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View Full Version : Oleg, which Spitfire is in the wrong place?



Hunde_3.JG51
03-08-2004, 05:01 PM
Sorry if this has been reported already but in the game the Spitifres look like this:

Spitfire Mk.Vb 1941
Spitfire Mk.Vb 1943 CW
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb 1942
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb 1944 CW


Here is your list from aircraft flyables:

Spitfire Mk.Vb (Merlin 45) 1941
Spitfire Mk.Vb (Merlin 46) 1942 clipped wings
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb (Merlin 50) 1943
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb (Merlin 50) 1944 clipped wings


Which one is wrong? Should the LF.V's be in '42 & '44, or should they be in '43 & '44?



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Hunde_3.JG51
03-08-2004, 05:01 PM
Sorry if this has been reported already but in the game the Spitifres look like this:

Spitfire Mk.Vb 1941
Spitfire Mk.Vb 1943 CW
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb 1942
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb 1944 CW


Here is your list from aircraft flyables:

Spitfire Mk.Vb (Merlin 45) 1941
Spitfire Mk.Vb (Merlin 46) 1942 clipped wings
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb (Merlin 50) 1943
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb (Merlin 50) 1944 clipped wings


Which one is wrong? Should the LF.V's be in '42 & '44, or should they be in '43 & '44?



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hop2002
03-08-2004, 06:54 PM
The Mk 5 clipped wing definately belongs in 42. The Lf V belongs in 43, clipped wings or not.

Clipping the wings began in 42, and would have been done to most LF Vs when they werefirst introduced in mid 43.

Hunde_3.JG51
03-08-2004, 07:16 PM
Wow, so the way it is in the "list of flyables" thread is correct and the way they are placed in-game is incorrect? It sort of looks like an error the way they are out of order in game. This would make my A-4 in '42 very happy if they would change it to match list at top of this page (ORR).

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Koohullin
03-08-2004, 07:16 PM
I have asked why the 46 Merlin, which was the higher rated, is said to a LF and clipped wings, but no one has answered. Not saying it was not but seems illogical.


This was over at SimHQ

Supermarine Aviation(Vickers)

2cd order built as
Mk VA, VB
April - Oct '41

3rd order built as
Mk V
July '40 - Jan '41

4th order built as
PR MkIV, F VB, VC, F IV
Aug '41 - Feb '42

5th order built as
PR Mk IV, F VB, VC, F VI, F VII, F IX
Feb '42 - Nov '42

6th order ???

7th order built as
PR IV, VC, F VI, F VII, F IX, PR XI, F XII
Nov '42 - Aug '43


Vickers Armstrong(Castle Bromwich)

1st order built as
Mk IIA, IIB, VA, VB
June '40 - July '41

2cd order built as
Mk VB
July '41 - Nov '41

3rd order built as
Mk VB
Nov '41 - May '42

4th order built as
VB, VC
Apr '42 - Aug '42

5th order built as
VB, VC
Aug '42 - Dec '42

6th order built as
VC, Mk IX
Dec '42 - Apr '43

7th order cancelled

8th order built as
VC, Mk IX
Mar '43 - Jun '43

9th order built as
VC, Mk IX, XVI
Jul '43 - May '44


Westland Aircraft

1st order built as
Mk I, VB, VC
Jul '41 - Sept '42

2cd order built as
Mk VC
Sept '42 - Feb '43

3rd order built as
Mk VC
Feb ' 43 - Nov '43


I see no 1944 production for Spitfire Vbs. From the list, the last VB was produced in Dec. 1942

hop2002
03-08-2004, 07:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wow, so the aircraft list of flyables is correct and the way they are placed in-game is incorrect? It sort of looks like an error the way they are out of order in game. This would make my A-4 in '42 very happy if they would change it to match list at top of this page (ORR).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. The Mk V Spits both seem to be modelled on a 9lbs boost Merlin, which did about 475 km/h at sea level. By mid 42, they were using 16lbs boost, and doing 510 km/h at sea level, with a coresponding increase in climb rate. Before that, they'd been using 12 lbs boost, which gave about 500 km/h at sea level.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I see no 1944 production for Spitfire Vbs. From the list, the last VB was produced in Dec. 1942<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only that, but the later Mk Vb had the belt feed for the cannon, and 120 rpg.

