PDA

View Full Version : September 1, 1939



Vladimir_No2
08-31-2004, 10:02 PM
65 years ago today Germany invaded Poland thus starting the most terrible war mankind has ever known. At 4:40AM Wielun was bombed, signaling the begining of the invasion and killing over 1000 civilians. At 4:45 German troops began the land invasion of the country. What followed will not be summarized here, for my words would not do justice to it. For more information, I suggest you visit:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/poland.htm

http://www.9-1939.pl/

-Vlad
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/vladimir_no2/pzlsig.jpg

Vladimir_No2
08-31-2004, 10:02 PM
65 years ago today Germany invaded Poland thus starting the most terrible war mankind has ever known. At 4:40AM Wielun was bombed, signaling the begining of the invasion and killing over 1000 civilians. At 4:45 German troops began the land invasion of the country. What followed will not be summarized here, for my words would not do justice to it. For more information, I suggest you visit:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/poland.htm

http://www.9-1939.pl/

-Vlad
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/vladimir_no2/pzlsig.jpg

Jungmann
08-31-2004, 11:35 PM
Cheers to brave Poland.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/Jungmann/IL-Sig3.jpg

Jungmann

"Oh, the monkeys have no tails in Zamboanga..."

falco_cz
09-01-2004, 12:37 AM
Don't forget, Red Army invaded Poland at the very time too!

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 12:44 AM
Regardless of who invaded who, it was the beginning of the darkest moment of this planet's history. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

falco_cz
09-01-2004, 12:50 AM
Regardless? I was only refering to "Germany invaded Poland thus starting the most terrible war " Germany was NOT the only bad boy on block!

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 12:54 AM
Falco, if you take a moment and think about what I wrote, You will realise that my point being is that Germany was not the only bad boy on the block. Hitler did, however, wish this war, he did everything to provoke a war, he DID fire the first shots. Historical facts.

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

x6BL_Brando
09-01-2004, 01:15 AM
At the risk of getting offensive, don't you think that <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the only bad boy on block! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is a pretty lame simile when discussing the events that drew the entire world into 6 years of wholesale slaughter?

ploughman
09-01-2004, 01:30 AM
Wow, this took barely three posts before it got nasty. That has to be a record.

LEXX_Luthor
09-01-2004, 01:33 AM
All our western democracies shared with Germany forced sterilization laws.


The Men Behind Hitler
A German Warning to the World
by Bernhard Schreiber

~ http://www.toolan.com/hitler/index.html



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Freycinet
09-01-2004, 01:40 AM
A salute to Poland, who all by itself stood up to two dictatorships that overran and dismembered her.

A lesson for democracies here: it is necessary to stand up to dictatorships with actions, not just words. I wonder if poland would not have remained divided and conquered still, if hitler had stopped invading countries after september -39...

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
A lesson for democracies here: it is necessary to stand up to dictatorships with actions, not just words. I wonder if poland would not have remained divided and conquered still, if hitler had stopped invading countries after september -39...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I was thinking the same. I mean, look at the "Phoney War" which followed Poland's invasion. Nothing really happened again until Germany attacked France itself. I think that England and France would just be sitting on their butts doing very little, occasionaly drop leaflets over German cities and wait for WHAT? Had they hit Germany in the west in 1939, while they were busy with Poland, the war would be a very brief affair. Let the wars begin!

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Porsimo
09-01-2004, 02:24 AM
I once read a book about WW2 written by some German historian (don't remember his name). In this book he stated that the German generals were ready to make a takeover during the crisis of Czechoslovakia. But when Chamberlain gave in to Hitler, his popularity rose to the level which made the attempt very risky and it was abandoned - but not buried.
The author also states that originally Hitler's intention wasn't invade the whole Europe. When attacking to Poland he believed that England and France would let him do so as they let him take Czechoslovakia. As we know, that didn't happen but England and France declared war to Germany which came as a surprise to Hitler (claims the author). That made Denmark and Norway important and after easy victories Hitler became greedy and the rest is history...
Even during the Poland campaign the generals thought again the takeover.

These are the claims of that book. I don't know if this is true or not, but I think it opens many interesting "what if" -scenarios about could've the WW2 been avoided and how little things can be decisive in history.

- Regards
Porsimo
---------------------------
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/gudmund/fb/sigs/sig3.jpg (http://personal.inet.fi/koti/gudmund/fb/)

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 02:41 AM
"Don't forget, Red Army invaded Poland at the very time too!"

The USSR didn't invade until around 10 days later AFAIK.

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 02:46 AM
"A salute to Poland, who all by itself stood up to two dictatorships that overran and dismembered her."

Although it is also worth remembering that Poland sadly wasn't a democracy either at the time (despite a great democratic beginning, giving women the vote first amongst Western nations in, I think, 1920). However in the 1930s the democratic institutions gradually failed, to be replaced by a military junta. Mind you, even the great democracies such as the UK weren't as democratic then as one would like to think (e.g. in the UK if you owned a business you got a vote for your home and one for your business in the 1930s - i.e. not one man one vote).

carguy_
09-01-2004, 03:02 AM
As a Pole I say I remember and I thank you for remembering.

As a long time forum spammer I say lock it to prevent it getting ugly. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Self-proclaimed dedicated Willywhiner since July 2002

JtD
09-01-2004, 03:09 AM
Germany didn't really start the most terrible war mankind has ever know. I'd say the invasion of Poland was the beginning of it, but it wasn't Germany who started everything. Germany didn't declare war on France or UK, for example, it was vice versa.

Also, the Soviet Union invaded Poland around the day when Poland surrendered about two weeks after the German attack.

It's absolutely impossible that France or UK had taken more serious action in late 1939 than they did. They just weren't ready for war at this time. Also, the ancient tactics common in the French military at the time would not have done any good. They'd probably get stuck in the first line of German defense. It's not that only the French had a heavily defended line of bunkers and fortresses.

Well, nevermind. Dark and complex chapter of history and I don't like these "if only they had done that" comments. It's never that simple.

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 03:12 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JtD:
Germany didn't really start the most terrible war mankind has ever know.
_____________________________________________

Don't make me laugh, buddy! Who was it if not Nazi Germany? My Grandma, maybe?

If I understand your post correctly, UK and France are actually guilty of spreading the war? What, they should have let Germany take Poland without even a protest? C'mon! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WTE_Ibis
09-01-2004, 03:16 AM
Please close this before brothers are insulting brothers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Poland http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Ibissix-schmile.JPG
http://premium.uploadit.org/Ibissix/MAKE-MY-DAY.jpg
Join us or oppose us, either way MAKE MY DAY.

http://wte-anga.com

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 03:18 AM
That war started on July 17th, 1936, among the indifference , or even guilty pasiveness of most allied governments.

That day, the Spanish military garrison in Melilla, North Africa, raised against Spanish democratic government. The next day, General Franco, who was retained in the Canary Islands to avoid a coup-d'etat, fleed in secrecy to North Africa to take control of the armed insurrection. He was carried in an English private plane, the DH.89 Dragon Rapide of the 'Olley Air Service', G-ACYR. This plane:

http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Rapide%20G-ACYR1.jpg

That very same day -July, 18th- many garrisons and commanders in the main Spanish cities joined the rebellion. Just a few months later, the main extremist European totalitarist powers -the nazi Germany, the fascist Italy and communist USSR- started their intervention along both sides of the Civil War, while thousands of politically motivated volunteers from all parts of the world enlisted in the fray, and democratic nations oficially did... nothing -except forbiding, by means of a no-intervention treaty, the legal selling of weapons to democratic Spain, leaving it defenceless against fascist powers, and in hands of Stalin... BTW, they secretly sold scarce, obsolete and inoperative war material to Spain, in exchange of huge amounts of gold. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Here, Hitler toned his muscles, and Luftwaffe experimented the tactics they were to use in the Blitzkrieg. As for Stalin, all his military elite had learnt, was lost due to his bloody purgues of 1938-39. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

So, don't forget when the war started. On September, 1st, 1939, most of you only opened your eyes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

JtD
09-01-2004, 03:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
_____________________________________________

Don't make me laugh, buddy! Who was it if not Nazi Germany? My Grandma, maybe?

If I understand your post correctly, UK and France are actually guilty of spreading the war? What, they should have let Germany take Poland without even a protest? C'mon!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly don't want to make anybody laugh about the 2nd WW.

ploughman
09-01-2004, 03:45 AM
Oh I don't know, "'Allo, 'allo" was pretty funny.

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 03:52 AM
"It's absolutely impossible that France or UK had taken more serious action in late 1939 than they did. They just weren't ready for war at this time."

It is entirely possible that they could have done something then. It is scandalous that the UK and France did virtually nothing until directly attacked themselves. At the time the French and the UK had numerically superior tank forces, with designs the equal of what the Wehrmacht had. The French and UK perhaps lacked the required quantity of the most advanced numbers of single seat fighters, but the western half of Germany was essentially wide open. Hitler correctly gambled on inaction, and I find it shameful that the UK did very little, and yet the Polish pilots fought valiantly for OUR freedom the following year! (Highest scoring Battle of Britain squadron was Polish, highest scoring ace, Czech!).

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
It is entirely possible that they could have done something then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And before... remember the continuous breaking of Versailles Treaty points, the intervention of totalitarist powers in Spain, the Japanese invasion of China, the anexion of Austria, the Italian slaughter in Ethiopia, the ashaming 1938 pact against Czecs and Slovakians -they weren't even invited to a negotiaton in which they were deciding the anihilation of their state!

And Chamberlain waving that paper and saying: "Hitler is a gentleman" and "We got peace... peace in our time!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

As in Saint-Exupéry's 'The little prince', world democracies were egotist and procastrinating, and simply 'did allow the baobabs to grow tall until they took the whole little planet'.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

clint-ruin
09-01-2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
It is entirely possible that they could have done something then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Hey, remember that Great War thing? Let's do that again! C'mon, it'll be fun!"

http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/blww1castable.htm

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 05:03 AM
"the Italian slaughter in Ethiopia"

Well, to be honest all the Western powers and Axis had slaughtered natives in a similar way in the previous 30 years so I am not sure that it was much of a concern.

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 05:05 AM
Clint-ruin wrote:
"Hey, remember that Great War thing? Let's do that again! C'mon, it'll be fun!"

They _could_ have done something, and it would probably have been a good idea if they had. It doesn't mean that they wanted to, of course, even despite treaty obligations.

Slush69
09-01-2004, 05:14 AM
Now, I don't want to ruin a wonderfully amateurish thread with too many facts, but you do realize, that the French actually launched an offensive into Germany 6 days after the invasion of Poland. Right?

Before running wild it might be a good idea to ask yourselves two key questions: 1) why was the offensive limited in scope? and 2) why were the troops withdrawn. If you assume that the Allied high command wasn't stupid, and that there is no conspiracy, then why did their decisions seem rational at the time?

cheers/EoE

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

clint-ruin
09-01-2004, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Clint-ruin wrote:
"Hey, remember that Great War thing? Let's do that again! C'mon, it'll be fun!"

