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Cosmonaut.
04-26-2004, 06:13 AM
Kamikaze (from Kami - "god" and kaze - "wind") means 'divine wind' in Japanese. It refers to the typhoon which saved Japan from a Mongol invasion fleet in 1281.
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Kamikaze, the Divine Wind, named in honour of the fortuitous typhoons that had wrecked Kublai Khan's Mongol fleets in 1274 and 1281 and saved Japan from its first foreign invasions.


Will Kamikaze AI be modeled in the Pacific Fighters? I ran a search so I know this has been discussed briefly a couple of times before but I couldn't find an official word on the subject....or are we to far from the release date to know whether it will be modeled or not?

Personally, in terms of authenticity, I would like to see AI Kamikaze in the missions and campaigns but I understand that this could be a touchy subject for a game to simulate.

http://www.freeuploads.co.uk/uploads/cosmo.jpg

‚"divided we fall, together we fly‚"Ě

Cosmonaut.
04-26-2004, 06:13 AM
Kamikaze (from Kami - "god" and kaze - "wind") means 'divine wind' in Japanese. It refers to the typhoon which saved Japan from a Mongol invasion fleet in 1281.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kamikaze, the Divine Wind, named in honour of the fortuitous typhoons that had wrecked Kublai Khan's Mongol fleets in 1274 and 1281 and saved Japan from its first foreign invasions.


Will Kamikaze AI be modeled in the Pacific Fighters? I ran a search so I know this has been discussed briefly a couple of times before but I couldn't find an official word on the subject....or are we to far from the release date to know whether it will be modeled or not?

Personally, in terms of authenticity, I would like to see AI Kamikaze in the missions and campaigns but I understand that this could be a touchy subject for a game to simulate.

http://www.freeuploads.co.uk/uploads/cosmo.jpg

‚"divided we fall, together we fly‚"Ě

darkhorizon11
04-26-2004, 08:46 AM
I was thinking the same thing. Personally, I believe they should add the kamikaze, it would add to the effect of the game. I don't see what the big deal is, its just an aspect of war just like any other weapon. In fact it would be interesting if they included all the different types of aircraft the Japanese used as kamikazes...

WOLFMondo
04-26-2004, 09:50 AM
On the same topic...slightly, I'm not sure if it can be modelled but my dads father who was in the British Pacific Fleet late in the war(he was a 'pom pom' gunner) told me that some of the Royal Navy carriers like HMS Illustrious had very thick deck armour (able to withstand a 500lbs bomb)and some kamikaze's would hit the armoured deck and simply slide over it and off the side of the carrier with limited damage done to the flight deck. I'd ask him to be more specific but he passed away a few years agohttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

If that could be modelled that would be nice.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Latico
04-26-2004, 10:49 AM
If I remember corectly there was no particular plane that was used for the "Kamakazi attacks. If it had wings, it was a potential candidate. I beleive I read where the Enterprise had a near miss with a Betty one time. They weren't sure if it was a true Kamakazi or incapacitated pilots.

For realsim sake why not just have human pilots fly the planes into ships. After all, it ws human pilots that did it back during WWII.

Another thing, the Kamakazis weren't all that big of a problem until after the Midway Campaign, especially during the Okinawa and Iwo Jima Campaigns. Japan was getting pretty desparate by then.

Kz-SaKai
04-26-2004, 11:01 AM
"Kami-kaze" is traduction made by japanese living in america during ww2!!!
For the Japanese side the word used wasn' t kami-kaze but "Shimpu", the traduction is the same (divine wind) butthe conotation is different !!!

The pilots of Shimpu units were called : "Tokkotai" the short word for " ShimpŻ tokubestu kogekitai"

+ Tenno Heiki Banza√¬Į +
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http://membres.lycos.fr/shimpu/banniereKz2.jpg (http://www.kamikaze.clan.st)http://membres.lycos.fr/shimpu/Bannierekzcp.jpg (http://lenzo.hmt-forum.com/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=f8a74ca19b29095f2813c26f1031eced)

sugaki
04-26-2004, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kz-SaKai:
"Kami-kaze" is traduction made by japanese living in america during ww2!!!
For the Japanese side the word used wasn' t kami-kaze but "Shimpu", the traduction is the same (divine wind) but the conotation is different !!!

The pilots of Shimpu units were called : "Tokkotai" the short word for " ShimpŻ tokubestu kogekitai"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but the connotation's the same, as Kamikaze is the Japanese reading, while Shinpu is the Chinese reading of the kanji characters.

It was called Shinpu back then, but most Japanese say Kamikaze nowdays.

FYI to others, it's not ka-ma-kah-zee, it's ka-mee-ka-zeh.

