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DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 04:53 AM
Why did you guys change the combat system? What was wrong with it before? It works fine for Rouge. Why did you guys decide to change it? I loved being able to chain kill my enemies, counter kill them, and assassinate them in smoke clouds. I'm beyond confused as to why you guys got rid of these for Unity.

Also, before anyone tells me why i didn't post in some other thread about this, i want to say i couldn't find one. I tried the search feature and it didn't bring up anything about combat.

wvstolzing
01-14-2015, 04:58 AM
and assassinate them in smoke clouds

You can still do that; in fact it's almost an exploit.

IMHO, the new combat system is a very welcome change. It has its frustrations, but for *once* combat in AC requires a bit of strategizing, and skilled timing.
You'll find that people on these forums play with lower-tier weapons, just to enjoy the challenge a bit more; and that's entirely reasonable.

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 05:13 AM
I used to be able to take on an entire army and now i cant even take out a handful of guys without being killed. Also, i just realized there is no human shield function. So im always getting shot. Perhaps i have become to dependent on the old combat system, but its too much of a change for me to handle.

Freyr1983
01-14-2015, 05:37 AM
i think the new combat system is really good in IMO .

As wvstolzing said require a little strategy and skilled timing :)

Plus it make you like assassin and assassin is not a one man army

Counter kill will make combat system very boring after using it for long.

But if human shield back , it will be great

wvstolzing
01-14-2015, 05:39 AM
It's really worth trying to adapt a little -- again, my opinion.

And with higher-tier weapons & armor, you do end up becoming a one-man army again. :D

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 05:40 AM
So im not going crazy. Human shield was removed, and whats wrong with being a one man army? This is suppose to be a play it your way type of game right? Then they should allow me to play like a one man army. Also, why is the combat system different in Rouge? I think they're testing to see what the people like better. Well i'm putting my vote on the combat system with Rouge

Freyr1983
01-14-2015, 05:44 AM
It's really worth trying to adapt a little -- again, my opinion.

And with higher-tier weapons & armor, you do end up becoming a one-man army again. :D

Ya so i usually try to wear mid tier armor but take high tier weapon (maybe 4 stars)


there is nothing wrong on one man army but i prefer to play like an assassin.

Freyr1983
01-14-2015, 05:45 AM
I just glad the counter kill is not in assassin creed unity

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 05:46 AM
It's really worth trying to adapt a little -- again, my opinion.

And with higher-tier weapons & armor, you do end up becoming a one-man army again. :D

I have high tier armor and weapon and im still getting destroyed -_-... I want my freedom to choose what type of assassin i am. Not be forced to be a certain type!!!!

Freyr1983
01-14-2015, 05:51 AM
use strategy , clear any snipers if they have , time your attack , and plan escape route if the fight went bad .

you just can't rush into the enemy lines without any plan.

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 05:53 AM
use strategy , clear any snipers if they have , time your attack , and plan escape route if the fight went bad .

you just can't rush into the enemy lines without any plan.


Thats not the type of assassin i want to be. I never had to be one like that before either >: (

wvstolzing
01-14-2015, 05:53 AM
there is nothing wrong on one man army but i prefer to play like an assassin.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong about the idea per se -- but previously, it was about the *only* option we had. And frankly it doesn't fit so well with a series where you're supposedly playing someone who lays down plans to take out *specific* targets, and not Kull the Conqueror.

There are a few key cutscenes where you have Assassins condemning needless kills -- compare that with the gameplay, especially of the Ezio games. That guy would need to be tried at the Hague, for crimes against humanity.

(When all he had to do was to wipe out one family, with the backing of the Medici. :rolleyes:)

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 06:03 AM
Yeah, there's nothing wrong about the idea per se -- but previously, it was about the *only* option we had. And frankly it doesn't fit so well with a series where you're supposedly playing someone who lays down plans to take out *specific* targets, and not Kull the Conqueror.

There are a few key cutscenes where you have Assassins condemning needless kills -- compare that with the gameplay, especially of the Ezio games. That guy would need to be tried at the Hague, for crimes against humanity.

(When all he had to do was to wipe out one family, with the backing of the Medici. :rolleyes:)

I believe they claimed that Altair was by far more violent and killed more people. Regardless, i would love for them to give us the option to go either way. Now it feels as if they are forcing us to be stealthy instead of letting us choose what we want to be.

Perk89
01-14-2015, 06:09 AM
I've got to agree with the OP. Especially with how broken stealth is, I should at least be able to enjoy the combat aspect of the game, but that was nerfed beyond reason in an effort to increase the difficulty.


its not that making combat harder was a bad idea-it wasn't-but it came at too high a price. We lost so many tools, weapons, and techniques along with hundreds of cool animations that really did a lot to engage the player and it just wasn't worth it.


Not to mention-Only the very best of Assassins should be able to take on a platoon, but a trained Assassin is supposed to be one of the very bst fighters there is. He shouldn't have significant difficulty taking on two men with a 50/50 shot of dying.

wvstolzing
01-14-2015, 06:09 AM
I believe the claimed that Altair was by far more violent and killed more people. Regardless, i would love for them to give us the option to go either way. Now it feels as if they are forcing us to be stealthy instead of letting us choose what we want to be.

It's really the other way around -- with the best gear, smoke bombs, and health potions, you can *still* defeat an army without breaking a sweat; but now there's the added option to proceed a little more strategically.

In fact it should be *possible* to kill no one in AC, *except* for the specific Assassination targets. Right now, stealth is largely a matter of 'killing unnoticed'; it should also enable one to sneak up to the ultimate target without leaving behind a trail of dead bodies. Although there's been improvement, stealth mechanics are still way too clunky even to approximate that somewhat.

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 06:15 AM
I've got to agree with the OP. Especially with how broken stealth is, I should at least be able to enjoy the combat aspect of the game, but that was nerfed beyond reason in an effort to increase the difficulty.


its not that making combat harder was a bad idea-it wasn't-but it came at too high a price. We lost so many tools, weapons, and techniques along with hundreds of cool animations that really did a lot to engage the player and it just wasn't worth it.


Not to mention-Only the very best of Assassins should be able to take on a platoon, but a trained Assassin is supposed to be one of the very bst fighters there is. He shouldn't have significant difficulty taking on two men with a 50/50 shot of dying.

Exactly!!! I used to love the assassin creed games. I will be getting the next one, i just hope they find a balance for this new difficulty and the combat system that was working before.

AssassinHMS
01-14-2015, 06:22 AM
Ugh, this is why you shouldnít forfeit yourself. Ubisoft sold out right after AC1 and, with that, came a whole new crowd (just like they wanted). Well, problem is, this crowd wants the things that arenít good for the franchise. They donít care about the actual series. All they want is their mindless action and to be sugarcoated by games that treat them like babies while calling them ďmenĒ. Do they care that these things arenít good for the franchise? That Assassinís Creed can revolutionize gaming if only it stays true to its roots and pushes them to the limit? That AC is capable of so much better gameplay? No, all you care about is being a one-man-army and feeling good about yourself but, dare a game try to challenge you in the slightest or evolve in any way and we have a huge problem.
And now Ubisoft canít go back or change course. Because, if they do that, this huge crowd they attracted, wonít let them: ďBut I want my mindless fun!Ē; ďNo naval?! The same boring core? Tsss, Ubisoft is milking this francise to the bones!Ē; etc.

Ubisoft brought this to themselves. They sold out and now they arenít allowed to regain any of their dignity by improving the franchise and doing right by AC without dealing with all the backlash.



May this be a lesson to all developers: Never sell your ideas for quick cash or because thatís what the market wants. Because itís a dead-end, and once you realize that, you wonít be able to go back without dealing with all the ďtrashĒ that you attracted.



By the way, this isnít against you personally DemonLord4lf , Iím just disgusted at the so-called AC fans and gamers in general and at their lack of concern for games or good gameplay.

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 06:30 AM
Ugh, this is why you shouldn’t forfeit yourself. Ubisoft sold out right after AC1 and, with that, came a whole new crowd (just like they wanted). Well, problem is, this crowd wants the things that aren’t good for the franchise. They don’t care about the actual series. All they want is their mindless action and to be sugarcoated by games that treat them like babies while calling them “men”. Do they care that these things aren’t good for the franchise? That Assassin’s Creed can revolutionize gaming if only it stays true to its roots and pushes them to the limit? That AC is capable of so much better gameplay? No, all you care about is being a one-man-army and feeling good about yourself but, dare a game try to challenge you in the slightest or evolve in any way and we have a huge problem.
And now Ubisoft can’t go back or change course. Because, if they do that, this huge crowd they attracted, won’t let them: “But I want my mindless fun!”; “No naval?! The same boring core? Tsss, Ubisoft is milking this francise to the bones!”; etc.

Ubisoft brought this to themselves. They sold out and now they aren’t allowed to regain any of their dignity by improving the franchise and doing right by AC without dealing with all the backlash.



May this be a lesson to all developers: Never sell your ideas for quick cash or because that’s what the market wants. Because it’s a dead-end, and once you realize that, you won’t be able to go back without dealing with all the “trash” that you attracted.



By the way, this isn’t against you personally DemonLord4lf , I’m just disgusted at the so-called AC fans and gamers in general and at their lack of concern for games or good gameplay.

Hey, i'm not saying they should completely revert back to the old ways. Change is good, change also means Chaos. Which i like :D, anyways, i want a balance between this new combat system with the old one. I want to play a game i can enjoy. Right now i feel like throwing the controller across the room every time i get into a fight. Better counters, chain kills, counter kills. Maybe limit the amount that you can chain kills and/or counter kills. But dont get rid of them out right. Also, human shield should never have been gotten rid of. Its realistic and doesn't take away from the game.

DynaRider
01-14-2015, 06:52 AM
I've not been happy with the combat in Unity either. Too many times you're taken out during a fight by some unseen sniper or guard with a gun and all your work up to that point is suddenly lost. The air assassination is hit or miss and a lot of times Arno just knocks down the target and then must get into a sword fight with him. Jump on a sniper standing on a balcony and every time Arno will just knock him down and wait till he gets up to strike at him. That silly silhouette that Arno leaves when escaping or ducking into a hiding spot often gets in the way when trying to do a cover kill. A lot of times when trying to use a dart Arno's head will obscure the aiming point and you have to move around, often revealing yourself to use the darts. Speaking of the aiming point, that tiny white dot is difficult and sometimes impossible to see so you have to play around till you can spot it and try to guide it to a target. It is difficult to drop a smoke bomb in combat and a lot of times you have to push the button two or three times and suddenly Arno will drop two or three bombs at once. Speaking of smoke bombs.....Arno drops a smoke bomb and by the time he finishes his fancy smancy sword play on just one opponent the smoke has dissipated and he needs another one. Why can't he just whack an opponent a couple of times and be done with it?

Also have to put up with lousy camera movement in combat inside buildings. Makes combat difficult when you lose your opponents and trying to escape is not fun due to the constant camera swinging around and changing your view. I'm not too concerned with making combat a little harder but the system utilized in Unity will call up swear words I had long forgotten when you spend a half hour removing guards and snipers and then get jumped on by a hoard of fighters, quickly die and have to do it all over again.

AssassinHMS
01-14-2015, 06:52 AM
Hey, i'm not saying they should completely revert back to the old ways. Change is good, change also means Chaos. Which i like :D, anyways, i want a balance between this new combat system with the old one. I want to play a game i can enjoy. Right now i feel like throwing the controller across the room every time i get into a fight. Better counters, chain kills, counter kills. Maybe limit the amount that you can chain kills and/or counter kills. But dont get rid of them out right. Also, human shield should never have been gotten rid of. Its realistic and doesn't take away from the game.

But do you feel like throwing the controller because you find the combat too hard or because you think it’s “unfair” (as in, it’s not responsive enough, it doesn’t work properly, etc.)?
Because if the problem is that you find the combat simply too hard or unforgiving then there are a few things you can do:
- Upgrade Arno, and you can make combat a piece of cake like in older games;
- Practice and get better. After all, games are supposed to make players hone their skills and sweat a little because that’s healthy and that’s how games can be good for people. On the other hand, if they’re only there to make the player feel good about himself, then they’re a waste of potential and the player won’t evolve at all.
- If, after my previous advices, you still think the combat is too hard or you want it to be easier to suit your particular taste, then consider quitting the franchise. After all, you shouldn’t force the games to be dumbed down on a mere whim. If you aren’t willing to get better at AC’s combat in order to keep up with it then you clearly don’t love AC enough. It would be pretty darn selfish to force or even ask for the series to slow down in order to keep up with you, right?

And while human shield isn’t unrealistic at all, the way it was implemented in previous games, was (even more unrealistic than having no “human shield” option at all).
And I’m all for realism in games.

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 07:07 AM
I've not been happy with the combat in Unity either. Too many times you're taken out during a fight by some unseen sniper or guard with a gun and all your work up to that point is suddenly lost. The air assassination is hit or miss and a lot of times Arno just knocks down the target and then must get into a sword fight with him. Jump on a sniper standing on a balcony and every time Arno will just knock him down and wait till he gets up to strike at him. That silly silhouette that Arno leaves when escaping or ducking into a hiding spot often gets in the way when trying to do a cover kill. A lot of times when trying to use a dart Arno's head will obscure the aiming point and you have to move around, often revealing yourself to use the darts. Speaking of the aiming point, that tiny white dot is difficult and sometimes impossible to see so you have to play around till you can spot it and try to guide it to a target. It is difficult to drop a smoke bomb in combat and a lot of times you have to push the button two or three times and suddenly Arno will drop two or three bombs at once. Speaking of smoke bombs.....Arno drops a smoke bomb and by the time he finishes his fancy smancy sword play on just one opponent the smoke has dissipated and he needs another one. Why can't he just whack an opponent a couple of times and be done with it?

Also have to put up with lousy camera movement in combat inside buildings. Makes combat difficult when you lose your opponents and trying to escape is not fun due to the constant camera swinging around and changing your view. I'm not too concerned with making combat a little harder but the system utilized in Unity will call up swear words I had long forgotten when you spend a half hour removing guards and snipers and then get jumped on by a hoard of fighters, quickly die and have to do it all over again.

I wish i could've said that in the first place. You have stated everything that has been bugging me about this combat system.

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 07:12 AM
But do you feel like throwing the controller because you find the combat too hard or because you think itís ďunfairĒ (as in, itís not responsive enough, it doesnít work properly, etc.)?
Because if the problem is that you find the combat simply too hard or unforgiving then there are a few things you can do:
- Upgrade Arno, and you can make combat a piece of cake like in older games;
- Practice and get better. After all, games are supposed to make players hone their skills and sweat a little because thatís healthy and thatís how games can be good for people. On the other hand, if theyíre only there to make the player feel good about himself, then theyíre a waste of potential and the player wonít evolve at all.
- If, after my previous advices, you still think the combat is too hard or you want it to be easier to suit your particular taste, then consider quitting the franchise. After all, you shouldnít force the games to be dumbed down on a mere whim. If you arenít willing to get better at ACís combat in order to keep up with it then you clearly donít love AC enough. It would be pretty darn selfish to force or even ask for the series to slow down in order to keep up with you, right?

And while human shield isnít unrealistic at all, the way it was implemented in previous games, was (even more unrealistic than having no ďhuman shieldĒ option at all).
And Iím all for realism in games.

I have top tiered armor and weapon. And i wont leave this game because they decided to make a combat system that isn't fun. It was fun and working fine until now. Why should i leave because they screwed up?

AssassinHMS
01-14-2015, 07:29 AM
I have top tiered armor and weapon. And i wont leave this game because they decided to make a combat system that isn't fun. It was fun and working fine until now. Why should i leave because they screwed up?

Let's see. You don't find combat fun because you don't find challenge fun (judging from your previous posts). So basically, you want to be sugarcoated, you want to be a one-man-army because you find that fun.
That’s fine. You want to be entertained, that’s only normal. But, get this, you are asking for the combat to become easier and to be dumbed down for your OWN, personal enjoyment.
You need to realize what you are asking for. You’re asking for the games to be dumbed down, to slow down so that you can catch up to them while you should be the one, as a player, to be trying to improve yourself in order to catch up to the game. The game should force you to be better, it should challenge you. You shouldn’t ask for it to be easier. That’s SELFISH and you're being inconsiderate.
There are plenty of people that are already masters at Unity’s combat without ANY upgrades. Are they superior beings? No, they only tried harder and practiced. And that’s how it should be.
Besides, even if you still choose to ignore this once again, then keep this in mind. The game wants to put you in the shoes of an Assassin. An Assassin is NOT a one-man-army. An Assassin is not even a warrior.
The game gives you stealth and plenty of ways to avoid getting into conflicts that you can’t handle.

So, please, stop asking for the dumbing down of these games. Leave them alone. If you aren’t willing to become better or to accept the limitations of being an Assassin (and not a superhero), then quit the franchise. I actually worked hard enough to be good at AC. I practiced and spent hours, days, weeks, months and years playing AC. And I only needed the first few days to become good at it. Become a better gamer, evolve. Don’t ask for the games to become worse and easier for you.
And I love AC for what it is. I love being an Assassin in these games. If you don’t love being an Assassin and aren’t willing to deal with that fact or feel the NEED to be a one-man-army then, please, quit the series. Search for other games that suit you. DON’T force this franchise, that some people actually love, to change because you don’t like it. That’s just not nice.

Freyr1983
01-14-2015, 07:32 AM
I have top tiered armor and weapon. And i wont leave this game because they decided to make a combat system that isn't fun. It was fun and working fine until now. Why should i leave because they screwed up?

remember use strategy and tactics :) dun just rush in blindly as what i said earlier on.

Train more and you will find that the new combat system is not bad at all

DemonLord4lf
01-14-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm not asking them to dumb things down. Just asking them to return to the way things were, or find a balance so that people like me can still have fun while its still challenging.

AssassinHMS
01-14-2015, 07:54 AM
I'm not asking them to dumb things down. Just asking them to return to the way things were, or find a balance so that people like me can still have fun while its still challenging.

You’re contradicting yourself while ignoring my posts.
First you say that you don’t want things to be dumbed down but then you say that you want things to RETURN to the way they were in previous games. That’s a contradiction right there. Because combat, in previous games, is dumbed down, unrealistic and way easier when compared to the current combat system.

And I already said this more than once but I’ll repeat myself once again. You say you want to find a balance, that you still want to have fun while keeping the combat challenging. Problem is, what you don’t find to be fun is challenge itself. Like you said, among other things, you want to be a one-man-army. How’s that remotely challenging? I realize that we don’t have the same definition of challenging here. However that shouldn’t keep you from understanding that the problem is EXCLUSIVELY on your end. YOU are the one that needs to get better if you want to enjoy the games from now on. The games SHOULD NOT become easier so that you can enjoy them, that’s not how games work. You are the player. You are supposed to keep up, to practice and get better.
You CANNOT ask for the games to become easier. If you can only enjoy AC when you’re a one-man-army, then you shouldn’t be playing it at all, because they are not supposed to make you a one-man-army but an Assassin instead, a human. That’s the goal of the game.
If you don’t like or can’t enjoy that goal and, consecutively, the game, then you should quit. You search for other games that suit your taste. What you don’t do, is to ask for this game to become like the others, to become easier, to suit your OWN personal demands.
So, either accept Ac for what it is and learn to like it, or don’t and go somewhere else.

Freyr1983
01-14-2015, 08:09 AM
You’re contradicting yourself while ignoring my posts.
First you say that you don’t want things to be dumbed down but then you say that you want things to RETURN to the way they were in previous games. That’s a contradiction right there. Because combat, in previous games, is dumbed down, unrealistic and way easier when compared to the current combat system.

And I already said this more than once but I’ll repeat myself once again. You say you want to find a balance, that you still want to have fun while keeping the combat challenging. Problem is, what you don’t find to be fun is challenge itself. Like you said, among other things, you want to be a one-man-army. How’s that remotely challenging? I realize that we don’t have the same definition of challenging here. However that shouldn’t keep you from understanding that the problem is EXCLUSIVELY on your end. YOU are the one that needs to get better if you want to enjoy the games from now on. The games SHOULD NOT become easier so that you can enjoy them, that’s not how games work. You are the player. You are supposed to keep up, to practice and get better.
You CANNOT ask for the games to become easier. If you can only enjoy AC when you’re a one-man-army, then you shouldn’t be playing it at all, because they are not supposed to make you a one-man-army but an Assassin instead, a human. That’s the goal of the game.
If you don’t like or can’t enjoy that goal and, consecutively, the game, then you should quit. You search for other games that suit your taste. What you don’t do, is to ask for this game to become like the others, to become easier, to suit your OWN personal demands.
So, either accept Ac for what it is and learn to like it, or don’t and go somewhere else.

Cool down man relax D:

AssassinHMS
01-14-2015, 08:14 AM
Cool down man relax D:
Hahah, I'm totally relaxed dude. I’m putting some effort in this discussion because I know from experience that, without that effort, I'd have no chance to get a point across. But I do realize that it does make me sound somewhat angry or overly excited…well I guess that’s the downside.

Liquid_Sun1
01-14-2015, 09:19 AM
I've been hearing this complaint quite a bit. Not sure if I'm crazy or what but I feel like the combat is still extremely easy. Even with lower tier gear, the combat is never frustrating. I still feel like a one man army and can take out a group of 10 guards without dying and this is even without using smoke bombs.

The only thing I'll agree with is that combat is a bit slower and not as flashy. I like combat the way it is now, however, bring back some of the speed and flashiness would be nice. Just don't over do it on the insta-kills and infinite counters.

RzaRecta357
01-14-2015, 10:42 AM
Ugh, you can see the guys aiming with the red bar around you. Throw a smoke bomb or do some rolls. Air assinate isn't hit or miss.. You're just not doing it good enough. If they see you.. you get into combat and can't just take them out. If you can't see the little dot try holding R2 so the full crosshair comes up. You don't ever need this as quickshot is good enough unless you want a headshot.

The shade left by Arno when vanishing being in your way for a cover kill is again all on you. It's transparent and not that hard to figure out especially with eagle vision on.

It's MUCH MUCH better now. They should bring back Human shields, hand to hand and maybe AC1 styled hidden blade combat. That'd be great.

Otherwise it's mainly user error. Like one of the first idiotic reviews I read for the game on release. Buddy says it tells you to hit L2 to get in a window which I never needed to do! Then like 4 lines down he says Arno never gets into the window for him correctly. Uhhh DURR!! L2 slaps you in from any angle!

User error.

Also TC, I don't know if anyone answered you but the combat is so different in ROGUE because they're using the old engine with Altairs modified skeleton and animations. Evident by the shoulder sway they all have. I'm sure they've seen me mention it here MANY times over the many years I've been posting now and have tried to hide it with Edward but you still see it and Shay does it too.

Anyway, super new engine with much less time to play. Now with Victory they have the engine in place and know what we like and don't like. We'll see where that goes.

Fatal-Feit
01-14-2015, 11:49 AM
Combat have always been terrible. At least it got some difficulty now.

Sejdovic11
01-14-2015, 02:52 PM
For me it's cool that combat got a little more challenging, it was too easy when you would just counter your opponents and that's it. But I don't care about combat too much to be honest, I always play AC stealthy, if I get into the conflict during the mission I restart the mission. AC should be stealth based game, and to be honest in Unity there is a lot of broken stealth mechanics. They went to the right direction with AC:U, but it was not executed well.

They need to improve on cover system, I mean what kind of assassin can't move around the corner without leaving your cover? Or can't move from cover to cover. Just take out cover system from W_D for example or from Splinter Cell and put it in AC, it works fine with W_D and Splinter Cell, why is that such a big problem?

We need something to be able to attract enemies. A some kind of noise would do it (whistle, rock throwing, etc...) would be perfect. Cherry bombs work, but if you want to attract only one enemy it's not working, because you attract a whole group of them.

Human shield must be returned if you are going to put those gun slingers in the game. I mean why would you remove that in the first place? Every enemy just pulls out his gun on you, and you can just roll around like some dude on some good ecstasy.

But I'm happy to see that they finally concentrated on stealth, I hope that they'll improve stealth mechanics on the next AC even though that I won't pre-order it, they ****ed it up with Unity so hard on release that I don't trust them.

Take care!

rrebe
01-14-2015, 03:10 PM
I felt combat was too easy in previous games, I like that there's at least some challenge now and a real danger of desyncing if not planning your moves and really paying attention. I probably wouldn't like Unity as much as I do if the combat was too easy (=boring). Vive la rťvolution de combattre!

Megas_Doux
01-14-2015, 03:35 PM
I like the direction combat had in Unity, for the first time EVER in this franchise there is some challenge and dont get me wrong, it can be improved aside from the performance aspects:


Hidden blade Combat????? Yes! Even though I NEVER use it because I consider that having thin, 20 cms long blade as the most powerful/versatile in the game to a point to parry an axe is not only overpowered but also far fetched. Again, yes! but with minimal stats.

Human shield????? I dont like it, but if anything, I would include it once the guards are nearly dead.

Fist combat? There are silent takedowns in Unity...I have the same opinion as with the hidden blade: Yes but with minimal stats.

DynaRider
01-14-2015, 04:45 PM
I wonder how difficult it would be for the coders to program in a "difficulty" level selection. Not all of us are blessed with lightning reflexes and I imagine a lot would enjoy the game much more if we could select a little less demanding and complicated game play. An easy level could limit the number of attacking guards and limit their combat capabilities while an expert level could ramp things up to satisfy those who desire more challenge. Old age is beginning to take it's toll on my abilities but I have enjoyed all of the AC series due in part to the easier combat requirements. Unity though has severely tested my FTL (frustration tolerance level) and although I have completed it once it was far from 100%.

Hans684
01-14-2015, 05:44 PM
I've always avoided combat as much as possible in AC, fighting wether difficult or not is just boring. So I don't care if the combat is broken or not, I'd rather not use it at all(expect in times highly depended like story and era).

xPLAY3R1x
01-14-2015, 08:47 PM
The only frustrating part of combat... and this goes for Arno's movements in general... Is there is a one to two second delay AFTER you press a button. This is why he won't immediately drop a smoke bomb and you have to double tap it, but seconds later he'll drop two in quick succession. Same thing goes for the Quickshot for the hidden blade. It doesn't fire as fast as you can hit the left shoulder; It fires a single blade after a one to two second delay.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this?

There is definitely some kind of input lag going on and combat is where you can see/feel it the most because combat is a life or death (pun intended) situation where response time needs to be spot on to perform counters and attacks.

The input delay also extends to the general movement of Arno in the world, too.

He can be running along a roof top and hit a wall, you tap the "A" button (XB1) and he should jump up and continue on... like in previous AC games.... Except he doesn't. He'll come to a halt. Thus, you have to double tap the jump button again in order for him to actually jump up and continue climbing.This ruins the rhythm of the Parkour compared to previous games.

Then there is the Stealth mechanics which are very clunky and coupled with the input delay often exposes Arno and gets him into fights he could normally avoid if the controls were more responsive e.g. You want to drop down from a ledge and go into cover behind a box, but because of the input delay you're already done double tapping buttons and pulling the left trigger, yet Arno is about two moves behind meaning the guard you were trying to evade sees Arno because his animations didn't sync fas enough to duck behind the box.

The one way this could be fixed is if they ran the game at 60fps, but they can barely hit 30 across all platforms, so there is no real fix, I guess?

buzbuz33
01-14-2015, 10:54 PM
To the OP, I like trying to be stealthy. But if I screw up, I have had no problem killing loads of people - the only requirement is an ample supply of smoke bombs and other distractions. You can even use poison gas to kill a bunch around you, as long as you remember to restore your own health. It helps that, after a fight you can head to the nearest merchant to restock without disrupting the mission.
To DMoudry74, I have had the same problem with lag. I guess their idea is that you are not actually pushing keys to fight or run, but pushing keys to tell him how to fight or run. So there is a lag between the command and the execution. However, sometimes, you are not sure he has "heard" you. Hence the double smoke bombs.
And there are some things I wish he would do better. For example, I wish he would not feel compelled to climb every chimney flue, but go around them, like he does with tree branches.

ShoryukenMan
01-14-2015, 10:54 PM
I'm not too fond of the new combat system either. There's definitely some sort of input lag. It wouldn't be so bad if Arno could actually block, though. Unless I'm doing something wrong, the only way I can defend myself in combat is by trying to counter their attacks. In the older games, you could at least block. Just give me the ability to block and bring back the human shield for Victory, and everything else can remain the same. It was incredibly frustrating being killed by enemies off screen because a few of them want to shoot me. Maybe pan the camera out a little more so I can see everyone I'm in a fight with. It's kind of hard to pay attention to everyone's counter signals or shooting signals when you've got a bunch of enemies surrounding you in super close up combat.

That being said, I definitely do miss chain killing. It was sooooooo fun.

xPLAY3R1x
01-15-2015, 01:14 AM
I think the input lag is because the engine is trying to do too much... Which is why it can't even maintain 30fps in huge crowds.

Part of this is because (on consoles) the AMD processor is too weak (not fast enough) to process those thousands of draw calls for the NPC crowds and send them to the GPU. Then we have the threaded AI for all the NPCs on screen, too. So, the processor is probably being flooded and doing the best it can which translates into delayed action/reaction?

However, the input lags on PC as well. This is where it's even more noticeable since you can play ACU at as many frames as your CPU and GPU can render. I have an i7 and GTX 770 4GB VRAM card and I still have the input lag even at 45-50fps.

Freyr1983
01-15-2015, 02:56 AM
glad that counter kill is no more in unity. cause counter kills make the combat in assassin creed easy x_x

Fatal-Feit
01-15-2015, 05:28 AM
Improved difficulty aside, Unity's combat could use some major tweaking.

* Take out automatic sheathing! The AI has terrible tracking. Roll or tread behind a small box and Arno will put away his weapon and then they get a free hit or shot. And why should Arno sheath his weapon when he's in high profile? That makes no sense. He'd put away his weapon when when you try to run towards an enemy during combat. WDF

* Take out automatic combat. It was fine in the Kenway Saga, but you're forced to unsheathe your weapon in Unity. It takes away player's control and immersion, IMO.

* Some way of dodging bullets. The only way to dodge a bullet would be throwing down a smoke bomb or evading when you're in combat mode. Give us the dodge roll in Rogue.

* Take out the red waves when performing a heavy attack. It looks ridiculous in Unity. Make it like AC1.