They _could_ have done something, and it would probably have been a good idea if they had. It doesn't mean that they wanted to, of course, even despite treaty obligations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't disagree with that at all - I am sure that you and I and the writers of every 3rd star trek episode aren't the only ones who wish it had occured to someone to snuff Hitler before things got completely out of control.

I think though that if you want to damn other countries for their inaction, it's important to remember that industrialised death had actually been done quite recently - between that and the influenza epidemic people were quite sick of burying relatives post WW1. This wasn't a feel good "just" war either, this was a war that was completely unjustifiable other than to the most dogmatic fans of empire. Not something that people were terribly keen to repeat if it could possibly be avoided again.

Why didn't the US attack the USSR after it turned the screws on Checkoslovakia and Hungary ? Same reason. Could have been the exact same trigger for a war as Hitlers little european adventures if the US had taken these things more seriously, but wasn't. If you want to play alternative historys it's hard to stop at just one.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
Now, I don't want to ruin a wonderfully amateurish thread with too many facts, but you do realize, that the French actually launched an offensive into Germany 6 days after the invasion of Poland. Right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok. Did they steal a bottle of schnapps and some choucrut and ran back behind Maginot Line to celebrate the victory? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Anyway, by September 1st it was TOO LATE. They should have stopped Hitler when he became the leader of a militaristic-but-weak regime yet. They allowed him too many concesions. And he believed that was going to last forever.

Machiavelli, in 'The Prince' -another prince, you see http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif -says: "When a war is unavoidable, you can't avoid war, you just delay it while your enemy grows in strength."

BTW, the Nazi hierarchs also found holocaust a clearly rational 'solution', and Barbarossa as an intelligent plan. Every 'rational' decision must be seen in the light of History. Present is not the better time to judge present facts.

And, Clint, USSR was not a 'militaristic-but-weak' power in 1968. It was at the peak of its nuclear power. Not the same situation as in 1936-38, when French or UK Armies were separately twice to four times bigger than German Army, and technology and industry was at a par. Even Poland was more powerful than Germany by 1937.

[This message was edited by DuxCorvan on Wed September 01 2004 at 04:32 AM.]

clint-ruin
09-01-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
And, Clint, USSR was not a 'militaristic-but-weak' power in 1968. It was at the peak of its nuclear power. Not the same situation as in 1936-38, when French or UK armies were twice to fourth times as big as German Army, and technology and industry was at a par. Even Poland was more powerful than Germany by 1937.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean to say that policy makers weighed the expected consequences of going to war rationally and decided that it wasn't worth going toe to toe with an opponent who could quite likely inflict severe casualties on them [albiet ones that would slow rather than stop a total victory] over some pissant eastern european country?

Coz that's what I thought I was saying.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 06:03 AM
No, I said that consequences to be measured were far more severe in 1968 than in 1938, and that Hitler's pretensions on Poland were well-known back in 1936, when Germany was a puny raising nation with limited disuasory power, not the huge nuclear-armed block the Warsaw Pact was in the 60s.

So, the policy makers weighed the backs and pros far more accurately in 1968 than in 1936-38, when they didn't limit to look on the other side in the Czech-Slovakia disaster, but they were even co-authors.

Bearcat99
09-01-2004, 06:37 AM
Look kiddies.. this thread has the potential to become a pretty informative discourse.... dont muck it all up with nationalistic pride and all that ****. The facts speak for themselves so to qoute Joe Friday... just the facts girls.... keep it civil and don't take it personal or make it personal. It's history.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/sonar.gif

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

Aztek_Eagle
09-01-2004, 06:48 AM
i post made for idiots, and writen by idiots, thats why i am here

clint-ruin
09-01-2004, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
No, I said that consequences to be measured were far more severe in 1968 than in 1938, and that Hitler's pretensions on Poland were well-known back in 1936, when Germany was a puny raising nation with limited disuasory power, not the huge nuclear-armed block the Warsaw Pact was in the 60s.

So, the policy makers weighed the backs and pros far more accurately in 1968 than in 1936-38, when they didn't limit to look on the other side in the Czech-Slovakia disaster, but they were even co-authors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait, what?

Hitlers desires on everything to the east were well known before 1936, that didn't stop Stalin bending over forwards for him either.

Hitlers entire early successes were based on just being flat out bold ballsy enough not to play by the accepted rules of the game. Not everyone had that figured out even by '41, let alone when he was kicking around banning the opposition and kicking what were regarded as dangerous socialists in Germany in the 30s.

There were quite a few elements other than the other european powers gullibility that led to Hitler being so feted and accomodated back then, and it was his bad-faith diplomacy and lust for conquest that got him into trouble, not anything policy based. The conquest aspect didn't become massively clear until he'd actually pulled it off and presented the rest of the world with lighting victories and what he saw as easy diplomatic outs. Which he knew they'd take. The response to Poland surprised the piss out of him and he expected to get away with the same old stuff a lot longer.

If you want to argue that the case should have been made to take the stick to the Germans to keep them down as soon as their heads popped up out of economic and [perceived] social disorder, well, fine. You'd be with Hughes and the other hard liners of the time. And ignored. Because it was seen as total bollocks by every other one of the serious actors of the time.

I am sure that your hindsight on this issue is completely perfect and I agree that the diplomatic side of things during the 30s was completely stuffed up. I don't think you could find anyone to defend it as right. I'm not. I'm just saying it was seen as reasonable and completely rational at the time. An occupation of 30s Germany full of very desperate, very nationalist fanatics for no discernable reason is a pretty hard sell, even if you weren't trying to sell it to other nations who remember the last time such a thing was tried.

Tell you what - you can go for the mad props in the thread and agitate against the current nascent threat that will lead to WW3. See who you can convince of its existence. Now you know how the people trying to argue against fascist/communist extremism felt back then. No props if you're wrong about it, by the way - just humiliation and potential political suicide. Still sound good?

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 07:19 AM
Ok ok, Clint, you win... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.studentbmj.com/back_issues/1098/graphics/boxing.gif

Tvrdi
09-01-2004, 07:31 AM
S! to polish ppl...luv their struggle for homeland...amongs other things I saw documentary on discovery channel about them in WW2....being fu**ed by germans and russians in WW2 (stalin refused to help them even when he was on allied side http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif) and after the war u know what happened...soviet army occupated poland (with puppet government)...communism regime began, they executed and tortured even polish pilots from BoB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif....also in hungary, romania and czechoslovakia represions from soviets were strong,....all under soviet/communism regime...in western germany no such represion by US army http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ....I even heard that stalin executed "his" russians (thousands!) who were against the regime (also ppl who didnt do anything, civilians)....there was war after WW2 for some individuals.....now we have wars....I think, maybe we should avoid threads like this...memories are ok, but its always with political replies here and thats what is unnecessarily...

[This message was edited by Tvrdi on Wed September 01 2004 at 06:39 AM.]

ploughman
09-01-2004, 07:43 AM
That was very big of you Dux, you don't see many people with the moral courage to admitt defeat nowadays. Peace and honour. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

clint-ruin
09-01-2004, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
That was very big of you Dux, you don't see many people with the moral courage to admitt defeat nowadays. Peace and honour. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dux is a champ and one of the best posters still left on these boards, but given my agitated and long winded replies to these kinds of threads I think most people would go "Oh god just please stop typing at me and go away, OK?" after the first few :&gt;

Just got back from a funeral in sydney so I'm in one of my characteristicly stroppy moods right now. Just wanted to make the point that the leadup to WW2 was the wrapup to unfinished business in WW1, and for more reasons than just the Germans getting pissed off about Versallies. The one bit of data that really gets me about this is the way Lenin was shipped over to Russia from the wrong side of the front with German aid to see if they couldn't take the Russians out of the fight through internal strife. Worth looking into if you're interested in the kinds of long shot unpredictable events that led up to the whole mess.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

AlexDavies
09-01-2004, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
That war started on July 17th, 1936, among the indifference , or even guilty pasiveness of most allied governments.

That day, the Spanish military garrison in Melilla, North Africa, raised against Spanish democratic government. The next day, General Franco, who was retained in the Canary Islands to avoid a coup-d'etat, fleed in secrecy to North Africa to take control of the armed insurrection. He was carried in an English private plane, the DH.89 Dragon Rapide of the 'Olley Air Service', G-ACYR. This plane:

http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Rapide%20G-ACYR1.jpg

That very same day -July, 18th- many garrisons and commanders in the main Spanish cities joined the rebellion. Just a few months later, the main extremist European totalitarist powers -the nazi Germany, the fascist Italy and communist USSR- started their intervention along both sides of the Civil War, while thousands of politically motivated volunteers from all parts of the world enlisted in the fray, and democratic nations oficially did... nothing -except forbiding, by means of a no-intervention treaty, the legal selling of weapons to democratic Spain, leaving it defenceless against fascist powers, and in hands of Stalin... BTW, they secretly sold scarce, obsolete and inoperative war material to Spain, in exchange of huge amounts of gold. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Here, Hitler toned his muscles, and Luftwaffe experimented the tactics they were to use in the Blitzkrieg. As for Stalin, all his military elite had learnt, was lost due to his bloody purgues of 1938-39. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

So, don't forget when the war started. On September, 1st, 1939, most of you only opened your eyes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
just like the one i flew in. except it was green a creme, with a silver tail. lovely http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Dux is a champ and one of the best posters still left on these boards, but given my agitated and long winded replies to these kinds of threads I think most people would go "Oh god just please stop typing at me and go away, OK?" after the first few :&gt;

Just got back from a funeral in sydney so I'm in one of my characteristicly stroppy moods right now. Just wanted to make the point that the leadup to WW2 was the wrapup to unfinished business in WW1, and for more reasons than just the Germans getting pissed off about Versallies. The one bit of data that really gets me about this is the way Lenin was shipped over to Russia from the wrong side of the front with German aid to see if they couldn't take the Russians out of the fight through internal strife. Worth looking into if you're interested in the kinds of long shot unpredictable events that led up to the whole mess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes, being a big headed shorty, my girlfriend always says I'm a champ...ignon. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As for the train that secretly carried Lenin back to Russia, yes, I've read about it, and it's fascinant. How things carefully planned by intelligence clever guys on short term just go out of hand with time. Recent times also brought examples of this... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyway, it's refreshing and tonifying to have some debate every week or so... It keeps our minds agile, and mods' travel agencies working. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AlexDavies
09-01-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Oh I don't know, "'Allo, 'allo" was pretty funny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i've got the box set. whenever i'm stressed, i watch it, and feel much better. the sketch with gruber, rene and the translation tape is a classic. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 08:38 AM
Alex, it's true, the Dragon was a beautiful aircraft for its time.

http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Rapide%20G-AGTM.jpg

Franco wasn't beautiful, tho. When he was a young, thin, big-headed officer, his army mates called him 'Cerillita' ('Little match')... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

http://images.google.es/images?q=tbn:SbKLkJ-DZIQJ:tallerzenon.3dup.net/match.gif

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 08:39 AM
"Ok. Did they steal a bottle of schnapps and some choucrut and ran back behind Maginot Line to celebrate the victory? Tongue"

The French offensive was EXTREMELY limited, and only in platoon strength, AFAIK. Given the lack of troops on the Western front at the time there was an opportunity for a bold move. As it was full mobilisation did not even occur until 1940. Not that I can blame the French for wanting to avoid another 4 years of trench warfare, and they didn't have the benefit of hindsight or good intelligence of the disposition of German forces. Ironically the country that did have this was Poland (having broken Enigma) but Poland still didn't have the resources to stop the German armed forces.