WOLFMondo
04-26-2004, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kz-SaKai:
"Kami-kaze" is traduction made by japanese living in america during ww2!!!
For the Japanese side the word used wasn' t kami-kaze but "Shimpu", the traduction is the same (divine wind) butthe conotation is different !!!

The pilots of Shimpu units were called : "Tokkotai" the short word for " ShimpŻ tokubestu kogekitai"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't know that. Thanks.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Jieitai_Tsunami
04-26-2004, 02:34 PM
I don't think maybe Kamikaze it is a bad idea to have Kamikaze modelled into the game because as I see it is stupid negative American made propaganda.

There are many other aspects to the Japanese side of the war that almost never get mentioned. It was also the later part of the war when Japan formulated these tactics and I think it would get a little boring by that time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Giganoni
04-26-2004, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
On the same topic...slightly, I'm not sure if it can be modelled but my dads father who was in the British Pacific Fleet late in the war(he was a 'pom pom' gunner) told me that some of the Royal Navy carriers like HMS Illustrious had very thick deck armour (able to withstand a 500lbs bomb)and some kamikaze's would hit the armoured deck and simply slide over it and off the side of the carrier with limited damage done to the flight deck. I'd ask him to be more specific but he passed away a few years agohttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

If that could be modelled that would be nice.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
http://www.wolfgaming.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have read books too saying that Kamikazes would just dent british flattops, but American flight decks were easy(er) to damage.

DuxCorvan
04-26-2004, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kz-SaKai:
"Kami-kaze" is traduction made by japanese living in america during ww2!!!
For the Japanese side the word used wasn' t kami-kaze but "Shimpu", the traduction is the same (divine wind) butthe conotation is different !!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's similar to 'harakiri'. The correct term is 'seppuku'.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Bob_Bobulan
04-26-2004, 06:04 PM
Howdy, british flattops had decks made of steel where as american ones where just wood. I read an account once where a Kamikaze hit a british carrier and just left a 3 inch dent, where if it had been an american ship it would have gone strait through the wooden deck.

Lifetaker999
04-26-2004, 08:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jieitai_Tsunami:
I don't think maybe Kamikaze it is a bad idea to have Kamikaze modelled into the game because as I see it is stupid negative American made propaganda.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that Americans made up Kamikaze's or what? How is the "Japanese use of suicidal conscripts" late in the war "Stupid negative American made propaganda." For sure there was wicked propaganda from all participants in WWII, but how does the "Japanese use of suicidal conscripts" = Stupid negative American made propaganda."

sugaki
04-26-2004, 10:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lifetaker999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jieitai_Tsunami:
I don't think maybe Kamikaze it is a bad idea to have Kamikaze modelled into the game because as I see it is stupid negative American made propaganda.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that Americans made up Kamikaze's or what? How is the "Japanese use of suicidal conscripts" late in the war "Stupid negative American made propaganda." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure how kamikaze was even used for American propaganda ...since Japanese forces actually did it.

Back to talk about carriers: toward the end of the war the kamikaze targetted troop transports. They didn't always target carriers. Either way, Essex class ships have nowhere near the amount of armor that Illustrious class do (or is it Invincible?)

-Aki

jeroen_R90S
04-27-2004, 03:17 AM
AOTP had it, so why not PF?

Jeroen

F19_Olli72
04-27-2004, 04:20 AM
Dont forget the Japanese army also had suicide pilots, they used the term 'Shimbu' wich means something like "Gathering of the brave forces" (might be far off since im reading a translated book)

________________________________________________
www.screenshotart.com (http://www.screenshotart.com/) The place for screenshots.

KIMURA
04-27-2004, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kz-SaKai:
"Kami-kaze" is traduction made by japanese living in america during ww2!!!
For the Japanese side the word used wasn' t kami-kaze but "Shimpu", the traduction is the same (divine wind) butthe conotation is different !!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's similar to 'harakiri'. The correct term is 'seppuku'.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My Japanese Karate-Do istruction told me Harakiri and Sepuku is not the same thing. He told me Harakiri was reserved to aristocracy and differented in the ritual whereas Sepuku belonged to lower caste.

Kimura

Jieitai_Tsunami
04-27-2004, 04:48 AM
I am not sure about the view on Kamikaze in war time but there are so many stupid documentaries and books on it. That gives the impression that the Japanese were stupid fanatics intent on killing them selves for bushido which is:-

'I have no parents; I make the Heavens and the Earth my parents.
I have no home; I make the Tan T'ien my home.
I have no divine power; I make honesty my Divine Power.
I have no means; I make Docility my means.
I have no magic power; I make personality my Magic Power.
I have neither life nor death; I make A Um my Life and Death.

