH3, or described in the manual which is basically just copied from the SH3-manual (shame on the manual-writer for this by the way). I think the chronometer is only supposed to be used as an in-game stopwatch and clock. The "speed determination-magic" that happened in SH3 was always the least realistic part of the TDC. Distance measurement with mast height is believable. AOB has always been manual, which is realistic. Speed should not be automatically solved by aiming your periscope at a target for 10 seconds.
When I first tried the game, I was too a bit frustrated because speed determination was suddenly "not working". I was used to the stopwatch-magic in SH3 and expected the same here. After playing a lot and thinking about it, I figured out several points about speed determination that's helped me.
1: Most convoys and taskforces are reported with speed. If you pay attention to radio messages, you don't have to measure speed at all.
2: When you identify a ship, it has a maximum speed listed... It will never go faster than this.
3: If you don't know the speed of a convoy, it will NEVER go faster than the maximum speed of the slowest ship in the convoy.
4: No ship can cross the pacific on "flank" speed. If you need a quick speed estimate: half speed of listed max-speed (as was explained in the excellent TDC-video on subsim).
5: You can "match speed" with your target by running side by side for a while to see how fast he's running (when your relative position is stable, you have the same speed as him)
6: If you run with map contact updates, you can set a mark on the ship on the map. Wait for a while (and take the time ofcourse) and set another mark. Measure the distance, some simple math and you have the target's speed. Also, if you click on the contact on the map it will say "slow", "medium", "fast" or "very fast" speed. Slow is roughly 7 knots, medium is roughly 10-12 knots, fast is above 15 knots and very fast is... very fast (and very difficult to hit as it's usually a destroyer charging you at 30-35 knots... or a plane)
7: If you don't run with map contact updates, you have lots of drawing tools to mark your target. When you have bearing and range, use the protractor to find the angle and the compass to find the range. Wait for a while (longer is better and more accurate) and do it again. Measure the distance between your two marks and you should have speed.
8: THIS IS HOW I DO IT NOW: Use a handheld stopwatch, and the length table below (or your paper version of the recognition manual, if you have it).I set the crosshair of my TBT or Periscope ahead of the boat and start the stopwatch exactly when the bow passes through my sights. You must NOT use target lock ("L" key), and your sub must be stationary or near stationary. I stop the watch exactly when the stern passes through. Next, I take the length of the ship (listed in the recog.manual) and divide by the number of seconds it took to pass through my sights. This gives me the target speed in meters/second, which can easily be multiplied by 2 to find speed in knots (actually 1.94, but 2 is close enough). Example: The Yamato (263 meters long) passes through my sights in 30 seconds. 263meters/30seconds = 8.8 m/s. Multiplied with 2 we get 17.6 knots... Good enough for Navy use. This technique works at almost any AOB and any distance as the time to run one boatlength is the only thing measured and is the same no matter where you see it from. But remember to stop your sub for this.
9: VERY IMPORTANT: get CLOSE to your target. I always try to get within half a nautical mile (about 900 meters) before engaging. First of all, this makes ship recognition much easier. Secondly, it takes the pressure off the target solution. If you miss by a knot two or have a somewhat faulty AOB or range, you will still hit your target at this distance. Engagements at several nautical miles are VERY difficult, and an easy way to spend all your torpedoes on a single tugboat.
