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View Full Version : Gunners Muzzle Flash Overdone?



LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 05:36 AM
Uhg! I almost hate bring this one up because of all the fuss over muzzle flash on the fighters. However, I finally flew in a coop at the waist gunners position in a HE-111 during a sunny afternoon mission and you couldn't see nothin' of what you were shooting at because of the muzzle flash. I don't have any experience running Kraut WWII era waist guns in real life. My referrence in this matter would be .50's or even twin and quad .50's and they just didn't give in real life the enormous muzzle flash I get when firing my gun in the HE-111. So, I really don't want to hear from those who "think" they know what's right. How much muzzle flash did those guns really produce? If it was that much, how'd the HE-111's ever make it to the target much less back to leiderhosen land?

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 05:36 AM
Uhg! I almost hate bring this one up because of all the fuss over muzzle flash on the fighters. However, I finally flew in a coop at the waist gunners position in a HE-111 during a sunny afternoon mission and you couldn't see nothin' of what you were shooting at because of the muzzle flash. I don't have any experience running Kraut WWII era waist guns in real life. My referrence in this matter would be .50's or even twin and quad .50's and they just didn't give in real life the enormous muzzle flash I get when firing my gun in the HE-111. So, I really don't want to hear from those who "think" they know what's right. How much muzzle flash did those guns really produce? If it was that much, how'd the HE-111's ever make it to the target much less back to leiderhosen land?

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

p1ngu666
08-16-2004, 07:19 AM
same on tb3, bf110, dont think the il2 is so bad tho
yeah its a right pain http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

Rab03
08-16-2004, 07:30 AM
Very large at night. Invisible during daylight.

Flashing in the night is very disturbing for eyesight.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2004, 08:11 AM
ALL muzzle flash is overdone.

Just for your edification, the current design team excuse for why this cannot be fixed is that 'the effect is averaged for both night and day', so we get the blinding NIGHT effect 24 hours a day.

Naturally, we have to make sure we get the night fighting aspect right, since so much more action occurs after dark than in daytime, right? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Just another example of the poor design decisions that keep this from being a true classic.

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 10:36 AM
This is the sort of response to my question that will be wholly ignored by the developement team and rightfully so. Saying it is overmodelled without scientific reasoning to back up your or my impression will get us absolutely nowhere!

I quite honestly couldn't tell you how much muzzle flash there was on that gun in daylight. try to also remember that the powders they used then may or may not have given off more or less flash than what we've been exposed to. Anyone have some, like rational information on this subject?

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

crazyivan1970
08-16-2004, 10:57 AM
How many posts on muzzle flash are you guys planning to produce? Oleg already said that this issue will be adressed... hello???

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2004, 11:26 AM
News to me, Ivan. All I've ever heard is excuses why it would NOT be fixed.

crazyivan1970
08-16-2004, 12:35 PM
Look for Oleg`s last posts, you`ll find it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

heywooood
08-16-2004, 07:00 PM
people only hear what they want to hear... and just when you thought it was safe to have whine with your muzzle flash...

HA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif muzzleflash whiners need a new GIG



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 07:04 PM
Thanks for the heads up on this issue CrazyDude! here's the last quote on the subject I found from Oleg...


Did I ever tried to tell in the past in other topics that it isn't so in real? I told that the size is correct(or close to correct) and problem that we have is in visualization only for day light and limits that we have (transparency of effects wasn't possible to change).

I also told in the past that when we just begun Il-2 and the flash there was really small to our office come one veteran (General, that flew all the war on Il-2) and when he saw the muzzle flash from Bf-109 attacking Il-2 that we model he was so great joking.... Like "What is it? It looks like kid's plastic electric gun muzzle flash, but not like real.. Should be in 10 times greater!" We asked to check him at beta test time and he was satisfied. Several days before release of Il-2 sim he died... His name is in credits of IL-2 sim series.


As far as I'm concerned, the issue is settled!

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

AnaK774
08-16-2004, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:


HA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif muzzleflash whiners need a new GIG


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about something that starts with B and has 3 letters in it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA LeOs.K_Anak

LEXX_Luthor
08-16-2004, 07:45 PM
I didn't know about this--what Stiglr said about averaging historical Day and Nite muzzle flashes.

Say...

DayFlash = 10
NiteFlash = 10,000 (yes, that much brighter or more in real life)

average is ( DayFlash + NiteFlash ) / 2 = 10,010 / 2 = 5,005

So, say FB Flash = 5,005

5,005 is exactly halfway in between 10 and 10 thousand, but this average value is only about half the higher number, but about 500 times higher than the lower value. So we see the average Flash as being equivalent to the Nite Flash -- a very large Flash.

One can't arithmetically average two quantities that have a such a large ratio and expect to be pleased with the result. The average value halfway between the high comparative ratio Flashes would of course be seen as astronomically more than the lower value but always roughly comparable to the higher value.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 09:11 PM
Lexx, that's an excellent point! Oh well, so much for it being settled!

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

NonWonderDog
08-17-2004, 12:45 AM
If you looked at a later (earlier?) post in that same thread, Oleg said they would be trying to implement separate day/night transparancies in time for Pacific Fighters or a patch soon after.