I have no body; I make Stoicism my Body.
I have no eyes; I make The Flash of Lightning my eyes.
I have no ears; I make Sensibility my Ears.
I have no limbs; I make Promptitude my Limbs.
I have no laws; I make Self-Protection my Laws.

I have no strategy; I make the Right to Kill and the Right to Restore Life my Strategy.
I have no designs; I make Seizing the Opportunity by the Forelock my Designs.
I have no miracles; I make Righteous Laws my Miracle.
I have no principles; I make Adaptability to all circumstances my Principle.
I have no tactics; I make Emptiness and Fullness my Tactics.

I have no talent; I make Ready Wit my Talent.
I have no friends; I make my Mind my Friend.
I have no enemy; I make Incautiousness my Enemy.
I have no armour; I make Benevolence my Armour.
I have no castle; I make Immovable Mind my Castle.
I have no sword; I make No Mind my Sword.'

I hope games like CFS2 helped to remove some of the stereo types for some people and don't like the idea of this turning into some Vietnam kill em all action sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

WOLFMondo
04-27-2004, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob_Bobulan:
Howdy, british flattops had decks made of steel where as american ones where just wood. I read an account once where a Kamikaze hit a british carrier and just left a 3 inch dent, where if it had been an american ship it would have gone strait through the wooden deck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all British carriers did but the Illustrious class had the armoured decks which ment they had a smaller contingent of planes but they were incredibly tough carriers. They also had a huge armour belt. I think most of the carriers in the RN pacific fleet were of the Illustrious class though. Will we get a British carrier for are seafires? I dearly hope so. I'd also like to see the King George V battleship as well.

US carrier decks were wooden but that was a benefit in some circumstances as it was easier to repair. If a RN Carrier armoured deck was pierced it was allot harder to fix.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Lifetaker999
04-27-2004, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jieitai_Tsunami:
I am not sure about the view on Kamikaze in war time but there are so many stupid documentaries and books on it. That gives the impression that the Japanese were stupid fanatics intent on killing them selves for bushido which is:-

I hope games like CFS2 helped to remove some of the stereo types for some people and don't like the idea of this turning into some Vietnam kill em all action sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF does any of that have to do with your comment:
Originally posted by Jieitai_Tsunami:
I don't think maybe Kamikaze it is a bad idea to have Kamikaze modelled into the game because as I see it is stupid negative American made propaganda.

What did you mean by this? Are you Anti American or something?

KIMURA
04-27-2004, 07:32 AM
Lifetake, I'm sure he meant most who don't have/had access to PTO warfare think/thought about Japanese that way, and that games like CFS2 helped cleaned up with such prejudices.

CFS2 was a good reason starting my interests for JAAF/IJN stuff - BTW. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura

Jieitai_Tsunami
04-27-2004, 07:51 AM
I am just saying that some information I have heard from American sources seems to be a little out of proportion, exaggerated or one sided. And there seems to be little factual Japanese sources on these types of subject to balance it out.

I don't like the idea of this game turning into a farce with online players flying into each other shouting BANZAI!! lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

ForkTailedDevil
04-27-2004, 05:03 PM
I'm sorry but that is almost funny.......everyone online trying to ram other aircraft or just as they are about to scream BANZAI!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jieitai_Tsunami
04-28-2004, 04:20 AM
But I do like to do that when I get bored with those damn B-17s though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

DuxCorvan
04-28-2004, 04:45 AM
We could make a suicidal squad online... Imagine the apparition of three of five fast unarmed aircraft crying BANZAAAIII and trying to crash with the enemy while this tries to avoid them...

Funny...

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

BSS_Vidar
04-29-2004, 10:22 PM
Great Idea for coop missions. Kind of like the V-1 Buzz Bombs in FB.

Vidar

Nimits
04-29-2004, 11:56 PM
Jieitai_Tsunami,

How is information from American sources unbalanced concerning Japanese suicide attacks unbalanced?

By 1945, Suicide attacks were the only effective offensive weapons left to Japan's air and naval forces; most of the Navy was sitting at the bottom of the Pacific while the air forces were short of qualified pilots. That's history, supported by Japanese and American forces.

If mass suicide attacks aren't an example of fanaticism, I don't know what is. At the very least, you must grant that it takes fatalism or obidience to orders to an unnatural extreme.

Anyway, if kamikaze pilots deserve respect, they deserve no more than the other thousands of pilots who died dutifully fighting for mistaken causes, pilots' whose missions and deaths we already simulate in IL2FB.

BTW, I don't know what stereotypes you thought CFS2 deflated, but the history of the Pacific War as presented in the CFS2 game and manual was full of errors and somewhat slanted in favor of the Japanese.