DemonLord4lf
01-15-2015, 11:20 PM
Im glad to see i wasn't the only one who thought the combat was whacked. Though i do agree, perhaps i was being a bit selfish asking for it to be returned to previous versions. However, the way it is in this game makes it frustrating at times. Perhaps it was the lag, i mostly believe it was the fact that everyone had a gun and could kill you in 2 shots -_-

That being said, no matter how much we all whine and complain, it's still Ubisoft's game and they can do whatever they want in it. I just hope they figure out a good balance for combat vs stealth. I like doing stealth here and there, but i felt that i was being punished for not going down that road. To me this game has always been about freedom of choice. Do you want to be a stealthy assassin or a "guns blazing" assassin. To force the player to pick one over the other ruins the game to me, imo.

topeira1980
01-16-2015, 12:27 AM
i dont think its selfish to wish for the older combat system, just as it isnt selfish to wish the next AC games would use the current one. its each man with what HE wishes for and there are plenty of ppl who liked the older system more.



BUT i do agree that all AC games before unity were catering to little girls and babies, as far as im concerned (sorry for being harsh. i just cant shake the memory of yawning in ACIV while fighting and literally taking my eyes off screen to talk to my girlfriend and still not dying in combat). combat was shallow simplistic unbalanced mess. it provided tools\features SO powerful that nothing else in the game was needed - the counter kills and chain kills were basically almost all u needed. why would i be stealthy? why would i upgrade my assassins? whould should i earn money? why should i use guns? nothing was needed because using counter kills was all i ever needed. combat was just a matter of B, X or A, X, X, X. that's it. thats all it took to kill 30 guards. counter then kill or disarm then attack a couple of times. and people call that good and want this BS back?!

my god. mind blown.

AssassinHMS is saying exacly what im thinking - ACU isnt harder than most games. it just isnt like older AC games in that sense that it actually requires you to bloody try. in no AC game i ever felt the tension of being close to losing. UBI tried SO hard to not hurt my feelings by letting me, god forbid, die once in a while, that they made everything so shallow and easy that they hurt my feelings because i felt they were treating my like a little incapable child.

UBI - thank you for stepping up your game with UNITY.

there are so many tips that can help you do better in UNITY to make combat easier.
see if this helps:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/994333-Small-gameplay-tips-from-the-community-to-AC-U?p=10512962

regarding the responsiveness - i dont know what you are talking about. the only issue with responsiveness i encountered is that sometimes, during an attempt to run away from being seen i get caught on some low obstacle or wall and even by holding RT+B it takes a second too long to drop. everything else isnt lag - its realism. the reason sometimes it takes me a second or two to drop smoke is because arno is in a middle of doing something else, like parrying, rolling, or being hit. if i can get half a second when i am NOT attacked than he drops a smoke immediately. but if im fighting a large crowd and constantly parrying than its harder to get that half a second to pop smoke.

the meat shield is the least realistic thing in ACs combat. why would an enemy with a 3 feet long sword allow my to get so close to him to grab him? the point in long weapons like swords (not to mention spears) is to keep the enemy away. and if the assassins can already grab the enemy whenever he bloody pleases to use him as a shield than why wouldnt he just slice his throat if he's at it? and if the assassin can garb any enemy whenever he wants and slit his throat whenever he wants than why doesnt he rule the world with his magical ability to control men with the power of just grabbing them whenever he effing wants with no resistence? why would he need the stupid apple of eden if he can get supposedly trained me to act like idiots just so he can feel cool?

having trouble in combat? -
upgrade your health, buy the healing skill, buy the most damaging weapon you can (Save money for one good weapon instead of buying a lot of weaker ones) and use a lot of Heavy attacks.
(oh yeah - buy the heavy attack skill and the fatal strike skill after sequence 9, when u get there). play co-op missions (even alone) and SP missions to get skill points to unlock the skills you need.

look for the glowing crosshair to know when to roll. i dont think its that hard. if you catch yourself in the middle of a finisher jwhen u get shot than i suggest you dont finish your enemies if they are staggering helplessly. live them to drop dead on their own. snipers are killing you? how about killing them before going down to street level? too many enemies bunched up together but you really really wanna kill them all? throw smoke into them BEFORE they notice you and draw their weapon and quick kill 3 or 4 of them inside the smoke.

and you dont need to LEAVE cover in order to move forward. you press forward and hold A and you go around the cover and leave it automatically.

i think that 90% of the combat system in unity is perfectly fine and dandy and the games gives you everything you need to handle anything, but you simply need to learn the system. dont blame the game. blame UBI for treating you like children up until now - dulling your reflexes and will to actually learn the depths of a game.
i think there are a lot of strategies ppl can make up for unity or learn from others. there is no need for strategies in older ACs because you didnt need them. embrace the change. dont fight it.

ACU has a different combat system, new stealth system and new free running system and i think all three are a HUGE step forward but all of them require you LEARN them and get better at them. the new free running system, with the run UP and run DOWN gives me so much more control over where im heading. combine that with the ability to tap A to jump - i can really chose which rooftop to jump for, and i think i have fallen to my death only twice in my 100 hours of game time.

no doubt that the cover system needs to be more reliable and bringing the near-perfect cover system and cover movement from W_D is a good idea, but its better than before.

to sum things up - there is nothing wrong with the combat system. it isnt really broken, as far as i can see (there is the well known issue with sheathing the weapon in the middle, as said before, and rarely the parry button doesnt register, but that is pretty rare).its just different. the enemies are not as binary and shallow as before. you just need to understand the game. understand how the enemies behave and how many of them u can handle. beyond that - fight the urge to kill them all immediately and pop a smoke, run, hide, let them lose track of you and get back to their posts and try again.

AssassinHMS
01-16-2015, 01:19 AM
i dont think its selfish to wish for the older combat system, just as it isnt selfish to wish the next AC games would use the current one. its each man with what HE wishes for and there are plenty of ppl who liked the older system more.

I donít disagree with anything in your post but I just want to clear something up:
I donít think the simple act of asking for one combat format to replace another is selfish, or else I would be completely selfish as well, not to mention, hypocritical.
What I consider to be an act of selfishness, in this case, is asking for EASIER combat. So why isnít asking for harder combat selfish as well? Well, let me explain.
When I ask for harder combat, I donít do that simply because I personally desire to be challenged in AC games. When I ask for challenging combat, I do it because I am convinced it is good FOR THE GAME (for core balance). Because my brain tells me that, if the combat in AC allows (or, even worse, forces) the player to be a one-man-army it will HURT the other core mechanics SEVERELY. I am not asking for this on a whim, I am doing it because I BELIEVE it will improve the gameplay, it will help the games get better.
On the other hand and according to what I gathered, when he asks for easier combat (in this case the previous combat system) and for the ability to be a one-man-army with or without upgrades, he isnít doing it with the gameís interests in mind. He is asking for that for his own PERSONAL reasons, even if the game suffers because of them. That is SELFISH.

But it gets worse.

A game is fundamentally a challenge. The player is the one set to overcome that challenge (whatever it or they may be). That means that, by the end of the game, the player will rise better and more skilled than before he ever grabbed the game. The game helped the player evolve. That is how games work. That is one of the reasons they are beneficial to people.
And that is why he shouldnít be asking for easier games. He isnít asking that because he CANíT beat the game. He is asking that because he wants to FEEL over-the-top. Itís universally known that ACís combat is easy. Itís not that he isnít capable of getting good at it. Itís just that he wants it to be handed to him. Thatís bad. But thatís bad FOR HIM. Asking for the games to change in order to suit this little whim of his IS BAD FOR US ALL.
Why doesnít he practice and get good at it? The game even offers upgrades. The game even allows him to be overpowered if he works for it. But he still says he has trouble, that he isnít a one-man-army like he wants to, like in previous AC games.
Well, thatís his problem because he is the one who is expected to get better, we are not supposed to get worse or dumber because of a whim of his. Thatís ANTI GAMING. That goes against what gaming is.
And, as if all of this wasnít enough, thereís one more thing I have to say. Being a one-man-army should not be allowed in AC games. Why? Because you are supposed to be an Assassin, not someone with super-powers, not even a warrior. And I could go on and explain why it also hurts the game as a whole but honestly Iím a little bit tired.

And, guess what, I didnít write all this with ďMEMEMEĒ in mind, I wrote it because I like Assassinís Creed (what it is, not what I want it to be and not what it became known for). I wrote this because I truly think itís good for the franchise, for the fans and for gamers in general. I wrote it with AC in mind and not with my personal selfish agenda. I will never ask for games to be easier even if I suck balls while playing them. Why? Because Iím not that selfish, I will try to get better and I will not ask for a game to change its nature and be dumbed down for my casual amusement.





Note: I am not angry or upset, by the way, even if it sounds that way.

DemonLord4lf
01-16-2015, 01:31 AM
I just finished dead kings dlc and i do believe they really are just toying with us now -_-. I asked for the old combat system to be brought back or at least modified so combat can be fun again, but instead they just made all the enemies extremely weak... thats not what i wanted... i wanted to feel like a master swordsmen fighting his way through a battalion of soldiers. Not some mindless drone that can swat insects left and right...

AssassinHMS
01-16-2015, 01:39 AM
I just finished dead kings dlc and i do believe they really are just toying with us now -_-. I asked for the old combat system to be brought back or at least modified so combat can be fun again, but instead they just made all the enemies extremely weak... thats not what i wanted... i wanted to feel like a master swordsmen fighting his way through a battalion of soldiers. Not some mindless drone that can swat insects left and right...

Wait there a moment. You say you want to fight your way through a battalion of soldiers. You said you couldn't do that in Unity because they changed the combat and, among other things, made it harder. Even fully upgraded, you said you still weren't a one-man-army.
And I quote you:

I used to be able to take on an entire army and now i cant even take out a handful of guys without being killed.

Dead Kings made enemies weaker like you asked for. The only thing they didn't do was to change the way it worked. So why do you say you don't want to be a mindless drone that can swat insects left and right? That's what you were asking for just before.

DemonLord4lf
01-16-2015, 01:44 AM
Wait there a moment. You say you want to fight your way through a battalion of soldiers. You said you couldn't do that in Unity because they changed the combat and, among other things, made it harder. Even fully upgraded, you said you still weren't a one-man-army.
And I quote you:


Dead Kings made combat easier like you asked for. The only thing they didn't do was to change the way it worked. So why do you say you don't want to be a mindless drone that can swat insects left and right? That's what you were asking for just before.

True... thats how i felt when i wrote that... but i've come to realize thats not what i really want for this game. I want to be able to feel like a master swordsmen fighting his way through a battalion. The combat system in Unity makes me feel like an amatuar trying to fight.

AssassinHMS
01-16-2015, 01:46 AM
True... thats how i felt when i wrote that... but i've come to realize thats not what i really want for this game. I want to be able to feel like a master swordsmen fighting his way through a battalion. The combat system in Unity makes me feel like an amatuar trying to fight.

Ah, so you changed your mind. Why do you say Unity makes you feel like an amateur trying to fight?

Edit: Wait, it just hit me. You still want to be able to fight through a battalion... No master swordsman can do that. Only a super hero. And an Assassin TYPICALLY isn't a master swordsman, they specialize on stealth. Combat is usually a last resort. I guess the game could still allow you to become a master swordsman if you spent all your upgrades on combat though.

Freyr1983
01-16-2015, 04:11 AM
i dont think its selfish to wish for the older combat system, just as it isnt selfish to wish the next AC games would use the current one. its each man with what HE wishes for and there are plenty of ppl who liked the older system more.



BUT i do agree that all AC games before unity were catering to little girls and babies, as far as im concerned (sorry for being harsh. i just cant shake the memory of yawning in ACIV while fighting and literally taking my eyes off screen to talk to my girlfriend and still not dying in combat). combat was shallow simplistic unbalanced mess. it provided tools\features SO powerful that nothing else in the game was needed - the counter kills and chain kills were basically almost all u needed. why would i be stealthy? why would i upgrade my assassins? whould should i earn money? why should i use guns? nothing was needed because using counter kills was all i ever needed. combat was just a matter of B, X or A, X, X, X. that's it. thats all it took to kill 30 guards. counter then kill or disarm then attack a couple of times. and people call that good and want this BS back?!

my god. mind blown.

AssassinHMS is saying exacly what im thinking - ACU isnt harder than most games. it just isnt like older AC games in that sense that it actually requires you to bloody try. in no AC game i ever felt the tension of being close to losing. UBI tried SO hard to not hurt my feelings by letting me, god forbid, die once in a while, that they made everything so shallow and easy that they hurt my feelings because i felt they were treating my like a little incapable child.

UBI - thank you for stepping up your game with UNITY.

there are so many tips that can help you do better in UNITY to make combat easier.
see if this helps:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/994333-Small-gameplay-tips-from-the-community-to-AC-U?p=10512962

regarding the responsiveness - i dont know what you are talking about. the only issue with responsiveness i encountered is that sometimes, during an attempt to run away from being seen i get caught on some low obstacle or wall and even by holding RT+B it takes a second too long to drop. everything else isnt lag - its realism. the reason sometimes it takes me a second or two to drop smoke is because arno is in a middle of doing something else, like parrying, rolling, or being hit. if i can get half a second when i am NOT attacked than he drops a smoke immediately. but if im fighting a large crowd and constantly parrying than its harder to get that half a second to pop smoke.

the meat shield is the least realistic thing in ACs combat. why would an enemy with a 3 feet long sword allow my to get so close to him to grab him? the point in long weapons like swords (not to mention spears) is to keep the enemy away. and if the assassins can already grab the enemy whenever he bloody pleases to use him as a shield than why wouldnt he just slice his throat if he's at it? and if the assassin can garb any enemy whenever he wants and slit his throat whenever he wants than why doesnt he rule the world with his magical ability to control men with the power of just grabbing them whenever he effing wants with no resistence? why would he need the stupid apple of eden if he can get supposedly trained me to act like idiots just so he can feel cool?

having trouble in combat? -
upgrade your health, buy the healing skill, buy the most damaging weapon you can (Save money for one good weapon instead of buying a lot of weaker ones) and use a lot of Heavy attacks.
(oh yeah - buy the heavy attack skill and the fatal strike skill after sequence 9, when u get there). play co-op missions (even alone) and SP missions to get skill points to unlock the skills you need.

look for the glowing crosshair to know when to roll. i dont think its that hard. if you catch yourself in the middle of a finisher jwhen u get shot than i suggest you dont finish your enemies if they are staggering helplessly. live them to drop dead on their own. snipers are killing you? how about killing them before going down to street level? too many enemies bunched up together but you really really wanna kill them all? throw smoke into them BEFORE they notice you and draw their weapon and quick kill 3 or 4 of them inside the smoke.

and you dont need to LEAVE cover in order to move forward. you press forward and hold A and you go around the cover and leave it automatically.

i think that 90% of the combat system in unity is perfectly fine and dandy and the games gives you everything you need to handle anything, but you simply need to learn the system. dont blame the game. blame UBI for treating you like children up until now - dulling your reflexes and will to actually learn the depths of a game.
i think there are a lot of strategies ppl can make up for unity or learn from others. there is no need for strategies in older ACs because you didnt need them. embrace the change. dont fight it.

ACU has a different combat system, new stealth system and new free running system and i think all three are a HUGE step forward but all of them require you LEARN them and get better at them. the new free running system, with the run UP and run DOWN gives me so much more control over where im heading. combine that with the ability to tap A to jump - i can really chose which rooftop to jump for, and i think i have fallen to my death only twice in my 100 hours of game time.

no doubt that the cover system needs to be more reliable and bringing the near-perfect cover system and cover movement from W_D is a good idea, but its better than before.

to sum things up - there is nothing wrong with the combat system. it isnt really broken, as far as i can see (there is the well known issue with sheathing the weapon in the middle, as said before, and rarely the parry button doesnt register, but that is pretty rare).its just different. the enemies are not as binary and shallow as before. you just need to understand the game. understand how the enemies behave and how many of them u can handle. beyond that - fight the urge to kill them all immediately and pop a smoke, run, hide, let them lose track of you and get back to their posts and try again.

that is what i also think about too.

the combat in unity is so much better now . required you to use some strategy and planning. ex : like clearing snipers 1st before going down to street level.

Freyr1983
01-16-2015, 04:13 AM
The only weapon i need to master is the heavy weapon section D:

DemonLord4lf
01-16-2015, 04:22 AM
The only weapon i need to master is the heavy weapon section D:

lol, this guy has all the answers. I've been doing the combat all wrong then lol

Freyr1983
01-16-2015, 04:25 AM
lol, this guy has all the answers. I've been doing the combat all wrong then lol

learn to play like an assassin and you will find it more fun and challenging better than a warrior or master swordman.

And yes i am bad in using heavy weapon D:

DemonLord4lf
01-16-2015, 04:33 AM
learn to play like an assassin and you will find it more fun and challenging better than a warrior or master swordman.

And yes i am bad in using heavy weapon D:

I've been thinking about that... if this game is suppose to be all about stealth, why is there such a wide arrange of weapons? If its suppose to be a stealth game, why would they have so many weapons that are meant for combat? Its as if they're saying you can be either a stealthy assassin or a gung-ho assassin, but we really want you to be a stealthy assassin, so we're going to make the enemy swarm you every time you get into combat :D. I mean i know there's more characters in the town because of the new engine, but come on!!! Sometimes it feels like i really am fighting the entire army... I dont care how good you are at this new combat system, there's no way you can fight your way out of that.

Anyways, i'm done ranting about this... I knew they're would be others who enjoyed it, but i wanted to vent about it anyways. So that's all i gotta say.

Freyr1983
01-16-2015, 05:14 AM
I've been thinking about that... if this game is suppose to be all about stealth, why is there such a wide arrange of weapons? If its suppose to be a stealth game, why would they have so many weapons that are meant for combat? Its as if they're saying you can be either a stealthy assassin or a gung-ho assassin, but we really want you to be a stealthy assassin, so we're going to make the enemy swarm you every time you get into combat :D. I mean i know there's more characters in the town because of the new engine, but come on!!! Sometimes it feels like i really am fighting the entire army... I dont care how good you are at this new combat system, there's no way you can fight your way out of that.

Anyways, i'm done ranting about this... I knew they're would be others who enjoyed it, but i wanted to vent about it anyways. So that's all i gotta say.

if there entire army surrounding me. i use smoke bomb to escape and hide . you are right as there no way i can go against entire army.

well combat is only the last resort . so likewise you can use any type of weapon.

I like the weapons from dead king especially Guillotine Gun :D

topeira1980
01-16-2015, 09:18 AM
assassinHMS - i agree with everything you said. Bare in mind that not every gamer wants to improve or be challenged. my G\F plays candy crush. you think she wants to be challenged? no. she just wants to slash some candy and silly fish and whatnot. some ppl want to turn their brains off and just.... run through a game. thats what EASY SETTINGS is for and it's there for a reason.
sadly AC never had difficulty settings (god knows why) but at least ACU allows you to NOT upgrade stuff and maintain the challenge.
all in all i am 100% with you. if you read that too-long-of-a-post i made in 5th page than you know that. what AC needs is what UNITY gives it. preaching to the choir, brother.

Unity supposed open combat. sure it does. there was a lot of work put into the new combat system.
it supports arno openly fighting.... roughly 5 enemies. probably no more. at least not through the first half until you upgrade yourself.

demonlord4lf - i LOVE combat. i prefer combat to stealth. i find it more satisfying to kill an enemy in an open fight than to stab him from the back when he cant see me coming. (and because of that i love UNITY - satisfaction). but in Unity i find it hard to fight more than 4 or 5 enemies at the same time (with my arno, who only has one health upgrade, even by the end of the game). so what do i do if i cant take more than 4 or 5 enemies yet there are 10 enemies guarding that room i wanna go in? i use stealth until i dwindle the numbers to 4 or 5. i kill with the phantom blade a guard or two, sneak on another guard or two, and the just jump in front of the remaining fools and say "lets dance!" :) that's how i get to be and assassin AND a warrior and survive and have fun.
in heist missions that i play solo i almost never get bonus money. why? because i intentionally go into combat because its so much fun. i just try and get into combat on my own terms. if i ever go over my head - poof! smoke and i disappear.

and this makes a lot of sense to me. think of most of the movies where you saw a really good swordsman fighting numerous enemies in some really cool fighting scene than it was most likely 1VS4 or 1VS5, give or take. not 1VS20 like in previous AC games. unless the movie was about a super hero master fantastic mega magical samurai. but AC is not about a fantasy universe. you wanna mow through hundreds of fows? play shadow of mordor. THERE it DOES fit that you kill 50 enemies by the end of the game. but AC is somewhat realistic and in a somewhat realistic universe even in movies the hero relies on realistic tactics and fighting against a handful of enemies can almost make sense, if he's really good.

there is an AC movie coming in 22016. if in that movie im gonna see the hero would sneak around and try not to be seen to kill his target, then he kills him in a very satisfying cool air assassination or what not but discovered and then surrounded by 30 guards yet he kills them all and escapes (like you can do in the older games) im gonna be shouting at the screen: "than why were you sneaking in in the first place if you were never in real danger?!". to me that's like the huge eagles in lord of the rings\hobbit movies - these guys can save the heroes whenever they call them, and they CAN call them - so why did i watch 9 hours of movies when the heros could have flown there on the eagles in the first place?

i think the new combat could use more moves and better balance. the heavy attack is really over powered, meat shields could be re-introduced in a different way that requires skill to use, not willy nilly, maybe even HB combat, and other moves can be introduces by holding two buttons at the same time (like left trigger + face button, or A+X or B+Y, like in the arkham games), but over all i am really afraid UBI is going to fear their challenge-hatings fans will desert them after facing a challenge in Unity and they are going to introduce a reversed combat in Victory.

AssassinHMS
01-16-2015, 04:37 PM
assassinHMS - i agree with everything you said. Bare in mind that not every gamer wants to improve or be challenged. my G\F plays candy crush. you think she wants to be challenged? no. she just wants to slash some candy and silly fish and whatnot. some ppl want to turn their brains off and just.... run through a game. thats what EASY SETTINGS is for and it's there for a reason.
sadly AC never had difficulty settings (god knows why) but at least ACU allows you to NOT upgrade stuff and maintain the challenge.
all in all i am 100% with you. if you read that too-long-of-a-post i made in 5th page than you know that. what AC needs is what UNITY gives it. preaching to the choir, brother.

Sure, I know not everyone desires challenge every day. I sometimes play less demanding games with zero to no challenge. That’s totally fine.

What I’m not ok with is this “need” for EVERY game to be like that. Assassin’s Creed is not meant to be like that as we both know. That’s why we ask, among other things, for a more challenging combat – because we are thinking about the game, we are defending the game’s interests.
On the other hand, all these people who clearly don’t give two cents about AC, are asking for what suits them without the least concern for what their demands would do to the game as a whole. They are being selfish and they shouldn’t deserve to be called gamers because they are doing a disservice to us all.

And, theoretically speaking, I’m against an easy setting in AC games. Why? Because these games aren’t supposed to appeal to casuals. Not every game needs to offer casuals what they want. AC is meant to be challenging. Period. If they don’t like it, then they should look for something else (after all, the market has them completely covered nowadays). But instead, what do they do? They ask and demand that Ubisoft makes AC for them. I sometimes feel like punching them in the face, truth be told. Because they shouldn’t be allowed to force games to change their nature in order to become another mindless casual adventure like every other game out there.
But, guess what, I bet whatever you want, that the next AC games will offer easier combat and will be dumbed down for these people who don’t care about the franchise. That’s how Ubisoft works (they don’t stand their ground and they never resist the market’s pressure as we’ve come to see since AC1). And that’s why, in reality, I’m not against difficulty settings. I’d be a fool if I believed Ubisoft would ditch casual fans in favor of those that actually respect Assassin’s Creed, so difficulty levels is probably the best outcome I can hope for.

And it’s a ****ing shame. Because good games could come out of this franchise. But no. Because most gamers these days are against the most fundamental concepts of gaming (rising challenge for example) we, the real gamers, hardly get to see any good games, only tours or mindless casual titles…


And this is why, despite all the online stuff and microtransactions, Unity is the AC game that I RESPECT the most, after AC1 (because, for once, the developers respected AC even if just a little bit).

VestigialLlama4
01-16-2015, 08:27 PM
But, guess what, I bet whatever you want, that the next AC games will offer easier combat and will be dumbed down for these people who don’t care about the franchise.

I think they developed assets so that it lasts a while so I think the combat will stay the same with some slight tweaks at most. In any case, the "harder" combat was the least of Unity's concerns.

Speaking personally, I think AC games are about the guerrilla fantasy of hit and run so theoretically, having an Assassin be a super-fighter who can walk with nimbleness despite bearing heavy armor (as in the Ezio games) is ridiculous and I am all for combat being made difficult or challenging so that you can defeat combat by thinking like an Assassin, using tools (smoke bombs) or the environment (in AC1, I would draw them to the roof and use the limited space to my advantage) and generally taking the stealthy route without being told to do so.

However, there's also the question of final purpose. In the earlier games, combat isn't easy so much as annoying. The most elegant way to complete the level (that is when you feel you've played the level to the best of your abilities) are the ones with the fewest engagements, so the combat was easy but annoying, because it was rough and edgy. In Unity, as you level up and pick up moves, your combat is elegant, stylish and since it's modelled on professional athletic fencing (of the hollywood kind) rather than any approximation of battle swordfights (which is probably closer to the brutality and clumsiness of the Pirate Era and Connor than the elegant movements we see there), so the purpose is to make combat fun and see the hero strike this dancing graceful positions. So to me while combat is made harder in Unity, it's also made aesthetic.

Simultaneously, they made stealth harder while making it less aesthetic, removing the whistle, using firecrackers as distractions, generally making stealth a chore rather than stylish. So to me the progression in the game is lopsided in favor of combat rather than stealth, which I don't feel is the case in the earlier games.

SixKeys
01-16-2015, 08:40 PM
I think they developed assets so that it lasts a while so I think the combat will stay the same with some slight tweaks at most. In any case, the "harder" combat was the least of Unity's concerns.

Speaking personally, I think AC games are about the guerrilla fantasy of hit and run so theoretically, having an Assassin be a super-fighter who can walk with nimbleness despite bearing heavy armor (as in the Ezio games) is ridiculous and I am all for combat being made difficult or challenging so that you can defeat combat by thinking like an Assassin, using tools (smoke bombs) or the environment (in AC1, I would draw them to the roof and use the limited space to my advantage) and generally taking the stealthy route without being told to do so.

However, there's also the question of final purpose. In the earlier games, combat isn't easy so much as annoying. The most elegant way to complete the level (that is when you feel you've played the level to the best of your abilities) are the ones with the fewest engagements, so the combat was easy but annoying, because it was rough and edgy. In Unity, as you level up and pick up moves, your combat is elegant, stylish and since it's modelled on professional athletic fencing (of the hollywood kind) rather than any approximation of battle swordfights (which is probably closer to the brutality and clumsiness of the Pirate Era and Connor than the elegant movements we see there), so the purpose is to make combat fun and see the hero strike this dancing graceful positions. So to me while combat is made harder in Unity, it's also made aesthetic.

Simultaneously, they made stealth harder while making it less aesthetic, removing the whistle, using firecrackers as distractions, generally making stealth a chore rather than stylish. So to me the progression in the game is lopsided in favor of combat rather than stealth, which I don't feel is the case in the earlier games.

I completely disagree with your assessment about stealth. There's nothing "aesthetic" about whistle. Firecrackers as a distraction is a little silly, but not more so than the whistle. If I hear a whistle around the corner, I'm not going to walk over like a ******* to see what it was, I'm going to point my gun and shout at whoever it was to come out. Whereas with firecrackers you can't immediately identify where it came from (where it was launched) or what exactly the sound was. It could be a machine breaking down, kids messing around, a fireplace crackling, anything.

Stealth in the old games may have seemed more elegant only because it was mind-numbingly easy. There was only a handful of enemies, always in the same places (in ACU they're randomized) and the AI was so dumb Ezio could stand out in the open for 10 seconds before the enemy really got angry, then just hang from a ledge for a few seconds and the enemy would immediately calm down. "Oh well, no reason for me to investigate further, guess I'll just go back to walking this same old path." There's definitely still some of that in Unity, but at least the guards are quicker to react, it takes longer for the alert state to disappear, they will investigate your last known position and if they spot you somewhere and if they hear or see something strange, they will break away from their routine to go check it out.

Stealth isn't meant to be aesthetic, it should be challenging and realistic. The elegance comes from beating the odds and making it look smooth because you're just that good, not because the game set the bar at its lowest possible setting so anyone could hop over it.

Sejdovic11
01-16-2015, 11:29 PM
I completely disagree with your assessment about stealth. There's nothing "aesthetic" about whistle. Firecrackers as a distraction is a little silly, but not more so than the whistle. If I hear a whistle around the corner, I'm not going to walk over like a ******* to see what it was, I'm going to point my gun and shout at whoever it was to come out. Whereas with firecrackers you can't immediately identify where it came from (where it was launched) or what exactly the sound was. It could be a machine breaking down, kids messing around, a fireplace crackling, anything.

It's just a game dude, who cares if enemies would walk to you when you would whistle. Let me ask you something, would you walk behind some corner when I would pop-up like enemies in the AC:U does when they detect you, you hide, there is this BS "last known position" and they walk straight to this point. That's silly too, but whatever it's just a game, I don't care about that much. There is much more other BIGGER problems that enemies reacting to the whistle. Neither is leap of faith realistic but I didn't saw you complaining over it. And not being able to hide enemies? What's so stealthy about it? You just leave them laying around, they see it, walk towards it and say a few words like "Where are you, bla bla bla" and they act like they did before, walking around like idiots. This AC is pretty weak in any aspects, I personally like their approach to the more stealth based game, opened type assassinations, but it was not executed very well.

SixKeys
01-17-2015, 01:29 AM
It's just a game dude, who cares if enemies would walk to you when you would whistle. Let me ask you something, would you walk behind some corner when I would pop-up like enemies in the AC:U does when they detect you, you hide, there is this BS "last known position" and they walk straight to this point. That's silly too, but whatever it's just a game, I don't care about that much. There is much more other BIGGER problems that enemies reacting to the whistle. Neither is leap of faith realistic but I didn't saw you complaining over it. And not being able to hide enemies? What's so stealthy about it? You just leave them laying around, they see it, walk towards it and say a few words like "Where are you, bla bla bla" and they act like they did before, walking around like idiots. This AC is pretty weak in any aspects, I personally like their approach to the more stealth based game, opened type assassinations, but it was not executed very well.

I just don't understand why whistle should come back when we already HAVE a game mechanic that does the same thing: firecrackers. Whistle was a way to lure guards to a given spot, but its range was limited. Firecrackers have better range and can attract multiple enemies at once. You can either throw it from a distance or drop it at your feet while hiding behind a corner. What do you need whistle for?

ze_topazio
01-17-2015, 01:35 AM
I dare say firecrackers are a lot more suspicious than a whistle.

