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BM357_Fuser
02-29-2004, 06:05 AM
Am I missing something, or should the BF109 be the plane most used at the Reno Air Races?

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BM357_Fuser
02-29-2004, 06:05 AM
Am I missing something, or should the BF109 be the plane most used at the Reno Air Races?

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SkyChimp
02-29-2004, 06:43 AM
They should, but there weren't any left. They all got shot down.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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robban75
02-29-2004, 06:54 AM
?

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

SkyChimp
02-29-2004, 06:58 AM
I think the D-9 would have made a good Reno air-racer, too. But all them were shot down as well.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

WilliVonBill
02-29-2004, 07:11 AM
Well, if the Reno races were strictly straight line sprints ending in impact craters then the 109s and 190s would have distinct advantage. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, to not stray too far from the implied intent of the original query, no... you're not missing something Fuser... there are a number of folks with more knowledge about the subject than I have who are questioning the top speed of the P-51 as it appears in FB.

st3v3_pwnage
02-29-2004, 07:21 AM
HEY SKYCHIMP ME AND U R BROTHERS MAN WE BOTH LOVE AMERICAN STUFF AND WE KNOW ITS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE JUST BECAOS ITS AMERICAN

DaBallz
02-29-2004, 07:46 AM
Ok, I'll try a factual stab at this question.
After a little web surfing I found no record
of a german fighter ever used at the "NATIONAL AIR RACES"
at Reno or Phoenix.
There have been a few attempts with foregin fighters
such as newly manufactured Yaks and, back in the 40's, Spits.
Also today you will find re-engined hawker
Tempests and fury's.
The only record of a Spit being remotely competative
is in 1947 at Cleveland. A griffon engined Spit
took 3rd place behind a P-51K and the winner,
which was was a F2G-2 super Corsair.
Today at Reno it's a P-51 show. The "Rare Bear" is
no longer competative and the Sea Fury's
tend to stack up in third place or
worse.
I doubt a Bf-109 or Fw-190 with DB power could stay
together long enough for a win. Those power boosting
techniques used on the DB would severly shorten
their life span.
Funny that the Merlins (much modified) manage
to make nearly 3HP (over 4,000hp) per cubic inch and hold together for the Reno program!

By the way, Yak-3's and Yak-9's are not even close
to being competative at Reno. They are there every year
but I am unaware of any yak's making it into the gold race.

Oh yes, as to the original question, the P-51
in FB is severly under modeled. But it's a Russian
flight sim, so don't hold your breath waiting
for the fix.
Russian planes will continue to dominate (go figure).


Da

VW-IceFire
02-29-2004, 08:32 AM
The P-51 is serverly undermodeled? Wha?

Are we playing the same game? I love the P-51 and find it one of the best fighters in the game...holds energy like crazy, blasts aircraft from the skies.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

SKY_BOSS
02-29-2004, 08:38 AM
What I don't get is all these super planes in this sim were shot down by the not so super planes in this sim,in real life. Hell why did the USA give Russia any planes. If the russian planes fly like they do in this sim. 50 of them with 16 year old pilots could of wiped out the german air force and 1 KI could of ruled the pacific.

http://members.cox.net/ironwarlock/skynew.jpg

Chuck_Older
02-29-2004, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SKY_BOSS:
What I don't get is all these super planes in this sim were shot down by the not so super planes in this sim,in real life. Hell why did the USA give Russia any planes. If the russian planes fly like they do in this sim. 50 of them with 16 year old pilots could of wiped out the german air force and 1 KI could of ruled the pacific.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi. I have a question-
Are you seriously asking those questions?

SKY_BOSS
02-29-2004, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SKY_BOSS:
Just mocking the sillyness of some of the planes. Law of the land if I fly past you at 400 mph and you fly past me at 400 mph and keep heading straight. I cant turn and be on your six in 10 secs but in this sim you can. But as Bill O Rielly would say "I could be wrong" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



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Chuck_Older
02-29-2004, 09:14 AM
That's why I asked.

*****************************
Did anyone prophesize these people? Only Travis. Come in Travis! ~ Clash

Fillmore
02-29-2004, 09:18 AM
What is it 10-15kph too slow at 7500m? something like that if I recall correctly, I wouldn't call it severe, but I would consider it significant. I think at lower altitdes (before the supercharger shifts) the speeds are correct. This was brought up in the public beta and it was said that the supercharger in the public beta wasn't finished, but I guess when they finished it they left the high gear a little weak.

robban75
02-29-2004, 09:22 AM
I have no problems reaching 703km/h at 7500m with full internal fuel in the P-51, I have yet to test its low alt topspeed but up high it's correct.

It's important on which map the speed test is conducted. I did my test in the QMB over crimea. Other maps might not give you this speed.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Fuser:
Am I missing something, or should the BF109 be the plane most used at the Reno Air Races?

http://bm357.com
_Blazing Magnums 357th VFG_
http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html | http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp | http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_join.htm | http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_dossier_fuser.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They don't race stock planes. The Reno P-51's put out 3000 HP. You also need a plane that's aerodynamic. That leaves out the 109's.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bremspropeller
02-29-2004, 10:03 AM
"A plane that's aerodynamic..."