Giganoni
04-30-2004, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nimits:
Jieitai_Tsunami,

How is information from American sources unbalanced concerning Japanese suicide attacks unbalanced?

By 1945, Suicide attacks were the only effective offensive weapons left to Japan's air and naval forces; most of the Navy was sitting at the bottom of the Pacific while the air forces were short of qualified pilots. That's history, supported by Japanese and American forces.

If mass suicide attacks aren't an example of fanaticism, I don't know what is. At the very least, you must grant that it takes fatalism or obidience to orders to an unnatural extreme.

Anyway, if kamikaze pilots deserve respect, they deserve no more than the other thousands of pilots who died dutifully fighting for mistaken causes, pilots' whose missions and deaths we already simulate in IL2FB.

BTW, I don't know what stereotypes you thought CFS2 deflated, but the history of the Pacific War as presented in the CFS2 game and manual was full of errors and somewhat slanted in favor of the Japanese.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think fanatacism can be seen on both sides, not just solely the Japanese. Look at the Marines during the pacific campaign..like Tarawa while their buddies are getting shot up on the beach, the marines still on the boats were clamoring to get onto the beach. It was basically suicide wading in water after the higgins boats got stuck, but they were begging to go. Sounds a lot like the relentless Banzai charges to me. Also is kamikaze such a fanatical idea? Lets say the theory is one plane (one man) can heavily damage or even sink one ship, is that such a "crazy" solution? Sounds to me like a very cheap and effective way to cripple a fleet with minimal risk to the country as a whole. Of course this is in theory.

Jieitai_Tsunami
04-30-2004, 05:40 AM
I don't know about America but in England I like to watch the history channel from time to time. There are many documentaries about European battles such as the paratroopers in Create. With interviews on both English and German troops that were in the battle.

Although the last documentary on Kamikaze that was pronounced Kamikarzey through the hole program. Did not included not one interview with either American or Japanese pilots and crew.

I think both America and Japan like to forget and cover up what really happened, and put most books and sources on the subject down to total Krap.

But after all this is only a game. If modelled correctly and Kami-kaze is or isn't put in the game I am sure it will go well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Nimits
04-30-2004, 08:45 AM
Giganoni,

I will grant you from a strategic perspective, kamikaze can look somewhat rational. At the same time, you have to admit that there is something "unbalanced" about a military/government that is willing to throw away so many lives rather than admit defeat.

The example of the Marines has nothing do with fanaticism. Rather, it is a fairly normal reaction of troops, especially highly trained but inexperianced troops, to want to get into combat. Read some books such as Keegan's Face of Battle for a better explanation.


Jieitai_Tsunami

In the US, the History Channel is so notorious for covering the war in Europe to the exclusion of all else it has been nicknamed the "Hitler Channel." The History Channel can often be enjoyable, and probably more often than not it gets things right, but it is by no means representative of the state of historical scholarship.

That said, there is a reason that documentaries don't often feature interviews with Kamikaze pilots . . .

CornbreadPattie
04-30-2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>QUOTED FROM Nimits At the same time, you have to admit that there is something "unbalanced" about a military/government that is willing to throw away so many lives rather than admit defeat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The country never "threw" people into planes and made them hit carriers. The pilots ALL volunteered, and before Shimbu was made an official part of the armed forces, it was established that pilots would only be taken on a volunteer basis, and even then, the war didn't last long enough to take this past expirimental phases. The pilots volunteered for this mission because they, as individuals thought it was important.

Sound familiar? Think February 1942 when Dolittle was recruiting volunteers for a 'suicide mission' of our own.
And why? Well, the raid did NO strategic damage and did not affect production of anything, but it did make a good headline for people striving for some good news. Also, do you think the US was going to admit defeat even though all it had in service in 1941/early - 42 was out of date models of virtually every type of weapon needed to fight a war?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The example of the Marines has nothing do with fanaticism. Rather, it is a fairly normal reaction of troops, especially highly trained but inexperianced troops, to want to get into combat. Read some books such as Keegan's Face of Battle for a better explanation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it is fairly normal for a US Marine to want to go into combat and kill for 'their' country, but saying that that has nothing to do with fanaticism or extreme nationalism is totally incorrect.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Jieitai_Tsunami

In the US, the History Channel is so notorious for covering the war in Europe to the exclusion of all else it has been nicknamed the "Hitler Channel." The History Channel can often be enjoyable, and probably more often than not it gets things right, but it is by no means representative of the state of historical scholarship.