"Anyway, by September 1st it was TOO LATE. They should have stopped Hitler when he became the leader of a militaristic-but-weak regime yet."

When he was in command of a militaristic-but-weak regime he wasn't much of a threat to Western nations as his forces were weak and essentially directed Eastwards (Ruhr occupation excepted). Also the British and French forces were weak and their economies smashed by the depression so their diplomacy in 1933-36 would have had little to back it up. Finally you couldn't really go and depose every (at the time) tin pot fascist in Europe as there were so many at the time. It wasn't obvious in 1933 that Hitler was going to become so dangerous. By 1938 it was pretty obvious but then there was rearmament.

Damn - got to go - will finish off later

AlexDavies
09-01-2004, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Alex, it's true, the Dragon was a beautiful aircraft for its time.

http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Rapide%20G-AGTM.jpg


http://images.google.es/images?q=tbn:SbKLkJ-DZIQJ:tallerzenon.3dup.net/match.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i think the rapide still is. and i felt a hundred times safer in that than in a cramped, uncomfortable boeing 757

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

Kwiatos
09-01-2004, 08:50 AM
SALUTE for Polish soldiers and others who fight with honour in WW2 for freedom. Expecially Salute for Polish Pilots who fought and died in WW2. I will never forget about them!!!

Boandlgramer
09-01-2004, 09:09 AM
how can anybody blame the french what they did or did not in the early days of WW2.
in ww 1 they lost a whole generation of young men.
no wonder ,why they were acting with care.

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:SPAM8u6WKXQJ:www.schmied-von-kochel-spiele.de/assets/images/Schmied02.jpg
Liaba boarisch steam ois kaiserlich va´deam.

JorBR
09-01-2004, 01:40 PM
BBC report on september 1, 1939

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/40174000/rm/_40174969_8825_01_9_39_evacuation.ram

"Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

JorBR
09-01-2004, 02:03 PM
What a terrible toll http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/images/ww2-3.gif

Death toll (military and civilian) in percentage of population, based on various sources.

Poland 20%
U.S.S.R. 13%
Germany 9%
China 3%
Finland 2%
France 2%
Italy 1%
United Kingdom 1%
USA 0,2%

"Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 02:34 PM
"i think the rapide still is"

If I ever have a big lottery win I'd like to buy a DeHavilland Rapide, assuming any still exist.

Aaron_GT
09-01-2004, 02:35 PM
Poland's loss in WW2 was horrendous. In terms of men lost under arms, the total is pretty much the same as that of the USA or UK.

LStarosta
09-01-2004, 02:53 PM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned anything about the U.S., U.K. and the U.S.S.R. and the Yalta Conference...

------------------------------------------------

Polish and British RAF officers were sitting at the mess one day with the radio on, drinking beer, and taking double shots of whisky celebrating their successes when they heard of the Allies' betrayal of Poland.

Silence.

None of the British had the courage to look any of the Poles in the eyes. Tears fell on the floor. Not only Polish tears, but British tears as well. The next morning several Polish personnel were found dead in their quarters. Some hung, others shot.

------------------------------------------------


We all say that WWII was the world's most terrible conflict, and that we shouldn't forget. I couldn't agree more. Being a Pole, I see the effects of WWII and the communism that followed after it almost every day. Whether it be the stories I hear from my parents who grew up in communist Poland, or walking through a Polish street, or watching the Polish news... The echoes of mankind's greatest conflict seem to be unsilenced there, unlike in the U.S., relatively speaking. Exactly one month ago was the 60th Anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. This was the biggest resistance movement in all of Europe, and resistance fighters were later granted combatant status. I had the chance to be in Poland during that time. Despite all the efforts, whether it be reinacted battles between the AK (Home Army) and the Germans, or media coverage, it's sad to see that not many kids my age (I'm 16) give a damn about their own history, of which they can be extremely proud of. It's funny that grown ups, who educated in the communist regime, were told lies that put to shame Polish war heroics and the leaders and men that made them happen, yet they still show more love and patriotism for their country than kids who have grown up in a free and democratic Poland all their lives. I'm sorry if I strayed off topic, but my goal here was to convey that it is not right to dwell on the past. Just try and learn all the lessons that are to be learned from the past, and put them to good use in the present.

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

Tooz_69GIAP
09-01-2004, 04:30 PM
Just as an aside, you guys might like to pick a book entitled "Poland" by James Michener (I think).

It's a really great read, and is semi fictional. But all of the historical events described happened, and are outlined as faithfully as the author could do at the time. He had the help of many Polish historians who translated the texts and books, etc, for the book.

It follows the fortunes of 3 fictional polish families over a period of 1,000 years up to the 1980s. It really opens your eyes to how history repeats itself, and how badly Poland has gotten screwed over the centuries.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

Bandit.426Cdn
09-01-2004, 07:10 PM
.

SkyChimp
09-01-2004, 07:15 PM
The Chinese would probably disagree that WWII started in Poland.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature2.jpg

Aaron_GT
09-02-2004, 04:26 AM
Really it was two separate series of wars (Europe and the Far East) that simply happened to have been partially concurrent and somehow received the same "WWII" tag.

essemm
09-02-2004, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
Germany didn't really start the most terrible war mankind has ever know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you really serious? That's like saying that Iraq didn't start the FIRST gulf war, even though they invaded a smaller, almost helpless neighboring nation. Germany was DEFINATELY the agressor. France and England declared war on Germany because of Hitler's barbaric and systematic dismantling of two soverign nations in Europe. You can't do that and expect the rest of Europe to stand idly by and watch.

You really do have an...interesting outlook on the war if you really believe that the war was started by anybody BUT Germany.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/141103-warloch_small.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-02-2004, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
The Chinese would probably disagree that WWII started in Poland.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know the Chinese, but ask a Spaniard. And Aaron, this is Europe. And the nazis made war here since 1936. Yes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for the 'two separate series of wars' I'll only say 'Iron Pact' and 'Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis'. Yes, Axis existed on paper, it's not just a tag name. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

dbzdude87
09-02-2004, 07:51 AM
Hey, you all act like Germany was the aggressor. I realize that a lot of people on this forum knows a lot about history, but there is something that most of you seem not to realize. There has been tension between Germany and Poland for hundreds of years. Polish children were taught in school to hate Germans (I'm not sure if they are still taught that, but I know that pre-WW2 they surely were).

Also, Poland got East Prussia after WW1 (which wasn't Germany's fault, they didn't start it). East Prussia has been Germany's for hundreds of years. That wasn't very fair.

As for France.... France has almost ALWAYS been the aggressor against Germany. Between 1650 and 1870, France attacked Prussia/Germany no less than 14 times (a known fact). Prussia/Germany rarely, if ever, attacked France before WW1.

Hitler always wanted an alliance with England. Churchill's war mongering wouldn't allow an alliance. As for Russia: they were communists and needed to be defeated.

I don't think the reasons for Hitler starting the war were too off the wall (besides the Jewish part). In regards to getting territory and stopping the evil of communism, there is no reason there shouldn't have been a war.

France and Poland have always been bitter enemies of Germany.

I'm not saying anything about the Holocaust, we all know that was wrong.

I'm just saying... there have been wars fought over far worse things than these. In fact, I think Germany started a war for justifiable reasons.

ploughman
09-02-2004, 08:01 AM
Oh...my...god!

Jasko76
09-02-2004, 08:28 AM
This is scary! Talk about a TROLL - the best I've seen in weeks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my riceBURNER!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aaron_GT
09-02-2004, 09:10 AM
"As for the 'two separate series of wars' I'll only say 'Iron Pact' and 'Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis'. Yes, Axis existed on paper, it's not just a tag name"

The agression of Japan in the East started even before Hitler came to power, in 1931, involving China, Korea and Russia as well as Japan. In other words the war in the Far East had been going on for 9 years before Japan joined the Axis in 1940.

dbzdude87
09-02-2004, 09:22 AM
Hey, don't call me a troll, and don't call me stupid.

I'm presenting historical facts as well as my opinion.

If you disagree with me, post some well-thought out reasons, don't attack me personally.

I show a little pride for my country (Germany, obviously) and you Americans go nuts.

Jasko76
09-02-2004, 09:28 AM
Chill, m8! I love your country and I'm not American. Even if I were, so what?

What made me react is that according to you, Churchill is more responsible for WWII than Hitler. I'm sorry, that's just plain silly!

You say that East Prussia was a part of Germany for hundreds of years. If my memory serves me well, there was no Germany as we know it prior to WWI.

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my riceBURNER!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dbzdude87
09-02-2004, 09:37 AM
1871 Prussia is united with the German states. (there becomes a Kaiser in full control of Prussia and most of the German states).

In my view Prussia is Germany, though historically they were separate for hundreds of years.

Sorry for freaking out... it's just that while I am proud of Germany, a lot of people usually jump my case and give me the ol' line, "You nazi!" So I kind of freak out. Sorry about that.

Churchill was not more responsible than Hitler. I didn't mean to imply that. I guess what I really meant was that England had no real place in the war. They basically did not want a German controlled Europe. Hitler DID want an alliance with Britain (and he didn't intend to break it like he did with Russia).

Anyone who read Mein Kampf will know that he had no beef with Britain; his main concern was Russia and the smashing of communism.

ploughman
09-02-2004, 09:56 AM
Well, aside from the 'Jewish thing' there was that other thing about slavs being sub-humans which married nicely with lebensraum, and that had nothing to do with Communism but everything to do with genocide, ethnic cleansing and a new empire in the east. Now that wouldn't have been very fair either, would it?

Hitler = Psyhconutbarwarmongeringlunarian.

darkhorizon11
09-02-2004, 10:35 AM
Yeah, as bad as it was, its end it did bring stability to Europe for the first time in well, ever. Though theres been some small incidents (like Bosnia Hersgovinia and the Kosovo incident) things have been stabile. Perhpas it also proved the true destructive power of mankind and its after effects had a major impact on why the Allies and the USSR didn't just have an all out nuclear war.