Perk89
01-17-2015, 01:39 AM
How is it Advanced Warfare has a whistle feature and Assassins Creed doesn't

DynaRider
01-17-2015, 02:35 AM
To those of you who accuse us of whining and complaining about the combat being too hard, are you not also guilty of whining and complaining that it is too easy? I'm guessing that most, if not all of you have played all of the AC series which featured a near invincible assassin and comparatively easy combat. If it is so distasteful to you and such a bone of contention why in heck did you keep buying the next installment and playing it. The players who consider the Unity combat to be unnecessarily complicated and hard have been advised to go look for other games. I would ask those of you on the other side of the disagreement why you all have not looked for something more challenging like God of War or the myriad of first person shooters whose primary thrust is combat. Why do you keep returning to the easy combat of the AC series that you claim does not challenge you or tax your abilities. There are lots of games that would better serve your needs than Assassin's Creed.

Someone mentioned the upcoming AC movie. I'm going to guess that the main assassin is going to be able to defeat any and all comers who would challenge his swordsmanship and killing ability. It's not likely that he will die at any time during the movie or there would be no movie. The Assassin's Creed series became hugely popular with an easy combat system and I cannot think of any good reason why UBI should depart from something that has generated such loyalty.

Shahkulu101
01-17-2015, 03:12 AM
I just don't understand why whistle should come back when we already HAVE a game mechanic that does the same thing: firecrackers. Whistle was a way to lure guards to a given spot, but its range was limited. Firecrackers have better range and can attract multiple enemies at once. You can either throw it from a distance or drop it at your feet while hiding behind a corner. What do you need whistle for?

Cherry bombs don't work. They just walk close to your position and then wander off again.

Useless.

wvstolzing
01-17-2015, 03:21 AM
They're more of a distraction, rather than a lure.

Shahkulu101
01-17-2015, 03:34 AM
They're more of a distraction, rather than a lure.

Exactly, so they don't play the exact same role as whistles which was what Sixkeys was claiming,

I would like a lure device back. You can say it makes things too easy but the stealth system is so unrefined and obtuse that something like that is needed.

aL_____eX
01-17-2015, 03:41 AM
Shahk is right. Every time I try to lure guards with cherry bombs it doesn't work. They turn around long before they are in my assassination range.

Deezl-V
01-17-2015, 05:03 AM
Did nobody watch the AC revelations trailer where ezio goes in guns a blazing and kills like a madman? Did nobody see ac3 trailer where Conner goes in guns a blazing and massacres all those guards? Did nobody watch AC lineage? Giovanni auditore kills all those guards.

The combat in AC unity, although strategic, it's BORING. Never hard. We are playing a video game and it should be FUN.

And we are a trained assassin fighting against meat head guards, not trained fencers. We should be able to chain kill or combo kill or attack, block, parry, counter with ease against these simple guards. Just make them more aggressive. Make them attack more when your back is turned. Make the strategy more about your body positioning than anything but still give the super human-like skills of a video game character.

AC unity combat just got stale.......fast.

You guys ask for realism but then don't say anything about the BS parkour down feature.
(Run full speed towards an edge and magically get sucked to the wall disregarding the laws of physics) lol

DemonLord4lf
01-17-2015, 05:11 AM
Did nobody watch the AC revelations trailer where ezio goes in guns a blazing and kills like a madman? Did nobody see ac3 trailer where Conner goes in guns a blazing and massacres all those guards? Did nobody watch AC lineage? Giovanni auditore kills all those guards.

The combat in AC unity, although strategic, it's BORING. Never hard. We are playing a video game and it should be FUN.

And we are a trained assassin fighting against meat head guards, not trained fencers. We should be able to chain kill or combo kill or attack, block, parry, counter with ease against these simple guards. Just make them more aggressive. Make them attack more when your back is turned. Make the strategy more about your body positioning than anything but still give the super human-like skills of a video game character.

AC unity combat just got stale.......fast.

You guys ask for realism but then don't say anything about the BS parkour down feature.
(Run full speed towards an edge and magically get sucked to the wall disregarding the laws of physics) lol

I know i said i was done with this, but i just want to say, i wish i had the ability to saw things like Deezl-V because thats exactly how i felt about the combat system. Thank you for saying what i failed to say :)

xPLAY3R1x
01-17-2015, 07:45 AM
To the person who claimed there is no input lag:

There is.

Trust me.

I know this because I also play PC games that run at much higher FPS which = better responsiveness for controls.

One of the main reasons Unity has such a delay is because it can barely maintain 30fps on consoles. On PC, I can get about 40-50 maxed out which is playable and a bit more responsive, but not by much. If UBISoft continues to optimize the game more, maybe we can hit the ideal 60fps mark because that is what will tell us if there is real input lag, or not.

Also, it's not just in combat. The general navigation (Parkour) is terrible. Stealth is all but impossible in this game, and I agree it is more of a fighting game than a AC game, but... That is not necessarily a bad thing. It's the only ways they could make it so players could choose the kind of Assassin they want to build with the skills they choose.

topeira1980
01-17-2015, 08:35 PM
To those of you who accuse us of whining and complaining about the combat being too hard, are you not also guilty of whining and complaining that it is too easy? I'm guessing that most, if not all of you have played all of the AC series which featured a near invincible assassin and comparatively easy combat. If it is so distasteful to you and such a bone of contention why in heck did you keep buying the next installment and playing it. The players who consider the Unity combat to be unnecessarily complicated and hard have been advised to go look for other games. I would ask those of you on the other side of the disagreement why you all have not looked for something more challenging like God of War or the myriad of first person shooters whose primary thrust is combat. Why do you keep returning to the easy combat of the AC series that you claim does not challenge you or tax your abilities. There are lots of games that would better serve your needs than Assassin's Creed.

Someone mentioned the upcoming AC movie. I'm going to guess that the main assassin is going to be able to defeat any and all comers who would challenge his swordsmanship and killing ability. It's not likely that he will die at any time during the movie or there would be no movie. The Assassin's Creed series became hugely popular with an easy combat system and I cannot think of any good reason why UBI should depart from something that has generated such loyalty.


sadly i agree with something about what you said - AC games have been games with a gameplay as balanced as a fat lady on a log in a pool with crocodiles for much much longer than it had Unity's balance, so in fact it's a franchise that built itself on the prospect of "look buddy - no matter how bad you play you will still win, just please please please dont feel insulted by our game and keep buying it. you are so awesome. look at you go, killing 40 enemies without breaking a sweat. you're so good at this game...". so if anything - all these balls UBI grew by making ACU challenging and requiring you to know what you are doing is all new. it's not a part of the game's DNA in it's core.
AC was the game franchise that i always wanted to love but never could because, as i stated - i could beat its missions without even thinking about what i was doing. do you know that feeling when you are reading a book but your mind wanders and 2 pages later you're like "wtf did i just read?! how did i get to that point in the plot? what did i miss?!" - well i got that feeling from playing AC games - my mind wandered for 2 minutes in all of a sudden im surrounded by 20 dead men, my health is full and the mission is done and i had no idea what i've been doing.
with such high level of mind-numbness i just couldnt enjoy the games.

in unity i was always in focus. always interested. it was always important to me to kill that guard just as he passed below me, or to snipe that dude before he sees me, or not messing up any parry because i am out of medicine and will die if i mess up just twice more. the game kept me tense. it kept me in it. invested. concentrated. and by an end of a heist mission i did all by myself i felt exhilarated. i was like "YES!! finally!! ha ha ha! im so awesome!"

THAT is what i wanna feel when i play a game.

those ppl who kill 20 enemies in older AC games that thought "im such a bad ***" - news flash: you are nothing special, sunshine. anybody could have dont that. the game just gave you a break. remember that basketball game your won against your dad when you were 5? that's about how much pride you can feel about your victory in an AC game.

i hate games treating me like im incapable. so apologetic. so forgiving. but nor do i like dark souls that keeps crushing my dreams until i replay the same segment for the 20th time, but giving me so much of a break like AC games do (and GTA or watch dogs or almost ANY game that doesnt have difficulty setting as well, for that matter) is an insult to my hobbie :) its mind-numbing. its boring.

AC went too far.
ACU is a first attempt to rectify that.

the new combat system isnt deep, but it is a heck of a lot deeper than how it was before. before perhaps it GAVE you more stuff you could do, but only 20% of it was necessary. ACU gives you less, but i find myself using almost everything it gave. smoke is useful. medicine is useful. money is useful. firearms are useful. these are statement i couldnt say in ANY other AC game, so in MY book - UBI finally got some sense.

look at MGS, look at splinter cell, look at W_D, look at dishonored - if you play these games on a difficulty setting that is not pi$$ easy than it has the same balance as ACU - use stealth or die fighting dozens of enemies. it's not like combat in dishonored or SC is more complex than Unity's.

i will be heart broken if UBI will go "oh no, boss, i think we scared some folks. we should go back to how things were. it was bad game design but it made us money. i dont think you wanna lose money, boss, so lets dumb this down for the masses".

What assassinHMS was trying to say that the way Unity works as a whole is better game design. it isnt true that it is what AC is. it isnt. AC is a shallow unbalanced extremely expensive and gorgeous game. now it a lot less unbalanced and still gorgeous. the combat CAN get better. they CAN add more depth and more options as long as they dont REPLACE the necessity of existing ones. that's called "imbalance". like how in UNITY once you can do heavy attacks with a 1H weapons you no longer need stagger strike with 1H weapon. that's a balance issue. (isnt much the case with two handed weapons though).
whistle could come back. i agree that its a little difference than the crackers.
meat shield could come back, as long as its not something you can do everytime someone aims a gun at you.
chain kills, IMO, are a HUGE no no. counter kills count show up if they are hard to do and are a big risk big reward. but if they make defense more useful in killing than offense than they are dumb again. sorry, but that is DUMB. there is a reason no other game does that. in every game you EITHER defend yourself OR attack others and it's up to you to find the timing to do both. you cant have both with the same move. it's idiotic.

about responsiveness - my game at around 40 fps is completely and 100% responsive. i never clicked a button and didnt get arno to do what he needed in time. if he didnt do it in time it means he didnt do it at all - so it was either a bug (like i coundt attack and parry or couldnt stick to cover) or it had a reason. i never felt lag in response. not more than a fraction of a second, tops.
im not saying that ppl who claim there is a lag dont have lag, but that's more likely an issue on they end. its a bug and it shouldnt be like that but probably most players dont encounter it. its not part of how the engine works.

about poor stealth - same thing. for me it's the best stealth AC ever had. it have everything it had before besides hiding in bushes, and it works better. blending works better. crouching works better :-P and cover works better. it isnt as smooth as W_Ds movements and cover mechanics but it will improve. im sure UBI is aware of the faults of how the controls dont always work. its not a design desicion. its a fault. i assume it will be fixed in next AC games.

Deezl-V
01-17-2015, 08:54 PM
sadly i agree with something about what you said - AC games have been games with a gameplay as balanced as a fat lady on a log in a pool with crocodiles for much much longer than it had Unity's balance, so in fact it's a franchise that built itself on the prospect of "look buddy - no matter how bad you play you will still win, just please please please dont feel insulted by our game and keep buying it. you are so awesome. look at you go, killing 40 enemies without breaking a sweat. you're so good at this game...". so if anything - all these balls UBI grew by making ACU challenging and requiring you to know what you are doing is all new. it's not a part of the game's DNA in it's core.
AC was the game franchise that i always wanted to love but never could because, as i stated - i could beat its missions without even thinking about what i was doing. do you know that feeling when you are reading a book but your mind wanders and 2 pages later you're like "wtf did i just read?! how did i get to that point in the plot? what did i miss?!" - well i got that feeling from playing AC games - my mind wandered for 2 minutes in all of a sudden im surrounded by 20 dead men, my health is full and the mission is done and i had no idea what i've been doing.
with such high level of mind-numbness i just couldnt enjoy the games.

in unity i was always in focus. always interested. it was always important to me to kill that guard just as he passed below me, or to snipe that dude before he sees me, or not messing up any parry because i am out of medicine and will die if i mess up just twice more. the game kept me tense. it kept me in it. invested. concentrated. and by an end of a heist mission i did all by myself i felt exhilarated. i was like "YES!! finally!! ha ha ha! im so awesome!"

THAT is what i wanna feel when i play a game.

those ppl who kill 20 enemies in older AC games that thought "im such a bad ***" - news flash: you are nothing special, sunshine. anybody could have dont that. the game just gave you a break. remember that basketball game your won against your dad when you were 5? that's about how much pride you can feel about your victory in an AC game.

i hate games treating me like im incapable. so apologetic. so forgiving. but nor do i like dark souls that keeps crushing my dreams until i replay the same segment for the 20th time, but giving me so much of a break like AC games do (and GTA or watch dogs or almost ANY game that doesnt have difficulty setting as well, for that matter) is an insult to my hobbie :) its mind-numbing. its boring.

AC went too far.
ACU is a first attempt to rectify that.

the new combat system isnt deep, but it is a heck of a lot deeper than how it was before. before perhaps it GAVE you more stuff you could do, but only 20% of it was necessary. ACU gives you less, but i find myself using almost everything it gave. smoke is useful. medicine is useful. money is useful. firearms are useful. these are statement i couldnt say in ANY other AC game, so in MY book - UBI finally got some sense.

look at MGS, look at splinter cell, look at W_D, look at dishonored - if you play these games on a difficulty setting that is not pi$$ easy than it has the same balance as ACU - use stealth or die fighting dozens of enemies. it's not like combat in dishonored or SC is more complex than Unity's.

i will be heart broken if UBI will go "oh no, boss, i think we scared some folks. we should go back to how things were. it was bad game design but it made us money. i dont think you wanna lose money, boss, so lets dumb this down for the masses".

What assassinHMS was trying to say that the way Unity works as a whole is better game design. it isnt true that it is what AC is. it isnt. AC is a shallow unbalanced extremely expensive and gorgeous game. now it a lot less unbalanced and still gorgeous. the combat CAN get better. they CAN add more depth and more options as long as they dont REPLACE the necessity of existing ones. that's called "imbalance". like how in UNITY once you can do heavy attacks with a 1H weapons you no longer need stagger strike with 1H weapon. that's a balance issue. (isnt much the case with two handed weapons though).
whistle could come back. i agree that its a little difference than the crackers.
meat shield could come back, as long as its not something you can do everytime someone aims a gun at you.
chain kills, IMO, are a HUGE no no. counter kills count show up if they are hard to do and are a big risk big reward. but if they make defense more useful in killing than offense than they are dumb again. sorry, but that is DUMB. there is a reason no other game does that. in every game you EITHER defend yourself OR attack others and it's up to you to find the timing to do both. you cant have both with the same move. it's idiotic.

about responsiveness - my game at around 40 fps is completely and 100% responsive. i never clicked a button and didnt get arno to do what he needed in time. if he didnt do it in time it means he didnt do it at all - so it was either a bug (like i coundt attack and parry or couldnt stick to cover) or it had a reason. i never felt lag in response. not more than a fraction of a second, tops.
im not saying that ppl who claim there is a lag dont have lag, but that's more likely an issue on they end. its a bug and it shouldnt be like that but probably most players dont encounter it. its not part of how the engine works.

about poor stealth - same thing. for me it's the best stealth AC ever had. it have everything it had before besides hiding in bushes, and it works better. blending works better. crouching works better :-P and cover works better. it isnt as smooth as W_Ds movements and cover mechanics but it will improve. im sure UBI is aware of the faults of how the controls dont always work. its not a design desicion. its a fault. i assume it will be fixed in next AC games.


Again, I will repeat myself. We are TRAINED assassins, not MEAT HEAD guards. We are trained in combat to fight against groups of enemies, just like batman. Just make the guards more aggressive with their attacks where it takes skill to aim your parries. So if you're facing 3 o'clock and a guard attacks you at 9 o'clock, then you must press 9 o'clock on your LS then press the parry button. Make more guards attack mid-fight. Make guards attack mkre smarter. But there shouldn't be any reason these guards should be better skilled at fighting than a years on yesrs end trained assassin. Also what can help with making combat more realistic is to make the damage taken more severe. So unless you're good at your timing, you can't just go in there against 10 guys because 2 or even 3 hits and you should be dead. Or maybe even 1 bad sting attack from the back kills you. But don't take away from the chains and combo kills. It's what makes an assassins. We are not just regular schmoes.

DemonLord4lf
01-17-2015, 08:56 PM
Again, I will repeat myself. We are TRAINED assassins, not MEAT HEAD guards. We are trained in combat to fight against groups of enemies, just like batman. Just make the guards more aggressive with their attacks where it takes skill to aim your parries. So if you're facing 3 o'clock and a guard attacks you at 9 o'clock, then you must press 9 o'clock on your LS then press the parry button. Make more guards attack mid-fight. Make guards attack mkre smarter. But there shouldn't be any reason these guards should be better skilled at fighting than a years on yesrs end trained assassin. Also what can help with making combat more realistic is to make the damage taken more severe. So unless you're good at your timing, you can't just go in there against 10 guys because 2 or even 3 hits and you should be dead. Or maybe even 1 bad sting attack from the back kills you. But don't take away from the chains and combo kills. It's what makes an assassins. We are not just regular schmoes.

Amen brother :)

Shahkulu101
01-17-2015, 09:07 PM
If combat is easy there is no point in stealth existing. Assassin's Creed is a stealth game.

End of discussion.

topeira1980
01-17-2015, 09:50 PM
Again, I will repeat myself. We are TRAINED assassins, not MEAT HEAD guards. We are trained in combat to fight against groups of enemies, just like batman. Just make the guards more aggressive with their attacks where it takes skill to aim your parries. So if you're facing 3 o'clock and a guard attacks you at 9 o'clock, then you must press 9 o'clock on your LS then press the parry button. Make more guards attack mid-fight. Make guards attack mkre smarter. But there shouldn't be any reason these guards should be better skilled at fighting than a years on yesrs end trained assassin. Also what can help with making combat more realistic is to make the damage taken more severe. So unless you're good at your timing, you can't just go in there against 10 guys because 2 or even 3 hits and you should be dead. Or maybe even 1 bad sting attack from the back kills you. But don't take away from the chains and combo kills. It's what makes an assassins. We are not just regular schmoes.

but everything you want arno to have he already has - he IS a trained assassin. he can kick *** of multiple guards. by the end of the game, a level 5 arno with level 5 gear you can kill level 5 guards in 3 light hits, not to mention you can kill level 3 enemies in 1 or 2 hits. you are far superior to any enemy in the game. if you feel like the guards in ACU are better or equal to you than you better step you game up. but i dont think you do, so i dont know what your qualms are.

and obviously i agree with sjaklulu101.

if combat is boring or not its a matter of perception and opinion. some may say that combat in ACU is boring but i never had as much fun just fighting in an AC game as much as i do here. it took me more than 50 hours to completely understand the AI and combat intricacies of Unity. but it took me 30 minutes to know everything there is to know in AC3's combat. yeah, i slowly gained more gandgets but didnt use any of them because B then X is all i needed to know so that extra knowledge was pointless.
in fact i prefer ACUs system to Ryse's system, for example. and i prefer ACU's AI to batman or shadow of mordor, where enemies are designed as idiots that only have one attack and one defense and are all binary predictable goons.

Freyr1983
01-17-2015, 10:24 PM
sadly i agree with something about what you said - AC games have been games with a gameplay as balanced as a fat lady on a log in a pool with crocodiles for much much longer than it had Unity's balance, so in fact it's a franchise that built itself on the prospect of "look buddy - no matter how bad you play you will still win, just please please please dont feel insulted by our game and keep buying it. you are so awesome. look at you go, killing 40 enemies without breaking a sweat. you're so good at this game...". so if anything - all these balls UBI grew by making ACU challenging and requiring you to know what you are doing is all new. it's not a part of the game's DNA in it's core.
AC was the game franchise that i always wanted to love but never could because, as i stated - i could beat its missions without even thinking about what i was doing. do you know that feeling when you are reading a book but your mind wanders and 2 pages later you're like "wtf did i just read?! how did i get to that point in the plot? what did i miss?!" - well i got that feeling from playing AC games - my mind wandered for 2 minutes in all of a sudden im surrounded by 20 dead men, my health is full and the mission is done and i had no idea what i've been doing.
with such high level of mind-numbness i just couldnt enjoy the games.

in unity i was always in focus. always interested. it was always important to me to kill that guard just as he passed below me, or to snipe that dude before he sees me, or not messing up any parry because i am out of medicine and will die if i mess up just twice more. the game kept me tense. it kept me in it. invested. concentrated. and by an end of a heist mission i did all by myself i felt exhilarated. i was like "YES!! finally!! ha ha ha! im so awesome!"

THAT is what i wanna feel when i play a game.

those ppl who kill 20 enemies in older AC games that thought "im such a bad ***" - news flash: you are nothing special, sunshine. anybody could have dont that. the game just gave you a break. remember that basketball game your won against your dad when you were 5? that's about how much pride you can feel about your victory in an AC game.

i hate games treating me like im incapable. so apologetic. so forgiving. but nor do i like dark souls that keeps crushing my dreams until i replay the same segment for the 20th time, but giving me so much of a break like AC games do (and GTA or watch dogs or almost ANY game that doesnt have difficulty setting as well, for that matter) is an insult to my hobbie :) its mind-numbing. its boring.

AC went too far.
ACU is a first attempt to rectify that.

the new combat system isnt deep, but it is a heck of a lot deeper than how it was before. before perhaps it GAVE you more stuff you could do, but only 20% of it was necessary. ACU gives you less, but i find myself using almost everything it gave. smoke is useful. medicine is useful. money is useful. firearms are useful. these are statement i couldnt say in ANY other AC game, so in MY book - UBI finally got some sense.

look at MGS, look at splinter cell, look at W_D, look at dishonored - if you play these games on a difficulty setting that is not pi$$ easy than it has the same balance as ACU - use stealth or die fighting dozens of enemies. it's not like combat in dishonored or SC is more complex than Unity's.

i will be heart broken if UBI will go "oh no, boss, i think we scared some folks. we should go back to how things were. it was bad game design but it made us money. i dont think you wanna lose money, boss, so lets dumb this down for the masses".

What assassinHMS was trying to say that the way Unity works as a whole is better game design. it isnt true that it is what AC is. it isnt. AC is a shallow unbalanced extremely expensive and gorgeous game. now it a lot less unbalanced and still gorgeous. the combat CAN get better. they CAN add more depth and more options as long as they dont REPLACE the necessity of existing ones. that's called "imbalance". like how in UNITY once you can do heavy attacks with a 1H weapons you no longer need stagger strike with 1H weapon. that's a balance issue. (isnt much the case with two handed weapons though).
whistle could come back. i agree that its a little difference than the crackers.
meat shield could come back, as long as its not something you can do everytime someone aims a gun at you.
chain kills, IMO, are a HUGE no no. counter kills count show up if they are hard to do and are a big risk big reward. but if they make defense more useful in killing than offense than they are dumb again. sorry, but that is DUMB. there is a reason no other game does that. in every game you EITHER defend yourself OR attack others and it's up to you to find the timing to do both. you cant have both with the same move. it's idiotic.

about responsiveness - my game at around 40 fps is completely and 100% responsive. i never clicked a button and didnt get arno to do what he needed in time. if he didnt do it in time it means he didnt do it at all - so it was either a bug (like i coundt attack and parry or couldnt stick to cover) or it had a reason. i never felt lag in response. not more than a fraction of a second, tops.
im not saying that ppl who claim there is a lag dont have lag, but that's more likely an issue on they end. its a bug and it shouldnt be like that but probably most players dont encounter it. its not part of how the engine works.

about poor stealth - same thing. for me it's the best stealth AC ever had. it have everything it had before besides hiding in bushes, and it works better. blending works better. crouching works better :-P and cover works better. it isnt as smooth as W_Ds movements and cover mechanics but it will improve. im sure UBI is aware of the faults of how the controls dont always work. its not a design desicion. its a fault. i assume it will be fixed in next AC games.

I agree what you said :D
And make ac unity more challenging in term of combat.
I hope the combat system will be improved on ac victory

Jackdaw951
01-17-2015, 10:27 PM
[/thread]

The whole thing. Really. You nailed it. Awesome post.

Balancing difficulty is a tightrope act. You can fall off of it on the easy side, like some earlier AC games, on the hard side, like Dark Souls. Staying on that rope is quite a feat, and leads to the most satisfaction without undue tedium or frustration. This is something that is so rarely said, yet it is so crucial for a game to excel.

Deezl-V
01-18-2015, 01:33 AM
but everything you want arno to have he already has - he IS a trained assassin. he can kick *** of multiple guards. by the end of the game, a level 5 arno with level 5 gear you can kill level 5 guards in 3 light hits, not to mention you can kill level 3 enemies in 1 or 2 hits. you are far superior to any enemy in the game. if you feel like the guards in ACU are better or equal to you than you better step you game up. but i dont think you do, so i dont know what your qualms are.

and obviously i agree with sjaklulu101.

if combat is boring or not its a matter of perception and opinion. some may say that combat in ACU is boring but i never had as much fun just fighting in an AC game as much as i do here. it took me more than 50 hours to completely understand the AI and combat intricacies of Unity. but it took me 30 minutes to know everything there is to know in AC3's combat. yeah, i slowly gained more gandgets but didnt use any of them because B then X is all i needed to know so that extra knowledge was pointless.
in fact i prefer ACUs system to Ryse's system, for example. and i prefer ACU's AI to batman or shadow of mordor, where enemies are designed as idiots that only have one attack and one defense and are all binary predictable goons.

Exactly, binary goons/binary guards. Have you noticed it takes Arno 4, 5 or 6 stabs to kill a guard yet a guard stabs Arno maybe 3 times and kills him? Are you kidding me? You ask for realism and/or tougher combat but make something so stupid that 1 guard can kill Arno faster than Arno can kill 1 guard? When did guards go to school years on years to become deadly killing machines? I'm pretty sure that is what assassins do.

And of course its a matter of opinion. But I'm talking facts here about who I am, an assassin, in a video game. Im not asking for one button kills but to take away the hidden blade to fight with was stupid. Ezio did exactly that against a huge amount of guards in acr trailer. So although the combat isn't all bad, it's just that the combat in ACU was boring cuz it didn't match WHO I was in the game. So even though I mastered it after hours like you, I still felt like a noob, not an assassin.

kriegerdesgottes
01-18-2015, 04:42 AM
Yeah I have to agree. The combat in this game is an absolute joke. I can't even human shield people anymore. Are you serious? It's slow and annoying. I honestly think Brotherhood had some of the best combat. Even ACIII had better combat than this.

Altair1789
01-18-2015, 06:18 AM
I love Unity's combat system, when it isn't extremely inconvenient. When guards try to shoot you, sometimes you can't dodge, sometimes the indicator is off screen, sometimes there is no indicator, it's really annoying sometimes. Also guards are trying to shoot you every 5 seconds. They need to revise that, and add a mechanic for countering that isn't too op, and it'll almost be as good as AC1's combat system (not being negative here, AC1's system was really good, Victory could be a close second, which would be awesome)

I actually like it so much I usually run around with the level 1 sword you have from when you're in Versailles. Occasionally I use a guillotine gun to blow up thieves in huge crowds though

topeira1980
01-18-2015, 09:14 AM
Exactly, binary goons/binary guards. Have you noticed it takes Arno 4, 5 or 6 stabs to kill a guard yet a guard stabs Arno maybe 3 times and kills him? Are you kidding me? You ask for realism and/or tougher combat but make something so stupid that 1 guard can kill Arno faster than Arno can kill 1 guard? When did guards go to school years on years to become deadly killing machines? I'm pretty sure that is what assassins do.

And of course its a matter of opinion. But I'm talking facts here about who I am, an assassin, in a video game. Im not asking for one button kills but to take away the hidden blade to fight with was stupid. Ezio did exactly that against a huge amount of guards in acr trailer. So although the combat isn't all bad, it's just that the combat in ACU was boring cuz it didn't match WHO I was in the game. So even though I mastered it after hours like you, I still felt like a noob, not an assassin.

every level of enemies use different weapon. really noticeable if you look at the swords after they drop from the enemies. every sword does different damage. every enemy has different health. defenders and brutes are armored and big and have more health. level 5 enemies have more health. that's why they are considered harder.

if you health is upgraded to level 3 (of 6 possible) than you are on par with level 5 enemies. if you fight level 3 enemies with level 3 weapon than you kill them in 3 hits. if you fight level 5 enemies with level 5 weapon than you kill him in 3 hits. that's how the game is design. just like when you started with that crappy level 1 sword you killed those level 1 enemies in 3 hits.
if it takes you 6 hits to kill an enemy than you are using a weak weapon and you should upgrade, if you feel underpowered.
also Heavy attacks to more damage and cant be blocked. also you have bombs, guns, stronger armor, you can free run and disappear.... you have a lot going for you. use it and be the master assassin you are.

i only upgraded my health once so i DO die in 4 hits from defender's spears but if i pick a level 5 weapon i murder everyone like nobody's business - first is a heavy attack and then 1 lite attack and another heavy attack which becomes an automatic finisher. so in fact i kill with about 2 or 3 hits tops. and since enemies cant parry heavy attacks i feel little resistence in the way. in a way - it's easier than ACIV. thing is - AC had regenerating health that would regenerate faster than enemies would hit me, so it was even easier than this. you do know that ACU has a regenerating health skill too, i hope.

i agree that enemies using guns can be annoying, but i am playing WITOUT the "conflict" HUD (without the indicators of enemy's health and crosshair when they aim) and i still dont get shot as much. how is that magic? i dont fight right beneath snipers and i always rotate my camera to look for that other enemy i know i didnt kill but suddenly he's too far - which means one thing - he's aiming a gun at me. be aware of your surroundings like an assassin - you can turn the camera occasionaly to look at what's coming. the "conflict" HUD is trying to do this for you so you dont have to but if even THAT is not enough than you need to improve you visual awareness and assassin brain (i.e - kill snipers first).

topeira1980
01-18-2015, 03:39 PM
every level of enemies use different weapon. really noticeable if you look at the swords after they drop from the enemies. every sword does different damage. every enemy has different health. defenders and brutes are armored and big and have more health. level 5 enemies have more health. that's why they are considered harder.

if you health is upgraded to level 3 (of 6 possible) than you are on par with level 5 enemies. if you fight level 3 enemies with level 3 weapon than you kill them in 3 hits. if you fight level 5 enemies with level 5 weapon than you kill him in 3 hits. that's how the game is design. just like when you started with that crappy level 1 sword you killed those level 1 enemies in 3 hits.
if it takes you 6 hits to kill an enemy than you are using a weak weapon and you should upgrade, if you feel underpowered.
also Heavy attacks to more damage and cant be blocked. also you have bombs, guns, stronger armor, you can free run and disappear.... you have a lot going for you. use it and be the master assassin you are.

i only upgraded my health once so i DO die in 4 hits from defender's spears but if i pick a level 5 weapon i murder everyone like nobody's business - first is a heavy attack and then 1 lite attack and another heavy attack which becomes an automatic finisher. so in fact i kill with about 2 or 3 hits tops. and since enemies cant parry heavy attacks i feel little resistence in the way. in a way - it's easier than ACIV. thing is - AC had regenerating health that would regenerate faster than enemies would hit me, so it was even easier than this. you do know that ACU has a regenerating health skill too, i hope.

i agree that enemies using guns can be annoying, but i am playing WITOUT the "conflict" HUD (without the indicators of enemy's health and crosshair when they aim) and i still dont get shot as much. how is that magic? i dont fight right beneath snipers and i always rotate my camera to look for that other enemy i know i didnt kill but suddenly he's too far - which means one thing - he's aiming a gun at me. be aware of your surroundings like an assassin - you can turn the camera occasionaly to look at what's coming. the "conflict" HUD is trying to do this for you so you dont have to but if even THAT is not enough than you need to improve you visual awareness and assassin brain (i.e - kill snipers first).


i shudder from the thought of having counter kills and kill streaks like in AC3 or revalations. if the player can kill thanks to his counter than there's no need to buy better weapon. you just kill with the mighty counter move.
and same goes with the chain kill - if what i need in order to kill a second enemy is just to kill the one before him than i just hassle the weaker link in the chain and dispose of higher ranked enemies with one hit and no need to have a better weapon. so lets get rid of upgradeable weapons.
and if there is little reason to buy better weapons than why do we need money for? so lets get rid of money too.
oh, and if we dont need money than what's the point of heist missions or monetary reward? lets get rid of those as well and our prizes will be teddy bears.

auditorevita
01-18-2015, 06:16 PM
I also thought the combat system of UNITY is terrible .

combat system of UNITY was necessary kill streak and human shield.

phoenix-force411
01-18-2015, 07:34 PM
The only thing that ever mattered in the Kenway saga in terms of weapons was the combo stat with 3 being the most accurate on description whereas Rogue and IV's were all misleading. In ACIII, if the combo for the weapon was 3, that is the weapon you want to go with 'cause the lower the better. The number determines how many hits on an enemy is needed before a combo kill which eventually will lead to a killing streak. The higher, the longer it takes to perform a combo kill thus prolonging fights. In ACIV and Rogue, the higher the stat, the less hits are needed to perform a combo kill. According to the stats for ACIV, a weapon's combo that is 5 will only require 3 hits to perform a combo kill. In Rogue, a weapon's combo that is 5 will only require 2 hits to perform a combo kill.

xPLAY3R1x
01-19-2015, 02:44 AM
There are two components to this discussion I feel need separating for clarity's sake:

The combat in itself is not hard. It's just pressing one button to attack, another to block when the enemies life bar flashes yellow.