That said, there is a reason that documentaries don't often feature interviews with Kamikaze pilots . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand. There are Kamikaze survivors. Fully trained, and operational pilots who were sent off on their mission and were called back. Many Kamikaze missions were scrapped in mid-air when it was apparent that they would be facing unfavorable conditions. e.i. wouldn't be able to make it through, insufficient escorts, target couldn't be found, or unfavorable weather conditions. So, Kamikaze pilots are still around, and have been/can be contacted for an interview. I think it depends more on who makes the program.

It can be unanimously agreed that the History Channel does air programs with incorrect/biased information.

sugaki
04-30-2004, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The country never "threw" people into planes and made them hit carriers. The pilots ALL volunteered, and before Shimbu was made an official part of the armed forces, it was established that pilots would only be taken on a volunteer basis, and even then, the war didn't last long enough to take this past expirimental phases. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know where you get this from, as even Japanese sources say that it wasn't all voluntary, though many did.

However, the common Western portrayal of fanaticism shows not only a lack of understanding of how the Japanese pilots thought, but also of Japanese culture in general.

They weren't driven mad because they were losing. They didn't become ravenous cooks foaming at the mouth shrieking "Banzai" to their deaths, as Westerners commonly believe--I think Jieitai_tsunami's gripe is that Kamikaze has been caricaturized to the point of rude absurdity.

They thought of it as an honor, and even a duty, to die defending for their country. If giving oneself for the country means even slightly increasing the chances of success, it was worth it in their eyes. Most of the kamikaze pilots were 19-20 years old, and obviously didn't want to die. But many saw it as something they got to do, not because of blaring propaganda on the radio, but with the overwhelming sense that "they cannot lose their country." No way they woulda known that Japan would rebuild itself up to the state it is today, they thought their identity as a nation was at stake, which to an extent it was.

Don't get me wrong, I think kamikaze's a really sad part of the war, and don't think they should've done it. But to say "they were all loons" is frankly from a foreign perspective that doesn't understand the culture, nor the ethos of what Japanese thought losing the war meant.

-Aki

Lifetaker999
04-30-2004, 11:37 AM
Sugkai, that was a well written explanation of Jieitai_tsunami's various rants. If that was stated from the start I doubt you would have any debate. It was the "Stupid American Propaganda" line that caused my concern.

Many times the "Stupid Foreign Perspective" of all Americans is so full of generalizations and misconceptions that it causes some of us to respond. We are not monlithic in America. Afterall, we are the most culturally diverse country in the world, with people from every part of the globe as citizens. The perception of our country by foreigners often is based on our governments' foreign policy, which rarely reflects the true nature of our people and our desires. We are a country where a declared President can be and was elected, eventhough he received less actual votes than the declared loser.

sugaki
04-30-2004, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Many times the "Stupid Foreign Perspective" of all Americans is so full of generalizations and misconceptions that it causes some of us to respond. We are not monlithic in America. Afterall, we are the most culturally diverse country in the world, with people from every part of the globe as citizens. The perception of our country by foreigners often is based on our governments' foreign policy, which rarely reflects the true nature of our people and our desires. We are a country where a declared President can be and was elected, eventhough he received less actual votes than the declared loser.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, our system of election is an electoral college, so technically it's not based on popular consensus http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Or maybe you're referring to the Florida state thingy?

Not saying that Americans are any worse than Japanese, French in terms of perception of the world, ignorance, etc.

Frankly you have ignorant people all around the world, who, for some reason seem to aggregate in the media industry (myself included :P)

But going back to the original point about Kamikaze, heck old war veterans and ex-kamikaze pilots (yes, they do exist) think that even modern Japanese people are very ignorant about Kamikaze, so I didn't mean it to be a rip at "those stupid westerners." Was just pointing out that different cultures tend to perceive others from their own ethos, which doesn't always work.

-Aki

Giganoni
04-30-2004, 03:13 PM
Heck I think the first "official" Kamikaze run was ordered, not volunteered. I have read books where pilots resisted becoming Kamikaze, sometimes with success..and of course, not every pilot found his target. In truth I see the Marines in WWII as the closest example of "fanaticism" Tarawa is just like a banzai charge, Marines had a habit of risking their lives just for the dead bodies of their comrades. Now compare that to a ramming unit for an air squadron. Both the marine(s) and pilot(s) who do their tasks have a chance of survival. However the marines are on a "suicide" mission to save...a corpse. The ramming unit is trying to prevent B-29s from bombing their people and industry. Generally in America people (not everyone) would see the marines as "brave" (which perhaps it is) Yet the Japanese pilots would be "fanatical"...now anyone see a problem with that?

Nimits
04-30-2004, 08:00 PM
I know there were kamikaze pilots who never completed a mission, I have read interviews, etc. concerning them.