In fact if Germany had invaded Poland in 1941 or 1942 the war would have been set back and perhaps the USA wouldn't have been the only country to develop the Atomic Bomb. Personally, I think its better off that the war happened when it did...

Rola.
09-02-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
[Hitler's] main concern was Russia and the smashing of communism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then why did he remove Poland from the map? We held communists' march to West in 1920, if it weren't for us, it would reach Germany, France... if any commies popped up in our country, they ended up in maximum security prison as dangerous extremists http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Come on, Hitler had his own mad ambitions and one of them was to get rid of Jews - is there any reasonable justification for that policy?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
There has been tension between Germany and Poland for hundreds of years.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because Germans like to attack us over and over again. You've always been one of our favorite enemies, along with our eastern neighbours http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif j/k

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
Polish children were taught in school to hate Germans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're mistaken, it was III Reich that was using the ethnic hate ideology. How can you explain the fact that before Hitler's rise to power Germany was Poland's major trading partner (e.g. grain export)? Did you know that when Polish air force was created it used mostly German equipment? How can you explain Poles on German air shows or German on Polish ones?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
Also, Poland got East Prussia after WW1.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Now you puzzled me... and shown your lack of historical knowledge. Do you want compositon of Wehrmacht forces launching an attack FROM Easter Prussia in 1939? This territory WAS assigned to Germany after WWI!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
East Prussia has been Germany's for hundreds of years.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Debatable. We invited Teutonic Order to Pomerania in high Middle Ages to fight with pagans, they stayed way too long, starting a war with us. These territories (& Gdansk/Danzig) were always changing hands: sometimes as Polish king's feud, sometimes belonging to Germanic nations...
About being fair: do you remember that Prussia, Austria and Russia attacked and destroyed Polish kingdom in XVIIIc.?
Well you could say that before, say, VIc. there were Gots and not Slavs here, but don't get started with this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
In fact, I think Germany started a war for justifiable reasons.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're scaring me...



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
In fact if Germany had invaded Poland in 1941 or 1942...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...then maybe Poland would have force strong enough to stop him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
But I'll bet Stalin would have attacked first in 1942...

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)
http://www.9-1939.pl/Pliki/bannerGIFen.gif

[This message was edited by Skibicki on Thu September 02 2004 at 10:03 AM.]

mynameisroland
09-02-2004, 10:48 AM
posted 01-09-04 02:52
"It's absolutely impossible that France or UK had taken more serious action in late 1939 than they did. They just weren't ready for war at this time."

It is entirely possible that they could have done something then. It is scandalous that the UK and France did virtually nothing until directly attacked themselves. At the time the French and the UK had numerically superior tank forces, with designs the equal of what the Wehrmacht had. The French and UK perhaps lacked the required quantity of the most advanced numbers of single seat fighters, but the western half of Germany was essentially wide open. Hitler correctly gambled on inaction, and I find it shameful that the UK did very little, and yet the Polish pilots fought valiantly for OUR freedom the following year! (Highest scoring Battle of Britain squadron was Polish, highest scoring ace, Czech!).

How was it scandalous?

Do you think that any country wanted that war - as it turned out? No war since has been anything like it. I think that by not invading Germany many hoped it would blow over its human nature to avoid conflict unless its absolutely neccessary. Also rem that Britain and France were still reeling from WW1 where the casualtly levels (wounded and killed )were something like 25 - 50% amongst men of fighting age.

mynameisroland
09-02-2004, 11:01 AM
There has been tension between Germany and Poland for hundreds of years. Polish children were taught in school to hate Germans (I'm not sure if they are still taught that, but I know that pre-WW2 they surely were).

A big generalism but funnily enough one of my primary school teachers was a Pole and he made every body recite a poem about the 'Nasty Nazis' during a class project on WW2.

I see that dbzdude87 is sounding trollish but if you read what he is saying its factual and he is not making any exceptional claims. Perhaps the fact that Europe was an unstable place in the 30s could make the invasion of Poland seem like another normal conflict, think of Span civil war , Abysinna ect. It was the annexing of another germanic land ( something like 1million Prussian were living in Poland at the time.

Im not justifiying it but look at the greater historical picture the war did not start there. It started in 1918 -1919 When the French mainly and the US and British Empire laid out the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was taken from a population of 60 million to 40 million thats a hell of a lot of scattered germans in someone elses country.

Also , while we are talking about the date lets not forget that President G W Bush's speech yesterday claimed WW2 started with the attack on Pearl Harbour not the invasion of Poland.

What ever their nationalities those who died deserve our respect and rememberence

Rola.
09-02-2004, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mynameisroland:
... It was the annexing of another germanic land ( something like 1million Prussian were living in Poland at the time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cool. Then NOW Poland should annex countries like: USA (few milions of Poles here, we should place new capital in Chicago), Russia (they were giving us "free trips to Siberia" for hundreds of years, no wonder there are plenty of Poles there), France, UK (large Polish communities there), Ukraine, Belorussia, Lithuania (using dbzdude87's way of thinking these were our territories "for hundred years")...

GUYS, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? NAZI ATTACK ON POLAND WAS JUSTIFIABLE???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Also , while we are talking about the date lets not forget that President G W Bush's speech yesterday claimed WW2 started with the attack on Pearl Harbour not the invasion of Poland.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
US President George W. Bush once said about "150 years of peace on the Pacific, thanks to USA and Japan", forgetting about WW2... he says many things...

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)
http://www.9-1939.pl/Pliki/bannerGIFen.gif

mynameisroland
09-02-2004, 11:48 AM
Who said it was ok?

who said any war was ok?

Who said the invasion of Iraq was ok?

Stop looking at the isolated picture wars dont happen because of one man. Saddam , Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Churcill.

Wars happen because of underlying tension between nations much bigger than just one man

Rola.
09-02-2004, 12:37 PM
Who said it was ok?

Few posts earlier dbzdude87 said "In fact, I think Germany started a war for justifiable reasons." Such way of thinking is just plain wrong.

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)
http://www.9-1939.pl/Pliki/bannerGIFen.gif

AlexDavies
09-02-2004, 12:44 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-02-2004, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The agression of Japan in the East started even before Hitler came to power, in 1931, involving China, Korea and Russia as well as Japan. In other words the war in the Far East had been going on for 9 years before Japan joined the Axis in 1940.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know, Aaaron... What I was trying to say, precisely, is that WW2, in a wide concept, which we could define as 'wars of the new fascist nationalism', started before 1939. And that European and Asian were linked by factors less accidental than you noted in a previous post.

I tried to state that Japanese objectives in 1931 were the same that lead it to face the presence in the Pacific of US in the late 30s, and finally to pact with Germany and to Pearl Harbor. It's what we should call the 'Fascism Wars'.

Japan had a West-bound conquest aim, that would have faced sooner or later with East-bound nazi expansionism. And the same happened in Africa between Germany and Italy. (In fact Spanish aims in Africa were the main obstacles for Hitler to make Franco directly into the war). So, the three ultra-nationalist powers -which were following an agressive politics of expansion since the early-mid thirties- signed a treaty to literally divide the world and their influence areas: this is, the 'Axis'.

So I must insist: World War Two started well before 1939. But it seems like a War is not a World War until the starrings of Modern Age appear on scene... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BTW, Dbzdude87, you must be very young, and perhaps very badly instructed. I really don't want to enter the fray, but your inconceivable arguments justifying the agressive actions of Hitlerian Germany against its neighbours are right beyond any credit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Aaron_GT
09-02-2004, 02:49 PM
"Yes, I know, Aaaron... What I was trying to say, precisely, is that WW2, in a wide concept, which we could define as 'wars of the new fascist nationalism', started before 1939. And that European and Asian were linked by factors less accidental than you noted in a previous post"

Japanese territorial expansion started prior to WW1, and prior to the rise of fascism. It is as much a product of contact with the Western empire building powers in the 19th century that were carving out interests in China than a product of contact with Hitler. In the process of this expansion Japan ultimately became a pariah state, although relations with the Western powers were relatively good in the early 1930s. However the ultimate consequence that it threw in its lot with the fascist powers. Along the way all manner of murderous acts were committed, of course, notably in Nanking and Shanghai. Also you have to factor in that Japan went through a number of different regimes between 1931 and 1945, the infamous Tojo regime only being PM from 1941-44, although the military junta was in power until May 1945.

The similarity with Germany is perhaps that the regimes in the relevant period were undemocratic, and that both nations were relatively late on the empire-building stage, and (thankfully) the unpleasant vision of regimes both failed.

LStarosta
09-02-2004, 02:49 PM
DBZDude, if you really want to get into history, East Prussia had been Polish territory since Poland had been a pre-medieval kingdom, and was recaptured from the Teutons in the Battle of Tannenberg (Bitwa pod Grunwaldem) in 1410, where the Teutons were defeated by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which by the way was the first economic, political, and military union in the world. Since ancient times, the territory in question was inhabited not by Germanic tribes, but by early Polish tribes.

Rola, szkoda ze musimy bronic Honor naszej Ojczyzny przed takimi baranami.

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

[This message was edited by LStarosta on Thu September 02 2004 at 01:58 PM.]

Wallstein
09-02-2004, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Porsimo:
"---I once read a book about WW2 written by some German historian (don't remember his name).---"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank´s for your interesting post. I think that the writer you are talking about is a German general von Tippelskirch. He wrote the first German version of the war as early as in the beginning if the 1950;th, I guess.

He wrote without any passion and he was very carefull with historical facts. People at that time thought that von Tippelskirch was amongst the best war-historians.

About the war and how it really begun! Oh boy, there are lot´s of books one has to read before getting enough knowledge to start even to think of it. For there were causes before any historical actions. I have spent years with history and the more I have learned, the difficultier it is to blame any spesific country or nation. And more than that, the more I have studied, the deeper I hope that people would stop all violence and just become friends. It may sound naive, but may I add, that I have studied these things for over 20 years! Have I allways been this kind of a pacifist? No, there was a time when I was sort of a soldier my self, too!

The fact is, as said in the original post, that Germany invaded Poland. That is true and as you said, Hitler has beed said to be surprised because fo the reactions of the UK and France. I have good reasons to believe this is true once I try to see the things as they might have looked like in the eyes of a person of that time.
That would be too long of a story to describe here, but let me tell you something else:

Germany was not really ready for a true war at the time of invasion to Poland, by 1.9.1939. The Wehrmacht was rather poorly equipped and quite small compared to the requirements of a big war. Luftwaffe did not have enough aeroplanes, and finally the Flotte was lacking everything and all kind of vessels except the smallest ones. There were many programs in the field of war industry in the Dritte Reich, but one thing is clear: they aimed to years 1942-1945. In other words, Germany was producing war goods and material slowly and the time when Germany would have been really ready for a war, was much later that 1939. I.e. somtime between the years 1942 and 1945.