That's not the hard part.

The hard part is the animators added TOO MANY flourishes which make killing one person a chore... While the guards act like military soldiers: Killing efficiently and without flourish. This is what Arno should be doing since he is a trained assassin. He should have been trained to kill as fast as possible because that is his profession... Even more so than soldiers, and especially the Royalist Thugs who are all over the place. They are just brawlers with weapons. Arno should make easy work of them... Which he does, but again, he does it in a very inefficient manner.

Using a straight edged weapon (or any hand-to-hand combat) is not about being showy. It's about defeating (killing or incapacitating) your opponent as quickly as possible because prolonged fights in real life wear out both combatants... Unlike movies, TV and video games where prolonging fights is purely for aesthetic effect,

Chaining kills is an example of killing efficiently. What is more "realistic"? Taking two, or three minutes to kill one guard, or taking two, or three minutes to kill two, or three guards and maybe a fourth? Even though AC is fiction and fantasy, the realism of the combat is losing out to showmanship which is not only boring, but also not done very well because you can't cancel some of the finishing animations that leave Arno's back wide open for an attack by those behind him.

Arno is (supposedly) a well-trained killing machine with knowledge about the human anatomy that includes vital organs and arteries. Therefore, he should be able to dust three, or four guys within the span of two, or three minutes. Not one every four minutes -- I'm exaggerating; keep your pantyhose on ;) This applies ten fold if he has the element of surprise...

wvstolzing
01-19-2015, 02:46 AM
^^ Now *there's* an argument worth consideration.
Really good points.

topeira1980
01-19-2015, 10:53 AM
There are two components to this discussion I feel need separating for clarity's sake:

The combat in itself is not hard. It's just pressing one button to attack, another to block when the enemies life bar flashes yellow.

That's not the hard part.

The hard part is the animators added TOO MANY flourishes which make killing one person a chore... While the guards act like military soldiers: Killing efficiently and without flourish. This is what Arno should be doing since he is a trained assassin. He should have been trained to kill as fast as possible because that is his profession... Even more so than soldiers, and especially the Royalist Thugs who are all over the place. They are just brawlers with weapons. Arno should make easy work of them... Which he does, but again, he does it in a very inefficient manner.

Using a straight edged weapon (or any hand-to-hand combat) is not about being showy. It's about defeating (killing or incapacitating) your opponent as quickly as possible because prolonged fights in real life wear out both combatants... Unlike movies, TV and video games where prolonging fights is purely for aesthetic effect,

Chaining kills is an example of killing efficiently. What is more "realistic"? Taking two, or three minutes to kill one guard, or taking two, or three minutes to kill two, or three guards and maybe a fourth? Even though AC is fiction and fantasy, the realism of the combat is losing out to showmanship which is not only boring, but also not done very well because you can't cancel some of the finishing animations that leave Arno's back wide open for an attack by those behind him.

Arno is (supposedly) a well-trained killing machine with knowledge about the human anatomy that includes vital organs and arteries. Therefore, he should be able to dust three, or four guys within the span of two, or three minutes. Not one every four minutes -- I'm exaggerating; keep your pantyhose on ;) This applies ten fold if he has the element of surprise...

that is a very nice story, but that's all it is. a story. a background story.

i have made a lot of arguments in this thread and every counter argument to mine is a whole bunch of lore or excuses and irrelevant to what i am saying.
the counter arguments are talking about what an assassin is, or what THEY think he is, or what they WANT him to be and yada yada yada.
MY arguments are game balance. game logic. game DESIGN.

previous AC games had horrible game balance , which is poor game design. it was a game that was completely dumbed down for the masses. it was the equivalent of Rihanna or justin bieber. all the lore in the world should make some room to good game design. giving the assassin the ability to dispatch of 20 enemies in easy and then calling is a stealth game where you are the sneaky assassins who sneaks unnoticed to kill his target is BS. when you can kill 20 enemies without losing a sweat you dont sneak in. you march in and call to the next thug you see: "I need your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle" then beat everyone up and claim you'll be back. and not only that - like i stated about 3 posts before - going back to the old counter kills and kill streaks removes the need for better weapons, money, economy, co-op, tools, gadgets, fire-arms, armor and practically anything that exists in the game.

the combat system in previous AC games, THIS combat system that supports THIS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUYxdoQHC4E#t=866
is pure poop! this is not how UBI has imagined its franchise but they want ppl to not be mad at their game so much that THIS is what the combat has evolved into.



now, after i made the valid and most important argument above, i will try and delve into the "story" or "lore" argument you were trying to make -
arno is a trained assassin, though i can imagine how much train you can get in one year but whatever, and there is very little flourish in his fighting technique. there is ONLY flourish in the finishers. the finishers are only done once the enemy is dead. up until the point where the enemy is dying and ripe for a finisher all arno is doing is as straight forward and as effective as the other enemies. the animations are essentially the same and all are realistic and relatively effective. if you think that the flourished finishers are taking too much time and in-effective in combat - dont do them. kick the enemy down instead of finishing him or better yet - let him drop on his own.

and there is no extra need for anatomy understanding for a sword fighter (or a gun fighter, for that matter) - slice through the torso - he will die. that's all you need to know. you can also know things like "cut the leg and he will stumble" or "slice the arm and he will find it harder to swing" or "pock his eye ball and he will go semi blind" but that is extra knowledge i kinda think every thug knows.
arno fights relatively effectively without empty gestures or nonsense.


and i have no clue as to why ppl say it takes them long to kill enemies. if it takes you more than 60 seconds to kill 5 enemies than you, my friend, are really bad at this game and should hit the training room pronto.
this is a level 5 assassins with level 5 gear killing more then 20 level 3 guards -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HBYXEoPSzM#t=448

this is a level 3 assassin doing the same but without using heavy attacks, smoke bombs, pistols, or stagger strikers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94Psy9_VgM#t=603

and in this video you see a player killing a dozen level 4 guards who use guns and he does so in less than 2 minutes. that is an enemy in less than 10 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx7xELFved0

so what on earth ppl are talking about?!

nothing exceptionally flourishy and fancy about it. so if you are feeling you need a couple of minutes, or even just one, to kill a guard or two than you do not know how to play the game and shouldnt blame it for your lack of skill. you can blame UBISOFT for spoiling you with previous AC games to make you think you are tough, but apparently you have no clue what you are doing once the gloves come off.


and besides - if you think that just because the game tells you that your character is a badd-a$$ than the game should be easy enough so you can eliminate 2 dozens of enemies than apparently you have never played the witcher or devil may cry or, actually, most action games. and in fact, AC, which takes place in the real world, is supposed to treat the assassin as a more real human being. he is a better fighter than most but he is still a human being fighting other human beings. in real life a really really really good fighter probably cant handle more than 2 or 3 other warriors\guards. that's realistically speaking. a really good martial arts master couldnt handle more than 2 or 3 attackers, if they have a slight clue about what they are doing. so that is reality. so as long as the character in the game can handle 4 or 5 enemies than he is already beyond human. beyond realism. expecting him to kill 20 seems far fetched to me within the semi realistic universe this game is taking place in.

SixKeys
01-19-2015, 11:13 AM
now, after i made the valid and most important argument above, i will try and delve into the "story" or "lore" argument you were trying to make -
arno is a trained assassin, though i can imagine how much train you can get in one year but whatever, and there is very little flourish in his fighting technique. there is ONLY flourish in the finishers. the finishers are only done once the enemy is dead. up until the point where the enemy is dying and ripe for a finisher all arno is doing is as straight forward and as effective as the other enemies. the animations are essentially the same and all are realistic and relatively effective. if you think that the flourished finishers are taking too much time and in-effective in combat - dont do them. kick the enemy down instead of finishing him or better yet - let him drop on his own.


That's easy to say, but the problem is Unity's non-responsive controls. So many times when I'm just a couple of slashes away from finishing an enemy who's low on health, Arno will slide several meters in the opposite direction and start hacking away at another enemy, giving the other one time to recover. I'm not touching the movement controls, so he's doing this back-and-forth dance all on his own. We can no longer lock on to an enemy like in the early games, so it's a crapshoot every time which enemy Arno decides to go after. Sometimes he'll do the stupidest, most inefficient things in the middle of battle. I was in an escort mission, surrounded by enemies who were attacking the people I was supposed to protect. Instead of logically attacking the enemies that are killing his companions, Arno slides across the square to do a hidden blade ground finisher on a thug writhing on the ground. He's not your first priority, Arno!!

topeira1980
01-19-2015, 01:13 PM
than i suggest you DO touch the left stick.

i find it pretty efficient to guide arno to attack who i want him to.
sure - when they are bunched up than it's hard to pick up just the right guy in between the group of enemies who are crammed together but i bet it would be hard in real life as well to slash the person you want when he is a part of a crowd of 3 guys standing really close. but usually i can have two guys right next to each other and hit the guy i want, then switch to the guy next to him, then go back and forth. every time i attack i push the left stick to aim who i am attacking. the glowing outlined enemy is my target and i am locked into him unless i let go of the stick. in this case i will attack the enemy i parry, for example.
in combat you NEED to point arno with the left stick when you attack.
it's like the new parkour system - there is a lot of control there but you need to control it. dont trust it to read your mind.

i still think you are not playing the game right.

but still - getting the targeting right isnt simple in a game when you are fighting multiple enemies (in any game i can think of. not just ACU, or AC in general) and im sure UBI would love to solve it to the best of their ability, but just because it is rarely hard to target the right guy doesnt mean the game gave to be easy and shallow. so your point, while valid (targetting SHOULD be effective) is besides the point of this thread, i feel.

SixKeys
01-19-2015, 03:39 PM
than i suggest you DO touch the left stick.

i find it pretty efficient to guide arno to attack who i want him to.
sure - when they are bunched up than it's hard to pick up just the right guy in between the group of enemies who are crammed together but i bet it would be hard in real life as well to slash the person you want when he is a part of a crowd of 3 guys standing really close. but usually i can have two guys right next to each other and hit the guy i want, then switch to the guy next to him, then go back and forth. every time i attack i push the left stick to aim who i am attacking. the glowing outlined enemy is my target and i am locked into him unless i let go of the stick. in this case i will attack the enemy i parry, for example.
in combat you NEED to point arno with the left stick when you attack.
it's like the new parkour system - there is a lot of control there but you need to control it. dont trust it to read your mind.

i still think you are not playing the game right.

but still - getting the targeting right isnt simple in a game when you are fighting multiple enemies (in any game i can think of. not just ACU, or AC in general) and im sure UBI would love to solve it to the best of their ability, but just because it is rarely hard to target the right guy doesnt mean the game gave to be easy and shallow. so your point, while valid (targetting SHOULD be effective) is besides the point of this thread, i feel.

I play on PC with a keyboard, so no left stick for me. Regardless, pressing the movement buttons will not fix problems like Arno getting stuck in a fight not responding to ANY commands (happened to me in Dead Kings), prioritizing the wrong actions (like the aforementioned ground finish) and sticky animations which break the flow of combat. In tense situations where you're fighting a huge horde, it's frustrating as hell when Arno won't move in the direction you point him in but will instead slide across the map in the complete opposite direction to hack at an enemy you didn't mean to target. As a player, I should be allowed to decide which target I want to take out first. In Dead Kings, this is usually the overseers who have the highest amount of health and will rally more troops. Take the leaders out and the rest will disperse. But the game won't let me hack at my chosen target until they're dead, it will constantly move me from one target to the next without any input from me. That's not me hitting the wrong buttons, it's a combination of lag in the controls' responsiveness and the messed up targeting that has plagued the games since they got rid of manual targeting (AC3 and onwards).

I defend Unity on many accounts, but I am also willing to recognize its flaws and where it needs improvement. I also recognize that not everyone faces the same problems. There are a ton of factors involved from differing hardware to random, unexplained glitches. Just because something works right for you doesn't mean that everyone who complains about a problem are unskilled or wrong. The sheer towering amount of complaints regarding Unity's glitchiness and performance issues should be a clue that the game has some serious issues.

xPLAY3R1x
01-19-2015, 04:29 PM
There is always one defender of the game who is the ultimate "leet" player and everybody else does everything wrong... Except them. Meet Toperia1980, ladies and gentlemen.

-------

This game has SERIOUS input lag. It has to be the engine (Duh!), but it's the kind that can effect game play in negative ways... One of those being combat.

To prove there is input delay, go into the shopping menu and when it says "Buy All" to refill your stock, I always have to hit the "Yes" button TWICE. This is across all platforms and is a clear indicator there is input lag present in the game.

Back to combat...

There is no target lock, so Arno will just take on whomever is in front of him. That might sound logical, but like others have said, sometimes you DON'T want him to do that because there may be an enemy behind him who is about to attack (yellow life bar flashing), or an enemy who is low on health who you should finish off, but you can't.

The worst part is you can't disengage from combat to run. Seriously. What is the point of smoke and stun bombs when you can't get the Hell out of there because Arno is still trying to fight whoever is in front of him?!

Also, it's not just the finishers that take too long. Some of the standard combat moves... Like when Arno slams his blade into somebody's shoulder and forces them to their knees and then withdraws it... Are just too long. That is a perfect example of too much flourish and being inefficient. It's all for show because like I said, in a real sword fight, one or two slashes across the chest and a guy is staggering away, or on the ground because of the pure PAIN inflicted by such moves. I know this is a video game, but this is why the lore and animations aren't matching up and make no sense even within the game world.

dargor5
01-19-2015, 04:36 PM
There is always one defender of the game who is the ultimate "leet" player and everybody else does everything wrong... Except them. Meet Toperia1980, ladies and gentlemen.

-------

This game has SERIOUS input lag. It has to be the engine (Duh!), but it's the kind that can effect game play in negative ways... One of those being combat.

To prove there is input delay, go into the shopping menu and when it says "Buy All" to refill your stock, I always have to hit the "Yes" button TWICE. This is across all platforms and is a clear indicator there is input lag present in the game.

Back to combat...

There is no target lock, so Arno will just take on whomever is in front of him. That might sound logical, but like others have said, sometimes you DON'T want him to do that because there may be an enemy behind him who is about to attack (yellow life bar flashing), or an enemy who is low on health who you should finish off, but you can't.

The worst part is you can't disengage from combat to run. Seriously. What is the point of smoke and stun bombs when you can't get the Hell out of there because Arno is still trying to fight whoever is in front of him?!

Also, it's not just the finishers that take too long. Some of the standard combat moves... Like when Arno slams his blade into somebody's shoulder and forces them to their knees and then withdraws it... Are just too long. That is a perfect example of too much flourish and being inefficient. It's all for show because like I said, in a real sword fight, one or two slashes across the chest and a guy is staggering away, or on the ground because of the pure PAIN inflicted by such moves. I know this is a video game, but this is why the lore and animations aren't matching up and make no sense even within the game world.

I'm one of those defenders you talk about because I do love Unity, but yes the combat is flawed, the finisher moves could have been done like in Shadow of Mordor, were you might be finishing an ork but if another one attacks you in the middle of a finisher you can parry, for some reason this was out of unity, no idea why, no logical sense to it other than to make a game harder in a lazy way.
The input delay is there, and I totally agree with you, some times after 2 slashes Arno just sits there waiting to be striked specially when an enemy is aiming at you and Arno just won't roll.

Anyway, I think since this is a new iteration of the engine Unity was more of an experiment, like AC1 was, and we are bound to see a more polished AC next time, it happened to AC3 too and black flag was praised by lots of people

YazX_
01-19-2015, 04:37 PM
to keep it short, this is AC1 combat system merged with AC3 one taking shield and chain kills out, its the worst combat system of all times, slow and boring same as AC1, at least in AC1 there was no guns, few enemies and AI was not aggressive, so it was balanced for that game at that time. combat system should evolve to the get better not go way back to basics, it feels all the upgrades and updates done to the system based on community feedback have been flushed down and they just brought back a very outdated system.

Megas_Doux
01-19-2015, 05:48 PM
I dont want the 5 years old difficulty in which I was able to go through dozens of guards with bare to NONE effort. However I would appreciate better performance.

YazX_
01-19-2015, 06:14 PM
I dont want the 5 years old difficulty in which I was able to go through dozens of guards with bare to NONE effort. However I would appreciate better performance.

even with the new system you go into dozens of guards if you have the RIGHT GEAR and kill every single one of them with no issues but the difference it takes longer to kill them, so it accomplished nothing by making it harder rather than slow and boring, however, i believe the optimal solution for this thing is to add combat parameters in options like "Chain kills", "Shield",.... with enable/disable, this will satisfy all tastes i guess.

xPLAY3R1x
01-19-2015, 06:26 PM
I'm one of those defenders you talk about because I do love Unity, but yes the combat is flawed, the finisher moves could have been done like in Shadow of Mordor, were you might be finishing an ork but if another one attacks you in the middle of a finisher you can parry, for some reason this was out of unity, no idea why, no logical sense to it other than to make a game harder in a lazy way.

You nailed what the core problem is aside from actual in-game mechanics. Unity just feels like it was trying to be "harder" than it needed to be... Especially the damn window bug where Arno just will not go into windows unless you hit the right spot, trigger, button & movement stick combo.

Don't get me wrong. I think Unity did a lot of things right and I hope UBISoft improves on it.

However, combat (and navigation) are two cornerstones of AC and they need to get this right since this is the fifth (seventh not counting BH and Rev) game in the series.

I think the biggest problem with Unity is it tries to do too much for the player which takes control away from the player by definition. I think this is where most of the navigation and combat issues arise from? I've noticed if I am running along a roof top that sometimes the game will just randomly change directions for me (left, right) which causes me to lose my Parkour rhythm which causes Arnon not to go where I want him to go as well.

It's also obvious (to me) the engine is being pushed well beyond what it is capable of at this point in time. This is more evident on the consoles because of it not being able to maintain a steady 30fps versus playing on a high-end gaming PC that can at least run the game at 40-50fps stable even in the dense crowds like around Notre Dame. I read that it is forcing 100,000 draw calls for all the NPCs, but DX 11's draw call limit is only 50,000. Why they don't just drop it back to this and have fewer people in the city -- 50,000 is still a lot -- Is beyond me at this point in time.

YazX_
01-19-2015, 06:43 PM
It's also obvious (to me) the engine is being pushed well beyond what it is capable of at this point in time. This is more evident on the consoles because of it not being able to maintain a steady 30fps versus playing on a high-end gaming PC that can at least run the game at 40-50fps stable even in the dense crowds like around Notre Dame. I read that it is forcing 100,000 draw calls for all the NPCs, but DX 11's draw call limit is only 50,000. Why they don't just drop it back to this and have fewer people in the city -- 50,000 is still a lot -- Is beyond me at this point in time.

50k draw calls while DX11 peak draw calls limit is 10k, so all other draw calls will be queued and that is causing problems, DX12 will solve all of these issues to allow 70k draw calls and introduce low level APIs without masking and shielding access to hardware. however, in the same article, its said that Ubi did alot of testing on crowd density and its not the cause of the problems.

topeira1980
01-19-2015, 07:47 PM
i am definitely no LEET, my friend. did u see the videos i posted on page 9? i cant not do as well as THEY did. also i have only upgraded my health ONCE the entire game just to make sure my health isnt an equivalent of a 18th century terminator. i also use level 4 swords against enemies level 5 and weapons level 3 against missions with enemies level 4 etc etc.
i also dont carry belts that allow me more than 7 health medicines so make sure i cant overcome everything by using combat.
i like the game a little hard and i am not too good of a player to handle more than 6 enemies without too much medicine use.

however, i dont have any issue with the game switching targets on me at all (against the commanders in DK it is important to attack the commander but i dont lose him as target unless he is bunched up between about 4 other minions, also no issue with arno changing directions, no input lag... none of what you were talking about.
and to get into windows i just HOLD (not tap) the left trigger and move in the windows general direction. works 90% of the time.
to run away from combat is super easy - i hold the free-run button and run away. i see no issue.
and finishers can be easily interrupted in the middle by doing parries. you cant interrupt a finisher with a roll, and THAT's the problem. but u CAN with a parry. you can see that in the videos i posted. it's done many times. all finishers have the same length. it's by design. some are more flourishy than others but that doesnt change anything about combat.

if you cant do those things than you have some serious bugs, my friend. but your issues are NOT by design. i am defending the DESIGN. not the bugs. if you have bugs than im sorry for you and i hope there will be something you can do to fix this. perhaps verify the files?!

i do have other issues\bugs like arno sheathing his weapon in the middle of combat if there is an obstacle between him and the enemy, or that arno instead of rolling he glues himself to cover if the enemies move in the wrong direction behind cover or that bug where i cant parry nor attack at all in the middle of combat and some other bugs. they are rare enough and i almost never lose too much due to them, but they happen.

i am NOT talking about bugs. im talking about the combat design, and i think it is , indeed, a little close to AC1 but better, and even without the meat shield and using the HB in combat and (thank god) without the chain kills and counter kill. these CAN NOT come back.

rant start

and if you HAVE to ask yourself "what does topeira have against chain kills and counter kills? than i will answer (a second time in this thread) -
if you can kill an enemy in a single attack (as a chain kill or a counter kill) than what does the killing is the move. not the weapon. (and a move i bet will forever be easy to do). while this makes sense IRL it makes no sense in a game that wants you to buy weapons and play with others to get over a challenge. in old AC games, where you could chain kill and counter kill, i could kill ANYONE with ANY WEAPON in one hit. now, if i could do that than why on earth would i buy new weapons? and if combat is as easy as killing 2075 guards (like in that AC3 video from page 9 i posted) than why would i buy new armor? answer - i wouldnt. so now you can through the customization away because it has no gameplay meaning. if its just cosmetic than its shallow. so now that we got rid of buying new stuff because they dont matter than why would we earn money? we shouldnt. so lets remove money as well. so why do you help ppl or why do we do heists? lets remove those as well. oh and if i can kill 2075 guards thanks to me uber counter kill than why would i need to play with friends coop? i can do everything by myself. so lets remove co-op too. and if i dont need anyone's help and dont need upgrades, why would i use stealth? lets get rid of that too.

now what are we left with?

not much.
and that "not much" is called "assassins creed 2, ACB, ACR, AC3 and ACIV".

yeay! great progress. thank you counter kills and chain kills. we love you so much.

end of rant


i find combat way deeper than before. in order to be good at combat in ACU you need to understand combat better than you ever did in any other AC game, OR get great gear (or both).
this alone shows that there is a balance in ACU that never existed before. previously u could be as good in combat with the worse gear in the game as you did with the top gear. you could suck and not know anything besides "counter than kill" or "defence break than attackX3" yet still murder everyone in sight. this is bad combat design.
this is why everyone knows AC has bad combat. it's nice in everything else, which is why its successful, but the combat was horrendous.

ACU has fewer "tools" (lite attack, heavy attack, stagger striker, roll, parry, perfect parry, fatal strike and the tools and guns) but they are all useful and knowing when to do what is key. only the heavy attack is OP and basically replaces the stagger strike (bad game design, since a new tool should add. not replace) but you can fight really good even without medicine and smoke and pistols.
but you need to know how to fight or have great gear.
that sentence alone is something you just cant say on any other AC game. anyone can fight well in older AC games. no one complained they dont know how to fight because it was forgiving, POS, unbalanced and apologetic and seriously dumbed down. i get why ppl like it. i get why ppl like candy crush. it's the same thing - ppl just want to succeed and shut down their brain for a little while.
but to make a stealth game work (games like metal gear solid, splinter cell, W_D, dishonored, even far cry, etc etc) you gotta make full frontal combat HARD or stealth is MEANINGLESS!
do you not agree?!

xPLAY3R1x
01-19-2015, 08:42 PM
50k draw calls while DX11 peak draw calls limit is 10k, so all other draw calls will be queued and that is causing problems, DX12 will solve all of these issues to allow 70k draw calls and introduce low level APIs without masking and shielding access to hardware. however, in the same article, its said that Ubi did alot of testing on crowd density and its not the cause of the problems.

Thank you, for correcting me. I knew my numbers were probably off, but it's the same concept. The engine is just doing too much for the hardware to keep up. This is probably why there is an input lag as well?

@toperia1980:

The underlying problem with Unity is it doesn't know what it wants to be, IMO... Which is ironic because the title suggests "one" or "focused".

You can still wade through about 10 guards with smoke bombs, but the way they do this works against not just the lore, but the game's design itself.

Other posters stated the fighting is boring. What I think they mean is it is a laborious vs. exciting, or thrilling?

I agree.

It's not so much the difficulty (depending on gear and timing), but the actual process of killing in this game seems to work against itself at every opportunity whereas the blocking and chain killing -- while OP -- Was a unified (pun-intended!) system from top to bottom. It knew what it wanted to be because the devs had one vision and just stuck with it. When I play unity, I get the feeling this is a typical "made by committee" game because everything in the game works against itself at almost every turn instead of augment & enhance the game play like a unified system should.

The combat, to me, seems like a clear example of this.

It's as if one dev or exec said, "Fighting needs to be more challenging for people to stick with the game". So, the devs tried to deliver this by making fights drag out. However, at the same time, I am sure somebody else then said, "Yeah, but Arno is an Assassin. Shouldn't he be able to quickly dispatch enemies given his training?" The response was probably, "You're right. That's where the gear and leveling system comes into play". The problem is the first part... the drawn out fights with needlessly long animations that can't be canceled... Was probably already in place and thus became a core part of the game?

The fighting is not only boring, but flawed technically (not being able to cancel moves) and breaks all immersion when some street thug in a stovepipe hat can match Arno move for move and sometimes beat him. That's like somebody who hunts on the weekends being able to best a special forces operator. It just defies all logic the game is trying to promote about the Assassin's being "the best of the best"...

Which gets me (and others) back to our point:

If the actual fighting mechanics were executed better and reflected Arno's status as a "Special Forces" solider who should be able to smoke anybody except for his equally trained Templar counter-parts... Like Elise... Then this debate probably would not even exist. The problem is finding a way to do that where any Assassin (or his/her moves) aren't just OP, but... That is kind of the whole (power) fantasy that is trying to be promoted here as in all video games.

You can have a challenge without breaking immersion just like you can make something more accessible without dumbing it down.

ziljn
01-20-2015, 12:57 AM
Thank you, for correcting me. I knew my numbers were probably off, but it's the same concept. The engine is just doing too much for the hardware to keep up. This is probably why there is an input lag as well?

@toperia1980:

The underlying problem with Unity is it doesn't know what it wants to be, IMO... Which is ironic because the title suggests "one" or "focused".

You can still wade through about 10 guards with smoke bombs, but the way they do this works against not just the lore, but the game's design itself.

Other posters stated the fighting is boring. What I think they mean is it is a laborious vs. exciting, or thrilling?

I agree.

It's not so much the difficulty (depending on gear and timing), but the actual process of killing in this game seems to work against itself at every opportunity whereas the blocking and chain killing -- while OP -- Was a unified (pun-intended!) system from top to bottom. It knew what it wanted to be because the devs had one vision and just stuck with it. When I play unity, I get the feeling this is a typical "made by committee" game because everything in the game works against itself at almost every turn instead of augment & enhance the game play like a unified system should.

The combat, to me, seems like a clear example of this.

It's as if one dev or exec said, "Fighting needs to be more challenging for people to stick with the game". So, the devs tried to deliver this by making fights drag out. However, at the same time, I am sure somebody else then said, "Yeah, but Arno is an Assassin. Shouldn't he be able to quickly dispatch enemies given his training?" The response was probably, "You're right. That's where the gear and leveling system comes into play". The problem is the first part... the drawn out fights with needlessly long animations that can't be canceled... Was probably already in place and thus became a core part of the game?

The fighting is not only boring, but flawed technically (not being able to cancel moves) and breaks all immersion when some street thug in a stovepipe hat can match Arno move for move and sometimes beat him. That's like somebody who hunts on the weekends being able to best a special forces operator. It just defies all logic the game is trying to promote about the Assassin's being "the best of the best"...