I have no idea where you guys are getting all this "common Western portrayal" stuff, or why we are even having this discussion. Popular American (and European) military history virtually ignores the war in the Pacific (except when the usual suspects take pot-shots at the atomic bomb decision and the occasional Pearl Harbor special). Most that do pay any attention are well aware that the Kamikaze was not an entirerly unnatural result of the (arguably flawed) Japanese military culture, and I have never heard them referred to as "lunitics."

Yet, whatever their motives, intentionally throwing one's life away with no hope of survival at all is basically suicide, a concept anti-thetical to the morals of western Christian culture, and one that seemed insane, brutal, and ultimately useless to the men on the receiving end.

CornbreadPattie,
As I said before, most highly trained troops are eager for combat, especially those that have not tasted iit before. Their motives varied a bit on the surface, but ultimately boiled down to loyalty and a sense of duty to their unit and to the men beside and a desire to prove themselves in combat. This according to Keegan and most other reputable historians (Please read Face of Battle for an excellent study in will to combat). Arguing that the Marines at Tarawa were eager to go into combat from some fanatical love of country is completely misaprehends the nature of ground combat.

To compare the Marines at Tarawa, or even the Doolittle Raid, to the Japanese Kamikaze pilots (in fact to compare anything in American military history to the Japan's pre-1945 military heritage) is disengenuous. Americans (and most western militaries) operated from a completely different ethical background than did the Japanese; there is no way that America, even facing defeat, would have engaged in mass suicide warfare. The Third Reich, arguably (tied with the USSR for the dubious distinction of) the most unbalanced regime in WWII Europe, generally tried to leave its "suicide" fighters with at least the chance of survival, while th suicide attacks themselves were generally opposed, rather than embraced (as they were in Japan) by the military leadership.

BTW, I still maintain that the number of pilots alive today that actually successfully engaged in a kamikaze mission is very low.

Latico
04-30-2004, 08:48 PM
I would submit that not ALL Japanese planes that crashed into ships or appeared to attempt it, were deliberate Kamakazee attacks. Some of them may have been planes whose pilots had been incapacitated during their dive, or the controls of the plane could have been damaged by the heavy AA that was fired on the enemy planes.

I think we can all aggree that their is a difference between the culters of the Americans and the Japanese. There seems to be a different approach to "honor" as I see it. I have yet to see American Banking executives go to the streets to apologize to the public for banking failures as we did when Japan had some financial problems a few years ago.

Nimits
04-30-2004, 09:40 PM
There is a legend of sorts that the Japanese Kamikaze idea was partially inspired by the example of an American dive-bomber pilot who crashed into a Japanese crusier during the Japanese retreat from Midway after being killed at the controls.

However, there are numerous accounts of Japanese bomber and fighter pilots attempting to ram their plans into the nearest target after receive critical damage, rather than ditch or bail out and risk capture.

Giganoni
05-01-2004, 04:00 AM
Yet nothing said here denies that the Marines were, at times, as zealous as the Japanese which we during those times, termed, "fanatical" unless you do not see the Japanese's actions "fanatical" condsidering the culture. Banzai charges can be attributed to eagerness for combat. Yet "fanaticism" is when that eagerness becomes unreasonable. If it was not unreasonable at Tarawa, I would say the Banzai charges were not unreasonable and therefore, not fanatical. They were simply eager to help their comrades and get into combat (with a strong sense of duty).

Let us look at the unwillingness for Japanese to surrender which is also considered "fanaticism". Of course we all know that Japanese did surrender there are also a couple of other points. One, there was a disdain in the Japanese armed forces about surrendering (yet..couldn't the same be said for America?). Also, you must look at the propoganda used by the Japanese about the horrible things done to POWS by America(allies) which swayed troops not to surrender. Also, finally and most regrettably the propoganda did hold some truth and many American (and Allied) units simply "Took no prisoners" whether the enemy tried to surrender or not. We can also look at Bataan and the stubborness for American and Fillipino to fight on, often aflicted with disease, hunger, when there was no chance they could be rescued.

You could argue that different cultures, ethics, etc means certain acts are viewed differently by different people. In the overall picture there has to be a universal philisophical definition for "fanaticism" though, in order for people to categorize it. With such a definition you could draw parallels between Allied actions and Japanese.

As for Kamikaze? You are probably correct that the uniqueness of Japanese militarism rising from the 30s brought them about, and perhaps no such desperate actions would be used by America, but hopefully such a time will never occur.