Another thing is, that if Germany would not started the war in 1.9.1939, some other nation would most likely have done so... definetely not Poland, of course. BUT was there any chance for poor Poland to keep herself away from landcombat on it´s own territory in longrun? I`m afraid there was not such a chance at all.

I`m sorry to write this long post - once again in perhaps wrong forum (LOL) - but this topic is horrible and iteresting at the same time. Anyhow, I hope that we can keep these discussion in courteous form, for none of us are responsible, nor any party of the second world war. None of us ourselves "were there" in those days!

Take care,
Wallstein

Aaron_GT
09-02-2004, 02:50 PM
"How was it scandalous?"

Because inaction meant breaking treaty obligations, and promises of help made in addition at the outbreak of war.

DuxCorvan
09-02-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Japanese territorial expansion started prior to WW1, and prior to the rise of fascism. It is as much a product of contact with the Western empire building powers in the 19th century that were carving out interests in China than a product of contact with Hitler.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, time for a lock! I've been beaten again! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh, why do I even try? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.studentbmj.com/back_issues/1098/graphics/boxing.gif

Vladimir_No2
09-02-2004, 03:31 PM
All I wanted to do was recognize the begining of WWII. Poland was invaded by Germany. 17% of Poland's population died. The war know as World War Two started when Germany invaded Poland. There may have been other wars that had something to do with WWII before September 1, 1939, but they are not called World War Two. Could we just remember that over 50,000 people died without starting some sort of flame war here? Thank you to all those that did this, I ask those that cannot to take their senseless fighting elsewhere.

-Vlad
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/vladimir_no2/pzlsig.jpg

Atomic_Marten
09-02-2004, 03:31 PM
I must say that I have a good laugh reading all 4 pages of this thread. But the fact is that the subject of thread is really not funny. What is really funny and rather (more) surprising is fact that after all this years and more or less known almost all facts about WW2 we have some serious difference in opinions.

This can be viewed/explained only as bad attempts of a joking. Really guys it is not funny. I know that this is internet and everything is allowed but enough is enough.

Every thread like this (started to remind us of some point in history) after a few posts must become locked...

Vladimir_No2
09-02-2004, 03:33 PM
Oh my, I seem to have become a troll...

-Vlad
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/vladimir_no2/pzlsig.jpg

ploughman
09-02-2004, 03:39 PM
No Dux, don't give up.

The Japanese had imperial designs on the Asian mainland prior to contact with the perfidious westerners. Medieval incursions by Japanese armies into Korea and China occurred only ended in the late 16th Century with the two hundred and fifty years of navel gazing that was the Shogunate. Imperial aspirations were resumed in the mid-19th Century, following the Meji Restoration and the beginings of the industrialisation of Japan and are a function of Japanese chauvinism, not learned imperialism. Japan was a player, not a victim. China and Korea suffered at the hands of the Japanese Imperialists as well as the Russians (who were handsomely beaten).

dbzdude87
09-02-2004, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Cool. Then NOW Poland should annex countries like: USA (few milions of Poles here, we should place new capital in Chicago)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Polish people CHOSE to come to America. The Germans were forced inside of another country through territory-stealing.

I don't want anyone here to think that I am disgracing or that I want to disgrace any soldier. I think that all soldiers who died in WW2 deserve respect because they were fighting for what they believe in (except the Poles and Frenchies! JK!!!).

I am a little steamed because a lot of people blame solely Germany, and that many people do not even recognize the sacrifices that German soldiers made. Even the current German Chancellor is basically a German-hater. He even adopted a Russian kid.

Anyway, there have been many stupid reasons for wars before. Consider the Franco-Prussian war. France's unchained agression made them decide to attack Prussia. Just check out the reasons behind it. I won't bother stating them here, go read about it yourself, but it is funny.

Like I said, France invaded Prussia more than 14 times in the past 4 hundred years without provocation. Germany has invaded France without PHYSICAL provocation maybe twice. As for WW2's invasion of France, they were asking for high reparations from Germany, and Germany could not pay. So, it was provocative, but I labeled it non-physical provocation.

And to the Polish guy who said that Poles weren't taught ethnic hatred of Germans in school... you are dead wrong. Check out some textbooks from Poland from the years leading up to WW2 and to somewhere in the 1800s. You will find ethnic hatred!

Also, I never said that Hitler's hatred of Jews or Slavs was a good thing. I limited my debate simply to soldiers/soldiering and the causes of the war in a military sense.

Good day, sirs.

Atomic_Marten
09-02-2004, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
Oh my, I seem to have become a troll...

-Vlad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My post was not aiming at your topics. Just to some guys that have an very 'alternative' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif view of history events.... regardless how many books they have been read, and how deep they know the subject, yet their ignorance and self stupidity in a manner "I do not give a rats a$$" give me a good ironic laugh. But hey, that is a human nature in it's best... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

essemm
09-02-2004, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:

I am a little steamed because a lot of people blame solely Germany, and that many people do not even recognize the sacrifices that German soldiers made. Even the current German Chancellor is basically a German-hater. He even adopted a Russian kid.

Anyway, there have been many stupid reasons for wars before. Consider the Franco-Prussian war. France's unchained agression made them decide to attack Prussia. Just check out the reasons behind it. I won't bother stating them here, go read about it yourself, but it is funny.

Like I said, France invaded Prussia more than 14 times in the past 4 hundred years without provocation. Germany has invaded France without PHYSICAL provocation maybe twice. As for WW2's invasion of France, they were asking for high reparations from Germany, and Germany could not pay. So, it was provocative, but I labeled it non-physical provocation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before I start, I would like to say, dbzdude87, that I am not personally attacking you at all. I read your post earlier about how people are calling you a Nazi and the like, and hating on Germany. On the contrary, you seem to be a very fine person, and Germany is an incredibly nice place filled with very fine people. It, simply, is my favorite place to visit when I am in Europe.

That being said, I respectfully cannot agree with your view. I agree with you that up until the late 1930s, there was much tension between countries such as France and Germany, as well as between Poland and Germany. However, I certainly didn't see Poland or France or the UK for that matter invading other soverign European nations. Germany did. I hope not to offend any Polish citizens by saying this, but the German war machine was far more advanced then the Polish defending military. They simply were crushed. Why? Not because of tension between Poland and Germany, or France and Germany. It was because Poland was the easiest and first domino to knock over on his way to taking over Europe. Hitler made no secret of the fact that he was GOING to take over Europe, and create a grand race of super-citizens. I would refer you to Mein Kampf (spelling may be a bit off), in which Hitler states that he will be the force that creates the Third Reich. It really doesn't leave much open for interpretation there. Hitler wanted Europe, and he was not going to stop until it was his, or until he was stopped. France, England, and later the USSR and the US realised this, and so they were forced to declare war on Germany in the hopes that they could stave off the mighty German military long enough to attrit the German offensive.

Diplomatic tension is no reason to invade another country. For example: Canada (where I am from) is currently angry at the Iranian Government due to the handling of a case where a Canadian journalist was killed by an Iranian intelligence officer. The Canadian Government is infuriated with the Iranian Government. You certainly don't see us invading Iran, now do you?
I could give umpteen other examples similar to this. The point is that a bit of past tension is no cause for war.

As well, you mentioned that you want people to not bash German soldiers. I will not. They, just like the soldiers of every other nation, are doing their very best to uphold the values of their country, and the representative goverment. German soldiers were a force to be reckned with, as the world saw in the 1940s. I have nothing but respect for every single man, woman and child that fought in their own way in that war...be they German, American, Soviet, French, British, Japanese or any other of the nations that were touched by that terrible war. Please don't think that simply because I don't agree with your view on this, that I am disgracing your heritage, or the soldiers that defended it. It is, however, my belief that the actions of the Government of Germany precipitated World War II.

Best regards. If you do happen to get some people that flame you a bit, please disregard it. People tend to get a bit tense when this thing happens. People just need to remember that each person has a story, and their view will be representative of that story. Not eveybody's story is the same. If you read a flame, don't flame back. Just let it slide, or respond civilly. I find that flaming a flame usually leads to a locked thread.

Peace.

-Steve

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/141103-warloch_small.jpg

Aaron_GT
09-02-2004, 05:39 PM
"The Japanese had imperial designs on the Asian mainland prior to contact with the perfidious westerners. Medieval incursions by Japanese armies into Korea and China occurred only ended in the late 16th Century with the two hundred and fifty years of navel gazing that was the Shogunate. Imperial aspirations were resumed in the mid-19th Century, following the Meji Restoration and the beginings of the industrialisation of Japan and are a function of Japanese chauvinism, not learned imperialism"

Good point. I'd assumed that the Shogun period and isolation had essentially killed off the designs on mainland Asia until contact with Western powers that were actively engaged in mainland Asia indicated to Japan what it was potentially missing out on. Engagement in Asia was proving to be rather lucrative to the Western industrialised nations in terms of raw materials and products such as tea. (After all British conquest of India was initially a commercial operation under the East India Company before it became Imperial per se). I still think the example of the commercial benefits of imperial adventures was quite a draw to the changing Japanese culture of the 19th century.

Ultimately a clash between Japan and the other major powers (UK, France, USA, Russia, Netherlands, Spain having been knocked out of the game) over interests in Asia was fairly inevitable, in the way that Russia and the UK clashed over the gateway to India 100 years previously. Unfortunately millions of people on the Asian mainland, not to mention troops from Western nations and Japan got caught in the middle of it and died in droves.

I suppose in this respect it was much like Poland suffered from the 17th century, being caught between chiefly Germany and Russia, plus Sweden on occasion. An unhappy accident of geography and a large, fertile, but easily traversed land. Hopefully, though, Poland has a much brighter future now. My wife is part Polish and I've met a number of Polish scientists and conferences in the past year, and I have nothing but admiration given what Poland has been through.

mynameisroland
09-02-2004, 06:28 PM
Hey Aaron ,

It was a Treaty that guaranteed the neutrality of Belgium that drew Britain and her Empire in to WW1. So lets face it Britain is no stranger to treaties. I reitterate that France and Britain should not be blamed for their inactivity. If you read about the League of Nations (brain child of the great W Wilson...) you find that the role of protecting Europe (poland in this case) should have fallen to a sort of United Nations organisation but the US dropped out, Britain had its own problems to look after and France retrenched behind her Maginot line. So I dont see how you can snipe at British and French policy making, Germany was a resurgent power economically superior to either Britain and France and perhaps both.

Would a premptive strike against Germany in 1937 have been morally justifiable any more so than a German invasion of Poland?

LStarosta
09-02-2004, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Cool. Then NOW Poland should annex countries like: USA (few milions of Poles here, we should place new capital in Chicago)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Polish people CHOSE to come to America. The Germans were forced inside of another country through territory-stealing.