Which gets me (and others) back to our point:

If the actual fighting mechanics were executed better and reflected Arno's status as a "Special Forces" solider who should be able to smoke anybody except for his equally trained Templar counter-parts... Like Elise... Then this debate probably would not even exist. The problem is finding a way to do that where any Assassin (or his/her moves) aren't just OP, but... That is kind of the whole (power) fantasy that is trying to be promoted here as in all video games.

You can have a challenge without breaking immersion just like you can make something more accessible without dumbing it down.

Very much agreed. There's just no fluidity to combat anymore, and I do find it very boring. Not only is it not fluid and painfully slow paced with awful pauses in combat, but there's less variety to keep things interesting as well. No more disarms, no combos, no cool weapon combos, no human shield. etc. On top of that, the camera seems more a manual process than before. I'm constantly getting hit from off screen, so I've got to keep adjusting the camera when I'd prefer to be dealing with the next opponent in a fluid, fast paced fight.

I like that you cant take on an army and walk away. I like that I have to think about rushing in because there may be too many to take. But mostly I avoid combat because its just so slow and boring. I think this would have been the best AC game yet if it wasn't for the slow, fluidless combat (and jerky free running but that's another topic).

DemonLord4lf
01-20-2015, 02:52 AM
even with the new system you go into dozens of guards if you have the RIGHT GEAR and kill every single one of them with no issues but the difference it takes longer to kill them, so it accomplished nothing by making it harder rather than slow and boring, however, i believe the optimal solution for this thing is to add combat parameters in options like "Chain kills", "Shield",.... with enable/disable, this will satisfy all tastes i guess.

I was actually going to post something like that. I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks this is the best option for everyone. I'm sure someone's going to say "then why would i turn those off since it makes the game easier" Well the simple answer is because you want the game to be harder.

HeJePi
01-20-2015, 04:48 AM
I think I read somewhere that in Unity your enemies are getting intelligent and learn Arno combat style and adapt to it ... I never saw this happen in the whole game !

Some combat moments are pretty illogical / unrealistic:

* This guy who can 'dodge' bullets: sometimes I just shoot one of them when he is fighting with my 'supporters' ... He dodges the bullet 1/2 a second after I shoot :rolleyes:

* When you nail an enemy down on the ground and one of your 'supporters' shoot him at the same time ... He will resuscitate / stand for a split second to take the bullet and die :confused:

Megas_Doux
01-20-2015, 05:29 AM
even with the new system you go into dozens of guards if you have the RIGHT GEAR and kill every single one of them with no issues but the difference it takes longer to kill them, so it accomplished nothing by making it harder rather than slow and boring, however, i believe the optimal solution for this thing is to add combat parameters in options like "Chain kills", "Shield",.... with enable/disable, this will satisfy all tastes i guess.

You said it, with the right gear and thatīs something to me. Because in the old games, no matter the gear, you just CANT be killed....

I pick both outfit and weapons based on looks, which odd enough are not necessarily the strongest ones, quiet the opposite in fact. And even though is still rather easy, no Dark souls/ God of war in titan mode difficulty here, at least there is SOME sense of challenge and thrill, for the first time the stats seem to matter.

I can kill DOZENS of the guards in ACB with my eyes closed, literally. It does not matter whether I have the default armourless look equiped via glitch or the Romulus one, let alone the swords in which ALL have almost the same stats.

I understand controls are not responsive -not my experience though- but I can say that many AC were sadly accustomed to the former easy next to NOTHING difficulty combat supported by 40926655 units of ammo...

The unfortunate thing for me is that based on the reaction, the easy peasy approach in which you are this godly invincible force of nature, while being able to carry 940932 knives, arrows, bombs and such, will be back.

xPLAY3R1x
01-20-2015, 07:29 PM
The biggest (immersion) issue for me is the fact street thugs can match Arno move for move. That's just stupid and goes entirely against the power fantasy AC has always promoted. I no longer feel like a badass. I feel like an Assassin in training. Not a Master Assassin who could easily wipe the floor with street thugs, let alone enlisted guards.

I know some of you want this to be a realism simulator (ha!) where one hit kills Arno, but that's not what AC is meant to be.

It's an arcade game with swords and other historical weapons that promotes the idea you are part of a secret, centuries old clandestine organization whose members are the best of the best at doing what needs to be done to protect mankind's freedom against the Templars. That's exactly what the previous games did right and what Unity gets so wrong on one of the fundamental elements of gameplay: the combat.

topeira1980
01-20-2015, 10:54 PM
well, DMoudry74 , i completely dont agree with you are we are very different gamers, but at least you are wording yourself properly :)

no to the argument at hand:

i find what you are saying about unity having systems that dont play well together to be not only un-true but also that every older AC game had a much much much worse case in that regard.
in older AC games you had the money, weapon upgrade, income building, tower defense, sailing gameplay etc etc and none of these systems had anything to do with the other.
since you could finish the game with EASE without buying a single piece of armor, better weapon, bombs, firearms etc etc etc it made money obsolete. i know. i finished every AC game since AC:B with the first weapon i got with only the first mandatory armor i had to buy. i also didnt like the sailing enough and i HATED the tower defense noneses and hated have other assassins in brotherhood (cuz i wanted to do everything by myself) so i hated the mini-game of recruiting them and in revalations i never needed any bomb (again - with one weapon i could complete every challenge at hand) so i almost never crafted a bomb.... and since there was no point for weapons nor armor than there was no point to earn money. only to improve the ship, which is besides the point. and if everything is easy than i definitely wouldnt need a co-op buddy to help me.

in ACU skill upgrades and equipment IS important, but sadly it is well enough implemented. especially the hardware. weapons all have the same speed within the class, and all have the same damage to parry ration and parry doesnt matter... so again - redundancy. and in the clothes department only armor and consumables seem to matter. at least to me. i couldnt tell if i blended better or not. the stealth aspects didnt matter nor did the noise aspects of the boots. BUT at least there was a reason to earn money.

in older AC even within the combat itself the mechanics didnt play together - you could disarm the opponent, or toss him on other enemies etc, but why would you!? why?!?!? counter + attack was the ONLY option you wanted needed. so AGAIN - redundancy. and when on the defence you could also do far more damage than on the offence thanks to counter kills so offense isnt even really offensive. so you barely need offense. you just stood there waiting. again - redundancy.

in ACU there are fewer options but they are all useful. less redundancy. better game design. if you DONT use all the options than you get players, like youself, that feel like there arent enough options or that there are pauses in combat and that enemies are too hard. no they are not. you just dont play the game right. you are not doing it right. mixing light attacks, heavy attacks and stagger strikes is important. upgrading the weapons is important. doing these things insures that combat is fast, fluid, versatile and quick. with a level 3 weapon (5000F if im not mistaken) i can beat about 4 or 5 level 5 enemies, where each enemy goes down in about 4 hits. 5 if he is a big dude. that is about 5 seconds per enemy. the reason why combat seem to drag is for the first time the enemies are not just standing there and there is no OP counter kills so defense is defensive, and to do damage you need to be on the offense. makes sense? yes it does. every other game does it. only UBI thought it will be a good idea to let their gamers get used to a game that is meant to be stepped on, not confronted. a game that so doesnt want you to lose that it never gives you the option.
it's like a pretty blond hot girl with nothing underneath - looks pretty but lacks substance.

well i like substence and i find unity to be a heck of a lot deeper than previous AC games thanks to not overpowering me but only giving me the tools i need to over come the challenges MYSELF. without a HUGE help from shallow enemies and shallow combat that only appear complex but in fact is ankle deep.

but if easy is good or bad is a matter of perspective and personality of the gamer himself, and me and you - we are different type of gamers.
i am the kind of gamer who likes feeling like a bad a$$ but overcoming challenging things, whereas others, probably like yourself, like feeling bad a$$ by overcoming things that LOOK challenging.
while you probably would prefer driving a Lamborghini in a kart race and feel like schoemaker but passing everyone by a mile, i'd prefer driving a Porsche against other porsches and winning knowing i won thanks to ME. not thanks to having an unfair advantage. there is little value to me in being GIVEN the victory.
in ACU when i defeat like 6 enemies by myself i feel like an assassin. i DO feel like a bad a$$. i do feel like i had an awesome fight that would have looked really cool in a movie. when i beat 20 enemies in AC1 (or 30 in ACIV) i didnt feel like a bad a$$ at all. i felt like an MMA fighter beating the crap out of 20 five year old kids - it wasnt fair. i earned nothing. i am not an assassins. i am a cheater. i use tools that are just.... not fair.

i am sure happy counter kills were out in unity as well as the chain kills. i think NO game should have those. even in batman and shadow of mordor, where you fight dozens over dozens of enemies these mechanics dont exist. in these games you win thanks to moronic AI that is as predictable as the sun and thanks to a huge plethora of combat options (not just tools but more moves). in these games you ARE overpowered but in these games you are a super being. a super human or a magical warrior. and in these games, at least for a while, you are confronted with odds that challenge you. in SOM you get OPed about half way through the game, if you want to, but up to that point the game IS balanced nicely. yes you are super powerful but the odds are so much stacked up against you that you need to be so powerful and you are glad the AI is binary and predictable.
in ACU the numbers of enemies make sense. making the AI completely predictable like they've been before and grant you the power of the gods would make every fight trivial and no victory something you earn but something you are given.

but the argument farther is moot. you like looking good and i like playing good. these can be one and the same, but i am pretty sure UBI wont be able to pull them off so soon, especially if they simplify combat to what it was prior to UNITY. i pray that Victory will be more like unity only deeper and more refined with less bugs and glitches and i hope UBI doesnt feel like they made a mistake by upping the ante for the first time ever in their franchise.

xPLAY3R1x
01-20-2015, 11:11 PM
but if easy is good or bad is a matter of perspective and personality of the gamer himself, and me and you - we are different type of gamers.
i am the kind of gamer who likes feeling like a bad a$$ but overcoming challenging things, whereas others, probably like yourself, like feeling bad a$$ by overcoming things that LOOK challenging.
while you probably would prefer driving a Lamborghini in a kart race and feel like schoemaker but passing everyone by a mile, i'd prefer driving a Porsche against other porsches and winning knowing i won thanks to ME. not thanks to having an unfair advantage. there is little value to me in being GIVEN the victory.
in ACU when i defeat like 6 enemies by myself i feel like an assassin. i DO feel like a bad a$$. i do feel like i had an awesome fight that would have looked really cool in a movie. when i beat 20 enemies in AC1 (or 30 in ACIV) i didnt feel like a bad a$$ at all. i felt like an MMA fighter beating the crap out of 20 five year old kids - it wasnt fair. i earned nothing. i am not an assassins. i am a cheater. i use tools that are just.... not fair.

i am sure happy counter kills were out in unity as well as the chain kills. i think NO game should have those. even in batman and shadow of mordor, where you fight dozens over dozens of enemies these mechanics dont exist. in these games you win thanks to moronic AI that is as predictable as the sun and thanks to a huge plethora of combat options (not just tools but more moves). in these games you ARE overpowered but in these games you are a super being. a super human or a magical warrior. and in these games, at least for a while, you are confronted with odds that challenge you. in SOM you get OPed about half way through the game, if you want to, but up to that point the game IS balanced nicely. yes you are super powerful but the odds are so much stacked up against you that you need to be so powerful and you are glad the AI is binary and predictable.
in ACU the numbers of enemies make sense. making the AI completely predictable like they've been before and grant you the power of the gods would make every fight trivial and no victory something you earn but something you are given.

I can't speak for others, but I don't want anything handed to me.

I like the fact Unity opened up the assassinations and gave you more options. There is even one where you can poison the target without having to stab him. This kind of features I welcome and it is more challenging than just running up to the guy (or gal) and planting your hidden blade in their skull, or abdomen.

However, there will be times when you MUST fight... Either for the story or when encountering baddies in the open world... And this is the part they got totally wrong, IMO because it is just flat out boring and drawn out when it doesn't need to be. I have the highest sword available... The one after the Sword of Eden... And fights still take too long because street thugs have an equal rating as I do. That makes no sense since... They are freakin' street thugs!

As stated before, the actual mechanics of blocking aren't hard. It's a combination of things we've gone over before: Input lag, not being able to cancel animations, being shot from off screen that takes off half your health, etc. All of these things work against promoting the feeling of being a badass Assassin and reduce you to nothing but a glorified police officer in a lot of ways.

Like I said before, there has to be a way to still give people challenge that isn't so monotonous, or technically flawed.

xPLAY3R1x
01-21-2015, 06:53 AM
One more thing...

I am replaying "Black Flag" because I never finished it when it was released, and I have to say it is night and day as far as the combat goes, but in a good way compared to Unity.

Not only are the controls more responsive, but Kenway feels like a badass pirate / assassin because he CAN kill five Spanish Soldiers in less than two minutes... So fast I got the UPlay achievement of kill five enemies in a row without dying! This kind of achievement would never be possible in Unity because it would take two minutes just on one street thug alone. Especially if they have the same stats as Arno... Which again, is ridiculous and works against the background fiction of what an Assassin is supposed to be.

I love the fact Unity pushed for a detailed and more vibrant (alive) world and the devs should be commended for that.

However, I would take a less detailed and densely populated world, but with the old combat system in a New York Minute compared to Unity. I know the goal is to make cities feel like cities and not small towns like previous games, but they are just asking for too much with the limited hardware consoles have at the present time. This is the one instance where I am glad I have the PC version of an AC game because my gaming rig can run it maxed out at around 40-50fps while the consoles can't even maintain a solid 30fps. If it was solid, I wouldn't care, but it's not, so it looks jerky because of the frame rate drops below 30 for a few seconds and then back up to 30.

topeira1980
01-21-2015, 09:51 AM
i guess we will agree to disagree :)

i find combat in UNITY superior to any AC before it. to kill a lvl 5 enemy in unity it takes just 3 swings (heavy attack and two lite attacks, or stagger strike than 3 lite strikes, or any combination of these) so since animation of one swing is less than a second and you need maximum 5 attacks to take a guy out than there is no reason for killing 5 enemies to take more than a minute. i have no clue what you are doing wrong there that makes you feel combat is dragging. in fact with a heavy or long weapon you can do heavy attack and a fatal attack with any weapon and kill almost any enemy in 2 swings.... or do a perfect parry, stagger strike then fatal strike with a 1H weapon... combat IS swift and fast. you just need to know how to fight... and it's not like it takes THAT much experience. and no other enemy can finish you off that fast.

by the end of a ACU mission you get out of the danger zone alive with probably more than 20 dead enemies all over the place, if you chose to kill. if that doesnt make you feel like a bad a$$ assassin than i dont know what you want from a game.... :-P

BTW:
my PC is slightly less than minimum requirements and i run the game on 40 to 50 fps on almost max settings on 1050p, and have no issues with input lag. and i can cancel my finishers to counter or roll if i am attacked by a melee weapon. no issues here. but i do agree that not being able to rotate the camera during a finisher nor the ability to cancel it in favor of a roll when someone is aiming a gun at you is a no no. any bugs are a no no. i dont know if Victory will have melee weapons (i sure hope so!) but i can assume it will be a much more refined version of Unity.

regarding ACIV:
ACIV, IMO, is the worst of the worst in all of AC's combat system. they even removed the roll. now the cpunter button does a roll when you need to roll, so UBI doesnt even trust the player to do even that. and the wasted idea of have multiple types of parry (in the small slow motion window time where you can tap a different face button) - on the surface its such a cool idea, but there is no need to do any other type of parry other than the counter kill.... i have no idea who designed the combat for that AC game and i hope he doesnt work there anymore.

and the AI in AC games is annoying IMO as well. in older AC games you had the normal enemies - idiots who cant parry or do anything other than attack. then there were these agile guards. they are supposedly the second lowest ranked enemies. but no matter what you do you cant hit them. they will dodge and parry you endlessly. BUT you can kill them instantly with a counter kill if they attack.
so wait... this guy is the ultimate fighter and his only weakness is.... attacking!? his attacking is what kills him? someone should take his weapons away from him. he's gonna get himself killed.
and same for the stronger captains in ACIV - you cant disarm him nor attack him. far superior to edward. but if you counter him he's vulnerable to three hits and he dies. again - the enemy's only weakness is him attacking. than have him just sit on the bench and be safe. the poor sap has a family somewhere and he KNOWS he missed "offense" class in fencing school and he was told that being a straight A student in "defense" wont get him far.... and then he went and became a guard.... the noob.

in AC1 i remember jade raymond talking about this is a new kind of stealth franchise where you are hiding in plane sight, where you are the sneaky assassin that hides in the crowd and being invisible until he jumps on his pray like a hawk, where combat is leathal and being a professional medieval hitman is your best weapon....
but somewhere along the lines they felt their innovative combat system will confuse ppl and gave altair bizzillion health and undermined their whole concept. in AC2 they went the opposite way of making ezio an assassin and turned him into a combat machine. after AC:B they started working in UNITY to fix the core elements of the game (trying to fix a core problem after 2 or 3 games is not bad, IMO), but before they had a chance to do release UNITY they released 3 other AC games that kept pushing the notion of the assassin being amega super ultra warrior fighting handicapped guards and now ppl think that THIS is what AC was supposed to be and this is a good example of how a game is designed...

sheeeshe....


also regarding the issue of damage sponge enemies -
i gotta admit that i can only think of 3 ways to increase challenge in a melee combat game like AC:

1) increasing enemy's health and damage. this is what UNITY and most RPGs do. its artificial and make no sense in real life but id does make some sense in a game where you better upgrade your weapons.

2) increasing AIs numbers. this is a problem when the locations in which the missions take place dont fit an increase of quantity. also i dont like quantity over quality. i hope this doesn become a huge thing for AC since i find the amount of guards in UNITY to be a tad high as it is. i mean 5 guards in a 4 by 4 meters room... yet no one opens a conversation... boring shift.

3) increase in AI capabilities. to some degree this is what older AC did and my preferable method but older AC topped the really ****** AI enemies with ever so slightly less ****** enemies. i would like to see more enemy types appearing where they can not only parry you but also perfect parry you, roll and even stagger strike you. and then make these enemies more common as the plot moves along. i know this is the last thing players who wanna feel like a power-house want but it would be my preferable method. it's the most sophisticated one.


i really hope the guy who posted in this thread earlier was right saying that they made assets for unity and will likely use them for the next few games and not go back.
i have ideas on how to reintroduce meat shields and even counter kills as a part of the combat without making them the game breaker they were before but its all a matter of how UBI wants to push the franchise forward.
i know you,DMoudry74, would prefer a retro feel and i guess we will have to wait at least 5 months (till E3 maybe?!) to see which way they are going...

auditorevita
01-21-2015, 03:32 PM
I hope that ACV combat systems is such as AC3.

Megas_Doux
01-21-2015, 03:35 PM
I hope that ACV combat systems is such as AC3.


I liked AC III combat, I really did. But this is Assassins Creed, not Warrior Creed :p I prefer Unityīs approach.


One more thing...

but Kenway feels like a badass pirate / assassin because he CAN kill five Spanish Soldiers in less than two minutes... So fast I got the UPlay achievement of kill five enemies in a row without dying! This kind of achievement would never be possible in Unity because it would take two minutes just on one street thug alone. Especially if they have the same stats as Arno... Which again, is ridiculous and works against the background fiction of what an Assassin is supposed to be.
.

In fact, that is why I like Unityīs approach on combat, for the FIRST time ever in this franchise combat was thrilling and rewarding, stats DID matter. I grew weary of that 5 years old "difficulty" in which I was able to defeat dozens of enemies with my eyes closed and I did that in ACB, literally with my eyes closed........Challenge was/IS needed, but I came to understand that the majority of AC fans are accustomed to next to none difficulty at all.

Not saying is was perfect, but I see it as a step into the right direction.

xPLAY3R1x
01-21-2015, 05:31 PM
Difficulty is subjective, but the main complaint on this thread (that I share) is the combat in Unity is just boring.

It's actually dumbed down and not as complex as the previous games, ironically. Plus, they took away the targeting function which makes combat more random, but in a bad way.

However, getting back to the main point the combat is boring because it takes too freakin' long to kill just two, or three thugs who should give Arno no problem whatsoever. Forget immersion, I don't want to spend two, or three minutes "fencing" some street thug just because he has a five diamond rating. I've got other things to do in the game, and like another poster wrote, this is why I avoid combat as well. It's not that it's hard, it's just boring and wastes time. Especially on timed missions.

If this is how they were trying to promote (broken) stealth, then I think it is an epic failure because it forces stealth for the wrong reasons e.g. there will be times when you have to fight... even in a stealth mission... To get to your objective, but that (combat) becomes so unappealing given the current system. If they wanted to promote stealth properly, not only would the actual stealth be more refined than it is, but they would give you A LOT more options and tools to make full stealth a viable option such as far more alternate routes into and out of secured areas and tools like the whistle to attract guards over to hiding spots so you can kill them. The stupid fire crackers don't work because the guards stop about half-way to where you are when they investigate making them completely worthless.

So, it's not that people want thing "easier". I think most of us just want things to be more fun, or work better than they currently do.

As stated numerous times on this thread, everything in Unity works against itself since the game was made by 10 different studios. There is no cohesive vision and this is apparent in the combat.

In my opinion, what they should have done is just have skill / gear ratings for certain enemies be static across the world and not tied to districts. They are trying to replicate an open world MMO, but this is a SP game... Which is another sign the vision wasn't focused enough, either. So, a low level street thug is going to have a rating of maybe one to two diamonds max across the entire map. Brutes would be three to four and other enemies (Officers) types higher. This way, if Arno is going up against thugs he can easily beat them because not only is that realistic, but it makes certain combat scenarios more appealing because you know you can easily and quickly dispatch certain enemies and not others. That is thinking tactically and not being handed anything, or making things easier to be enjoyable.

ziljn
01-21-2015, 06:04 PM
in ACU there are fewer options but they are all useful. less redundancy. better game design. if you DONT use all the options than you get players, like youself, that feel like there arent enough options or that there are pauses in combat and that enemies are too hard. no they are not. you just dont play the game right. you are not doing it right. mixing light attacks, heavy attacks and stagger strikes is important. upgrading the weapons is important. doing these things insures that combat is fast, fluid, versatile and quick. with a level 3 weapon (5000F if im not mistaken) i can beat about 4 or 5 level 5 enemies, where each enemy goes down in about 4 hits. 5 if he is a big dude. that is about 5 seconds per enemy. the reason why combat seem to drag is for the first time the enemies are not just standing there and there is no OP counter kills so defense is defensive, and to do damage you need to be on the offense. makes sense? yes it does. every other game does it. only UBI thought it will be a good idea to let their gamers get used to a game that is meant to be stepped on, not confronted. a game that so doesnt want you to lose that it never gives you the option.
it's like a pretty blond hot girl with nothing underneath - looks pretty but lacks substance.

I use all the attacks available and use all upgraded legendary equipment/weapons, so there goes that argument. Combat is still boring, slow, and about as fluid as fighting in jello, so I don't know what you're talking about. If it were any slower it would be turned based combat.

xFallenSeraphx
01-21-2015, 06:37 PM
Actually, I have to admit that Unity's current direction is great. As each game in the series comes in, and naturally the time era continues to steadily rise, the usefulness of guns is finally being increased. Now that Ubisoft finally learned that melee combat is "boring" and too "easy", I can instead focus on the best (and most effective) way of killing people as an assassin, which is shooting them and using assassin cache when my ammo is low. Rather than making enemies harder, or increasing their density, I agree that the best method was to make Arno Dorian fight just as effectively as literally anyone in the street who wants to join in on the fight, killing guards with the exact same brutality and finishers as a full-fledged assassin.

Now with a cover system I can just stay crouched and shoot to my hearts content. Much better than stupid swordplay! As a fan of Assassins Creed since the first game, I couldn't agree more with the direction we're going. In fact, I hope by Victory, melee combat is removed entirely to focus on making guns even better. Perhaps we can start using sniper rifles?

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 06:42 PM
Whether you personally think Unity's combat is boring or not, at least there's an actual combat system this time around. Previously "combat" was nothing more than a bad joke. Unless you think a fight between a human and a bunch of ants qualifies as "combat".

So, if you didn’t complain before, now you should probably just stay quiet.

topeira1980
01-21-2015, 06:52 PM
In my opinion, what they should have done is just have skill / gear ratings for certain enemies be static across the world and not tied to districts. They are trying to replicate an open world MMO, but this is a SP game... Which is another sign the vision wasn't focused enough, either. So, a low level street thug is going to have a rating of maybe one to two diamonds max across the entire map. Brutes would be three to four and other enemies (Officers) types higher. This way, if Arno is going up against thugs he can easily beat them because not only is that realistic, but it makes certain combat scenarios more appealing because you know you can easily and quickly dispatch certain enemies and not others. That is thinking tactically and not being handed anything, or making things easier to be enjoyable.

i think combat is more fun than before, not slow nor boring. but boring is also extremely subjective so there is no point in trying to convince anyone if it is or isnt boring. i think that combat in ACU gives you about 6 combat moves (lite attack heavy attack, roll, perfect parry, stagger strike and fatal strike) and you need to use them all to fight well (you can fight using only lite attacks and parry but then fights drag and become tedious and harder than they shoud, and i said WELL), wheras in older AC games you had more combat moves but only needed 2 (counter+kill, disarm+attack) to fight really well. so all other options are pointless. this is not deep.

but with the last paragraph you said (which i quoted) i really really agree :) i think that there should be certain guard types that are easy and you can see them everywhere in the world. as you progress through the game more advanced enemies show up more and more. the dividing to districts is really un-fitting. there is no sense to it and it isnt fun to play. if i am late in the game and want a challenge than i am restricted only to missions in certain parts of the game. if im beginning than i am restricted to where im going.

however this approach of making difficulty unified, like you suggested, means that the game becomes harder as you play. while i am all for it - im not sure you are, with your "i wanna mow down enemies to feel like an *assassin" mentality.


* am i the only one around here that defines an assassin as someone who hits stealthily from hiding and by being clever (like codename 47 from hitman) and not brutally kills everyone in a 1VS100 fight like a TMNT?

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 06:57 PM
* am i the only one around here that defines an assassin as someone who hits stealthily from hiding and by being clever (like codename 47 from hitman) and not brutally kills everyone in a 1VS100 fight like a TMNT?

B...but, but...I wanna be badazz. You see, I have very low self-esteem so I need everything handed to me while being told I'm great.

AjinkyaParuleka
01-21-2015, 07:19 PM
OP would quit Dark Souls in first 10 minutes.

topeira1980
01-21-2015, 08:04 PM
B...but, but...I wanna be badazz. You see, I have very low self-esteem so I need everything handed to me while being told I'm great.

you are badazz, assassinHMs. you are. you are the badazzest of all your friends. and its unconditional. you dont have to do anything to be my precious baddazz. you can fail at saving a word file and still be my little awesome badazz...

xPLAY3R1x
01-21-2015, 08:13 PM
Whether you personally think Unity's combat is boring or not, at least there's an actual combat system this time around. Previously "combat" was nothing more than a bad joke. Unless you think a fight between a human and a bunch of ants qualifies as "combat".

So, if you didn’t complain before, now you should probably just stay quiet.

Actually, you are the one who should stay quite.

I and others present logical arguments and then you resort to childish insults claiming we all have low self-esteem. Pfft. It's you who have low self-esteem, buddy, if you have to resort to attacks and don't have any real counter-arguments.

Fact is most people play games to have fun. I'm not having fun in Unity as far as combat goes. Exploration and other things, yes. Combat, no... And that is a huge part of the AC series.

I don't know how old you are, but when you grow up, you will realize people don't define their worth in the real world by how hard, or not a game is to play...

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 08:19 PM
you are badazz, assassinHMs. you are. you are the badazzest of all your friends. and its unconditional. you dont have to do anything to be my precious baddazz. you can fail at saving a word file and still be my little awesome badazz...

Yay! That feels almost as good as killing an army of redcoats in AC3. See, that's what AC's stories should be like! We should be the cool hooded guy who all girls automatically fall in love with and that makes tons of friends everywhere he goes.

They should totally remake AC2…





Actually, you are the one who should stay quite.

I and others present logical arguments and then you resort to childish insults claiming we all have low self-esteem. Pfft. It's you who have low self-esteem, buddy, if you have to resort to attacks and don't have any real counter-arguments.

Fact is most people play games to have fun. I'm not having fun in Unity as far as combat goes. Exploration and other things, yes. Combat, no... And that is a huge part of the AC series.

I don't know how old you are, but when you grow up, you will realize people don't define their worth in the real world by how hard, or not a game is to play...

Don't worry, you're still badazz even if Unity tells you otherwise. You should totally be able to fight an army. Unity is just too hard!
There, there, you'll feel better after playing a little AC3.

Fatal-Feit
01-21-2015, 08:25 PM
You can still fight an army in Unity.

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 08:29 PM
You can still fight an army in Unity.

Nah, that's only, like, if you're really good at it. Just look:

I used to be able to take on an entire army and now i cant even take out a handful of guys without being killed.
And his Arno is fully upgraded!

But its not that he or the other cool people here aren't good or badazz. Unity's combat is just too hard...or boring, yes that's it, BORING.

Hans684
01-21-2015, 08:32 PM
Yay! That feels almost as good as killing an army of redcoats in AC3. See, that's what AC's stories should be like! We should be the cool hooded guy who all girls automatically fall in love with and that makes tons of friends everywhere he goes.

Or...maybe just maybe...eh, how should I put it? The lore and story you don't seem to care about and not the cakewalk gameplay. Regardless of gameplay Unity is the biggest filler so far, it has the standards of a handheld. A game to fill in the gaps, expect there wasn't any worthy gaps to fill.

Fatal-Feit
01-21-2015, 08:35 PM
I know you're just kidding, HMS, but I don't understand the critique about its difficulty. It's near perfect (perhaps just a tad bit easy). Use some strategy. Throw down some smoke bombs/stun grenades. Prepare to dodge roll when they're aiming a gun at you. I can literally take down 20-30 guys without using more than a few potions. --And I don't use 5 star equipment.

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 08:40 PM
Or...maybe just maybe...eh, how should I put it? The lore and story you don't seem to care about and not the cakewalk gameplay. Regardless of gameplay Unity is the biggest filler so far, it has the standards of a handheld. A game to fill in the gaps, expect there wasn't any worthy gaps to fill.

That's just a joke, I'm not defending Unity's story (or attacking it either).

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 08:43 PM
I know you're just kidding, HMS, but I don't understand the critique about its difficulty. It's near perfect (perhaps just a tad bit easy). Use some strategy. Throw down some smoke bombs/stun grenades. Prepare to dodge roll when they're aiming a gun at you. I can literally take down 20-30 guys without using more than a few potions. --And I don't use 5 star equipment.
But you're, like, a hardcore gamer. The rest of us mortals here think it's boring. Respect our authoritah!

xPLAY3R1x
01-21-2015, 09:35 PM
But you're, like, a hardcore gamer. The rest of us mortals here think it's boring. Respect our authoritah!