ImpStarDuece
05-01-2004, 04:07 AM
I am currently recruiting for a brand new Scottish Highlands Suicide Division. The last one was so succesful that we've had to start up a new one. Anybody with a predeliction to shout 'Banzai' and run into things please line up just to the left of this large cliff.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Geoffry Smyth-Ball-Winnington Maj. (Rtrd)
111th Scottish Highlanders
1st Regiment
2nd Battalion
3rd Company (Suicide Squad)Sole Survivor (failed the physical http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif)

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

ImpStarDuece
05-01-2004, 04:10 AM
My most sincere apologies to anyone out there who is a Monty Python fan, as i have no inbuilt sense of humour i have to steal it where i can and these boys are a better source than most. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

Jieitai_Tsunami
05-01-2004, 06:05 AM
Another thing concerning stereo types. It seems that all Japanese were willing to give there life for the Emperor both in the air and on land. But I am sure this is not the completely true.
There were Japanese troops that did surrender without a fight because of lack of food and energy to fight on.

I once read that a Japanese soldier was thinking about the last words on the dying Americans that called for there mother. Which to his surprise was the compleatly the same as the Japanese.

A Japanese Kamikaze manual on Kamikaze said that just before you died you would also see the face of your mother.

I remember reading that after the war some Americans did not like the Japanese national anthum. Which talkies about the everlasting reign of the Emperor. But in Britain we say 'God save the Queen' and I don't see a difference.

I don't think people should dwell so much on stereo types..

Nimits
05-01-2004, 10:24 AM
Good grief! You can't rearrange history to accomadate your own desires and preferences.

Penguin_PFF
05-01-2004, 01:12 PM
There's a pretty big difference between "God Save the Queen" and "God IS the Queen (or King)".

The real root of this, I think, is cultural, and it's much deeper than Japan vs. USA, it's more like Orient vs. Occident. Oriental ideas about honor, loyalty, service to authority, etc. are different than Western ideas in a very deep way. In combat it just gets labelled "fanaticism", but it's much more complex than that. It's the same thing that drives Arab mobs to the streets when one of their leaders is killed, it's the same thing that drove Taran pilots in Russia in WW2, it's the same thing that drove mass attacks in Korea and against the Japanese in WW2. It's just a fundamental difference in attitude. It can be found to some degree in the West, but not so much as in the East, I think. Like it or not, there is a cultural gap there that will probably never go away.

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 01:22 PM
No, Soviet Taran attacks by Soviet pilots was different. Basically a calculated exchange of costly and complex German bomber/recce plane for an inexpensive obsolete fighter without sacrificing the pilot. A major goal of Taran was to survive the ram, and that makes it totally different. What we sloppily call "Ramming" in the Taran also included pilots creeping up to Germans and shredding tail with propeller. Although I believe most were deliberate rams. But then, heavy Soviet aircraft might could survive an air ram where Japanese aircraft might not (that damn wood again lol).

Also of note is Saburo's idea of comparing kamikaze to sending untrained pilots against a sky full of late WAR usa fighter planes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On Kamikaze tactics and pilots

A lot of Westerners looked at the kamikaze strategy with complete shock, the idea of putting a kid in a plane and telling him to kill himself by crashing into the enemy. But even if you don't tell him to crash into something, putting a kid with only about 20 hours flight time into a plane and telling him to take on U.S. pilots in Hellcats and Corsairs is just as much a suicidal tactic as being a kamikaze. We figured that if they're going to die anyway, the kamikaze attack will probably cause more damage to the enemy for the same price in lives.

But let me tell you, all that stuff you read about "dying for the emperor...Banzai!" that's all ****. There wasn't one kamikaze pilot or soldier out there who was thinking anything about the emperor when they were facing death. They were thinking about their mother and their family, just like anybody else. The reason those final letters home that they wrote are so filled with emperor glorification stuff is because they knew the censors would read them, and because they simply wanted to try to make their parents proud.

~ http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Giganoni
05-01-2004, 01:32 PM
Many Japanese ramming pilots survived as well.

sugaki
05-01-2004, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The real root of this, I think, is cultural, and it's much deeper than Japan vs. USA, it's more like Orient vs. Occident. Oriental ideas about honor, loyalty, service to authority, etc. are different than Western ideas in a very deep way. In combat it just gets labelled "fanaticism", but it's much more complex than that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much of your point is true, but it's important to note that Japanese culture, even with its Confuscian influence, is decidedly different from other Asian countries.

Nimitz:
"I have no idea where you guys are getting all this "common Western portrayal" stuff, or why we are even having this discussion. "

"...At the same time, you have to admit that there is something "unbalanced" about a military/government that is willing to throw away so many lives rather than admit defeat."

This is the exact reason why we're having this discussion! Your perception of kamikaze is totally different from how the government, and even how much of the Japanese people at that time viewed kamikaze.