biggs222
03-08-2004, 07:38 PM
hop the later mkVb with the 120rpg belt fed ammo was the mkV with the later "universal wing", it could house either 4 303s per wing, 2 303s and 1 20mm, or 2 20mm... im sure u know this already, it is the wing that the mkIX was equipped with.

in AEP the later mkVb does not have the universal wing so it cant have the 120rpg.

Koohullin
03-08-2004, 08:13 PM
Does not the suffex letter designate which wing was used? I am curious how a VB can have a C wing.

Fillmore
03-08-2004, 09:00 PM
"I have asked why the 46 Merlin, which was the higher rated, is said to a LF and clipped wings, but no one has answered"

well, looking at the charts it isn't LF. Both the LFs (CW and standard) use the 50 Merlin. I assume the 46 Merlin is on the CW (non LF) and the 45 on the non CW (non LF) because the CW came later ('42 instead of '43).

Hunde_3.JG51
03-08-2004, 10:17 PM
You guys are confusing me a bit here. So if both the LF.'s use the Merlin 50 then they should be the '43 & '44 version (as in flyables list) right, not the '42 & '44 version (as in-game)?

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xTHRUDx
03-08-2004, 10:54 PM
i just wish the fuel guage worked

Erbriac
03-08-2004, 11:20 PM
As I understand the outcome of the posts above, it should be this way:

Spitfire Mk.Vb 1941 (Merlin 45)
Spitfire Mk.Vb 1942 CW (Merlin 46)
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb 1943 (Merlin 50)
Spitfire LF.Mk.Vb 1943 CW (Merlin 50)

****************************
312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
****************************

Hunde_3.JG51
03-09-2004, 12:05 AM
Exactly as I felt Ebriac, LF.'s should be in '43, but both the clipped and non-clipped. Clipped F. should be '42.

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RAF74_Buzzsaw
03-09-2004, 02:55 AM
Salute

What people are failing to understand, is that it is not just the Merlin 50 which was equipped with the cropped supercharger. The 'M' designation was applied to all Merlins equipped with this modification.

There were 45M's and 46M's as well. And they had essentially the same power output and hp as the 50's.

If you look at the production serials of the Mark V's, you will see that interspersed between the standard Merlin 45's and 46's are M models of both engine types.

The other fact, is that not all Merlin 50's were M models. Some were built as high altitude varieties, although they were few in number.

By Spring '43, most of the Spitfire V's were being built with M type engines, although they were not nessesarily 50's. For example on February 4th '43, model JL185 was built with a Merlin 45M.

Koohullin
03-09-2004, 04:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74BuzzsawXO:
Salute

What people are failing to understand, is that it is not just the Merlin 50 which was equipped with the cropped supercharger. The 'M' designation was applied to all Merlins equipped with this modification.

There were 45M's and 46M's as well. And they had essentially the same power output and hp as the 50's.

If you look at the production serials of the Mark V's, you will see that interspersed between the standard Merlin 45's and 46's are M models of both engine types.

The other fact, is that not all Merlin 50's were M models. Some were built as high altitude varieties, although they were few in number.

