And this is interesting.
Means that lootboxes will have to be regulated.
There will be a lot of things moving in the next months, especially in the free-to-play mobile games and lootboxes dependant games...
And this is interesting.
Means that lootboxes will have to be regulated.
There will be a lot of things moving in the next months, especially in the free-to-play mobile games and lootboxes dependant games...
And not just in Belgium....
LINKQuote:
Hawaii Wants To Fight The "Predatory Behavior" Of Loot Boxes
Here’s Rep. Chris Lee (D) from Hawaii standing in front of a camera and making an announcement about steps being taken to combat the “predatory behavior” of video game publishers, with particular emphasis given to Electronic Arts and its inclusion of loot boxes within Battlefront II.
And I mean particular emphasis: the video is titled “EA predatory behavior announcement”, and Lee specifically calls out Battlefront II, labelling it a “Star Wars-themed online casino, designed to lure kids into spending money”.
“It’s a trap”.
People are more powerful than they think. While we are stepping up to act in Hawaii, we have also been in discussions with our counterparts in a number of other states who are also considering how to address this issue. Change is difficult at the federal level, but states can and are taking action.
Even so, elected officials can’t do it alone. They need your support and you can compel action wherever you live by calling and emailing your own state legislators and asking them to act. But don’t stop there. Call your allies. Call your pastors and teachers and community leaders. Ask them to call your state legislators as well. Their voices are politically powerful.
I believe this fight can be won because all the key bases of political support across the country are on the same side. The religious community, the medical community, the education community, consumer advocates, parents, even many business leaders and local chambers of commerce. This is a fight that unites everyone, even the most polarized conservatives and progressives. Doing something is a political win for Democrats and Republicans alike. And frankly, we don’t need to change the laws in every state - we just need to change a few and it will be enough to draw the line and compel change.
These kinds of lootboxes and microtransactions are explicitly designed to prey upon and exploit human psychology in the same way casino games are so designed. This is especially true for young adults who child psychologists and other experts explain are particularly vulnerable. These exploitive mechanisms and the deceptive marketing promoting them have no place in games being marketed to minors, and perhaps no place in games at all.
Your future is whatever you make it, so make it a good one. You have the power to get involved and decide this and the choice is clear: stand up now, or let this be the new normal from this point forward.One state introducing measures to combat loot boxes—seen by many, and an increasing number of official bodies, as a form of gambling—wouldn’t make too big of a difference in the global scheme of things, but if “a number of other states” from the US were to possibly join forces, as Lee is suggesting, that would be a different story.
Lee’s proposal would see legislation introduced in Hawaii that would prohibit the sale of games featuring loot boxes to minors, and believes “these issues should be addressed before this becomes the norm for every game”. He also mentions “prohibiting different kinds of mechanisms” within games.
“We didn’t allow Joe Camel to encourage our kids to smoke cigarettes”, State representative Sean Quinlan adds, “and we shouldn’t allow Star Wars to encourage our kids to gamble.”
It’s worth remembering that this is simply a preliminary announcement. But it’s still a sign that after all the protests over the game’s payment and progression systems amongst its target audience, there may be genuine cause for action at a legislative level as well.
Though, in TD, you can earn keys in-game. You don't have spend a single dime on encrypted caches.
True and you don't have to spend a dime unless you want to. So far it is not a play to win game. Even though I currently refuse to give Ubi/Massive another dime. I have seen things that make me say," Hey that looks cool. Wish they had that in the premium vendor without having to buy a stupid cache and hope to get it." Then I remember the too many of suggestions was put on the ignore lists and was told by CMs in this forum that, "If we don't like it, this may not be the game for you." Reminded me that my money wasn't for them either.
I have no issue with lootboxes in TD. Skins and emotes add nothing to this game for me. If I ever emote, it is always a clap, as it is classic. What boithers me is that they added another form of currency, which really temps people to spend real money. You should be able to convert $10 million in game to buy a cypher key.
It can be easily denied. Slot machines in a casino do not give you a penny in return for your failed attempt, and you may never get anything in return at all. Matter of fact, it really boggles my mind that people don't see the difference. Or at the very least, choose to forfeit reason and logic in favor if pushing their narrative.
gambling
1.play games of chance for money; bet:
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
•bet (a sum of money) on a game of chance:
"he was gambling every penny he had on the spin of a wheel"
2.take risky action in the hope of a desired result:
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
The bold writing sounds just like using real money for buying a cache.
If you want to play with semantics and definitions of gambling, cool. But that has nothing to do with what I posted. I responded to a post that equates gambling in slot machines to buying caches in a video game, an equation that's erroneous. Sure, both involve "chance", but that's it.
See the difference there? Or does it still not register?
The day you buy a loot cache in a video game with real money, and upon opening the loot cache, you get absolutely nothing, forgoing all the money you spent on the cache, that's the day you may begin drawing comparisons between playing slot machines and buying caches in a video game.
I didn't explain myself well perhaps, I meant that there is nothing concrete in the true sense of the word, you open the lootboxes and basically there is nothing you can touch with your hand, even if it is something you were looking for.