I don't want anyone here to think that I am disgracing or that I want to disgrace any soldier. I think that all soldiers who died in WW2 deserve respect because they were fighting for what they believe in (except the Poles and Frenchies! JK!!!).

I am a little steamed because a lot of people blame solely Germany, and that many people do not even recognize the sacrifices that German soldiers made. Even the current German Chancellor is basically a German-hater. He even adopted a Russian kid.

Anyway, there have been many stupid reasons for wars before. Consider the Franco-Prussian war. France's unchained agression made them decide to attack Prussia. Just check out the reasons behind it. I won't bother stating them here, go read about it yourself, but it is funny.

Like I said, France invaded Prussia more than 14 times in the past 4 hundred years without provocation. Germany has invaded France without PHYSICAL provocation maybe twice. As for WW2's invasion of France, they were asking for high reparations from Germany, and Germany could not pay. So, it was provocative, but I labeled it non-physical provocation.

And to the Polish guy who said that Poles weren't taught ethnic hatred of Germans in school... you are dead wrong. Check out some textbooks from Poland from the years leading up to WW2 and to somewhere in the 1800s. You will find ethnic hatred!

Also, I never said that Hitler's hatred of Jews or Slavs was a good thing. I limited my debate simply to soldiers/soldiering and the causes of the war in a military sense.

Good day, sirs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


First of all, I find your joke about Polish and French fighting men and women and children to be simply repulsive.

And give me a passage from a Polish textbook that clearly implies hatred of Germans, and I will agree with you. Otherwise, I will say that there was EXTREME bitterness, not only to Germany, but to Austria and Russia for what they did to Poland by wiping it off the map for almost one and a quarter centuries. If someone had done this to your beloved Deutschland, you would feel bitterness as well, wouldn't you, fellow patriot?

And you are not completely correct when you say that Germans were FORCED to live across the border from their homeland. Has it not occured to you that Poles were left on the German side of the border too? And has it not occured to you that sometimes this was intentional, and not just "accidental"? Where do you think your Deutsche Jagdwaffe Experten, such as Grislawski, Krupinski or Nowotny got THEIR last names from? Similarly, many of OUR aces, such as Wünsche, Henneberg, or Mümler got THEIRS from German settlers several generations in the past. Cultural propagation in one form or another exists EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Don't feel victimized by something that has been going on for millenia. Just because there were some people in Poland of German heritage does not give Germany annexation rights BY ANY MEANS! Poland has been victimized far more often in its long history than Germany has, and that did not give us the urge to become a fascist state and attempt to conquer the world, has it?

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

Tooz_69GIAP
09-02-2004, 08:04 PM
Well, no matter what your view, I have seen perhaps 2 or 3 people here who have read more than just what was thrown at them in school and via the history channel, and the rest of you are doing a rather nice job of displaying the fine education that exists in today's educational systems throughout the world.

You don't know the truth, I don't know the truth, and I can pretty much gaurantee the truth is far more complex than any of you can imagine!!

World War Two happened, it sucked, wars will happen again, and they will generally suck also. Not much we can really do about it as it seems to be the nature of man that he will war with himself at the drop of a hat.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

falco_cz
09-03-2004, 12:40 AM
Wallstein, nice post, IMO you are on the spot here.Aslo Stalin was not prepared for war (not he wish it) in mid '41. He aimed at '43 too...maybe we all are lucky, because if war had started in '43 then it ended in nuclear hell..

Jasko76
09-03-2004, 12:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>darkhorizon11
Though theres been some small incidents (like Bosnia Hersgovinia and the Kosovo incident) things have been stabile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG, man, if this wasn't sad, It would have been laughable! 4 years of war and over 200000 dead in Bosnia alone is a "small incident" to you? Say it to all those that perished in concentration camps! Add to that victims in Croatia and Kosovo. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Wannabe historians...

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my riceBURNER!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Rola.
09-03-2004, 12:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
The Germans were forced inside of another country through territory-stealing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's right, Germans stole Polish territory in XVIII/XIXc. (together with Austro-Hungarian empire and tzarist Russia). After that they aggressively started to settle their people here, subsequently removing rights of Polish people e.g. to learn their own language or to Roman-Catholic religion. Don't tell me they don't teach you about Kulturkampf and Bismarck in German school! (or maybe you were playing truant?)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
And to the Polish guy who said that Poles weren't taught ethnic hatred of Germans in school... you are dead wrong. Check out some textbooks from Poland from the years leading up to WW2 and to somewhere in the 1800s. You will find ethnic hatred!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you find anything anti-German in Polish XIXc. books, then you must remember you were the occupant on our land, thus being our enemy. You'll find a great deal of anti-Russian text also, as this was similar case. The great three European empires for once stopped quarreling with each other and ganged up on Polish kingdom to erase it from the map for 123 years. Why? Because these were authoritarian empires and Poland was carrying the light of freedom, being the second country in the world after USA to feature Constitution (yes, France was 3rd). Those empires wantet to wipe out such liberal country from the face of the Earth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
I am a little steamed because a lot of people blame solely Germany
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
..and they should not, as the another culprit was Soviet Union - Nazi-Soviet Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was the agreement on how to divide the central Europe.



Fortunately, I know plenty of young Germans (e.g. from other forums), who don't behave like you. You don't do your country a favor by spreading the old propaganda...

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)
http://www.9-1939.pl/Pliki/bannerGIFen.gif

JtD
09-03-2004, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think that all soldiers who died in WW2 deserve respect because they were fighting for what they believe in<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most soldiers died fighting because they were drawn into service. There wasn't much a Russian or German could do if they got the letter "You're in the Army now".

----

Germans lived in Poland way before Poland was absorbed by Russia and Prussia in the 18th cent. It were the Polish who asked a German to become their King a century before.

HansKnappstick
09-03-2004, 02:14 AM
I have been watching this thread with sadness. It was totally spoilt by one my compatriot who is probably too young or too lazy to attend history lessons in his school, or perhaps he had a strange kind of history teacher (ein Preussischer Treuh¤nder?). I am not certain why such a massive history reversal is more and more en vogue in our country. Why cannot we Germans have just a relaxed look on history: it happened, it was terrible, but there are other Germans in the history books than Hitler and his mates. We do not need to rewrite the WW2 history to look nicer. May we think of Mozart, Schopenhauer or Siemens instead?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:

Polish people CHOSE to come to America. The Germans were forced inside of another country through territory-stealing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What territory did Poland steal from Germany in 1918? Do you mean Warthegau? I am sorry for you if you think it is a German land. It has been Polish for 1000 years before Prussia took it from Poland in 1772/1792. Who forced the PRussians to do that?

And just if you missed it. The Polish-German border was THE MOST STABLE BORDER in Europe before the Frederician ambitions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I don't want anyone here to think that I am disgracing or that I want to disgrace any soldier. I think that all soldiers who died in WW2 deserve respect because they were fighting for what they believe in (except the Poles and Frenchies! JK!!!).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stiftest Du jetzt V¶lkerhass, mein Freund?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Like I said, France invaded Prussia more than 14 times in the past 4 hundred years without provocation. Germany has invaded France without PHYSICAL provocation maybe twice. As for WW2's invasion of France, they were asking for high reparations from Germany, and Germany could not pay. So, it was provocative, but I labeled it non-physical provocation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You read different history books than most of the world, apparently.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And to the Polish guy who said that Poles weren't taught ethnic hatred of Germans in school... you are dead wrong. Check out some textbooks from Poland from the years leading up to WW2 and to somewhere in the 1800s. You will find ethnic hatred!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is, unfortunately, true. But the Bismarck's Kulturkampf (that appears, by the way, to be still going on on you) can be solely blamed for this. Consider that of three occupants of 19c. Poland, Austria didn't make any attempts on any culture or language forcing, and thanks to that non-Austrian (non-Germanic) population was contributing greatly to the country' well doing. That is before the 20th century and its mindless nationalism appeared.

Franzen
09-03-2004, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
A salute to Poland, who all by itself stood up to two dictatorships that overran and dismembered her.

A lesson for democracies here: it is necessary to stand up to dictatorships with actions, not just words. I wonder if poland would not have remained divided and conquered still, if hitler had stopped invading countries after september -39...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Poland did stand up to Germany but under a false sense of security. England and France said they would support Poland in the event of an attack but history has proven otherwise. Sad to say but Poland was a victim of friend and foe.
It's quite possible to say that WW2 would never have happened if Poland had agreed to give Prussia back to Germany, if Japan hadn't gone back on their word to Hitler, if the Treaty of Versaille hadn't been written, if the Serbian government hadn't supported terrorism(can't find a better word), if Russia hadn't oppposed the Austrians in fear of western expansion,.....we can go on forever.

No one can say what today would have been if, if, if, if. The more I learn the more difficult it is to see the root cause of WW2. I feel there were many variables that caused WW2 but no one variable. Let's face it, when economies and national development is at a certain point, adding social situations, war is inevitable and neccessary for survival and future development of nations and peoples.
If we look at the big picture, war is usually a good thing, but that's a political point of view. The human point of view is quite different. Anyways, I'm tired and rambling.

Goodnight.

Fritz Franzen

DuxCorvan
09-03-2004, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
Even the current German Chancellor is basically a German-hater. He even adopted a Russian kid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no! A Russian kid! For sure you think that's terrible! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Ouch, now I can see inside you... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

rwernick
09-03-2004, 07:46 AM
To dbzdude87

Has not occurred to you that one of the first things the NS government did in 1933 was to liquidate all Polish cultural, educational and social institutions within Germany and send many individuals active in these institutions to concentration camps? In Poland German institutions of a similar nature were allowed to function right up until 1938 when it was clear that they had become fronts for espionage and sedition among ethnic Germans.

I agree with my colleagues here that Polish inter-war textbooks did not teach hatred of Germans as such or to look down on German culture. Please justify your statement that they did.

Rola.
09-03-2004, 07:55 AM
I didn't know when I said to dbzdude87 "Fortunately, I know plenty of Germans, who don't behave like you." that my words will work like a spell and somebody like HansKnappstick will arrive. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Big S! Hans!

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)
http://www.9-1939.pl/Pliki/bannerGIFen.gif

[This message was edited by Skibicki on Fri September 03 2004 at 07:08 AM.]

carguy_
09-03-2004, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Yes, Poland did stand up to Germany but under a false sense of security. England and France said they would support Poland in the event of an attack but history has proven otherwise. Sad to say but Poland was a victim of friend and foe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Incorrect.Poland had been leading some conversations with France and England but no safety guarantees were given.
Poland stood up to 3rd Reich much earlier but on May the 5th 1939 J.Beck had stated it clearly.
England gave safety guarantee on 25th July,France did the same 2 days later.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Self-proclaimed dedicated Willywhiner since July 2002

Aaron_GT
09-03-2004, 12:13 PM
Firstly, to carguy, assurances (in the form of a treaty which required that France and Britain intercede if Poland's territory was violated) were given, as were promises of modern aircraft.

mynameisroland wrote:
"It was a Treaty that guaranteed the neutrality of Belgium that drew Britain and her Empire in to WW1."