Finally, the long-awaited "Length list": Enjoy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
SHIP LENGTH
NAVAL VESSELS
Battleships
- Yamato class - 263.2 m
- Fuso class - 212.6 m
- Kongo class - 225 m
- Ise class - 205.5 m
- Ise class (late-war conversion) - 220 m
Aircraft Carriers
- Taiho class - 253.7 m
- Shokaku class - 250 m
- Taiyo class - 180.1 m
- Hiryu class - 223.3 m
- Akitsu class - 143.8 m
Heavy Cruisers
- Takao class - 204.5 m
- Maya class - 204.5 m
- Mogami class - 200 m
- Furutaka class - 188 m
Light Cruisers
- Agano class - 174.5 m
- Naka class - 163 m
- Kuma class - 163 m
Destroyers
- Akizuki class - 134 m
- Fubuki class - 118.5 m
- Asashio class - 118.5 m
- Shiratsuyu class - 108 m
- Mutsuki class - 102.4 m
- Minekaze class - 102.5 m
Other Naval Vessels
- Large Minelayer - 123.4 m
- Minesweeper - 72.1 m
- Medium Gun Boat - 56 m
- Small Gun Boat - 45.3 m
- Subchaser - 72.1 m
MERCHANT VESSELS
Passenger Liners
- Huge European Liner - 173.7 m
- Large Old Passenger Carrier - 137.4 m
- Modern Passenger Liner - 130.1 m
- Small Passenger Carrier - 79.2 m
Tankers
- Large Modern Tanker - 159.7 m
- Medium Old Tanker - 113.1 m
- Small Old Tanker - 76.2 m
Freighters
- Large Modern Composite Freighter - 143.2 m
- Large Old Split Freighter - 135.6 m
- Medium European Composite Freighter - 121.9 m
- Medium Modern Composite Freighter - 103.6 m
- Medium Modern Split Freighter - 101.2 m
- Medium Old Composite Freighter - 108.8 m
- Medium Old Split Freighter - 121.9 m
- Small Modern Composite Freighter - 80.7 m
- Small Old Split Freighter - 86.8 m
Y
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NEW UPDATE APRIL 26th
I've noticed that LOTS of people both on this forum and on the subsim-forum are complaining about the chronometer isn't working to find out the speed of the target.
I agree that it would be a help if you don't have your own stopwatch, but what I think is weird is that people call the lack of an automatical speed finder "unrealistic"!..?
I don't think the chronometer was supposed to work like it did in SH3, or described in the manual which is basically just copied from the SH3-manual (shame on the manual-writer for this by the way). I think the chronometer is only supposed to be used as an in-game stopwatch and clock. The "speed determination-magic" that happened in SH3 was always the least realistic part of the TDC. Distance measurement with mast height is believable. AOB has always been manual, which is realistic. Speed should not be automatically solved by aiming your periscope at a target for 10 seconds.
When I first tried the game, I was too a bit frustrated because speed determination was suddenly "not working". I was used to the stopwatch-magic in SH3 and expected the same here. After playing a lot and thinking about it, I figured out several points about speed determination that's helped me.
1: Most convoys and taskforces are reported with speed. If you pay attention to radio messages, you don't have to measure speed at all.
2: When you identify a ship, it has a maximum speed listed... It will never go faster than this.
3: If you don't know the speed of a convoy, it will NEVER go faster than the maximum speed of the slowest ship in the convoy.
4: No ship can cross the pacific on "flank" speed. If you need a quick speed estimate: half speed of listed max-speed (as was explained in the excellent TDC-video on subsim).
5: You can "match speed" with your target by running side by side for a while to see how fast he's running (when your relative position is stable, you have the same speed as him)
6: If you run with map contact updates, you can set a mark on the ship on the map. Wait for a while (and take the time ofcourse) and set another mark. Measure the distance, some simple math and you have the target's speed. Also, if you click on the contact on the map it will say "slow", "medium", "fast" or "very fast" speed. Slow is roughly 7 knots, medium is roughly 10-12 knots, fast is above 15 knots and very fast is... very fast (and very difficult to hit as it's usually a destroyer charging you at 30-35 knots... or a plane)
7: If you don't run with map contact updates, you have lots of drawing tools to mark your target. When you have bearing and range, use the protractor to find the angle and the compass to find the range. Wait for a while (longer is better and more accurate) and do it again. Measure the distance between your two marks and you should have speed.