By Spring '43, most of the Spitfire V's were being built with M type engines, although they were not nessesarily 50's. For example on February 4th '43, model JL185 was built with a Merlin 45M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No Buzzsaw, there was no Merlin 46Ms. Only 45M, 50M and 55M engines. The Merlin 46 was the 'higher' rated engine for which cropping the impellor would be a wasted effort. There is none listed in the chart on pg 608 Appendix VI
The Spitfire: The History. 1st Issue

Merlins were rated at

45 - 9250ft

45M - 2750ft

46 - 14,000ft

50 - 9250ft

50M - 2750ft

55 - 9250ft

55M - 2750ft

The M gave the engine an ~100hp increase at its rated altitude over the plain(designation) engine's hp at its rated altitude

JG53Frankyboy
03-09-2004, 05:23 AM
than the question would realy be - what Merlin50s has the AEP LF.MkV.

thats realy a difference http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
50 - 9250ft
50M - 2750ft

btw, has the Clipped Wings any effect in the game ????
shouldnt it improve , as the main factor, the rollrate a LOT.
well my impression , and a short stopped test , makes me thinking there is no effect at all in rollrate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
any experiences ?

Kwiatos
03-09-2004, 06:19 AM
Good page about Spitfire performance at different engines:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spitv.html

Hunde_3.JG51
03-09-2004, 01:53 PM
Just one bump to see if Oleg will say which list is correct/what was intended.

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faustnik
03-09-2004, 02:02 PM
March 1941: Deliveries of the new Spitfire V begin.

October 1942: First flight of the 'clipped wing Spitfire, Mk. VB AA937. Flight testing revealed a considerably improved roll rate and greater speed at low/medium altitudes.


April 1943: In conjunction with the clipped wings developed for the Spitfire to improve its roll rate at the expense of altitude performance, tests begin ot the Merlin 50M with a smaller diameter supercharger impeller which provided maximum boost ( +18 ) and power at low altitude. Equipped with a negative 'g' carburator, the 50M produced 1585hp at only 3,800 ft. The Merlin 45M (with standard carburator) and 55M (two piece cylinder block) were similarly modified and rated, these the equivalent of the standard Merlin 45, 50, and 55 with normal impeller. Spitfire LF.Vs modified with clipped wings and 'M' series engines were referred to as being 'clipped, cropped and clapped', the later alluding to their often well used condition when they were converted.
- from "Spitfire", Stewart Wilson

Spit VB - 1941
Spit VB Clipped - 1942
Spit LF VB - 1943
Spit LF VB Clipped - 1943

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faustnik
03-09-2004, 02:04 PM
sorry, wrong button

RAF74_Buzzsaw
03-09-2004, 02:58 PM
Salute Koohulin

You are correct in regards to the Merlin 46.

However, the essence of my point, that being that there were multiple varieties of engines which were equipped with the cropped supercharger remains correct.

And I was also correct in noting that the early engines with the Cropped supercharger, ie. 45M, were equipping Spitfire V's in 1942.

Since you also have 'SPITFIRE, A HISTORY', then you can also note by looking through serials that Spitfire V's were coming off the production line with M rated engines in 1942 and even 1941.

I have only done a brief search of the serials, but that was enough to discover that Spitfire V Serial number AR275 came off the production line on December 16th 1941 equipped with a Merlin 45M.

I'm sure with a bit more searching, I could discover more examples.

So it is clear that Spitfire V LF's were in operation in 1942.

Faustnik: Your assumption that the cropped supercharger only came in service in April '43 is incorrect.

Koohullin
03-09-2004, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"I have asked why the 46 Merlin, which was the higher rated, is said to a LF and clipped wings, but no one has answered"

well, looking at the charts it isn't LF. Both the LFs (CW and standard) use the 50 Merlin. I assume the 46 Merlin is on the CW (non LF) and the 45 on the non CW (non LF) because the CW came later ('42 instead of '43).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooopps, me bad.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Came out wrong.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif A CW, to me, means a fighter for low altitude. This might be a wrong assumption but,

from The Spitfire: The History, it states that the CW was developed for "low altitude duty". So am curious as to why the higher altitude rated 46 has CW?

I am still curious as to why there is a 1944 VB.

faustnik
03-09-2004, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74BuzzsawXO:

Faustnik: Your assumption that the cropped supercharger only came in service in April '43 is incorrect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, doesn't the LF in FB have the Merlin 50?

If so, wouldn't it be 1943?

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