If Britain essentially had no intention of honouring the treaty then I don't think Britain (I am English, by the way) should have made that treaty. The explanation usually put forward is that the mere fact of a treaty existing was intended to disuade the Germans from attacking, however this had been somewhat undermined by the whole "Peace in our time" debacle.

"If you read about the League of Nations (brain child of the great W Wilson...) you find that the role of protecting Europe (poland in this case) should have fallen to a sort of United Nations organisation"

By 1939 the League of Nations had long ceased to function in any meaningful way, so what should have happened in the League of Nations was pretty irrelevant.

" Germany was a resurgent power economically superior to either Britain and France and perhaps both."

France, Germany, and Britain were in relatively similar economic positions in 1933, mired in the Great Depression. Germany enjoyed some economic resurgence during 1933-9, but you have to compare this with France, Britain, and their empires. Germany was not that economically rich in 1939 in comparasion, merely on an upswing and expansionist, but not on a full war footing economically until 1942.

"Would a premptive strike against Germany in 1937 have been morally justifiable any more so than a German invasion of Poland?"

Actually it would have been, given the apparent intentions of Germany, been slightly more morally justifiable. But I think that there was a moral incentive after 1st September 1939 for more concrete action than took place.

mynameisroland
09-03-2004, 12:53 PM
The League of Nations was meant to prevent the agression of one nation against another. A band of countries that would impose sanctions against agressor nations. You mention that it had now defaulted which is correct but that was due to Americas withdrawal. Why should Britain have to shoulder the burden against Facism almost single handedly? I think that hindsight shows that Britain was not in a position to dictate terms to Germany.

You are taking excerpts from my post without grasping the rest of it. The Empire was economically a burden. The UK was the main economy that dragged along the rest of it. The UK's economy as you have just pointed out was not larger than Germany's yet it had to police , administer , supply and defend her Empire - how many ways can you split a medium sized developed nations economy. Germany was a militaristic economy focused entirely on itself, it had no distractions no moral obligations.

Being English, consider what was more important in the late 30's the Empire or the Poles, the Austrians, the Czechs ect Britain was ill equiped to deal with its own problems let alone the rest of Europes.

Blutarski2004
09-03-2004, 01:21 PM
The contests and rivalries between various regions and ethnicities of Europe can be traced far back into history. Over the past two thousand years, so many waves of conquest and migration have swept back and forth over Europe that any attempt to intellectuallize or rationalize any logical meaning from them is futile.

I have heard it argued by some scholars that this seemingly visceral acrimony between France and Germany can actually be traced back to Roman times, when the Rhine River ultimately came to define the borderline between a more or less Romanized greater Gaul and (after the Roman debacle of the Teutobergerwald) the unsubdued barbarian regions of greater Germania. I do NOT use the term 'barbarian' in a disparaging way, btw.

BLUTARSKI

ploughman
09-03-2004, 04:23 PM
Well, today in 1939 Britain declared war on Germany and World War Two began for us. For those Poles who think Britain betrayed Poland there are 300,000 graves that say we gave our best that it might be otherwise. Not the greatest of sacrifices nor the least but we were there, all the way.

dbzdude87
09-03-2004, 08:22 PM
One of you guys said that no one sees France and England running around taking over places...

Back in those days I sure did. Maybe not France so much, but their glory days were over. Remember what I said: Between 1640 and 1870, France invaded Germany FOURTEEN times without provocation.

You condemn Germany for doing it all of two times, but give France a pass.

As for England. It just loved going around conquering ONE-FOURTH of the world's landmass.

War isn't a great thing, but don't act like Germany is the only one who ever started a war (since you believe Germany wasn't provoked).

On another note: Japan is taking out of it's history books all atrocities it committed in WW2.

If Japan is allowed to do that, Germany should take out the Holocaust from it's history books. After all, butchering 20 millin Chinese is a lot worse than killing around 3-6 million (depending on who's estimates you believe) Jews.

DEUTSCHLAND UEBER ALLES!

Wallstein
09-03-2004, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by falco_cz:
Wallstein, nice post, IMO you are on the spot here.Aslo Stalin was not prepared for war (not he wish it) in mid '41. He aimed at '43 too...maybe we all are lucky, because if war had started in '43 then it ended in nuclear hell..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for answer, pal. I`ll write a short anwer, since I`m tired and a bit drunk (LOL, been at a party today) and I did not read all the preceding posts carefully through.

Anyhow, it looks like people like to discuss this topic a lot. And there are good reasons for that. It is horrifying, difficult and interesting to study the history of the WWII. There are lot´s of books written about it, but none of us (at this forum) here really were there in the WWII. That´s why we can only discuss about what we have heard and what we have been reading or seen on TV etc.

My post was too wide - of course - but that shouldn´t be too bad, I guess. But there is one thing I have learned with my hobby with history (it is my hobby, not profession). And that is, that there is a temptation to simplify complicated things. Yet it is true, that somebody shot the first bullet. Now, let´s say, that hitler decided to invade Poland. It is obviously true, but here comes the snag; how can just one man make decissions like that? Just like that! Naturally he (Hitler) had he´s sponsors etc. And what were their motives for such a thing as invading Poland? This was just one small simple example of the problems in our efforts to understand what has happened before our days. That will do for this...

I agree with you that there was a true possibility for using the atomic weapons had the war been postponed.

There are lot´s of interesting points related to pre-WWII period. It would be nice to discuss them, too. But as said, I`m a bit drunk and tired, so I woun´t even try it (LOL).

I`ll go to bed, so good night!
Wallstein

jensenpark
09-03-2004, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
One of you guys said that no one sees France and England running around taking over places...

Back in those days I sure did. Maybe not France so much, but their glory days were over. Remember what I said: Between 1640 and 1870, France invaded Germany FOURTEEN times without provocation.

You condemn Germany for doing it all of two times, but give France a pass.

As for England. It just loved going around conquering ONE-FOURTH of the world's landmass.

War isn't a great thing, but don't act like Germany is the only one who ever started a war (since you believe Germany wasn't provoked).

On another note: Japan is taking out of it's history books all atrocities it committed in WW2.

If Japan is allowed to do that, Germany should take out the Holocaust from it's history books. After all, butchering 20 millin Chinese is a lot worse than killing around 3-6 million (depending on who's estimates you believe) Jews.

DEUTSCHLAND UEBER ALLES!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh man, you should be banned forever for such ignorance.
It is quite apparent that you are posting this garbage to incite reactions - no one could possible be that ignorant - but regardless, you should be ashamed for posting such ****. Go troll elsewhere.

http://www.corsair-web.com/thistler/rtfoxint.jpg
Buzz Beurling flying his last sortie over Malta, Oct.24, 1942

-dying non-stop online as silverdart

essemm
09-03-2004, 09:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
One of you guys said that no one sees France and England running around taking over places...

Back in those days I sure did. Maybe not France so much, but their glory days were over. Remember what I said: Between 1640 and 1870, France invaded Germany FOURTEEN times without provocation.

You condemn Germany for doing it all of two times, but give France a pass.

As for England. It just loved going around conquering ONE-FOURTH of the world's landmass.

War isn't a great thing, but don't act like Germany is the only one who ever started a war (since you believe Germany wasn't provoked).

On another note: Japan is taking out of it's history books all atrocities it committed in WW2.

If Japan is allowed to do that, Germany should take out the Holocaust from it's history books. After all, butchering 20 millin Chinese is a lot worse than killing around 3-6 million (depending on who's estimates you believe) Jews.

DEUTSCHLAND UEBER ALLES!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somebody ban this guy please.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/141103-warloch_small.jpg

Aaron_GT
09-04-2004, 01:49 AM
"The League of Nations was meant to prevent the agression of one nation against another. A band of countries that would impose sanctions against agressor nations. You mention that it had now defaulted which is correct but that was due to Americas withdrawal. Why should Britain have to shoulder the burden against Facism almost single handedly? I think that hindsight shows that Britain was not in a position to dictate terms to Germany."

I am not suggesting that Britain should have shouldered the burden against fascism alone, but I am suggesting that after making treaties with and solemn promises to Poland it should have abided by them. The only excuse that is possible is that the treaty was simply a bluff to scare Germany into not invading.

"You are taking excerpts from my post without grasping the rest of it. The Empire was economically a burden."

I'm not at all convinced that it was. I have seen arguments in books on the history of the Empire make arguments in both directions. The Empire allowed Britain access to quite a quantity of raw materials and markets for goods with little or no import and export tarrifs that were otherwise common in trade of the day.

"The UK was the main economy that dragged along the rest of it. The UK's economy as you have just pointed out was not larger than Germany's yet it had to police , administer , supply and defend her Empire - how many ways can you split a medium sized developed nations economy."

a lot of the defence of the Empire was conducted by members of the Empire, not necessarily people from the UK itself, apart from administration. Indeed up until 1941 (and even afterwards) India contributed a large number of troops to campaigns in North Africa and India. The West Indies contributed a useful number of airmen, as did South Africa, not to mention Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

After WW2 Britain was economically exhausted by war debt and depleted of manpower and its relationship to its Empire and its status as a world power able to hang onto an Empire had changed radically.

"Being English, consider what was more important in the late 30's the Empire or the Poles, the Austrians, the Czechs ect Britain was ill equiped to deal with its own problems let alone the rest of Europes."

Given that a world war occured that threatended Britain itself, and the fate of the Poles was wrapped up in this, then the actions of Hitler towards the Poles and others became somewhat important!

DuxCorvan
09-04-2004, 04:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
One of you guys said that no one sees France and England running around taking over places...

Back in those days I sure did. Maybe not France so much, but their glory days were over. Remember what I said: Between 1640 and 1870, France invaded Germany FOURTEEN times without provocation.

You condemn Germany for doing it all of two times, but give France a pass.

As for England. It just loved going around conquering ONE-FOURTH of the world's landmass.

War isn't a great thing, but don't act like Germany is the only one who ever started a war (since you believe Germany wasn't provoked).

On another note: Japan is taking out of it's history books all atrocities it committed in WW2.

If Japan is allowed to do that, Germany should take out the Holocaust from it's history books. After all, butchering 20 millin Chinese is a lot worse than killing around 3-6 million (depending on who's estimates you believe) Jews.

DEUTSCHLAND UEBER ALLES!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spanish speakers will understand...

http://www.tiendapyre.com/tienda/images/PORRO%20copia.jpg

Jirozaemon
09-04-2004, 04:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
One of you guys said that no one sees France and England running around taking over places...

Back in those days I sure did. Maybe not France so much, but their glory days were over. Remember what I said: Between 1640 and 1870, France invaded Germany FOURTEEN times without provocation.

You condemn Germany for doing it all of two times, but give France a pass.