It seems to me that the comparison with gambling games is legitimate, I'm not inventing it, I don't see big differences, you have to spend money trying luck, even the interface of opening the boxes reminds a slot machine in the division.
And don't get angry, I can't be too rude, I'm not native English speakers...;)
I think the lootbox thing has raised it's head again because of the new star wars battlefront game, haven't played it but from the vids I've seen on youtube there's something seriously wrong with their system and availability of boxes like a p2w and the gambling/addict aspect to keep buying .
I think your mistaken, I spent real money to buy premium credits so that i could buy cypher keys. When i bought my cache i got all duplicates numerous times and only received key fragments back(not a whole cypher key) and once didn't get anything back at all. Sounds exactly like the slot machines described above. So no i didn't get "a penny in return for my failed attempt"
TD is a very minor offender....
To bad it took EA crossing the line with Star Wars aka Disney, before people beyond the gaming industry took notice...
As soon as you hear a Congressmen saying stuff like "predatory behavior" and "kids" in the same sentence - you know someone is in trouble.
It's not about TD or even BF2. It's about getting some regulations in place for the gaming industry so that they know where the line is. They are incapable of answering to share holders and policing themselves.
Down side is that games are going to cost more now.
First, I seriously doubt that you got nothing when opening a cache in The Division.
Second, when you opened a cache you got something. May not have been what you wanted, but you got something. Slot machines, you don't hit any of the combinations, you get absolutely nothing.
It's really not a difficult concept.
Ah, if you spend 10 cypher key fragments and get back 7 as a prize... it's 'kinda nothing.
I know that it's a grey area, but in that scenario TD is worse than BF2.
I think the over arching point is more about the predatory behaviour, using human psychology to manipulate people (kids) into spend more money than the 'value' of the prize.
The prize cost is unknown because it is dependent on luck. It requires attempts to purchase. If you could go into the marketplace store and just buy Darth Vadar it wouldn't be a problem (even with pay to win).
I don't care what adults do with their money. However, a kid's noodle isn't fully baked and it's not cool for society (games are culture) to encourage children to develop addictive behaviour.
BF2 is directed at kids, TD not so much.
I think it's getting to a point were Game publishers as a whole will have to decide if it's worth risking having an an age restricted rating system similar to movies imposed on them. If you have to be 21 to purchase a game... that's going to hurt their sales.
As some people said, determination of gambling means that you may get nothing in gambling and in slot machines. So, it means that in-game gambling is not a gambling (in terms of law).
That's why the determination of gambling should be changed.
It's clear for everyone that it cost nothing to publisher/developer to give you some digital goods (useless goods like parts of the key or something). And it's clear that they did it because of the law.
When the determination of gambling was made, there wasn't such things like in-game digital gambling and this determination should be changed.
I wish everyone understand it.
Seems like Entire games you purchase that use RNG could be lumped in there as well.
Maybe it ain't the game for me but IMO they are missing out on money - I'm quite happy to open my wallet to get what I want and I see the same kind of sentiment expressed in the main TD thread on another forum I visit (OcUK) but I'm not interested in trying to randomly acquire something via the current system.
Personally I'm not against randomly trying to acquire interesting items - I bought most of my gametime via Somer Blink when playing Eve Online to play their lotteries but so much of the "premium" vendor stuff is random tat and so often duplicates I've zero interest in it.
No. It IS something.
It is not gray at all. Seems black and white to me.Quote:
I know that it's a grey area,
Oh, yes, "think of the children"... right.Quote:
I think the over arching point is more about the predatory behaviour, using human psychology to manipulate people (kids) into spend more money than the 'value' of the prize.
Yeah, if we can't agree that
10 - 3 < 10 is a negative amount reward.
We aren't going agree on much about the topic.
And, I'm not thinking of the children, Disney is.
It's okay to make sure that every little girl wants a picture of a princess on her lunch box. It's okay to insidiously cramming consumerism down their throats... as long as it's done in a wholesome way.
The world is a messed up place - parents need to step up and teach their kids that businesses are predatory and manipulative - from Joe Camel to Ronald McDonald, right on up to big pharma.
Unfortunately, most people are sheep and they need a strong socialist agenda to protect them.
it is not a "reward", but let's not go that route. Let's go this route: every time you use a key to open a loot crate, you will get 3 "rewards". That's a fact. If any of these "rewards" happens to be a duplicate of what you already have, then you receive key fragments for each duplicate reward.
Too me gambling is taking a chance on something turning out the way you want it, regardless of odds, money or what ever.
And yet again, we are not trying to merely define "gambling". The definition of "gamble" includes "to take a chance", so you can say you are "gambling" when you open an in-game cache, but also when you try jumping over a large puddle you are not sure you can jump over, ask someone in a bar if you can sit next to them, go on a picnic when it looks it's going to rain, etc...
Let's be serious here. The idea of defining opening in-game caches as "gambling", is not merely to ascertain whether you take a chance or not in opening one. It is purposely trying to equate opening an in-game cache with activities regulated by Gaming Control Boards. What we are trying to do, is ascertain whether opening an in-game cache equates to playing a slot machine, which was the original assertion.