You are truly a child.

I know you want all the attention, so in typical troll fashion you started insulting and making generalizations instead of contributing something to a civil discussion. See ya...

DemonLord4lf
01-21-2015, 09:56 PM
OP would quit Dark Souls in first 10 minutes.

It was actually 15 mins :p, but not because of the combat, it was frustrating, but i knew that was going to be the case going in, i just had no idea what was going on and lost interest in the game.

AssassinHMS
01-21-2015, 10:59 PM
You are truly a child.

I know you want all the attention, so in typical troll fashion you started insulting and making generalizations instead of contributing something to a civil discussion. See ya...

If your brain is more insulted by my comments than by AC’s previous combat system, then you are truly the child.




See ya... lol

phoenix-force411
01-22-2015, 12:10 AM
You can fight an army, but you're gonna need lots of smoke bombs and medicine. A room full of level 4 - 5 guards will surely put you in trouble. The agile-like guards that dodge attacks are immune to projectiles, ground attacks, and ground finishers. They are probably the most annoying guards in the game don't even bother trying to shoot them they can dodge even when not in combat stance unlike Arno who can't.

bitebug2003
01-22-2015, 12:36 AM
You can fight an army, but you're gonna need lots of smoke bombs and medicine. A room full of level 4 - 5 guards will surely put you in trouble. The agile-like guards that dodge attacks are immune to projectiles, ground attacks, and ground finishers. They are probably the most annoying guards in the game don't even bother trying to shoot them they can dodge even when not in combat stance unlike Arno who can't.

I hate that they are immune to Phantom blades - even when they're right in my face they can still dodge them

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 12:56 AM
We are not years on years trained assassins. We are noobs. All of us. That's the new combat system in a nutshell.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 01:54 AM
We are not years on years trained assassins. We are noobs. All of us. That's the new combat system in a nutshell.

Not really. Arno's only a noob if the player is a noob.

YazX_
01-22-2015, 02:04 AM
Guys please be civil and please dont start flaming each others.

back on topic, for the DUDE (xD) with the hat that dodges bullets even in smoke and magically stands when you want to ground finish him, you can shoot him easily, i dont know if its a bug which i believe it is and glad its there, the way it works is by shooting him while running, so whenever you see this dude keep running in circles around him while shooting and he will be killed with one shot, however it doesnt work in co-op, only solo.

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 02:10 AM
Not really. Arno's only a noob if the player is a noob.



Really? Please make a video of a battle between 5 guards and Arno and show me Arno is am assassin and not a noob?

I'll wait. If no video, you're a noob. Thanks.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 02:24 AM
Really? Please make a video of a battle between 5 guards and Arno and show me Arno is am assassin and not a noob?

I'll wait. If no video, you're a noob. Thanks.

Ah, I see where the problem is. Look, fighting 5 trained soldiers at once isn't what separates "newbs" from Assassins, if anything it just shows if someone's suicidal.

Now, I suggest you make an effort and understand that Assassins specialize on stealth, they are a blade in the crowd and combat is nothing but a last resort to them. Why? Because no matter how skilled you are with a sword, fights can always end up badly (even against a single opponent). Assassins are not superhuman, they aren’t even warriors. Stealth is their main weapon.
Now get this, previous games only allowed you to defeat entire armies (or more than 3 enemies at once for that matter) exclusively because Ubisoft wanted to appeal to the casual gamers. That’s it, it had nothing to do with being an Assassin.

xPLAY3R1x
01-22-2015, 02:47 AM
What I don't like about the new combat system is too much control is taken AWAY from the player.

Not just the finishing moves that can't be canceled, but it also zooms the camera in which is not what you want when you are surrounded by four, or five guys... Especially if they have guns. That's what annoys me most and is the most "boring" part about the combat. Like I said, it is too flashy and drawn out considering what a trained Assassin does.

BTW...

Just ignore "AssassinHMS".

It's obvious he is some 14-year old kid who thinks he's "leet" because he doesn't like the old combat system. Like I said, when he grows up he'll learn nobody gives a damn about how hard, or easy a game is in the real world as long as people are having fun... Which a lot of posters on this thread don't seem to be having with this new system. The evidence speaks for itself.

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 03:04 AM
Ah, I see where the problem is. Look, fighting 5 trained soldiers at once isn't what separates "newbs" from Assassins, if anything it just shows if someone's suicidal.

Now, I suggest you make an effort and understand that Assassins specialize on stealth, they are a blade in the crowd and combat is nothing but a last resort to them. Why? Because no matter how skilled you are with a sword, fights can always end up badly (even against a single opponent). Assassins are not superhuman, they aren’t even warriors. Stealth is their main weapon.
Now get this, previous games only allowed you to defeat entire armies (or more than 3 enemies at once for that matter) exclusively because Ubisoft wanted to appeal to the casual gamers. That’s it, it had nothing to do with being an Assassin.

Go watch AC revelations trailer where ezio goes guns a blazing against how many many guards and dismantles them like toys until he gets distracted by Altair. Go watch the ac3 trailer where Conner goes guns a blazing against how many guards, and with guns?
Assassin, yes. Super human, yes. Why? Cuz it's a video game and should be fun and fluid. Not slow, boring and have issues with any brain dead guards or street thugs.
Batman as well isn't super human. He is all stealthy too. But when needed, is still trained to fight his way out against many. You want a stealth game? Go play hit man absolution.

Never said combat was hard, I said its boring and contradicts the assassin character.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 03:12 AM
Not just the finishing moves that can't be canceled, but it also zooms the camera in which is not what you want when you are surrounded by four, or five guys... Especially if they have guns.

Exactly, what you want when youíre surrounded by 4 or 5 enemies, is to run away. The combat should encourage and even force you to avoid getting surrounded and not help you out by pulling the camera away. If you get surrounded you either run or die.



BTW...

Just ignore "AssassinHMS".

It's obvious he is some 14-year old kid who thinks he's "leet" because he doesn't like the old combat system. Like I said, when he grows up he'll learn nobody gives a damn about how hard, or easy a game is in the real world as long as people are having fun... Which a lot of posters on this thread don't seem to be having with this new system. The evidence speaks for itself.

The OP would disagree with you, as well as most people here in the forum:

I used to be able to take on an entire army and now i cant even take out a handful of guys without being killed.
Let's face it. Calling Unity's combat "boring" is nothing more than an excuse, especially given how bad the older combat system was.

No wonder you like the old combat system, itís probably the only thing that doesnít make you look like a total idiot.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 03:22 AM
Assassin, yes. Super human, yes. Why? Cuz it's a video game and should be fun and fluid. Not slow, boring and have issues with any brain dead guards or street thugs.
You know what a video game is? It’s fundamentally a challenge that the player has to overcome. That’s what a game is. Challenge in good doses is what’s so fun about games.
What you want is a brain dead combat system that treats the player like a baby while calling him an adult. There’s no challenge whatsoever, only handholding. Although some people like that, not all do.
And so you know, AC belongs to the stealth genre.



Never said combat was hard, I said its boring and contradicts the assassin character.
And why do you say it contradicts what your definition of an “assassin character”? Because it’s too hard when it should be easy to defeat 5 guards, or heck, a battalion.
So yeah, you’re complaining about the difficulty of the combat.

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 04:29 AM
You know what a video game is? Itís fundamentally a challenge that the player has to overcome. Thatís what a game is. Challenge in good doses is whatís so fun about games.
What you want is a brain dead combat system that treats the player like a baby while calling him an adult. Thereís no challenge whatsoever, only handholding. Although some people like that, not all do.
And so you know, AC belongs to the stealth genre.



And why do you say it contradicts what your definition of an ďassassin characterĒ? Because itís too hard when it should be easy to defeat 5 guards, or heck, a battalion.
So yeah, youíre complaining about the difficulty of the combat.

Since comprehension isn't your forte, I'll absolve you from your own stupidity.

Where did I say it's difficult. You are confused with boring and slow and takes too long to kill. How are enlisted guards and street thugs skilled at fighting like a trained assassin? Do you even know how an assassin would get trained? Anyone with half a brain would think they would get trained in how to be stealthy, but what happens when the assassin gets caught in his mission? He has to know how to fight his way out. And I'm sure he wouldn't be trained to fight one or two guys. He's like batman. Batman isn't super human. He's just a regular guy with extensive combat training. Except batman will not kill. And assassin will kill which makes him that much more dangerous. But not Arno. It's like he feels bad to kill. It's pathetic.

Again, I'm not looking for easy, but I'm not looking for slow and boring either.

And last, unity is NOT a stealth game. It's an ASSASSIN game. Assassin are not just stealthy. They are also combat killing machines. Especially of brain dead guards and street thugs.

That's why it's a contradiction.

Cactiii
01-22-2015, 04:55 AM
Since comprehension isn't your forte, I'll absolve you from your own stupidity.

Where did I say it's difficult. You are confused with boring and slow and takes too long to kill. How are enlisted guards and street thugs skilled at fighting like a trained assassin? Do you even know how an assassin would get trained? Anyone with half a brain would think they would get trained in how to be stealthy, but what happens when the assassin gets caught in his mission? He has to know how to fight his way out. And I'm sure he wouldn't be trained to fight one or two guys. He's like batman. Batman isn't super human. He's just a regular guy with extensive combat training. Except batman will not kill. And assassin will kill which makes him that much more dangerous. But not Arno. It's like he feels bad to kill. It's pathetic.

Again, I'm not looking for easy, but I'm not looking for slow and boring either.

And last, unity is NOT a stealth game. It's an ASSASSIN game. Assassin are not just stealthy. They are also combat killing machines. Especially of brain dead guards and street thugs.

That's why it's a contradiction.

Ooh boy, there's a lot to talk about here.

You argued that a video game should be fun and fluid. He argued that a video game should be a challenge. By his definition, the very simple combat of previous games would not be a challenge, and without being a challenge, it would not be fun, only fluid. He also argued that AC is a stealth game. Stealth games are meant to encourage stealth, and as a result of this combat is discouraged- hence, combat should not be easier than stealth. Your eloquent response was to call him a ******* (in a very obnoxiously pretentious manner, if I might add).

Enlisted guards and street thugs clearly aren't trained at fighting like an assassin. That's why Arno can easily beat them in hand to hand combat, compared to a certain 1 on 1 encounter with a trained individual in a cathedral in the game. That doesn't mean that 1 assassin can easily take on 30. It's like the argument of 'how many kindergarteners could you take on?' Sure, most adults could easily beat a kindergartener in a fight. But could you honestly beat a whole kindergarten class if they all attacked you at once?

I also really want to address where you say "It's like he feels bad to kill. It's pathetic." Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that not feeling bad about killing someone is a sign of mental disorder. If Arno was going "Allons-y! Let's gleefully murder our French countrymen!" he would be less sympathetic protagonist and more of a clear psychopath.

Unity's combat is a direct response to how easy previous combat was. I feel like it will be better when fleshed out in Unity and beyond, but as is once you upgrade it it's an effective system. The point of the game is to focus more on stealth than predecessors. The combat is less effective as a result, and the combat generally feels faster than previous games where you would just wait until someone attacked and then counter and mash x/square until everyone was dead. Now you're constantly paying attention to the situation to respond.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 05:07 AM
Since comprehension isn't your forte, I'll absolve you from your own stupidity.

Where did I say it's difficult. You are confused with boring and slow and takes too long to kill. How are enlisted guards and street thugs skilled at fighting like a trained assassin? Do you even know how an assassin would get trained? Anyone with half a brain would think they would get trained in how to be stealthy, but what happens when the assassin gets caught in his mission? He has to know how to fight his way out. And I'm sure he wouldn't be trained to fight one or two guys. He's like batman. Batman isn't super human. He's just a regular guy with extensive combat training. Except batman will not kill. And assassin will kill which makes him that much more dangerous. But not Arno. It's like he feels bad to kill. It's pathetic.

Again, I'm not looking for easy, but I'm not looking for slow and boring either.

What happens when an Assassin is caught in his mission? He escapes and resumes stealth. There’s also combat, but like I said, that is only a last resort.

And what do you mean he isn’t trained to fight 1 or 2 guards? There are no special techniques to fight half a dozen enemies at the same time. All an Assassin can do is to avoid getting surrounded by positioning himself against a wall, controlling the flow of the fight and forcing enemies to keep their distance (which is all up to the player). If he does get surrounded, tools (smoke bombs for instance) are the only way out.
The previous combat system forced enemies to attack one at a time and wait for each other and for the Assassin to finish his attacks most of the time. That’s why you could allow yourself to get surrounded, enemies were extremely dumb.
And I don’t think the combat is slow or boring, besides that’s subjective. What I do find boring is to mindlessly fight an army of enemies politely waiting for their turn (old combat system).
And last, if you feel like Arno’s attacks are too weak or that he should be able to finish thugs and other lower level enemies, then upgrade him.




And last, unit is NOT a stealth game. It's an ASSASSIN game. Assassin are not just stealthy. They are also combat killing machines. Especially of brain dead guards and street thugs.

That's why it's a contradiction.
Newsflash Einstein, there’s no Assassin game genre. There are however, stealth games (games that reward the player for using stealth. Stealth games may also feature combat and allow the player to choose between a stealthy and a more direct approach).

And Assassins aren’t combat killing machines, otherwise they wouldn’t need stealth at all or to spend years honing their skills to become a blade in the crowd.

And guards aren’t supposed to be brain dead either.





Ooh boy, there's a lot to talk about here.

You argued that a video game should be fun and fluid. He argued that a video game should be a challenge. By his definition, the very simple combat of previous games would not be a challenge, and without being a challenge, it would not be fun, only fluid. He also argued that AC is a stealth game. Stealth games are meant to encourage stealth, and as a result of this combat is discouraged- hence, combat should not be easier than stealth. Your eloquent response was to call him a ******* (in a very obnoxiously pretentious manner, if I might add).

Enlisted guards and street thugs clearly aren't trained at fighting like an assassin. That's why Arno can easily beat them in hand to hand combat, compared to a certain 1 on 1 encounter with a trained individual in a cathedral in the game. That doesn't mean that 1 assassin can easily take on 30. It's like the argument of 'how many kindergarteners could you take on?' Sure, most adults could easily beat a kindergartener in a fight. But could you honestly beat a whole kindergarten class if they all attacked you at once?

I also really want to address where you say "It's like he feels bad to kill. It's pathetic." Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that not feeling bad about killing someone is a sign of mental disorder. If Arno was going "Allons-y! Let's gleefully murder our French countrymen!" he would be less sympathetic protagonist and more of a clear psychopath.

Unity's combat is a direct response to how easy previous combat was. I feel like it will be better when fleshed out in Unity and beyond, but as is once you upgrade it it's an effective system. The point of the game is to focus more on stealth than predecessors. The combat is less effective as a result, and the combat generally feels faster than previous games where you would just wait until someone attacked and then counter and mash x/square until everyone was dead. Now you're constantly paying attention to the situation to respond.

Exactly, I fully agree.

wvstolzing
01-22-2015, 05:15 AM
Since comprehension isn't your forte, I'll absolve you from your own stupidity.

Stop it now. No need for such nonsense.

xPLAY3R1x
01-22-2015, 06:17 AM
Stop it now. No need for such nonsense.

Everybody was having a civil discussion until "AssassinHSM" comes in and proclaims everybody who likes the old combat system has low self-esteem and then continues to talk down to everybody who doesn't agree with him. He's a typical internet child who couldn't express himself politely, or intelligently enough, so he thought he would "set everybody straight" and we would all just kiss his arse.

Like I said, I and others have given valid reasons why we don't like the new combat system. We covered both game mechanics and lore. His only counter-argument is we don't know what video games are according to his definition and therefore, everything is just wrong.

News flash:

I've probably been playing games longer than this kid has been alive. Literally.

That's why I can express my concerns with Unity's combat system in a logical way that is backed up by in-game experiences and what the series is supposedly trying to promote. I never once insulted anybody who disagreed with me, nor talk down to them... Unless they deserved it like HSM.

Now, back on topic...

I just hope they find a middle ground in the next games because if this is the future of the series then all the "leet" and "cool kids" can have fun being "challenged" -- Which is itself a contradiction since this game isn't really that challenging; Combat has been dumbed down in a lot of ways which means less tools = boring drawn out fights.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 06:41 AM
Everybody was having a civil discussion until "AssassinHSM" comes in and proclaims everybody who likes the old combat system has low self-esteem and then continues to talk down to everybody who doesn't agree with him. He's a typical internet child who couldn't express himself politely, or intelligently enough, so he thought he would "set everybody straight" and we would all just kiss his arse.

Like I said, I and others have given valid reasons why we don't like the new combat system. We covered both game mechanics and lore. His only counter-argument is we don't know what video games are according to his definition and therefore, everything is just wrong.

News flash:

I've probably been playing games longer than this kid has been alive. Literally.

That's why I can express my concerns with Unity's combat system in a logical way that is backed up by in-game experiences and what the series is supposedly trying to promote. I never once insulted anybody who disagreed with me, nor talk down to them... Unless they deserved it like HSM.

Now, back on topic...

I just hope they find a middle ground in the next games because if this is the future of the series then all the "leet" and "cool kids" can have fun being "challenged" -- Which is itself a contradiction since this game isn't really that challenging; Combat has been dumbed down in a lot of ways which means less tools = boring drawn out fights.

Ohh…poor thing. Maybe you should go play some AC3, it will make you feel better about yourself. There you can even pretend you’re smart!

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 07:06 AM
@ASShms, man you're so friggin stupid. Go watch ezio in the revelations trailer how he takes on a million guards and takes them out like nothing (until he gets distracted by Altair). Then go watch ac3 trailer and watch Conner take out all those guards, even with guns. Now tell me they aren't trained killing machines? Of course they rely on stealth, but they are also trained in combat. And in combat, to be quick and efficient.

And unity combat isn't challenging or difficult. I'm saying it's boring, slow and not fluid. And idiots who say it's more realistic, well if realism is what you want, why not complain about then parkour down mechanic? Run full speed towards an edge and grab onto the side defying physics. How about leaps of faith? Realistic? Nope. And what about costume changing. Just suddenly swaps clothes like a magician. And where is Arno keeping this costume? In his arce?

You clearly don't understand my point. I'm not asking for easy and dumb. Wow. Comprehension issues.

And Ya, there is no assassin genre. But the game isn't called stealth creed. Dummy. It's still an assassin game about an assassin. Duh. Hitman is a stealth game.

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 07:27 AM
@ASShms, man you're so friggin stupid. Go watch ezio in the revelations trailer how he takes on a million guards and takes them out like nothing (until he gets distracted by Altair). Then go watch ac3 trailer and watch Conner take out all those guards, even with guns. Now tell me they aren't trained killing machines? Of course they rely on stealth, but they are also trained in combat. And in combat, to be quick and efficient.

And unity combat isn't challenging or difficult. I'm saying it's boring, slow and not fluid. And idiots who say it's more realistic, well if realism is what you want, why not complain about then parkour down mechanic? Run full speed towards an edge and grab onto the side defying physics. How about leaps of faith? Realistic? Nope. And what about costume changing. Just suddenly swaps clothes like a magician. And where is Arno keeping this costume? In his arce?

You clearly don't understand my point. I'm not asking for easy and dumb. Wow. Comprehension issues.

And Ya, there is no assassin genre. But the game isn't called stealth creed. Dummy. It's still an assassin game about an assassin. Duh. Hitman is a stealth game.

I was about to reply to you but your post clearly tells me you’re mentally challenged. Keep ignoring everyone’s replies, you’re doing great kiddo.


The old combat system sure suits your intellect.

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 07:33 AM
I was about to reply to you but your post clearly tells me you’re mentally challenged. Keep ignoring everyone’s replies, you’re doing great kiddo.


The old combat system sure suits your intellect.

Again, thanks for proving how stupid you are. I said many times, not easy, which equals not the old system. I can't believe how dumb you are. Seriously. Who said I want the old system back? Wow youre dumb.

And of course you have nothing to reply with cuz my last post was a headshot. Bang!!

DemonLord4lf
01-22-2015, 07:35 AM
Alrighty... this thread has devolved into a flame war... Can i get a mod to close this thread please?

AssassinHMS
01-22-2015, 07:48 AM
Again, thanks for proving how stupid you are. I said many times, not easy, which equals not the old system. I can't believe how dumb you are. Seriously. Who said I want the old system back? Wow youre dumb.

And of course you have nothing to reply with cuz my last post was a headshot. Bang!!

I'm not saying you want the old system, I'm saying that it suits your intellect. Learn to read.

I already provided enough arguments which you either ignored or failed to address.

An Assassin is not a killing machine. Why? Because real Assassins weren't. Because they wouldn't need to be stealthy if they could defeat a battalion. Because, according to the lore, Assassins are not warriors (like Unity's developers said). Because every single story in the series so far wouldn't make any sense if a single Assassin could defeat an army.

Your response: But trailers.

If you were smart enough, you would understand that the reason why the trailers show those impossible feats is to attract casual gamers. Because they like over the top action and flashy combat. They think it's badazz. Basically the trailers are like that to appeal to the masses. It's also why previous games allowed you to mindlessly defeat entire armies, because casual gamers think it's cool.


And I could go on and keep explaining but it's pointless. Why? Because you're clearly challenged:

cuz my last post was a headshot. Bang!!

Deezl-V
01-22-2015, 07:59 AM
I can't believe how stupid you are. Seriously. Stupid. You clearly insinuated the old combat system cuz 1: uou told the other guy to go play ac3 which has the old combat system. And 2: you told me my intelligent is of the old combat system which would mean I'm not good enough to play the new system as its too hard for me so the old system is of equal value to me and my intelligence.

That's how stupid you are. You don't even know wtf you're saying.

And last, it isn't about casuals. I'm not a casual. I'm saying that unity combat is boring and slow. How is that up for debate? It is slow and boring. We are playing an arcade style game. You can still make it fun fluid fast and challenging. Make button combos. Make timing and aiming more important. There's lots of ways to make combat fun and not easy. Is that how one dimensional you are? You think fun has to be easy?

I'm done replying to you. You're a complete idiot who is not getting what I'm saying. And I thought the guards were brain dead. You're more brain dead.

Bye Charlie.

YazX_
01-22-2015, 11:30 AM
As i said earlier, please be civil and don't flame nor attack each others and drift the discussion into off-topic one, however, offending members have been dealt with, OP would you still like to close this thread?

ziljn
01-22-2015, 04:24 PM
What I don't like about the new combat system is too much control is taken AWAY from the player.

Not just the finishing moves that can't be canceled, but it also zooms the camera in which is not what you want when you are surrounded by four, or five guys... Especially if they have guns. That's what annoys me most and is the most "boring" part about the combat. Like I said, it is too flashy and drawn out considering what a trained Assassin does.

BTW...

Just ignore "AssassinHMS".

It's obvious he is some 14-year old kid who thinks he's "leet" because he doesn't like the old combat system. Like I said, when he grows up he'll learn nobody gives a damn about how hard, or easy a game is in the real world as long as people are having fun... Which a lot of posters on this thread don't seem to be having with this new system. The evidence speaks for itself.

Yeah, the camera is a pain and only slows things down further as you have to wait for it and then manually pan back around for the next target...*yawn*. Things do move a little faster if you can avoid killing blows all together. It's still a scaled down, jerky, snoozefest of a fight, but you can be done with it a little quicker.


You know what a video game is? Itís fundamentally a challenge that the player has to overcome. Thatís what a game is. Challenge in good doses is whatís so fun about games.
What you want is a brain dead combat system that treats the player like a baby while calling him an adult. Thereís no challenge whatsoever, only handholding. Although some people like that, not all do.
And so you know, AC belongs to the stealth genre.



And why do you say it contradicts what your definition of an ďassassin characterĒ? Because itís too hard when it should be easy to defeat 5 guards, or heck, a battalion.
So yeah, youíre complaining about the difficulty of the combat.

I take it you must have played this game all the way through with only the starting equipment, weapon, and fighting skills?

No?

DemonLord4lf
01-22-2015, 08:38 PM
As i said earlier, please be civil and don't flame nor attack each others and drift the discussion into off-topic one, however, offending members have been dealt with, OP would you still like to close this thread?

As long as this thread doesn't turn back into a flame war, i'm fine with it staying open.

topeira1980
01-22-2015, 09:33 PM
i have no clue why ppl say the combat is slow or boring and that it takes too long to kill enemies.
compared to older AC games there is a lot less waiting to counter with unity and combat looks fast to me:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1000491-This-is-how-I-fight-in-ACU-how-do-YOU-(video-included)?p=10537220#post10537220

RzaRecta357
01-22-2015, 09:44 PM
Agreed Toperia and your video showcases it great. Plus we can tell your age so I know you've put some time into these games.

I stomp butt in this game and it looks way better and is much more engaging than some fake Batman stuff that resulted in basically mashing attack and towards the next badguy after starting off with a counter.

xPLAY3R1x
01-22-2015, 09:47 PM
This will be my last post in this thread for various reasons (no, I was not warned by the Mods ;))

One, there is a difference between boring and challenging, IMO. These two things are mutually exclusive when talking about AC combat. I will take the "less challenging" combat over the "boring" combat because while the goal of the games is to promote stealth, when the crap hits the fan, Assassin's have to be able to dispatch enemies in open combat quickly... For both lore and game play reasons. This is why it is so ridiculous a street thug can match an Assassin move for move if he is the same level as Arno.

Two, a lot of the frustrations in combat come from the poor mission design in Unity, too. Meaning, because stealth is also broken (or not fleshed out), you can't do a mission 100% stealth. Some missions are designed to be open sword fests to help build up your AC points to upgrade gear, too.

For example, "Cartouche's Dairy" is a five star side-mission and there is NO way you can stealth that mission. No. Possible. Way... Because of how it is set up. One of the memoirs you have to retrieve is in the middle of a vineyard surrounded by 12 Royalists, half of which are snipers ON THE GROUND. There are a few of them on the roofs you can easily take care of, but the moment you even attempt to get close to the memoirs at ground level, they are all altered and all of them start shooting at you! Tell me, how are you supposed to stealth this mission? Seriously. It is basically a circle of guards with the prize in the middle. How do you get past them without going into combat?

The above is an example of poor mission design, IMO.

It doesn't know what it wants to be, so when you try to go in swords swinging you don't stand a chance. If you try and stealth it, you don't get very far. Now, IF the combat wasn't such a chore and more realistic... This kind of scenario would be a cake walk IN A GOOD WAY because an Assassin should be able to quickly dispatch, three, or four guards... retreat to generate some health if needed... And then go back in and finish them off. You can't do that in this poorly designed mission. I tried it. Before others say, you're not meant attack them head on... Like I said, the mission is designed so no other approach is viable (because the stealth itself is broken; hive mentality when one guard is alerted).

The sad part is there are tons of missions like this that are supposed to promote stealth, but since stealth is broken it works against itself as previous stated. This is why I believe the combat needs to be like previous titles just to even the odds. So, two major game play elements are out of whack which only exacerbate the problems when combined.

DemonLord4lf
01-22-2015, 10:08 PM
This will be my last post in this thread for various reasons (no, I was not warned by the Mods ;))

One, there is a difference between boring and challenging, IMO. These two things are mutually exclusive when talking about AC combat. I will take the "less challenging" combat over the "boring" combat because while the goal of the games is to promote stealth, when the crap hits the fan, Assassin's have to be able to dispatch enemies in open combat quickly... For both lore and game play reasons. This is why it is so ridiculous a street thug can match an Assassin move for move if he is the same level as Arno.

Two, a lot of the frustrations in combat come from the poor mission design in Unity, too. Meaning, because stealth is also broken (or not fleshed out), you can't do a mission 100% stealth. Some missions are designed to be open sword fests to help build up your AC points to upgrade gear, too.

For example, "Cartouche's Dairy" is a five star side-mission and there is NO way you can stealth that mission. No. Possible. Way... Because of how it is set up. One of the memoirs you have to retrieve is in the middle of a vineyard surrounded by 12 Royalists, half of which are snipers ON THE GROUND. There are a few of them on the roofs you can easily take care of, but the moment you even attempt to get close to the memoirs at ground level, they are all altered and all of them start shooting at you! Tell me, how are you supposed to stealth this mission? Seriously. It is basically a circle of guards with the prize in the middle. How do you get past them without going into combat?

The above is an example of poor mission design, IMO.

It doesn't know what it wants to be, so when you try to go in swords swinging you don't stand a chance. If you try and stealth it, you don't get very far. Now, IF the combat wasn't such a chore and more realistic... This kind of scenario would be a cake walk IN A GOOD WAY because an Assassin should be able to quickly dispatch, three, or four guards... retreat to generate some health if needed... And then go back in and finish them off. You can't do that in this poorly designed mission. I tried it. Before others say, you're not meant attack them head on... Like I said, the mission is designed so no other approach is viable (because the stealth itself is broken; hive mentality when one guard is alerted).

The sad part is there are tons of missions like this that are supposed to promote stealth, but since stealth is broken it works against itself as previous stated. This is why I believe the combat needs to be like previous titles just to even the odds. So, two major game play elements are out of whack which only exacerbate the problems when combined.

In the beginning i said i wanted to take on whole armies of soldiers and whatnot, but thats not what i truly wanted. What i really wanted was what you stated, being able to take out a few guards quickly and being able to retreat back into the shadows. I dont always go guns blazing into things, i actually do try to stealth the missions. In Unity, however, i felt that when stealth failed that I was being punished. I didn't enjoy that. In previous games, if i failed to be stealthy i could fight my way out of the situation and get back into the shadows. Here, if i tried that, I am usually forced to fight the entire battalion of soldiers and thugs that were in the area. Smoke bombs used to be effective that you could use it to quickly kill a few guards around you and escape. Now when you use a smoke bomb and try to kill a nearby soldier, you go into attack mode instead of instant kill. The guy is blinded and choking, how can he be able to put up any kind of defense?

topeira1980
01-22-2015, 10:24 PM
This will be my last post in this thread for various reasons (no, I was not warned by the Mods ;))

One, there is a difference between boring and challenging, IMO. These two things are mutually exclusive when talking about AC combat. I will take the "less challenging" combat over the "boring" combat because while the goal of the games is to promote stealth, when the crap hits the fan, Assassin's have to be able to dispatch enemies in open combat quickly... For both lore and game play reasons. This is why it is so ridiculous a street thug can match an Assassin move for move if he is the same level as Arno.

Two, a lot of the frustrations in combat come from the poor mission design in Unity, too. Meaning, because stealth is also broken (or not fleshed out), you can't do a mission 100% stealth. Some missions are designed to be open sword fests to help build up your AC points to upgrade gear, too.