8: THIS IS HOW I DO IT NOW: Use a handheld stopwatch, and the length table below (or your paper version of the recognition manual, if you have it).I set the crosshair of my TBT or Periscope ahead of the boat and start the stopwatch exactly when the bow passes through my sights. You must NOT use target lock ("L" key), and your sub must be stationary or near stationary. I stop the watch exactly when the stern passes through. Next, I take the length of the ship (listed in the recog.manual) and divide by the number of seconds it took to pass through my sights. This gives me the target speed in meters/second, which can easily be multiplied by 2 to find speed in knots (actually 1.94, but 2 is close enough). Example: The Yamato (263 meters long) passes through my sights in 30 seconds. 263meters/30seconds = 8.8 m/s. Multiplied with 2 we get 17.6 knots... Good enough for Navy use. This technique works at almost any AOB and any distance as the time to run one boatlength is the only thing measured and is the same no matter where you see it from. But remember to stop your sub for this.
9: VERY IMPORTANT: get CLOSE to your target. I always try to get within half a nautical mile (about 900 meters) before engaging. First of all, this makes ship recognition much easier. Secondly, it takes the pressure off the target solution. If you miss by a knot two or have a somewhat faulty AOB or range, you will still hit your target at this distance. Engagements at several nautical miles are VERY difficult, and an easy way to spend all your torpedoes on a single tugboat.
Finally, the long-awaited "Length list": Enjoy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
SHIP LENGTH
NAVAL VESSELS
Battleships
- Yamato class - 263.2 m
- Fuso class - 212.6 m
- Kongo class - 225 m
- Ise class - 205.5 m
- Ise class (late-war conversion) - 220 m
Aircraft Carriers
- Taiho class - 253.7 m
- Shokaku class - 250 m
- Taiyo class - 180.1 m
- Hiryu class - 223.3 m
- Akitsu class - 143.8 m
Heavy Cruisers
- Takao class - 204.5 m
- Maya class - 204.5 m
- Mogami class - 200 m
- Furutaka class - 188 m
Light Cruisers
- Agano class - 174.5 m
- Naka class - 163 m
- Kuma class - 163 m
Destroyers
- Akizuki class - 134 m
- Fubuki class - 118.5 m
- Asashio class - 118.5 m
- Shiratsuyu class - 108 m
- Mutsuki class - 102.4 m
- Minekaze class - 102.5 m
Other Naval Vessels
- Large Minelayer - 123.4 m
- Minesweeper - 72.1 m
- Medium Gun Boat - 56 m
- Small Gun Boat - 45.3 m
- Subchaser - 72.1 m
MERCHANT VESSELS
Passenger Liners
- Huge European Liner - 173.7 m
- Large Old Passenger Carrier - 137.4 m
- Modern Passenger Liner - 130.1 m
- Small Passenger Carrier - 79.2 m
Tankers
- Large Modern Tanker - 159.7 m
- Medium Old Tanker - 113.1 m
- Small Old Tanker - 76.2 m
Freighters
- Large Modern Composite Freighter - 143.2 m
- Large Old Split Freighter - 135.6 m
- Medium European Composite Freighter - 121.9 m
- Medium Modern Composite Freighter - 103.6 m
- Medium Modern Split Freighter - 101.2 m
- Medium Old Composite Freighter - 108.8 m
- Medium Old Split Freighter - 121.9 m
- Small Modern Composite Freighter - 80.7 m
- Small Old Split Freighter - 86.8 m
Y
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Thanks alot Yngvef! You explained this way of estimating speed to me before (other post)
And it works great! Use it every time!
Its very easy and very fast to do.
But I dont own a recognition manual.
All I got is the ingame recongnition manual.
Do I have a problem?, No I dont!
So how do I obtain the ships lengt you might wonder?
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/103/sh4yamatoli8.jpg
See the black & white scale line under the Yamato picture? You can find this under each and every ship in the ingame recongnition manual.
Every black or white segment is about 33 meters (or about 90 foot)
I can count 6 steps in the scale line under the Yamato Battleship and about 2 more steps I can add to get the full ship lengt.
33 * 8 = 264 meters
In Yngvef his example, The Yamato (263 meters long) info from his printed recongnition manual.
I'm off by 1 meter in lengt.
I've tested this on alot of ships and I've not missed a ship yet.