LoL

If it wasn't aerodynamic, it would not have lift off the ground...

http://www.brooksart.com/Ontheprowl.jpg
"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de
http://www.jg68.de.vu

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
"A plane that's aerodynamic..."

LoL

If it wasn't aerodynamic, it would not have lift off the ground...

http://www.brooksart.com/Ontheprowl.jpg
"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de
http://www.jg68.de.vu

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Have you ever seen a flying doghouse? I'm sure you know what I meant wiseguy.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-29-2004, 10:11 AM
Bearcat is the most popular amongst air racers.

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/98027.jpg

Maple_Tiger
02-29-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
I have no problems reaching 703km/h at 7500m with full internal fuel in the P-51, I have yet to test its low alt topspeed but up high it's correct.

It's important on which map the speed test is conducted. I did my test in the QMB over crimea. Other maps might not give you this speed.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Coming from a guy oh also said he could get the P-51 to do a complete roll in one second and who is an FW fan.

Lmao

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 10:18 AM
VMF-214_HaVoK

As far as I know. There was only one Bearcat (Rarebear), and it doesn't fly anymore. The P-51 has to be the most popular.


btw..That's a Corsair.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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SkyChimp
02-29-2004, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by st3v3_pwnage:
HEY SKYCHIMP ME AND U R BROTHERS MAN WE BOTH LOVE AMERICAN STUFF AND WE KNOW ITS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE JUST BECAOS ITS AMERICAN<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're just jealous because I got the brains and looks. And mom loves me more.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

robban75
02-29-2004, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger

Coming from a guy oh also said he could get the P-51 to do a complete roll in one second and who is an FW fan.

Lmao
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please Maple_Tiger, dig up the thread were I said just that. I can however make a full roll in little over 2 seconds with the P-51.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

FW190fan
02-29-2004, 10:42 AM
Actually I think the Dora would have been a phenomenal Reno Air Racer, especially as heavily modified as the Mustangs they race there today.

The Jumo 213 was an extremely powerful and adaptable engine. Imagine a hot-rodded DB603N at Reno http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure the Dora 9-13/Ta-152C would hand the P-51 it's *** just like it could in real life.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
Actually I think the Dora would have been a phenomenal Reno Air Racer, especially as heavily modified as the Mustangs they race there today.

The Jumo 213 was an extremely powerful and adaptable engine. Imagine a hot-rodded DB603N at Reno http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure the Dora 9-13/Ta-152C would hand the P-51 it's *** just like it could in real life.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dreaming doesn't win races though.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

SkyChimp
02-29-2004, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
Actually I think the Dora would have been a phenomenal Reno Air Racer, especially as heavily modified as the Mustangs they race there today.

The Jumo 213 was an extremely powerful and adaptable engine. Imagine a hot-rodded DB603N at Reno http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure the Dora 9-13/Ta-152C would hand the P-51 it's *** just like it could in real life.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me, too. And it would have done well in the stock class early on - unmodified. Good roll, rapid acceleration. And it probably would have if there were anything like enough of them.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

FW190fan
02-29-2004, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
[Dreaming doesn't win races though.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Buzz
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I know but at least I can dream can't I? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Admit it Buzz, Doras and Ta-152s at Reno would be cool as heck.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

Snoop_Baron
02-29-2004, 10:55 AM
robban, could you put up some tracks I'd like to get that kind of speed and roll out of the p51 thanks!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

SkyChimp
02-29-2004, 10:56 AM
I don't think the Ta-152 would have done well, though.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
[Dreaming doesn't win races though.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Buzz
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I know but at least I can dream can't I? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Admit it Buzz, Doras and Ta-152s at Reno would be cool as heck.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it would be cool seeing the P-51 hand the butt to the FW...........again.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Buzz
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Bull_dog_
02-29-2004, 10:59 AM
The Dora and Ta-152 at Reno...might hand a P-51 its lunch...then again maybe not...

My understanding is that many of the published flight statistics amongst Luftwaffe aircraft are engineering figures...don't know which is factual or not (can't wait for the trolls now). That is why I like reading the pilot accounts and head to head competitions so much.

I believe the Mustang performs so well because it has perhaps the most drag free, aerodynamic design of any fighter...if that is true (I think it is because of what I see at the races and what I read from pilots and engineers) then I doubt any less aerodynamic design would beat it consistantly cause horsepower doesn't seem to be the limiting factor at the races

FW190fan
02-29-2004, 11:02 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of a Ta152C with a DB603. (Yes - fantasy)

But I think the Ta-152H would not be a god Reno racer for a few reasons:

1. It's not incredibly fast down low
2. Wake turbulence would play havoc on the rediculously long wings
3. Other planes would keep running into it's wings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
I was thinking more along the lines of a Ta152C with a DB603. (Yes - fantasy)

But I think the Ta-152H would not be a god Reno racer for a few reasons:

1. It's not incredibly fast down low
2. Wake turbulence would play havoc on the rediculously long wings
3. Other planes would keep running into it's wings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You finally woke up. The FW was a great fighter, but I don't think racing would have been one of it's strong points.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

robban75
02-29-2004, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
robban, could you put up some tracks I'd like to get that kind of speed and roll out of the p51 thanks!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll see what I can do. BTW I have a Freedom 2.4 Cordless joystick, and it's very sensetive to inputs. With it I get 2.6 seconds for a full roll without the use of rudder on the P-51. Best roll speed is around 540km/h TAS.