For example, "Cartouche's Dairy" is a five star side-mission and there is NO way you can stealth that mission. No. Possible. Way... Because of how it is set up. One of the memoirs you have to retrieve is in the middle of a vineyard surrounded by 12 Royalists, half of which are snipers ON THE GROUND. There are a few of them on the roofs you can easily take care of, but the moment you even attempt to get close to the memoirs at ground level, they are all altered and all of them start shooting at you! Tell me, how are you supposed to stealth this mission? Seriously. It is basically a circle of guards with the prize in the middle. How do you get past them without going into combat?

The above is an example of poor mission design, IMO.

It doesn't know what it wants to be, so when you try to go in swords swinging you don't stand a chance. If you try and stealth it, you don't get very far. Now, IF the combat wasn't such a chore and more realistic... This kind of scenario would be a cake walk IN A GOOD WAY because an Assassin should be able to quickly dispatch, three, or four guards... retreat to generate some health if needed... And then go back in and finish them off. You can't do that in this poorly designed mission. I tried it. Before others say, you're not meant attack them head on... Like I said, the mission is designed so no other approach is viable (because the stealth itself is broken; hive mentality when one guard is alerted).

The sad part is there are tons of missions like this that are supposed to promote stealth, but since stealth is broken it works against itself as previous stated. This is why I believe the combat needs to be like previous titles just to even the odds. So, two major game play elements are out of whack which only exacerbate the problems when combined.

i do hope u get tempted to reply to this, but
A. did u see the video i posted? does this look like it takes too long to kill enemies? i show i kill 6 or 7 enemies in a minute over and over again. also unlike older AC games there is less waiting to counter. its better to be on the offensive. and i dont even use smoke to help myself.

and about stealth - dont u agree its better than any other AC game? you cant wistel but you can crouch and use cover. instead of whistling you can make yourself shown for a second and vanish, which will attract enemies. the fire crackers are a distraction. that is new. and the crouching is super important and makes stealth 10 times better than before . so i find stealth MUCH MUCH better.

and yeah, there are missions that are combat oriented or stealth oriented, but that is the case in any game. so i see no issue. certain missions are harder. that is why they are 5 stars. you have hard missions and easy missions. hard earn you more money. that is how it is in any game - some missions are meant to be hard. why is it so hard to grasp that sometimes games wanna challenge you. and you are NOT screwed if u enter a mission fighting. you need to know how to turn the odds to your favor using the tools. if you could overcome the mission without meing a little smart than THAT was poor game design. in that mission you are taking about i killed the snipers on the ground with phantom blade and shot a berserk blade on two guards on roof tops and another one on tough guard on the ground. in the chaos i dropped smoke in a group of enemies before the noticed me and jumped in. i quick-killed about 3 inside the smoke and took on a few others in combat while the rest fought the berserker ones whlie "my" snipers on the building killed a few more. it took me like 3 tries to figure out a way to do this mission but thats how games are they present a challenge and its up to you to find a solution. but that was the fun - using all the tools i had. thinking of a solution.

i LOVE unity's approach to missions - about 50% of the time its really up to the player. the other times you can tell what the devs want you to do (crowd just near a patrolling key target? gee, i wonder if they wanted to me blend kill him...)

in DISHONORED or splinter cell for example you play as master killers as well, and not even in these games you are meant to jump in the middle of combat. is that un-powering? is that not make sense? no. the reason is because from the get go these games were designed as you playing as assassin that rely on stealth whereas AC tried something new and was afraid to commit. NOW they have the balls to let go of the training wheels and ppl find it hard to except the change. i understand why but i still think these ppl need to realize that is makes more sense and it fits the genre AC was always trying be but never let itself.



p.s - i agree with everything assassinHMS was saying about the game, about why the trailers show one thing in one game (an assassin in full on combat) yet another in a different game (an assassin being sneaky in AC1), and about promotion, about trying to show "cool" stuff even if it isnt accurate, about challenge in games, what games are etc etc. i just dont agree with HOW he said it and the personal insults, that were unwarranted :\ i prefer a civil discussion. we dont all have to agree.
i respect what DM is saying and how he is saying it.... even if its rubbish :-P (j,k :-) i love you, man. bromance style)

Alphacos007
01-22-2015, 11:14 PM
Sixkeys:

http://media.giphy.com/media/ymkLJAxVz2la/giphy.gif

topeira1980
01-22-2015, 11:14 PM
In the beginning i said i wanted to take on whole armies of soldiers and whatnot, but thats not what i truly wanted. What i really wanted was what you stated, being able to take out a few guards quickly and being able to retreat back into the shadows. I dont always go guns blazing into things, i actually do try to stealth the missions. In Unity, however, i felt that when stealth failed that I was being punished. I didn't enjoy that. In previous games, if i failed to be stealthy i could fight my way out of the situation and get back into the shadows. Here, if i tried that, I am usually forced to fight the entire battalion of soldiers and thugs that were in the area. Smoke bombs used to be effective that you could use it to quickly kill a few guards around you and escape. Now when you use a smoke bomb and try to kill a nearby soldier, you go into attack mode instead of instant kill. The guy is blinded and choking, how can he be able to put up any kind of defense?



for so long was i like you - i wanted to stay and fight. and i lost. repeatedly. i was like "what? i always manage to kill 10 enemies in AC games, or in batman games, or in shadow of mordor.... i WILL kill these 6 bastards. why wouldnt I?" it took me a while to finally break this mentality of being a god. in ACU i am not a god. im a human. a really good in fighting human but only human. eventually i knew i had to change my strategy and once i did - i started finishing a lot more heist missions solo;

smoke isnt supposed to work as an offensive tool in ACU. you are supposed to drop it and RUN. when i play heists solo and get swarmed by 6 or more guards i drop smoke and run like the wind - run around corners, disappear and climb something. or enter a window. or the moment i break line of sight i hide behind a wall and pray to not be followed. or... simply... hide in a hiding spot. i wait for 30 seconds or so to become annonnymous and the AI will return to their original locations. once they are back to where they stood than the coast is much clearer and i leave hiding and retry.


i am pretty sure that is how it was supposed to play in older AC games but smoke was OP and instead of being used as concealment - it was used offnesively.
however u CAN use smoke offensively - if u drop smoke on a group of AI that ISNT aware of you yet an DONT have their weapons out than you can run into the smoke with eagle vision on and quick-kill them with the HB quickly. again - to me its a much better way of doing smoke bombs in AC. just like how it is in batman games.

in the beginning i realized i cant handle more than 4 enemies. more than that i'd usually run away and "reset" the conflict.
now, as seen in the video i posted in the video thread, i am better. now i am more confident when facing 6 enemies. but even now i see this many enemies and i usually run and hide.
since i love combat than when i see a groupf 7 or 8 enemies than i kill 3 or 4 and intentionally fight the rest. but if something fails on the way - its smoke and run. RUN! not smoke a fight. not smoke and shoot. not smoke and call my mom and say my goodbyes. smoke and RUN.

what im clueless about is what da F are the stun bombs for?

DemonLord4lf
01-22-2015, 11:19 PM
yea stun bombs dont seem to do anything in the game :-/

ziljn
01-23-2015, 05:13 AM
i have no clue why ppl say the combat is slow or boring and that it takes too long to kill enemies.
compared to older AC games there is a lot less waiting to counter with unity and combat looks fast to me:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1000491-This-is-how-I-fight-in-ACU-how-do-YOU-(video-included)?p=10537220#post10537220

Ok... so I didn't watch the whole video, but the first fight takes about 50 seconds to take out 5 regular guards. No heavies or agiles, just 5 regular guards. That's an average of 10 seconds per guard, and you used the gun in there as well which sped it up a little bit. To me, that's just way too long to spend fighting 5 regular guards.

By comparison, in AC3 that fight against 5 regular guards takes about 15 seconds...start counting after the first two are assassinated at about the 5 second mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1x3RjtMPAU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1x3RjtMPAU)

When you've gotten used to that type of faster combat with combo kills and such, which has been the norm in AC for years, is it really any wonder people think it's slow now? It's because it is, by more than 3 times using these examples.

Now I agree that AC3 combat was too easy (AC combat has ALWAYS been easy), but damn it's fun. And it's not really THAT much more difficult in Unity when you gear up, it just so takes so much longer, and I just don't find it much fun since it takes so long and your combat options are more limited, thus lacking variety as well.

If they could create a system that is fast paced, fluid, has variety and is more challenging I'd be all for it. But as it is, Unity melee just isn't much fun, and when I play games my first and only priority is to have fun.

Some people disagree. That's cool. But they can disagree without being childish little internet pissants that belong at the kiddie table.

Hope that helps.

topeira1980
01-23-2015, 09:58 AM
Ok... so I didn't watch the whole video, but the first fight takes about 50 seconds to take out 5 regular guards. No heavies or agiles, just 5 regular guards. That's an average of 10 seconds per guard, and you used the gun in there as well which sped it up a little bit. To me, that's just way too long to spend fighting 5 regular guards.

By comparison, in AC3 that fight against 5 regular guards takes about 15 seconds...start counting after the first two are assassinated at about the 5 second mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1x3RjtMPAU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1x3RjtMPAU)

When you've gotten used to that type of faster combat with combo kills and such, which has been the norm in AC for years, is it really any wonder people think it's slow now? It's because it is, by more than 3 times using these examples.

Now I agree that AC3 combat was too easy (AC combat has ALWAYS been easy), but damn it's fun. And it's not really THAT much more difficult in Unity when you gear up, it just so takes so much longer, and I just don't find it much fun since it takes so long and your combat options are more limited, thus lacking variety as well.

If they could create a system that is fast paced, fluid, has variety and is more challenging I'd be all for it. But as it is, Unity melee just isn't much fun, and when I play games my first and only priority is to have fun.

Some people disagree. That's cool. But they can disagree without being childish little internet pissants that belong at the kiddie table.

Hope that helps.

there is no doubt that in a combat system where you kill in one offense almost every time it seems quicker. you know what else is quicker? a race where you start first on the grid and must race for 10 meters. what else is quick? stepping on snails. what else? murdering 3 babies in the nursery (that turned dark fast). sure it's quick, but is it good that its quick? you think so. i think not.
in the video i posted (which was long, granted) i killed almost 20 enemies in less than a minute and a half starting at 2:04. under certain circumstances it does get like that in unity, but thankfully it isnt like that most of the time if you fight enemies of equal level to you, which is how the game is designed (give you missions to do for every level you are in). but i must that combat in older AC games TOO QUICK. not more fluid. it seemed more fluid because half the time you counter killed which was a little cut scene where you just sat there watching while the character killed 1 or 2 guys for you and it was all choreographed to be fluid without player intervention, so calling a "cutscene" fluid-gameplay is not what i respect as fluid combat. nor is killing in one attack.

it even takes longer to kill goons in batman or SOM than in older AC games. almost every game company feels the same way as the ppl who think older AC games where a mess think. this is why no one copies ACs counter kills and chain kills. only AC copies others.

to you killing 20 guards was fun. to others it was... trivial. and some ppl dont like trivial. i was not having any fun in AC3 and ACIV, for example. chopping enemies was as tense and exciting as chopping salad - it had to be done and i can zone out when i do it until its over.... what game company would want me to zone out when i play their game? i find it kinda insulting to the game, where you can shut off your brain when playing...

also, more options does not mean deeper. it sometimes just mean more redundancy. in ACU there are less options but its deeper since they are more useful. so in fact in older ACU i had a lot of options i didnt know how to use cuz i never needed them (bombs, rope dart.... stealth in general).
ppl compared how smoke works in ACU compared to older AC games.... and i was like "there was smoke in older AC games!? i never even needed to check..." but now i love smoke bombs in ACU. so much so that when i went to play W_D a few days ago i was like "where is my smoke button in this game?!?" :P

anyway, some think fun is overpowering, others think fun is balanced or tense.
it is impossible to please both since they are the opposite.

i just think that in a game where you want to promote stealth you must make combat-to-stealth balanced.... and this was never ACs thing. ACU is the first step in the right direction and i wonder if UBI can satisfy all of its fans... though it does seem impossible.

DemonLord4lf
01-23-2015, 10:07 AM
there is no doubt that in a combat system where you kill in one offense almost every time it seems quicker. you know what else is quicker? a race where you start first on the grid and must race for 10 meters. what else is quick? stepping on snails. what else? murdering 3 babies in the nursery (that turned dark fast). sure it's quick, but is it good that its quick? you think so. i think not.
in the video i posted (which was long, granted) i killed almost 20 enemies in less than a minute and a half starting at 2:04. under certain circumstances it does get like that in unity, but thankfully it isnt like that most of the time if you fight enemies of equal level to you, which is how the game is designed (give you missions to do for every level you are in). but i must that combat in older AC games TOO QUICK. not more fluid. it seemed more fluid because half the time you counter killed which was a little cut scene where you just sat there watching while the character killed 1 or 2 guys for you and it was all choreographed to be fluid without player intervention, so calling a "cutscene" fluid-gameplay is not what i respect as fluid combat. nor is killing in one attack.

it takes longer to kill goons in batman or SOM than in older AC games. almost every game company feels like the ppl who think older AC games where a mess. this is why no one copies AC. only AC copies others. AC had some new ideas of its own (counter kills and chain kills) in the combat department.... but then it dropped them when it realized when no one else does them.

to you killing 20 guards was fun. to others it was... trivial. and some ppl dont like trivial. i was not having any fun in AC3 and ACIV, for example. chopping enemies was as tense and exciting as chopping salad - it had to be done and i can zone out when i do it until its over.... what game company would want me to zone out when i play their game? i find it kinda insulting to the game, where you can shut off your brain when playing...

also, more options does not mean deeper. it sometimes just mean more redundancy. in ACU there are less options but its deeper since they are more useful.
ppl compared how smoke works in ACU compared to older AC games.... and i was like "there was smoke in older AC games!? i never even needed to check..." but now i love smoke bombs in ACU. so much so that when i went to play W_D a few days ago i was like "where is my smoke button in this game?!?" :P

anyway, some think fun is overpowering, others think fun is balanced or tense.
it is impossible to please both since they are the opposite.

i just think that in a game where you want to promote stealth you must make combat-to-stealth balanced.... and this was never ACs thing. ACU is the first step in the right direction and i wonder if UBI can satisfy all of its fans... though it does seem impossible.

We had more stealth options in this game then in previous, however, we lost combat options. They cant take away options from combat to give more for stealth. They do need to balance it out. I have played the game again and i do agree the new combat system is challenging, however its still frustrating when a whole battalion of soldiers comes out of no where. People have told me "you gotta get away" which i've tried, but its as if they have radar or something and can find me no matter where i go and it feels as if the entire city is now hunting me down x.x

How is that fun? It feels like i've been punished for trying a different approach. I thought AC was about freedom of choice. If i want to do a combat approach, i shouldn't be punished. Same goes for those who want to do stealth. Neither side should be punished because of what they prefer to do.

topeira1980
01-23-2015, 11:25 AM
We had more stealth options in this game then in previous, however, we lost combat options. They cant take away options from combat to give more for stealth. They do need to balance it out. I have played the game again and i do agree the new combat system is challenging, however its still frustrating when a whole battalion of soldiers comes out of no where. People have told me "you gotta get away" which i've tried, but its as if they have radar or something and can find me no matter where i go and it feels as if the entire city is now hunting me down x.x

How is that fun? It feels like i've been punished for trying a different approach. I thought AC was about freedom of choice. If i want to do a combat approach, i shouldn't be punished. Same goes for those who want to do stealth. Neither side should be punished because of what they prefer to do.

it was me who told u to run :P

AC, like other stealth games, is not about options is a sense of "you wanna go rambo? go rambo. its your option.
no.
its like "you need to chose your fights carefully. you can only take on so many enemies so you need to make sure you dont encounter more than that (how many u can take on is individual to each players. know your limit). HOWEVER you have many options to chose on how to approach an overwhelming situation. you can go from the rooftops, you can sneak around an open window, you drop smoke in the entrance and go through the smoke or you can berserk a guard in the opposite side of the counrtyard and sneak after distracting everyone, you can start a fight at the gates and once everyone is fighting you - pop a smoke bomb and go inside the building then they are blinded, or you can do what i usually like and that is sniping some of the guards, HBing some others, and when it looks like i will only be fighting about 4 enemies - i go fighting and kicking ***.... there is a lot of freedom. there is only one thing you cant do - fight everyone.

a game that lets you do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING and get away with it is not balanced. even open world racing games put checkpoints here and there. you cant let a player do whatever he wants without penalty or its poor balance.

also i find it really easy escaping guards. this is the only AC where they cant free run on rooftops like you can so running around a corner and climbing to a roof gets me out of danger fast. but if im indoors than along the way to where the objective is i try and remember where are all these closets i can hide inside. if poop hits the ventilator i pop a smoke and run for such closet.
also when u r discovered you can see the hidng spots on the minimap as blue triangles. also if u use eagle vision u see closets glow. there are many ways to finding where to hide. you need to learn the game. i play without the minimap so its a little more tricky for me, but i manage.

but the easiest tip i can give you on how to vanish, which is a simple exploit of the AI - if you are chased - run towards a hiding spot (closet or haystack or whathaveyou) and once enemies are around you THEN you drop smoke and jump into hiding. in really old AC games the AI would check in hay stacks but not in ACU. here they are like "that is weird - we were chasing this dude next to this haystack, and then smoke, and now he's gone. there is nothing here but this large haystack.... oh well. back to my post...."

p.s. - i would love to have more combat options, as long as they are balanced. meat shield could be brought back but IMO the best way to implement it is you can only use a guard as a meat shield is if he is staggering after a hit, a stagger strike or parry. not at ANY time. and then you grab him for a second and then he gets away (unless dead). and if no one is aiming when you try and grab him than its a small throw (like old AC games where you could throw one enemy onto another to get them to fall.
if you can EITHER hurt and enemy OR cause him or his friend to fall (and be out of the fight for a few seconds) than its balanced. in ACIV for example there was no reason to knock enemies down because you could kill them instead. same with disarming them.

also i think disarming could be brought back but it needs to be hard to do, or only be possible on low health enemy who is 2 hits from dying or something, and once the enemy is disarmed he stays away from you. he doesnt stay there to get slaughtered but he stays away from you. you try and hit him - he runs slightly farther. and that AI will try to pick up a weapon the moment he can. so again - a disarm isnt an easier way to kill the enemy. otherwise you'd always do that. but its a way to keep the enemy away from the fight.
every option should have upside and downside. AC games gave you counter kills and kill streaks which had NO downsides - therefor unbalanced.
i feel Unity has very few options that only has upsides. only heavy attack is OP... but at least its a little slow....

DemonLord4lf
01-23-2015, 07:29 PM
it was me who told u to run :P

AC, like other stealth games, is not about options is a sense of "you wanna go rambo? go rambo. its your option.
no.
its like "you need to chose your fights carefully. you can only take on so many enemies so you need to make sure you dont encounter more than that (how many u can take on is individual to each players. know your limit). HOWEVER you have many options to chose on how to approach an overwhelming situation. you can go from the rooftops, you can sneak around an open window, you drop smoke in the entrance and go through the smoke or you can berserk a guard in the opposite side of the counrtyard and sneak after distracting everyone, you can start a fight at the gates and once everyone is fighting you - pop a smoke bomb and go inside the building then they are blinded, or you can do what i usually like and that is sniping some of the guards, HBing some others, and when it looks like i will only be fighting about 4 enemies - i go fighting and kicking ***.... there is a lot of freedom. there is only one thing you cant do - fight everyone.

a game that lets you do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING and get away with it is not balanced. even open world racing games put checkpoints here and there. you cant let a player do whatever he wants without penalty or its poor balance.

also i find it really easy escaping guards. this is the only AC where they cant free run on rooftops like you can so running around a corner and climbing to a roof gets me out of danger fast. but if im indoors than along the way to where the objective is i try and remember where are all these closets i can hide inside. if poop hits the ventilator i pop a smoke and run for such closet.
also when u r discovered you can see the hidng spots on the minimap as blue triangles. also if u use eagle vision u see closets glow. there are many ways to finding where to hide. you need to learn the game. i play without the minimap so its a little more tricky for me, but i manage.

but the easiest tip i can give you on how to vanish, which is a simple exploit of the AI - if you are chased - run towards a hiding spot (closet or haystack or whathaveyou) and once enemies are around you THEN you drop smoke and jump into hiding. in really old AC games the AI would check in hay stacks but not in ACU. here they are like "that is weird - we were chasing this dude next to this haystack, and then smoke, and now he's gone. there is nothing here but this large haystack.... oh well. back to my post...."

p.s. - i would love to have more combat options, as long as they are balanced. meat shield could be brought back but IMO the best way to implement it is you can only use a guard as a meat shield is if he is staggering after a hit, a stagger strike or parry. not at ANY time. and then you grab him for a second and then he gets away (unless dead). and if no one is aiming when you try and grab him than its a small throw (like old AC games where you could throw one enemy onto another to get them to fall.
if you can EITHER hurt and enemy OR cause him or his friend to fall (and be out of the fight for a few seconds) than its balanced. in ACIV for example there was no reason to knock enemies down because you could kill them instead. same with disarming them.

also i think disarming could be brought back but it needs to be hard to do, or only be possible on low health enemy who is 2 hits from dying or something, and once the enemy is disarmed he stays away from you. he doesnt stay there to get slaughtered but he stays away from you. you try and hit him - he runs slightly farther. and that AI will try to pick up a weapon the moment he can. so again - a disarm isnt an easier way to kill the enemy. otherwise you'd always do that. but its a way to keep the enemy away from the fight.
every option should have upside and downside. AC games gave you counter kills and kill streaks which had NO downsides - therefor unbalanced.
i feel Unity has very few options that only has upsides. only heavy attack is OP... but at least its a little slow....

Well i guess you got lucky when you had to run away from the guards. I will admit it wasn't in every mission, but there were a few where i had to sneak into a crowded military base to sabotage some cannons. Which was next to impossible to stealth into since there were no buildings to whittle down your opponents on. Then when my cover got blown, which was very often because of the lack of hiding spots in the area, the entire area came charging after me and I would have to run to a whole other section of town to get away from them. I tried that disguise thing, but it didn't last long enough to be of any worth... If i could fight like i did in the old games, that mission wouldn't have been a problem. I spammed smoke bombs and health potions like crazy and always ran out before i could complete the mission.

ziljn
01-23-2015, 07:31 PM
to you killing 20 guards was fun. to others it was... trivial. and some ppl dont like trivial. i was not having any fun in AC3 and ACIV, for example. chopping enemies was as tense and exciting as chopping salad - it had to be done and i can zone out when i do it until its over.... what game company would want me to zone out when i play their game? i find it kinda insulting to the game, where you can shut off your brain when playing...

That's the thing. I don't find Unity combat tense or exciting either. I find it laborious, boring, and lacking variety. What game company wants me to be bored when I play their game?


also, more options does not mean deeper. it sometimes just mean more redundancy. in ACU there are less options but its deeper since they are more useful. so in fact in older ACU i had a lot of options i didnt know how to use cuz i never needed them (bombs, rope dart.... stealth in general).

Logic fail

More options means more options, which means variety. Having options you choose not to use does not mean they are useless, it just means they aren't necessary.Thus, having fewer options in a scaled down system makes the few options you have more necessary, not more useful, and necessary does not mean "depth". It's no "deeper" than any other AC system. It's just less and slower.


i just think that in a game where you want to promote stealth you must make combat-to-stealth balanced.... and this was never ACs thing. ACU is the first step in the right direction and i wonder if UBI can satisfy all of its fans... though it does seem impossible.

I'm liking the mission designs and new stealth mechanic (finally can sneak!!!) and I do think that's heading in the right direction. I just find the combat boring as hell, which admittedly does promote stealth for me, but I don't think that's what they were going for ;).

Megas_Doux
01-23-2015, 10:34 PM
Sadly enough, the majority of AC fans are/were accustomed to that 5 years old "difficulty". Being this invincible force of nature able to go through dozens of enemies at the same with the MINIMAL effort - key concept in my opinion- from the very beginning of the game. And not only that, but also carry 73484708472420840 weapons and 9483049823094820948204 units of ammo.

*Minimal effort indeed, for the majority of AC fans are lazy as hell.

YazX_
01-24-2015, 12:32 AM
Sadly enough, the majority of AC fans are/were accustomed to that 5 years old "difficulty". Being this invincible force of nature able to go through dozens of enemies at the same with the MINIMAL effort - key concept in my opinion- from the very beginning of the game. And not only that, but also carry 73484708472420840 weapons and 9483049823094820948204 units of ammo.

*Minimal effort indeed, for the majority of AC fans are lazy as hell.

while what you are saying is 100% true but this is how the game has been introduced to us, you are the master assassin who can take 1000000 enemies without a scratch, even in trailers its the same, so after 6 releases you are now weak and cannot take 5 enemies without smoke bombs and other weapons is just wrong and my point still stands, this hasnt make the combat harder rather than boring and takes too much time to kill enemies, this combat system is flawed in every single aspect and to add more, the essential skills required for combat are locked, those are base skills and this whole skills system doesnt fit into AC series, maybe because they took out all base Assassin skills and locked it without adding new stuff except few things but as an AC game you shouldnt have anything locked especially the ridiculous lock picking level 3 which can only be unlocked after sequence 9, thats like telling you dont collect chests until you complete that sequence.

Anyway, You are playing as master assassin not as any assassin, yes there is a learning curve and previous AC games did that perfectly but not in the flawed way that Unity has.

DemonLord4lf
01-24-2015, 01:17 AM
while what you are saying is 100% true but this is how the game has been introduced to us, you are the master assassin who can take 1000000 enemies without a scratch, even in trailers its the same, so after 6 releases you are now weak and cannot take 5 enemies without smoke bombs and other weapons is just wrong and my point still stands, this hasnt make the combat harder rather than boring and takes too much time to kill enemies, this combat system is flawed in every single aspect and to add more, the essential skills required for combat are locked, those are base skills and this whole skills system doesnt fit into AC series, maybe because they took out all base Assassin skills and locked it without adding new stuff except few things but as an AC game you shouldnt have anything locked especially the ridiculous lock picking level 3 which can only be unlocked after sequence 9, thats like telling you dont collect chests until you complete that sequence.

Anyway, You are playing as master assassin not as any assassin, yes there is a learning curve and previous AC games did that perfectly but not in the flawed way that Unity has.

YAY!!! I gotz a modz on my sidez :D


ahem....


anyways...

<.<


I do agree to a degree that this new combat system was a good idea in theory. However, they completely gutted it and just left us with the scraps and locked everything else away. The whole lockpick thing confused me, but i understand it was something new. Combat shouldn't have to feel like a chore. Assassin's creed has always been about stealth and combat working together. You can quietly work your way into a crowd and kill your target, or if you screw that up, kill a bunch of the guards and go after the target. However, battles with someone who has combat training shouldn't be easy. The random thugs on the streets don't have combat training, so the fact they can match me blow to blow is puzzling. Now if i was going up against a trained soldier i would expect him to be able to match me blow to blow. I truly hope they find a better medium between stealth and combat then they have here in Unity.

xPLAY3R1x
01-24-2015, 04:40 AM
The biggest thing the Unity combat system does is work *against* the power fantasy it's trying to portray, IMO.

We play games like FC, AC, SC and others because we are *not* master stealth soldiers who can slip into heavily guarded facilities (past, present, or future), accomplish an almost impossible objective and escape unscathed... Even if we have to dispatch some enemies silently and *quickly*. That's where the fun comes in. Of course, none of this is real... The fact the AC settings are a Matrix-like meta game is just icing on the cake... But that's the point. I don't want to play some combat simulator where if I get hit once, game over. Nor do I want to take on enemies who should *not* have the combat training an Assassin has since they are the Special Forces of History, more or less. I used the previous analogy of a weekend huntsman being able to take out a seasoned Special Forces Operator who has been on hundreds of covert ops. That wouldn't make any sense in the real world, and it doesn't make sense in the fictional world AC is trying to maintain.

Aside from lore... I feel like I am talking in circles... The game mechanics themselves are just unbalanced, too simplified and not fun to endure. I've gone over the fact the biggest thing on the player's end is a lot of the actual freedom of combat is taken away from the player at almost every turn DURING combat e.g. finishers not being able to be canceled, camera zooming in and obscuring enemies on the peripheral with guns, etc. The other big fender I also mentioned is many of the mission designs are based around open combat for the most part.

There is a side-mission called "Swiss Stash" where you have to steal gold located at four different locations. Well, in classic Unity style, one of these locations is one of those barn / loft places with ONE way in: The front door on the ground floor. Of course, there are four guards inside the barn, plus a sniper up in the loft where the two chests you are supposed raid are located. lept from the rooftop of an adjoining apartment building onto the roof of the barn. I silently killed the sniper up top and then managed to drop down the front of the building to where there is a small access space between the top of the front wall and the open I-beams of the roof. I thought I could just shimmy, or swing from I-beam to I-beam to the loft directly across from the entrance, silently above the horde of guards below, but... No. Of course, not. That would be logical and we can't have that because that would mean A) Somebody tested the mission, and B) That stealth was a real option and not just lip service.

This is a perfect example of how most of the missions... aside from campaign assassinations... Are not designed well at all, IMO. They are about one thing and one thing only 90% of the time: Open combat.

Why?

Because it's easier than stealth since Unity is not really a stealth game even though they give you stealth options... sort of. Stealth requires patience and thinking versus button mashing and blood spurting... The big difference being in previous AC games the blood splattering approach was fun and kept within the lore the game was trying to promote vs. work against it at every turn to make it frustrating and illogical to the point it is over complicated more than it has to be, IMO.

SixKeys
01-24-2015, 09:02 AM
while what you are saying is 100% true but this is how the game has been introduced to us, you are the master assassin who can take 1000000 enemies without a scratch, even in trailers its the same, so after 6 releases you are now weak and cannot take 5 enemies without smoke bombs and other weapons is just wrong and my point still stands, this hasnt make the combat harder rather than boring and takes too much time to kill enemies, this combat system is flawed in every single aspect and to add more, the essential skills required for combat are locked, those are base skills and this whole skills system doesnt fit into AC series, maybe because they took out all base Assassin skills and locked it without adding new stuff except few things but as an AC game you shouldnt have anything locked especially the ridiculous lock picking level 3 which can only be unlocked after sequence 9, thats like telling you dont collect chests until you complete that sequence.

Anyway, You are playing as master assassin not as any assassin, yes there is a learning curve and previous AC games did that perfectly but not in the flawed way that Unity has.