So it IS settled.

(Geez, even the newbie could look it up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

CHDT
08-17-2004, 02:57 AM
A constructive contribution on how large a caliber 50 muzzleflash should be:

http://img43.exs.cx/img43/6977/sabre.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


P.S. SF does a good job on this matter.

zipper_mx5
08-17-2004, 08:20 AM
Hi,
as a waeponry & ballistics instructor in italian army in 1983 I had the chance to shoot almost weekly with the MG42/59 cal. 7,62NATO that is the son (almost identical) of the old german MG42/3 (often wrongly named "Spandau").
The original MG42 project had a much higher rate of fire and used the standard german 7,92mm ammo, but I think the two weapons should behave and look almost identical at shooting.
The muzzle flash was practically non existent during the day with the standard MG42 conical muzzle flash/recoil assembly. What show clearly (in daylight too) were the tracing bullets that were loaded in an 1 tracer 4 FMJ ratio.
I am ASSUMING that almost any 7,92mm. german MG of WW2 vintage (what is the model we are talking about here for H111, MG13?) should behave as the surmentioned MG42.
Just my two cents.

zipper_mx5

DarthBane_
08-17-2004, 09:02 AM
We should have a switch or add on program to turn them off completely. This beaotifull and sophisticated game is getting ruined with that ugly, arcadishsly moddeled detail. Out with it.

Rab03
08-18-2004, 04:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
A constructive contribution on how large a caliber 50 muzzleflash should be:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gees, even AK-47 produces larger MF at night-no kidding.

Size of the MF depends on:
caliber;
type of gun powder;
quantity of gun powder;
barrel length;
suppressors;
etc.

To be frank, I don't know whether Sabre guns were protruding through fuselage. If not, you have a kind of flash suppressor.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

LEXX_Luthor
08-18-2004, 04:44 AM
mmm, thanks NonWonderDog if that's true about FP flashes. We are too busy arguing to pay attention to anything Oleg has to say. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

bazzaah2
08-18-2004, 06:15 AM
In a desperate attempt to cloud the issue, I'll add this. I saw a picture of some muzzle flash, in daylight at that, on my squad forum.

The discussion wasn't about muzzle flash, but there it was, issuing forth bright and bold from a Magnum 44. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I'll see if I can track it down and get Willie to post it here, so FI can do its bit to show that the debate isn't so straightforward.

Not that it'll make any difference mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

Obi_Kwiet
08-20-2004, 10:42 AM
Magnum 44's have very short barrals and lots and lots of powder. I know they used special cevering to hide the muzzle flash at night. They would have done that during the day if it was that big a deal.

Carnage2681
08-21-2004, 03:40 AM
My Grandfather was Mg42 gunner in WW2, i show him the FB Mf´s and he startet to laugh out load

He said, NO VISIBLE MF IN REAL LIFE

In the first half of WW2 he was service member at a german airport, with Ju88

He never saw a MF at day when the do testing shooting with the defensive MG

One soviet veteran say we need MF like A-Bombs, but nearly every veteran in Interviews in the I-Net say the opposite. But 1C believe only one !

Carnage2681
08-21-2004, 09:19 AM
Don´t ask me how i make it, but today my MF in FB look like this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/schuetzracer/Gelbes%20M%fcndungfeuer.JPG

Their looking much better in yellow, just reduce the size and their perfect

I restart FB and their going back to red ;(

I´m using XP and a GeForce 4600

VW-IceFire
08-21-2004, 09:58 AM
I've seen that happen too. I've got no idea why it happens...some sort of pallet corruption or something. I too like it alot more...

I hear that the muzzle flashes are getting smaller? Ivan said something about that.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

Carnage2681
08-21-2004, 10:02 AM
I could reproduce the "error" and make a lot of screens

in the german forums some people say that they see that phenomenom when they ply "Aufstand der Ehre, Rise of Honor"

I saw it in selve made USA campaign "TheRealDeal"

This MF look much better, exspecially on the USA planes with the 0.50´s in the wings, looking much realistic, not like comic style !

[This message was edited by Carnage2681 on Sat August 21 2004 at 09:24 AM.]

KaRaYa-X
08-21-2004, 10:30 AM
I have also had these yellow muzzle-flashes - which really look better than the default MF we have (although still far too big)

This happened to me while playing "Rebirth of Honour":
http://img29.exs.cx/img29/5401/grab48.jpg

--= flying online as JG&lt;52Karaya-X =--

Carnage2681
08-21-2004, 10:32 AM
Here´s something for you Jug Fans http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/schuetzracer/P47_050s.jpg

Make it like that and smaller http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So Mr Maddog, MF cannot be change......... we are no programmers and change them with an error ! Now make them smaller ,)

Carnage2681
08-21-2004, 10:34 AM
The rest....

http://mitglied.lycos.de/schuetzracer/hurricane_0333s.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/schuetzracer/La_5_Bugwaffen.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/schuetzracer/Fw190_D9.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/schuetzracer/Fw_D9.jpg