If the Chronometer is broken or not implanted yet, I don't know. I have no need for one with this kind of knowledge.
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I can't understand why anyone would enable manual targeting and map updates at the same time. If you're going for more realistic settings, the God Mode map updates are at the very top of the list of things to disable.
At least automatic targeting could be said to simulate having a very sharp-eyed weapons officer at your side. Map updates is just a cheat.
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Thanks luviera, I remember explaining this to you before in another thread. I just decided that I should try to share the method with more people because I saw several people complaining about not being able to determine target speed.
Also, thanks for providing the example on how to find the length of the ships with the in-game recognition manual. With this, I probably won't have to write the length of all the ships in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
It's great to hear it works for you too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
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Thanks for the info Yngvef!
I have a question about #6 and #7: I've tried these methods but the measuring tool always lists in nm and not yards or meters. And since it rounds of to the nearest tenth of nm then you can get inaccurate measurmets. Is there a mod to convert the measuring tool to do yards or meters?
#8 seems like a good method but you need to be close to 90 degress to your target to get an accurate speed.
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Jroland: You have described the main problem with method #6 and #7.
They are usable, but more difficult than method #8.
Either you can watch the number when you're measuring and roughly estimate the distance. Example: When you draw a line with the ruler and it increases from 0.5 to 0.6, you know the distance is 0.600 just when the number changes. If the target is roughly halfway between, you can estimate 0.55 and so on. This problem is why I have abandoned this technique with visual contacts.
Another trick: it works quite well with radar contacts that you can track for maybe 30-60 minutes. This makes the ".1 mile/kilometer" inaccuracy with the ruler very insignificant. Radar track and measurement over as long as an hour is quite boring, but also extremely accurate.
Also, there might be some mods that show short distances as yards or meters... At least, there should be made such a mod by someone skilled enough to make it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
Regarding #8: You don't need to be at 90 degrees AOB for it to work. It works by checking the time it takes for the ship to do ONE shiplength. The stern will pass over the exact same point as the bow, and the time difference gives you the speed. Just try it, and you'll see it works. I usually do my speed check at roughly 45 degrees AOB as it gives me enough time to calculate the simple calculations before the target is at 80 degrees AOB (my favorite firing position)
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by yngvef:
Regarding #8: You don't need to be at 90 degrees AOB for it to work. It works by checking the time it takes for the ship to do ONE shiplength. The stern will pass over the exact same point as the bow, and the time difference gives you the speed. Just try it, and you'll see it works. I usually do my speed check at roughly 45 degrees AOB as it gives me enough time to calculate the simple calculations before the target is at 80 degrees AOB (my favorite firing position) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, you're correct. For some reason I thought that at extreme angles it would take longer for the ship to pass through the rectical. Really it takes the same amount of time no matter what angle you're at. The only real problem seems that at extreme angles it would be hard to determine exactly where the stern is. But, I suppose it's close enough at that point.
This makes me wonder why they don't compute distance based on the length of the ship. It seems a lot more accurate than using the height! I guess because you would need to be 90 degrees to target to get the accurate length.
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Yep, that's correct. If you wanted to measure distance with ship length, you would have to see it at exactly 90 degrees, which is why we use height for that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
Hope this thread helps some people http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common...icon_smile.gif
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Thanks for posting this...very useful for many people.
I too have wondered how people that play on full realism demand the watch give them speed measurements. This was definitely the most unrealistic aspect of SHIII targeting. I think you are right that this isn't a bug with SHIV so much as a deliberate way of using teh stopwatch, but because the section of the manual was copied wholesale from SHIII about torpedoe shooting, the part about using the watch for speed calcs is still there (as is the part about hitting the "x on the notepad" to remove all measures taken http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif )
I play with RFB, with map updates OFF, but the good thing is you can always use the "nearest visual contact" key when surfaced. Your crew will call out the bearing and range of the nearest contact, which makes using method #7 rather easy.
BTW, it is always a little funny to me also that RFB uses map updates by default.