I disagree. ACU is bringing back the idea from AC1, which is that you are NOT a master assassin, nor are master assassins invincible. Al Mualim was a master assassin and he got killed by his own student. AltaÔr started the game as a master assassin but was demoted. If master assassins were amazing fighters, then he should have been a tank even after being demoted, but he wasn't. He had to earn the right to call himself a true master. It was the Ezio games that inexplicably introduced a pampered son of a nobleman who was somehow an expert fighter at age 17 before receiving any formal training. Considering AC2 served as the entry point into the series for a lot of people, the idea that you're supposed to be an invincible killing machine somehow became accepted as if it was always meant to be like that. But that is a false assumption.

The whole idea behind AC1's emphasis on social stealth was that combat should be your last resort. You're supposed to be clever and resourceful and manipulative. AC2 turned all that on its head when it made combat easy as hell, and they knew they effed up because they created mandatory stealth missions where your progress got reset if you failed.
If all your gameplay elements are balanced, you shouldn't need insta-fail states. But they knew people would just fight their way through every situation without ever bothering with the other core gameplay pillars, so they made mandatory stealth sections to create the illusion that stealth was still vital.

Unity is the first game in 7 years to have a more balanced approach to both stealth and combat so insta-fail states aren't needed, and people complain because they don't think that's how it was always meant to be. Go back and play AC1 for a while. Take on a few Templar knights head-on in a sword fight while you're still a low-level novice, then tell me combat was always meant to be super easy.

VestigialLlama4
01-24-2015, 10:53 AM
I disagree. ACU is bringing back the idea from AC1, which is that you are NOT a master assassin, nor are master assassins invincible.

This is incredibly naive misreading and wilfull projection. AC1 began with Altair as a Master Assassin. He is THE ACE of all Assassins. Did you not see how Kadar (Malik's kid brother) is greatful to kiss the great Altair's shadow, how he struts like an Alpha Male at the beginning. He gets a lesson in hard knocks from Robert de Sable, a really tall, tough, armored brute of a Knight and gets a lesson for being brash and stupid. It doesn't follow from getting his a-- handed to him by someone tougher, stronger and at a more advantageous vantage point, that Altair cannot kill a bunch of Street Guards in a melee.


Al Mualim was a master assassin and he got killed by his own student.

"I have killed a thousand man. All of them better than you."
- Al Mualim.

That student was his greatest, a prodigy and the best Assassin. You make it read like he got killed by a rookie rather than a fellow killing-machine.


AltaÔr started the game as a master assassin but was demoted. If master assassins were amazing fighters, then he should have been a tank even after being demoted, but he wasn't. He had to earn the right to call himself a true master.

No, that's not the point at all. The Master Assassin rank is just a title that he has to regain for himself, it isn't tied to ability and skill as a fighter. Combat in AC1 in the early stages isn't especially hard at all, and intentinonally so. Becoming a Master Assassin isn't tied to physical ability, its tied to fulfilling the Creed and understanding what a true Assassin is.

The point of Altair's journey through the game is Assassins are stealthy and minimize violence because they choose to do so. It better suits their purpose and methods. Being an Assassin is about freedom, free to enter and exit, free to move from high and lows and blend in any crowd. It's not that Altair is too weak and can't be a warrior, he can, its just that he's into efficiency, speed and minimum fuss, which is why he has that whole aura of stone-cold professionalism around him. The Assassins feel their way is better not because they don't like combat, its just way more fun than moving around in bulky armour and chainmail like the Templar Knights do so. Altair regaining his Master Assassin is about learning the Creed agian. Altair is brash and arrogant not because he's too weak a fighter but because it gets other people killed and it compromises his organization and activity. This whole notion of Assassins being Assassins because they are weak fighters is an imposition from other stealth games like the original Thief (where given the main character is a crook rather than a medieval revolutionary/philsopher/hitman like an Assassin it makes sense he'd not be a tough fighter). It has nothing to do with the original games which were never intended to be pure stealth games.


It was the Ezio games that inexplicably introduced a pampered son of a nobleman who was somehow an expert fighter at age 17 before receiving any formal training.

Huh, he runs away from the first fight with real enemies. He knows basic swordfighting (probably taught by his brother Frederico who Giovanni assigned to stealth-train Ezio in freerunning) and uses it to dispatch three guards that come for him before his father's execution. All his earlier fights are streetfighting.


Considering AC2 served as the entry point into the series for a lot of people, the idea that you're supposed to be an invincible killing machine somehow became accepted as if it was always meant to be like that. But that is a false assumption.

No it isn't. It's there from the very beginning. You are projecting. AC1 did have more emphasize on stealth than later games but to say that Altair was less of a killing machine or that Assassins can't be killing machines is a total misreading of the game metaphor from the very beginning. Stealth in Assassin's Creed games is about style, fun and freedom, its not because Assassins are cowards who can barely hold a sword.


Go back and play AC1 for a while. Take on a few Templar knights head-on in a sword fight while you're still a low-level novice, then tell me combat was always meant to be super easy.

I have recently replayed AC1 and I took out four Templar Knights in the Talal sequence in full combat.

YazX_
01-24-2015, 11:08 AM
I disagree. ACU is bringing back the idea from AC1, which is that you are NOT a master assassin, nor are master assassins invincible. Al Mualim was a master assassin and he got killed by his own student. AltaÔr started the game as a master assassin but was demoted. If master assassins were amazing fighters, then he should have been a tank even after being demoted, but he wasn't. He had to earn the right to call himself a true master. It was the Ezio games that inexplicably introduced a pampered son of a nobleman who was somehow an expert fighter at age 17 before receiving any formal training. Considering AC2 served as the entry point into the series for a lot of people, the idea that you're supposed to be an invincible killing machine somehow became accepted as if it was always meant to be like that. But that is a false assumption.

The whole idea behind AC1's emphasis on social stealth was that combat should be your last resort. You're supposed to be clever and resourceful and manipulative. AC2 turned all that on its head when it made combat easy as hell, and they knew they effed up because they created mandatory stealth missions where your progress got reset if you failed.
If all your gameplay elements are balanced, you shouldn't need insta-fail states. But they knew people would just fight their way through every situation without ever bothering with the other core gameplay pillars, so they made mandatory stealth sections to create the illusion that stealth was still vital.

Unity is the first game in 7 years to have a more balanced approach to both stealth and combat so insta-fail states aren't needed, and people complain because they don't think that's how it was always meant to be. Go back and play AC1 for a while. Take on a few Templar knights head-on in a sword fight while you're still a low-level novice, then tell me combat was always meant to be super easy.

Thats exactly my point and you are proving it, why do i want to play a 7 years old combat system which is flawed and boring since the beginning and thats why it got alot of changes in AC2, however, the point of AC2 and Ezio being master since the beginning is not correct, AC2 took an approach to level up Ezio gradually, at first you cannot take high level guards like agiles, brutes,.... and while the combat system didnt change much, it lacked the chain kills to eliminate the boring factor, then ACB came to fix that and its logical that you are now a master assassin and should be able to kill dozens of enemies in no time, ACR proceeded with that.

Then AC3 came out, they built upon that concept, although you are new assassin and starting to learn from scratch, there was no level up, just being trained and then you are master assassin, yes alot of people hated the combat system but i find it perfect taking into consideration the amount of soldiers and guns used, other than that it wouldnt fit and will be nearly impossible to enjoy the game.

AC4 came out with no single change to the combat and as a skilled pirate he didnt need any training to be a master assassin, so it still falls into this idea of being a superior assassin.

Now Unity came out, it went back to AC1 combat system which is flawed, outdated and boring in every single way, all these years and iterations, combat system is evolving to get better, but what they did in this game is like erasing everything that they have done to this system and went 7 years back. i dont care if Arno is not skilled or skilled when he joined the brotherhood, everything is wrong in this combat system combined with the skills that needed to be unlocked and the progress you need to achieve to unlock those core skills.

if i want to play AC1 combat system then i would go and play AC1 and shouldnt have to play a recent updated game with outdated flawed system like this, in addition,Unity doesnt have any balance between stealth and combat, it forces you to be stealthy in every single mission and aspect of this game, notice whenever you are detected, tons of enemies start pouring on you thats without mentioning gun shots that you never get a screen warning for them, it reminds me of AC3 but in AC3 you could kill every single guard without having any scratch unlike this one that you cannot even roll/counter when striking or doing finishers, people who like stealth finds this combat system perfect since they dont rely on it too much and when it happens they just vanish and dont bother to fight 100 enemies.

pacmanate
01-24-2015, 03:07 PM
I dont think the combat system is terrible, I quite like it. However its broken it other aspects like hit detection and animation transition which is rather annoying.

m4r-k7
01-24-2015, 03:50 PM
The new combat system was great. Finally in a recent AC game, they emphasised you as an assassin and not a warrior (like Connor and Edward were)

The difficulty of the combat was welcomed as you didn't want to get in to a fight with more than 5 guys - I tried to plan my assassinations wisely.

The problem wasnt the difficulty of the combat, it was the screwed up stealth system that didn't always work, and the fact that snipers had incredible eyes that could see you even if you weren't in their view.

Keep the difficulty, tweak the stealth system, give us back the human shield skill due to the more modern timeline (but make it hard to pull off) and decrease the accuracy of snipers and gun wielding opponents.

Shahkulu101
01-24-2015, 03:55 PM
Thats exactly my point and you are proving it, why do i want to play a 7 years old combat system which is flawed and boring since the beginning and thats why it got alot of changes in AC2, however, the point of AC2 and Ezio being master since the beginning is not correct, AC2 took an approach to level up Ezio gradually, at first you cannot take high level guards like agiles, brutes,.... and while the combat system didnt change much, it lacked the chain kills to eliminate the boring factor, then ACB came to fix that and its logical that you are now a master assassin and should be able to kill dozens of enemies in no time, ACR proceeded with that.

Then AC3 came out, they built upon that concept, although you are new assassin and starting to learn from scratch, there was no level up, just being trained and then you are master assassin, yes alot of people hated the combat system but i find it perfect taking into consideration the amount of soldiers and guns used, other than that it wouldnt fit and will be nearly impossible to enjoy the game.

AC4 came out with no single change to the combat and as a skilled pirate he didnt need any training to be a master assassin, so it still falls into this idea of being a superior assassin.

Now Unity came out, it went back to AC1 combat system which is flawed, outdated and boring in every single way, all these years and iterations, combat system is evolving to get better, but what they did in this game is like erasing everything that they have done to this system and went 7 years back. i dont care if Arno is not skilled or skilled when he joined the brotherhood, everything is wrong in this combat system combined with the skills that needed to be unlocked and the progress you need to achieve to unlock those core skills.

if i want to play AC1 combat system then i would go and play AC1 and shouldnt have to play a recent updated game with outdated flawed system like this, in addition,Unity doesnt have any balance between stealth and combat, it forces you to be stealthy in every single mission and aspect of this game, notice whenever you are detected, tons of enemies start pouring on you thats without mentioning gun shots that you never get a screen warning for them, it reminds me of AC3 but in AC3 you could kill every single guard without having any scratch unlike this one that you cannot even roll/counter when striking or doing finishers, people who like stealth finds this combat system perfect since they dont rely on it too much and when it happens they just vanish and dont bother to fight 100 enemies.

Combat did not evolve and get 'better'. It's was one of the most shallow, simplistic combat systems I've ever played. You could literally kill dozens of guys with your eyes closed, really I tried it. Took a few hits but all I has to do was spam counter and the attack button. There was no depth whatsoever.

You may prefer it - there's no shame in that - but claiming that the old systems are in any way good is ludicrous. These are stealth games first and foremost, the emphasis should be on staying unseen and silent infiltration. That's what an Assassin is, and the fact we weren't Assassin's in last games but invincible warriors is one of the series biggest problems.

xPLAY3R1x
01-24-2015, 04:31 PM
...if i want to play AC1 combat system then i would go and play AC1 and shouldnt have to play a recent updated game with outdated flawed system like this, in addition,Unity doesnt have any balance between stealth and combat, it forces you to be stealthy in every single mission and aspect of this game, notice whenever you are detected, tons of enemies start pouring on you thats without mentioning gun shots that you never get a screen warning for them, it reminds me of AC3 but in AC3 you could kill every single guard without having any scratch unlike this one that you cannot even roll/counter when striking or doing finishers, people who like stealth finds this combat system perfect since they dont rely on it too much and when it happens they just vanish and dont bother to fight 100 enemies.

I disagree... slightly.

I think the underlying problem is the game is NOT balanced because it doesn't know what it wants to be because of little, or no playtesting (or negative playtesting results that were ignored in favor of a Holiday launch).

It is forcing stealth because the alternative (open combat system) is terrible. That's not what a real stealth game does... Which is not what Unity is. Like I said, it has an identity crisis. It wants to be a stealth game, but half the stealth aspects are broken, or incomplete / clunky, so this leaves no alternative in a lot of situations other than open combat due to poor mission design I cited above.

To clarify, when I say poor mission design, I mean the side missions. The campaign missions are better, but not by much. The CO-OP missions are nothing but AI slayfests which means open combat 90% of the time. I know those who play actual CO-OP (with others) will say it all depends on how you do it and they can run through the missions without being detected and that's fine. However, playing some of these missions solo is near impossible to do with stealth. I know they are supposed to be harder alone, but I've watched plenty of YT videos where groups of online players just go in swords swinging, smoke bombs booming and guns blazing because it's actually faster than trying to be stealthy which is what the competitions are based around (points and speed).

SixKeys
01-24-2015, 05:38 PM
This is incredibly naive misreading and wilfull projection. AC1 began with Altair as a Master Assassin. He is THE ACE of all Assassins. Did you not see how Kadar (Malik's kid brother) is greatful to kiss the great Altair's shadow, how he struts like an Alpha Male at the beginning. He gets a lesson in hard knocks from Robert de Sable, a really tall, tough, armored brute of a Knight and gets a lesson for being brash and stupid. It doesn't follow from getting his a-- handed to him by someone tougher, stronger and at a more advantageous vantage point, that Altair cannot kill a bunch of Street Guards in a melee.

AltaÔr's attitude in the beginning is precisely WHY he's not a true master assassin. He's reckless, arrogant and disobeys the Creed at every turn. These traits make him weak, hence why Robert gets the jump on him and botches up the mission. He was demoted from a high rank to a novice because Al Mualim realized his trust in AltaÔr was misplaced. Take away his weapons and what have you got? A weak-*** assassin who can barely fend for himself. If he was truly a master assassin, he wouldn't need all his fancy equipment to take down high-ranking enemies. That's also what sets Ezio apart from AltaÔr. By the end of AC1, AltaÔr is truly a master assassin because he doesn't need smoke bombs, hook blades, double-handed axes, crossbows with endless ammo etc. etc. Ezio, on the other hand....

Kadar is blinded by AltaÔr's reputation. Malik shows himself to be wiser than both of them when he pleads AltaÔr not to disobey the Creed.



"I have killed a thousand man. All of them better than you."
- Al Mualim.

That student was his greatest, a prodigy and the best Assassin. You make it read like he got killed by a rookie rather than a fellow killing-machine.

My point was that Al Mualim was not invincible, which is what all master assassins should be, according to YazX. They can all be killed if they allow themselves to think they are better than the rest. Cesare may not have been an assassin, but arrogance was his mistake as well. He believed himself immortal with his whole "no man can murder me!". Then Ezio came and proved him wrong by simply pushing him off a wall.


No, that's not the point at all. The Master Assassin rank is just a title that he has to regain for himself, it isn't tied to ability and skill as a fighter. Combat in AC1 in the early stages isn't especially hard at all, and intentinonally so. Becoming a Master Assassin isn't tied to physical ability, its tied to fulfilling the Creed and understanding what a true Assassin is.

I disagree. The whole "Master Assassin as rank" wasn't even mentioned until ACB when you had to train recruits to a certain level. Before that it was just a descriptor. Malik was a better assassin than AltaÔr back at Solomon's Temple (he survived the fight with Robert and his men while AltaÔr botched up the whole mission), yet his rank was Novice. He was directly promoted to Dai afterwards (bureau leader) which as far as I understand it, is an even higher rank than simply someone who's good at fighting.

I also think there is some symbolism going on in AC1 with regard to AltaÔr's progression. You start out as invincible (AltaÔr at the battle of Masyaf when he has all his elite gear and skills) because that's who AltaÔr sees himself as. He believes himself invincible, therefore we see him as such. Then he gets demoted and we lose even basic abilities like counter and grab ledge. How can you simply "forget" how to do those things? IMO AltaÔr doesn't actually forget, it's symbolic for AltaÔr realizing he's not as good as he once thought he was. He's not only earning back his old rank, he's actively learning new skills. As he learns humility, we, the players, become more skilled and powerful - wiser, like a true master assassin. His rank is not tied to his strength and gear, it's tied to his journey of self-discovery.



Huh, he runs away from the first fight with real enemies. He knows basic swordfighting (probably taught by his brother Frederico who Giovanni assigned to stealth-train Ezio in freerunning) and uses it to dispatch three guards that come for him before his father's execution. All his earlier fights are streetfighting.

I did say formal training. The first time we see Ezio train is with Mario. Even before their training together, Ezio inexplicably knows things like how to counter (a skill AltaÔr had to learn after his demotion). So at age 17, Ezio was a more skilled fighter than AltaÔr, who starts his own game as a master assassin. I'm not sure how this fits your theory about master assassins being invincible.


No it isn't. It's there from the very beginning. You are projecting.


http://gifs.joelglovier.com/classics/you-keep-using-that-word.gif


AC1 did have more emphasize on stealth than later games but to say that Altair was less of a killing machine or that Assassins can't be killing machines is a total misreading of the game metaphor from the very beginning. Stealth in Assassin's Creed games is about style, fun and freedom, its not because Assassins are cowards who can barely hold a sword.

I never said any of that. Who's projecting now? :rolleyes:


I have recently replayed AC1 and I took out four Templar Knights in the Talal sequence in full combat.

You want a cookie or something? I can blaze through the whole game too these days because I've replayed it a dozen times. But for someone who starts with the Ezio games with their unbreakable turtling, 1500 gadgets, armor upgrades, hidden blade combat and kill streaks, going to AC1 is a brutal change of pace.

VestigialLlama4
01-24-2015, 05:57 PM
If he was truly a master assassin, he wouldn't need all his fancy equipment to take down high-ranking enemies.

But altair's equipment isn't fancy-***. It's just a sword, throwing knives and extra throwing knives. They are not super weapons at all.


That's also what sets Ezio apart from AltaÔr. By the end of AC1, AltaÔr is truly a master assassin because he doesn't need smoke bombs, hook blades, double-handed axes, crossbows with endless ammo etc. etc.

Ezio lived three centuries later, civilization progresses with newer and more creative ways to kill people. And in any case Altair himself got in on the learning curve, designing Armour, a Hidden Gun and finally saying okay to poison despite calling it a coward's weapon.


My point was that Al Mualim was not invincible, which is what all master assassins should be, according to YazX.

Yeah but your attitude is that there's no degree of difference between the extremes of God Mode and Fighting with a Single Healthbar.


IMO AltaÔr doesn't actually forget, it's symbolic for AltaÔr realizing he's not as good as he once thought he was. He's not only earning back his old rank, he's actively learning new skills. As he learns humility, we, the players, become more skilled and powerful - wiser, like a true master assassin. His rank is not tied to his strength and gear, it's tied to his journey of self-discovery.

I agree with this. The thing is this is tied to the gameplay itself. Assassins choose stealth because they prefer it as being superior and cooler than combat. Not because they are weaklings who can't fight of guards.


http://gifs.joelglovier.com/classics/you-keep-using-that-word.gif

Okay projection is, simply defined, taking a particular line of reasoning based on wish-fulfillment and selective bias. You are basing your argument on an AC1 by reimagining it to be tougher, stealthier and Altair more vulnerable than he actually is. Altair is a one-man-army in AC1, the combat is not especially hard and he is every bit the super-Assassin that Ezio is.


But for someone who starts with the Ezio games with their unbreakable turtling, 1500 gadgets, armor upgrades, hidden blade combat and kill streaks, going to AC1 is a brutal change of pace.

Not true, I came to the games with AC3 and went backwards to AC2 and then AC1. Believe me the combat in AC1 is not especially hard. I suppose it becomes this for first-time fans who were there from the beginning and then thought the combat was really hard compared to later games. It's less quick and smooth certainly but it is definitely not harder or challenging.

SixKeys
01-24-2015, 06:29 PM
Thats exactly my point and you are proving it, why do i want to play a 7 years old combat system which is flawed and boring since the beginning and thats why it got alot of changes in AC2,

But those changes were for the worse. You wanna talk about boring combat? AC2 has THE most boring combat in the entire series. Then they simply tweaked and built upon that boring system for 2 more games. Yet everyone keeps pining for the "glory days" of the Ezio trilogy, because they want combat to be a sleepwalk again.


however, the point of AC2 and Ezio being master since the beginning is not correct, AC2 took an approach to level up Ezio gradually, at first you cannot take high level guards like agiles, brutes,.... and while the combat system didnt change much, it lacked the chain kills to eliminate the boring factor, then ACB came to fix that and its logical that you are now a master assassin and should be able to kill dozens of enemies in no time, ACR proceeded with that.

That's simply not true. Ezio is able to take on all kinds of enemies from the beginning. Brutes may be the tiniest bit challenging, but you can even kill them in that early scene where Ezio witnesses his family's murder. They play that up as a no-win scenario, but you can easily kill everybody, which makes the following events seem nonsensical when Ezio is all "I had to escape, I'm not cut out for this!".

I like ACB's system simply because it's fluid, but you can hardly call it "fixing" when it just made combat even easier. That's like saying ACB's health system "fixed" AC2's because they made it literally impossible to die in combat. It's fun, but it's flawed. Kinda like a popcorn movie. Good for entertainment but not exactly cinema at its finest.



Then AC3 came out, they built upon that concept, although you are new assassin and starting to learn from scratch, there was no level up, just being trained and then you are master assassin, yes alot of people hated the combat system but i find it perfect taking into consideration the amount of soldiers and guns used, other than that it wouldnt fit and will be nearly impossible to enjoy the game.

I'm one of those who hated AC3's combat. And just like with AC2, storywise it makes no sense that Connor is a master fighter before he's been training with Achilles. I can buy that he knows something about fighting since he was raised among native warriors, but there is literally nothing we learn from Achilles that Connor doesn't already know during his first fight at the barn.


AC4 came out with no single change to the combat and as a skilled pirate he didnt need any training to be a master assassin, so it still falls into this idea of being a superior assassin.

AC4 has the second-worst combat system in the series. At least Edward has the excuse of being a grown man with lots of experience as a pirate.



Now Unity came out, it went back to AC1 combat system which is flawed, outdated and boring in every single way, all these years and iterations, combat system is evolving to get better, but what they did in this game is like erasing everything that they have done to this system and went 7 years back. i dont care if Arno is not skilled or skilled when he joined the brotherhood, everything is wrong in this combat system combined with the skills that needed to be unlocked and the progress you need to achieve to unlock those core skills.

Disagreed on every single sentence. :p The system is not really like AC1 at all, the only similarity is the (slight) challenge level. AC1's combat was based on countering and turtling. Essentially you only needed two buttons - attack and parry (all the others were little more than window-dressing). Unity has a couple more options, with the trinity of attack, parry and dodge plus the ability to use tools in combat. So Unity didn't actually return to a 7-year-old system.
What ACU did get right was taking a step back towards AC1's combat, not in form but in function. Neither system is perfect, but both of them are a hell of a lot better than what we got in the Ezio games or AC3. In the Ezio games, once you upgraded your armor, there was no going back. You couldn't make the game harder for yourself even if you tried. In Unity, "armor" is optional. If you want a bigger challenge, you can just equip low-level gear. In the Ezio and Connor games, weapon stats were cosmetic only. It literally didn't matter if you used the same basic sword through the entire game. In AC2, unlocking skills also made no sense. People complain that in ACU Arno has to learn basic things like blending on benches, but forget that Ezio had to buy (with in-game money!) basic combat skills like how to wield an axe. At least in Arno's case you can read "skill points" as XP. In Ezio's case, he literally walked into a training ring, paid 10 000 florins and magically learned how to throw sand in someone's eyes.



if i want to play AC1 combat system then i would go and play AC1 and shouldnt have to play a recent updated game with outdated flawed system like this, in addition,Unity doesnt have any balance between stealth and combat, it forces you to be stealthy in every single mission and aspect of this game, notice whenever you are detected, tons of enemies start pouring on you thats without mentioning gun shots that you never get a screen warning for them, it reminds me of AC3 but in AC3 you could kill every single guard without having any scratch unlike this one that you cannot even roll/counter when striking or doing finishers, people who like stealth finds this combat system perfect since they dont rely on it too much and when it happens they just vanish and dont bother to fight 100 enemies.

Our gaming experiences seem to differ in this aspect since I don't have the "telepathic guards" problem like in AC3 in my Unity. Guards behave logically most of the time, it's easy to tell who is detecting me and from which direction, and even if things go south, I can still fight my way through unlike AC3 where guards just kept pouring in from all over town, even if there was no logical way for them to know who or where I was.

Unity's system is not a step back to AC1 because they are two different systems. It is a step back only in the sense that combat is finally somewhat challenging again.

topeira1980
01-24-2015, 07:55 PM
everything SixKeys says

agreed.

the only thing i slighly disagree, and that is from memory, is the similarity to AC1 combat. in AC1 you had heavy attacks and defense breaks, just like in ACU and there are quit a few differences. as you said - in AC1 there is a counter kill mechanism which was one of the two core problems in that system. the other was the regenerating health.... which, in fact, was the issue with EVERY ac game.
there was this notion that once you lose ALL health and have ZERO health, the screen flashes but you still remain alive. then, if no one hits you in the next 3 seconds than small health chunk replenishes. but since avoiding damage was so easy (holding block, mostly) than even, if by some miracle, you really sucked at combat and somehow lost all the 200 health chunks you had by the end of the game than you can maintain many fights on that last chunk of health alone.

also i have very few issues with the stealth in ACU. i know WHY the see me. i know HOW to avoid being seen. i dont mind snipers see me from afar since i can see them just as well and we both have eyes so.... why wouldnt they see me. if anything - its weird that the rest of the guards cant see me this well.

and the most irrelevant argumentens that are going on in this thread, and i really think should stop, is the lore. ezio was this good, al-tailr was that good, connor was supposed to be bad or good....
all this is irrelevant. UBI didnt change the combat system because of lore. it changes things because of gameplay design reasons. the fact that as Arno i can kill even 4 enemies is enough to fit with the lore of him being an assassin, since there is no one in the game world of ACU that can take on more than 2 or 3 enemies at a time. just because in other games you could kill 100 enemies because of the design choices of 5 years ago or whatever doesnt mean that in ACU you are a worse assassin in comparison. the mechanics are different for GAMEPLAY reasons and that is it. it has nothing to do with arno not fitting the lore and that he isnt a master assassin because combat is harder. combat is harder because of game design choices made by UBI that had a lot of reasons that has nothing to do with the story. the fact that you can do everything you can do in ACU (finish a mission. any mission) is because you are a good assassin and the mechanics support that notion.

and please, enough with the argument that "why can a street thug match arno in every move? it means that arno isnt fitting the master assassin lore"
this argument has two flaws, as far as i can see -
1) according to the lore arno trained for 1 year before unleashed in sequence 3. 1 year. ONE! there is no proffession you can get really good at after 1 year. after 10 or 15 - perhaps. but the entire game of Unity doesnt span 15 years so in LORE reasons he should never be able to kill 100 guards. also his ranking isnt master assassin when u start the game. he is a novice. to earn the title you need to play more than the entire story and a lot of side missions as well.

but since i completely disregard the lore for having any connection with if combat is fitting or not , i give no.2 -

2) if you find ANY guard hard and able to match you in a 1vs1 (or even 1vs2) fight than you, as a player, isnt good enough. by using light attacks and stagger strikes alone you can take out ANY enemy (besides the defenders) without needing to parry.... or without being attacked. seekers and officers can perfect parry you, but if they do is because you are not playing good. it only happens if you attack light attacks 3 times in a row. but why would you do that if you know its a bad move? if you do than it's your fault. your character is an assassin but you need to play like an assassin a bit as well. so stop being bad and adapt. learn the bloody game and get ever so slightly better.
in my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6tldfMM89c
does it look like anyone can match me? is it not obvious that arno is a master assassin and no one is as good as he is?
yes. i die a couple of times there, and i am not hiding the fact that combat CAN kill me, but i dont think arno, in this game, looks anything less than the most skilled fighter in paris.

in most other AC games you had agiles or captains that you just simply couldnt hit. even the glorious ezio couldnt land a hit against a captain or an agile. did u complain back then that he is not a master assassin? that it doesnt make sense? you HAD to counter them to kill them.
at least in ACU there isnt any enemy that you cant hit when you want to.

i also agree with SixKeys when he says that UBI is changing the combat not to a worse system. they are FIXING what they felt was wrong with the game. they made a strange turn of a stealth game in AC2 and since development on ACU started , if i am not mistaken, BEFORE developing AC3 (i think someone said even right after AC:B) than it means that they tried to fix the problem with the perception of the game pretty early on after the noticed they lost track of what AC was supposed to be.
UBI promoted AC1 as a stealth game where you are not supposed to fight openly.... so implied the trailers. so said jade raymont back then. but they lost track of that. they tried to take stuff from batman:arkham asylum in AC:B but they didnt balance it right and made combat even easier.
as SixKeys said - since stealth was so poorly implemented and was unnecessary in AC games they FORCED the player to be stealthy in certain missions just the action oriented players would use stealth once in a while.

in ACU they are much more certain you WILL be stealthy (because of better harder combat, as they intended) they removed the limitations and forcing players to be stealthy. they new it would organically happen.

as it should.

in DISHONORED you are an assassin but that game never forced you into stealth and it let you be a really really good sword fighter.... but combat was hard enough to make you be stealthy cuz you had to. same as if you play Farcry on harder difficulty or if you play splinter cell.
this is what UBI wanted for AC, made some bad design choices, were critisized for it and no trying to change things. they removed what made combat the be all end all of any mission problem (counter kills and chain kills and regenerating health) and... that's practically all they needed to do to better balance combat.
i hope more of the features they removed will be back, but with a mind set on keeping things balanced and combat - hard (enough)

you know - with all the errors of how bad was the rease of ACU i think UBI has huge balls in taking a franchise that felt stale and change things on such a fundemental level to match a new vision for the series. this is something no COD or Battlefield would ever do. very few games will undergo such a change. UBI new this will alienate some of the fans, even if will buy some new ones , and did it anyway.

much respect.

obviously half of the ppl on this thread alone will say it was a bad move, while the other half will say it was a welcomed one, but not denying it is something rarely seen in the industry these days. IMO it payed off and im impressed.

p.s. - sorry for all the typos and bad english. not time to review this post :P