When you put a dollar in a slot machine, pull the lever, and none of the right combinations comes up, you do not get .30¢ towards your next pull. You get absolutely nothing. You have to use real life money for your next attempt.
When you open an in-game cache, you do get 3 items off that cache. If they are duplicates, then you are given a percentage of your cost (key fragments) back towards your next roll. You don't have to use money to buy keys or fragments, they are available in game, and have a fairly high drop rate.
Obviously not the same thing, by a mile.
For me it was just a matter of time for this topic to rise to public recognition [that there are some "gambling-like" parts embedded in certain video games].
What bothers me personally is the fact that there is no oversight as far as I know.
None of the gamers will ever know, IF there actually IS a certain "special" item [MDR/Barret's Vest, etc] available at the times when they should.
Meaning, some people might spent [more and more] money on the chance of obtaining a promised item that might or might not be actual available.
It's not enough from the companies to feed their customers some un-confirmed info like "the chance of getting a MDR is 1.5 % when there's NO oversight whatsoever.
I recognize that the "gambling/not gambling" issue is not easy to solve and in a wider perspective I'd say that people are responsible for their actions, yet I also see the potential danger that looms for people who are prone to getting "lured" into a "gambling-like" situation.
This will be a VERY interesting exchange of opinions - here on this forum and elsewhere.
TD isn't really the best example with loot boxes, they have done a good job with their marketplace, no question. Regardless if some people trying to equate the lock-boxes with slot machines.
We are on the same page in so far as Casino gambling vs Video game loot boxes... they are not the same thing,
The behavior and psychology behind the impulse to purchase is however, the same. All I'm saying is that it needs to be looked at and regulated in some way (yes, for the children).
The big point is that EA crossed the line with a Disney IP and brought the discussion into the cross hairs of Governments.
I think any gamer would rather buy a digital item outright than over-pay with RNG chances in a loot box game for the item. Gambling or not, developers are playing gamers for fools and calling it fun.
If I want to buy cipher keys then I have to convert my money to premium credits. That is the actual purchase I make. Then I convert the premium credits to cipher key fragments.
If the cache contains duplicates then I get a partial refund of cipher key fragments, not my costs. There is no return of actual funds at any stage.
It is NOT a refund. It's a psychological trick to get you to try again. Basically, it's like saying "The next spin will cost less now. Go on, try again".
It is true that you don't need to use cash if you are immune to these psychological tricks, but the people they're targeting are not. That's why it works.
Key fragments do not have a high drop rate. The drop rate is just enough to annoy those trying to collect them. It's been tuned a few times since they were introduced. They're very carefully manipulating the people who are weak to these sorts of tricks.
I hope loot boxes get wiped from full-price games as soon as possible. They're taking the fun out of gaming :)
Who cares if its defined as gambling or not. You people really have nothing better to do than argur a null point? Its a dirty scheme and doesnt belong anywhere.
In want context is it 'dirty' ?
If a player can earn the chances in game in a reasonable amount of time - it's just part of the game. I would classify TD in that category. The Lock-Boxes here are not really any different than gear caches.
The context changes when real world money in involved in purchasing the chances or it's a game directed at kids. Mobile games are far worse and yet it took a EA, Disney and Star wars to create enough smoke for people to yell fire. (because, kids)
I think the 'gambling' definition is just hyperbole people like to argue over to create the impression that loot boxes are somehow illegal, when in fact they are just undefined and unregulated.
Because the game was already paid for. Why should we have to pay more for anything when i already paid for the game and the season pass? Just a dirty scheme to squeeze more money. If you havent seen 21 kilotons on youtube you should. Some of us have had an issue with it before it even released. Only difference here is we dont have as big a voice and are some how labeled the bad guys for criticizing poor marketing tactics.
I'm convinced the Classified drop rate is partially a lie.
Started going to the DZ again to farm up to 4K Div Tech for 1.8.
2 days: 5 Classified drops from DZ 7-8-9. I get the feeling the drop rate in the harder parts of the DZ is higher then everywhere else in the game.
True, but atm it's good that the discussion flares up because:
- If it reaches a certain obvious gambling threshold, a license for gambling should be required
- It also keeps the developers in check: the core business should be designing good games, not designing a game that can facilitate gambling
You are playing a game that requires infrastructure/overhead that is not cheap to run. They are a for profit company. They had bills/utilities/salaries to pay.
Why is it "dirty"?Quote:
Just a dirty scheme to squeeze more money.
I don't think I need to hear more wanton insults with a big dose of hyperbole tossed at Ubisoft/Massive. But, apparently, in the age of youtube/twitter/facebook, that's all most people have, and can't do without them..Quote:
If you havent seen 21 kilotons on youtube you should. Some of us have had an issue with it before it even released. .
Its dirty because its a waste of money and targets simple people. Who in there right mind would spend money at a slim chance to recieve a digital piece of clothing? I understand they have bills but they chose their career path and i chose mine. If youre living outside your means you should adjust, or god forbid produce a product that people want and will pay money for?