In need a host though! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

[This message was edited by robban75 on Sun February 29 2004 at 10:55 AM.]

DaBallz
02-29-2004, 11:19 AM
http://www.rarebear.com/

Rare Bear took 2nd in the gold at RENO 2003...
It is not retired. Read the article at the link
I posted. The Rear Bear is no longer powered
by the original stock P&W R-2800.
It is powered by a Curtiss Wright R-3350.
I have seen a few guestimates about the power
output of the big Wright, 4500-5000 hp seems
to be the concensus.

A P&W R-2800 powered Yak qualified last year.
This is the first I had heard of it.

Dago Red (P-51) qualified in second but ran
some 511mph laps!!!!!

Got that Luftwhiners, 511mph at 4,000'!
511mph around the pylons.

Dago Red won the gold.

Da...

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 11:27 AM
Ah ok. I haven't followed the Reno races for the last couple of years. I thought I heard the Bearcat had retired. Bad info it looks like.

Those speeds are amazing when you consider how they are doing them. I wonder how fast they would be in a straight line. Has anybody ever tried it?

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

horseback
02-29-2004, 12:08 PM
When you're talking about air racing, one of the critical issues becomes powerplant availability and maintainability, which are really two sides to the same coin. There are simply more Merlins still available than any other high powered combustion aircraft engines out there. They're well understood, engineers and mechanical geniuses have tinkered with its every nook and cranny, and they've figured out how to get as much as possible out of it.

You would think that there would be a lot more R-2800s out there, given that so many major types used it, but the sheer size and complexity may have come into play there.

The fact is, that as far as development of new high powered internal combustion aircraft engines went, progress pretty much came to a halt after WWII.

In any case, only the Sea Fury and the Bearcat appear to have had aerodynamic qualities comparable to the Mustang, and their powerplants appear to be harder to come by.

As for the late model 109s, theirs was a classic case of brute force and a small payload, not aerodynamic efficiency. If a reasonable number of DB 605 engines were still available, though, I'm sure that a barely recognizable 109 derivative might be competetive, assuming that the controls didn't get too heavy at those speeds.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Bamatt
02-29-2004, 12:29 PM
Here is a link to a video of the 507mph lap of the Dago-Red P-51. Man, it screams by on the very last lap, about 50 feet off the ground.

http://www.dagored-airracing.com/video/dago_02r/dago_02r_0909_hb.ram

BlindHuck
02-29-2004, 01:05 PM
Don't forget Greenemeyer's Bearcat that won 6 years in a row and is now in the Smithsonian or Levitz' Bearcat of the mid '70's and I know there was at least one more I can't think of. RareBear was dominant as long as the money was flowing, as soon as they started asking for donations to keep the plane racing they dropped off the map. Thats why I stopped following air racing: List the teams by budget size and you've got the race results.

And - none of the hot race mustangs are running WW2 engines. They've all got '50's era transport cylinder banks (and other parts) which are more efficient/tougher.

"I race full real exclusively in IL2:The Forgotten Battles." - Mark Donohue

Maple_Tiger
02-29-2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger

Coming from a guy oh also said he could get the P-51 to do a complete roll in one second and who is an FW fan.

Lmao
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please Maple_Tiger, dig up the thread were I said just that. I can however make a full roll in little over 2 seconds with the P-51.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even alittle over two seconds is amazing. I fly the P-51 proubly alot more then you and have never been able to do a complete roll in 1 second or even just over 2 seconds.

Im sorry but i cant help but laugh.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

robban75
02-29-2004, 01:30 PM
If you can host my track you can see for yourself. 2.6 seconds for a full roll.

And, I never said I could do it in one second.

But it's no big deal really since most planes roll too fast anyways.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

DaBallz
02-29-2004, 02:16 PM
Merlin race motor today is built of late 40's vintage
transport crank cases, Packard banks, crankshafts
and most internal components.
Cams are reground Packard camshafts, Iskendarian
regrinds em last I heard.
Superchargers, connecting rods and supercharger
drives are of late Allison vintage.

Truth is none of the engines raced at Reno are
WWII vintage. All are of late 40's to mid 50's
American radial design or in the case of the
Merlins and Griffons, some RR parts.

I know of no Bristol, Napier, or Soviet block engines
being raced.

Da...

VW-IceFire
02-29-2004, 03:33 PM
Who wants a Napier engine...its powerful but if it doesn't start properly then it will probably light on fire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Who wants a Napier engine...its powerful but if it doesn't start properly then it will probably light on fire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because it's racing. AA fuel dragsters blow up a lot too..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Buzz
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