Saying kamikaze is "fanaticism," or "unbalanced" is exactly what I mean by "common Western portrayals." You apply your own Judeo-Christian perspective that suicide is bad and apply it to other cultures, which shows you're approaching it from a different angle than Japanese. Kamikaze is wrong, but it doesn't automatically make it fanaticism ...it's in part a product of their culture.

Surrender was perceived as a shameful move, way before kamikaze, way before WWII. Dying to prevent oneself from capture, dying while fighting for one's belief was perceived as the most honorable way to go.

Here's a quote from Chief-Warrant Officer Tagata Takeo, a veteran pilot who was restationed to become a Kamikaze trainer.

"I was asked by the commanding asking why I didn't give them psychological training. I replied by saying how can I teach them psychological preparedness when they've overcome the fear of death. As a long-time fighter pilot, I couldn't teach them about psychological preparedness at all. They were all too admirably prepared."

"After the war, there are those who say stupid things like the [kamikaze pilots] were sacrificed by the facist military regime and killed, meeting a tragic end. The [pilots] died as true Japanese, bravely dying for their country and for the family they'ved loved."

Tagata was given the order to become a Kamikaze pilot himself, but was spared because the war ended before he flew his sortie.

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 01:58 PM
Giganoni:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Many Japanese ramming pilots survived as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Name one "kamikaze" pilot who rammed his/her explosive loaded aircraft into a surface or ship target and survived? The goal of Taran is to survive the collision attack against another aircraft, and usually Tarans were performed by fighters only when out of ammo (yet another vast difference from kamikaze). I don't think teh wester flight simmers want to know about this advanced aspect of Taran, such is the conditioning of western media that new knowledge different from that we were raised with can be truly frightening on a personal level.

There is an amazing story of Ki~43 pilot who landed on top of B~24 and chewed up its tail and survived, amazing story alone *because* it was in a Ki~43.

Giganoni
05-01-2004, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Giganoni:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Many Japanese ramming pilots survived as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Name one "kamikaze" pilot who rammed his/her explosive loaded aircraft into a surface or ship target and survived? The goal of Taran is to survive the collision attack against another aircraft, and usually Tarans were performed by fighters only when out of ammo (yet another vast difference from kamikaze). I don't think teh wester flight simmers want to know about this advanced aspect of Taran, such is the conditioning of western media that new knowledge different from that we were raised with can be truly frightening on a personal level.

There is an amazing story of Ki~43 pilot who landed on top of B~24 and chewed up its tail and survived, amazing story alone *because* it was in a Ki~43.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said ramming units...Shinten units, not Kamikaze units. Their job was to ram into planes which was exactly what you were talking about with Taran units. Many of these ramming pilots survived (at least their first ram) and the story you are talking about is Anabuki, the best JAAF ace of the war. He was credited with 3 b-24s and a p-38 that mission. He developed a tactic used by Japanese fighting bombers called the "Anabuki Run" supposedly...

Nimits
05-01-2004, 05:39 PM
I termed Japanese government and military leadership "unbalanced" due to their inability to admit defeat and willingness to sacrifice so many thousands of Japanese (be they kamikazes, suicide-torpedo drivers, regular Japanese soldiers or sailors, or civilians) to continue to fight an unwinnable (by 1945) war, and their apparent willingness to have sacrificed the entire population of Japan to continue the fight had it not been for the atomic bombs.

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 06:01 PM
Okay Giganoni we are on the same page.

Ye Olde board game Squad Leader had an occasional Berserk mode for infantry units--with corresponding combat benifits and disadvantages. If I recall it applied to all nations' units, but some more than others, and different types of units (SS, partisans, etc...) They had, right or wrong, Berserk mode most often for Russian unit counters . Don't remember much, I was a little squish back then.

Nimits:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I termed Japanese government and military leadership "unbalanced" due to their inability to admit defeat and willingness to sacrifice so many thousands of...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL sounds like the government of the most Pure of white skin Aryan races of All Time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif I feel rather embarassed now of my white skin culture lol.

Most likely, Hitler would never have surrendered even under atomic attack. Also, Japan was ready to surrender before the Bomb, and USA knew this, but some in the Japanese military leadership were never ready. They were alot like Hitler.

sugaki
05-03-2004, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nimits:
I termed Japanese government and military leadership "unbalanced" due to their inability to admit defeat and willingness to sacrifice so many thousands of Japanese (be they kamikazes, suicide-torpedo drivers, regular Japanese soldiers or sailors, or civilians) to continue to fight an unwinnable (by 1945) war, and their apparent willingness to have sacrificed the entire population of Japan to continue the fight had it not been for the atomic bombs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh, then I agree with you...

Actually, it's interesting that even the surrender announcement by the Emperor had to go through some major hurdles--a bunch of military officers held up the NHK building because they didn't want Japan to admit defeat.

-Aki