As for England. It just loved going around conquering ONE-FOURTH of the world's landmass.

War isn't a great thing, but don't act like Germany is the only one who ever started a war (since you believe Germany wasn't provoked).

On another note: Japan is taking out of it's history books all atrocities it committed in WW2.

If Japan is allowed to do that, Germany should take out the Holocaust from it's history books. After all, butchering 20 millin Chinese is a lot worse than killing around 3-6 million (depending on who's estimates you believe) Jews.

DEUTSCHLAND UEBER ALLES!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So who are you, boy ? You have never posted in the german forum - are you just provoking, or what is your intention ? As a German I feel ashamed to read such words in an international forum...

Revisionist BS !!!
You should be banned permenantly - please Steve...

Jiro

http://www.japancollection.com/pages/reproductions/lg/239.jpg

"Feb 16 1978:

The first computer bulletin board system goes live on an S-100 motherboard and CP/M, and a Hayes 300 baud modem. Ward Christensen and Randy Seuss's Computerized Bulletin Board System still kinda runs to this day, but the Internet has taken the place that BBS's used to have.

And this is why you have no social life, loser. "

[This message was edited by Jirozaemon on Sat September 04 2004 at 03:59 AM.]

Friendly_flyer
09-04-2004, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
On another note: Japan is taking out of it's history books all atrocities it committed in WW2.

If Japan is allowed to do that, Germany should take out the Holocaust from it's history books. After all, butchering 20 millin Chinese is a lot worse than killing around 3-6 million (depending on who's estimates you believe) Jews.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh dear. I guess it's time to repeat some kindergarden knowledge:
Two wrongs doen't make a right.

Fly friendly!

Petter B¸ckman
Norway

Khan ThoR
09-04-2004, 06:25 AM
Hi there folks! I´ve been reading this forum for about a year now without feeling the need to actively participate in here. But this thread ( especially one particular person http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif ) has supplied me with quite a heart attack. Being a german I am very ashamed of this particular person - I cannot understand how people can write such a BS. And I also want to express that I have many friends from Poland ( studying with them ) and I admire polish culture, just to make clear not everybody over here is such an ignorant * and to show not everybody here hates Poland http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Sorry for being a little bit harsh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif , but I could not keep it with me.
God kveld alle sammen...

mynameisroland
09-04-2004, 07:52 AM
to get away from bashing the troll for a second but still semi .. realated to the topic Poland has some beautiful women, i met one last year when she was on exchange and she was just perfect ; - )

Franzen
09-04-2004, 07:57 AM
I'm not agreeing with what dbzdude87 is writing but i also think many are being a little too harsh on him. I'll return to this point.

Here we have what seems to be a younger person stating his opinions and misconceptions. If you take the time to read what he posts with an open mind you'll realize you can often read much worse in this forum.

Back to the first point. It's more disappointing to read "ban! ban! ban!" than to read dbzdude87's post. Everyone in here is a member of the same community and share similar interests. Instead of running for your shotguns or crying for mods why don't you discuss this in an open manner and enlighten him with facts? This is better for the whole community. Do you have any idea where he comes from(I don't mean geographically)? Did anyone ever ask him to support his explain his claims?

All you do is force him to defend himself, therefor cementing his ideas and ideals. Maybe he decides to leave the community and then hasn't a chance to learn other ideas.

My advise for those who claim to know more but would rather attack and try to humilate would be to take a little responsibility and teach and inform. Be a bigger man and earn some respect.

Dnzdude87, you should be a little more choosy on the words you use and how you use them. I understand some of your points but you can catch more flies with honey. You should also know certain words can not be used so freely. Countries develop faster than people.

My intention is not to offend anyone here. We have a pretty good forum and a lot of great posts in here. Many of you really know your history. Wisdom should be shared for the betterment of all.

Fritz Franzen

Jirozaemon
09-04-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
I'm not agreeing with what dbzdude87 is writing but i also think many are being a little too harsh on him. I'll return to this point.

Here we have what seems to be a younger person stating his opinions and misconceptions. If you take the time to read what he posts with an open mind you'll realize you can often read much worse in this forum.

Back to the first point. It's more disappointing to read "ban! ban! ban!" than to read dbzdude87's post. Everyone in here is a member of the same community and share similar interests. Instead of running for your shotguns or crying for mods why don't you discuss this in an open manner and enlighten him with facts? This is better for the whole community. Do you have any idea where he comes from(I don't mean geographically)? Did anyone ever ask him to support his explain his claims?

All you do is force him to defend himself, therefor cementing his ideas and ideals. Maybe he decides to leave the community and then hasn't a chance to learn other ideas.

My advise for those who claim to know more but would rather attack and try to humilate would be to take a little responsibility and teach and inform. Be a bigger man and earn some respect.

Dnzdude87, you should be a little more choosy on the words you use and how you use them. I understand some of your points but you can catch more flies with honey. You should also know certain words can not be used so freely. Countries develop faster than people.

My intention is not to offend anyone here. We have a pretty good forum and a lot of great posts in here. Many of you really know your history. Wisdom should be shared for the betterment of all.

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some do not want to learn... This particular guy has got a very, very wierd view of history.
There is a point where my sense for tolerance or appeasement stops. These posts are a shame for every German who has grown up during the past five decades and for all the victims of that f**king war. Some never learn... Even if he is just a kid he is responsible for his actions. When somebody writes "Deutschland ueber alles" I have to puke...

Besides that I would like to point out that his English is way too good for an average german teenager.
In addition this guy has not posted in the german forum before and his spelling of "œber" is not correct.
I doubt his nationality - I think that he is just a provoking troll...

My two cents

Jiro

http://www.japancollection.com/pages/reproductions/lg/239.jpg

"Feb 16 1978:

The first computer bulletin board system goes live on an S-100 motherboard and CP/M, and a Hayes 300 baud modem. Ward Christensen and Randy Seuss's Computerized Bulletin Board System still kinda runs to this day, but the Internet has taken the place that BBS's used to have.

And this is why you have no social life, loser. "

Franzen
09-04-2004, 08:48 AM
Hi Jiro,

You are probably right but no one seems to haven't taken the time. I understand where you are coming from too. Obviously, by my name you've already realized I'm German also. I was born in Canada into a "Schwaben" family. Everything in my home is where it belongs, strategically placed and I can create copper wire from a penny. I get a feeling of security by following logical steps in many things I do. I build and install industrial machinery for German company in China. I don't believe in stereotypes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Anyway, back to my point.

Just having German blood has earned me names such as "Hitler, Nazi, Jew-killer, and more". Believe it or not, this started in Kindergarten in Canada and ended around the last years of elementary school. I didn't blame the other children for this because I know it wasn't something they thought of on their own. They were taught this.

My point is, sure this guy is pi$$ing many off but I've seen no real attempt to find out why, just many attacks and cries for bans. Maybe he is just trolling. As for his final slogan, maybe he dreams of owning a BMW. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Maybe the intention of his slogan is innocent. "Arbeit machts frei" used to be a positive and innocent slogan before the mid 30's. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, and if that doesn't work we can always tie him to a tree and straffe him with 30mms for a few hours. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz Franzen

Khan ThoR
09-04-2004, 10:25 AM
Well, you´re probably right, Franzen. But the same guy who states that Germany has always been bashed without ( or with little ) reason says that England "loved" to conquer and wage war - or the statement with Schr¶der and the russian kid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif - this is not very objective, either. Anyway, while he may have some valid points, his way of argumentation is quite... debatable at least, is it not?

Franzen
09-04-2004, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khan ThoR:
Well, you´re probably right, Franzen. But the same guy who states that Germany has always been bashed without ( or with little ) reason says that England "loved" to conquer and wage war - or the statement with Schr¶der and the russian kid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif - this is not very objective, either. Anyway, while he may have some valid points, his way of argumentation is quite... debatable at least, is it not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, Schroeder and the Russian kid, I forgot about that one. That was so far out there I couldn't think of a reply. Ok, maybe this guy needs and little rehibilitation(my spelling sucks).

It is a shame he overshadows some valid points with nonsense. Not the best way to debate. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz Franzen

dbzdude87
09-05-2004, 09:11 AM
Hey, I did not misspell ueber. I don't have an umlaut on my keyboard. Therefore, when you have no umlaut you add an 'e'. For example: the word Maedchen. That a is supposed to be an a-umlaut. Unfortunately, my keyboard that I am using now doesn't have it, so I must put an e. Learn German first, before you start thinking yourself high and mighty.

Also, you can't say that my English is too good for the average German teenager. You don't know my life. I lived in Germany for the first half of my life, therefore I am fluent in German. I have lived in America for the other half. Therefore I am fluent in English as well.

Like the one guy said, if you can come back at me, do it with facts, not telling me to be banned. Change my views, don't waste my time.

And there is nothing wrong with saying "Deutschland ueber alles." It is quite similar to the national anthem of America. There is nothing wrong with liking your country better than other countries. Many Americans think they live in the best country in the world, so back off.

And I have not said anything racist (as one guy seems to think). I've said before that I don't wish to dishonor anyone.

And another says that he has Polish friends. Good for you! Did I say every Polish person is bad? There are bad Polish people and good ones. Same for Germans, Japanese, Americans, etc. Geez, even I have Polish friends. Does it really matter that much? No, it doesn't.

It seems to me that a good majority of you are liberals....

Franzen
09-05-2004, 09:45 AM
Dbzdude, good post. I'd like to question the Schroeder/Russian kid thing. I think that one was a little odd.

Just remember dude, you can't say everything or anything you want without offending someone. I agree with some of what you said but this forum is not the place. I won't discuss the reasons here. I don't know how to start a private topic so if you'd like you can start one with me.

Fritz Franzen

ThanasisK
09-05-2004, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Dbzdude, good post. I'd like to question the Schroeder/Russian kid thing. I think that one was a little odd.

Just remember dude, you can't say everything or anything you want without offending someone. I agree with some of what you said but this forum is not the place. I won't discuss the reasons here. I don't know how to start a private topic so if you'd like you can start one with me.

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Left click on name, a small panel appears, select Invite "name" to a private topic and you're good to go.

Franzen
09-05-2004, 09:57 AM
Thx Thanasisk. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

DuxCorvan
09-05-2004, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbzdude87:
It seems to me that a good majority of you are liberals....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no! Liberals! And maybe even... intellectuals! They should kill them all! They are even able to adopt foreign kids! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Listen, buddy. There's nothing bad in liking your country more than others. The problem is that you dislike all countries but yours. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That's called chauvinism. Ah, and Germany is a liberal country. As every democratic western country. Maybe you'd like leading a coup-d'etat and change that. You could send Schr¶der and his Russian kid to a working camp and invade Italy in revenge for Roman Empire offences... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

steve_v
09-05-2004, 10:28 AM
http://home.earthlink.net/~viner45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/143.gif