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konstantinl1
03-11-2004, 12:01 PM
I've been making some naval missions for the Il2 Strumovik and I made a 'hunt the u boats' type one.

Only problem was when I played them the U Boats were indestructable! I hit them with the Il2's cannons and I also had multple direct hits with RS-132 rockets and nothing! I even tried hitting them with 250ib bombs and although I didn't get any direct hits I dropped some close to the submarines, still to no effect.

Surely cannons and rockets which could completey destroy Tiger tanks should be able to deal with a U Boat. I've seen footage of aircraft cannon ripping up surfaced U Boats but it doesn't happen in game!

konstantinl1
03-11-2004, 12:01 PM
I've been making some naval missions for the Il2 Strumovik and I made a 'hunt the u boats' type one.

Only problem was when I played them the U Boats were indestructable! I hit them with the Il2's cannons and I also had multple direct hits with RS-132 rockets and nothing! I even tried hitting them with 250ib bombs and although I didn't get any direct hits I dropped some close to the submarines, still to no effect.

Surely cannons and rockets which could completey destroy Tiger tanks should be able to deal with a U Boat. I've seen footage of aircraft cannon ripping up surfaced U Boats but it doesn't happen in game!

chris455
03-11-2004, 12:23 PM
Interesting. I think I'll try it and get back with you-
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
03-11-2004, 12:39 PM
Yup. I hit one with 1 1,000lb bomb, 1 500lb bomb, and 6 4.5" rockets and ........nothing.
The visual models are beautiful though- better than the subs in SH II !!
I'm thinking maybe they haven't made a damage model for them yet.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

rick_475
03-11-2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by konstantinl1:
I've been making some naval missions for the Il2 Strumovik and I made a 'hunt the u boats' type one.

Only problem was when I played them the U Boats were indestructable! I hit them with the Il2's cannons and I also had multple direct hits with RS-132 rockets and nothing! I even tried hitting them with 250ib bombs and although I didn't get any direct hits I dropped some close to the submarines, still to no effect.

Surely cannons and rockets which could completey destroy Tiger tanks should be able to deal with a U Boat. I've seen footage of aircraft cannon ripping up surfaced U Boats but it doesn't happen in game!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, they are tough to sink. In a mission I succesfully sink a submarine by CHANCE. I made a dive and with my sturmovik's guns I was able to sink it. I was aiming dead center from a very high angle, probably around 70-80 degree angle (and I can't remember if I used rockets too, but no bomb for sure). If you aim on the side of the submarine it will be indestructible. By the way, I wasn't able to repeat that exploit. I must say I didn't play a lot of missions like this one...

rick_475
03-11-2004, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Yup. I hit one with 1 1,000lb bomb, 1 500lb bomb, and 6 4.5" rockets and ........nothing.
The visual models are beautiful though- better than the subs in SH II !!
I'm thinking maybe they haven't made a damage model for them yet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I didn't sink a submarine after all. I'm pretty sure of it tough, it was a submarine.

Chuck_Older
03-11-2004, 12:50 PM
I have AEP installed.

I just made a mission in which a flight of P-51Cs escort P-38s on a raid against the airfeild at Le Havre.

The P-38s definitely sank the Type VII U-boat I tossed in for kicks, with a pair of 500 pounders. I saw the bombs hit, and I saw the explosion, and I definitely watched it sink.

Maybe it is only modelled in AEP, but U-boats have a damge model.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

PE_Mosor
03-11-2004, 12:52 PM
Instead of RS-132 try using BRS-132 rockets! RS are general purpose rockets, while BRS have armour piercing warhead. Aim at conning tower and two or four hits will be more than enought to sunk submarine. Also try HVARs on P-38L, same place, same ammount, same result:-)

chris455
03-11-2004, 02:10 PM
Well, after reading some of these other posts, I went back and tried again (P-47, 4.5" rockets, 1x1,000lb bomb and 2x500lb bombs)
Scored hits with both bombs and rockets and this time when I finally got shot down by the #$%@#$%^& AA guns, I had him on fire, smokin, listing to starboard and down by the stern. But he didn't sink.
I saw on the History channel a few nights ago a show called "The Samurai and the Swastika" about Japanese/German cooperation during WWII.
Methinks the U-boats are made of the same stuff the Ki-84 is made out of. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

pinche_bolillo
03-11-2004, 03:19 PM
bombs are one thing. rockes? not sure about the type, nor have I ever read anything on this matter. lets look at a submarine. it has atleast a 2" 50mm pressure hull that is made of higher quality steel than you will find on the tank. this pressure hull is then surrounded by a 2nd thinner hull which gives the u boat a surface type vessel look about it. also surrounding the pressure hull is the ballast tanks. it is possible that the rockets would detonate on this outer steel and not damage the pressure hull sufficiantly to puncture it. I do not know. consider the fact that the most of the pressure hull lies below the surface.

cannons? I imagine it would take a very stout cannon to puncture the pressure hull of a u boat, considering the outer super structure it has to penetrate before it even reaches the pressure hull. since most of the pressure hull is below the surface while the submarine is surfaced this means the a/p round will also have to deal w/ the water. the upper most part of the pressure hull that is above the water is at such an angle that the round will be striking it at a very shallow angle which will most likely result in it bouncing off the pressure hull.

cannons? I imagine it would take a very stout cannon to puncture the pressure hull of a u boat, considering the outer super structure it has to penetrate before it even reaches the pressure hull.

if I am not mistaken a depth charge weighed 600 lbs and it had to detonate with in 10-20 feet of the submarine to defeat the pressure hull.

in the game, yes the ships are tough for sure. I havent played around with it very much myself, but I have dropped countless bombs on small ships and even crashed my a/c into them repeatedly w/o any ill effects on the ship.

[This message was edited by pinche_bolillo on Thu March 11 2004 at 02:30 PM.]

Chuck_Older
03-11-2004, 03:46 PM
A full salvo from those rockets was equated with a broadside from a destoyer. That's serious firepower.


A Type VIIC U-boat, the most common, was a resilient boat. Just because the pressure hull might not be breached, this does not mean a hit to systems like the ballast tanks would have no effect.

A submersible works by playing with bouyancy. Ideally, the boats (they are considered boats, not ships, in particular, the WWII German U-boat was not a true submarine until the Type XXI appeared, I beleive, but rather a torpedo boat that could submerge for short periods) would be kept at near neutral bouyancy, to allow crash dives to be made quicker. Compressed air is used for displacing ballast (sea water). What would happen if the ballast tanks were breached when the boat is at near neutral bouyancy, or if the boat suffered other damage from an explosive device? One of the possibilities would be an unrecoverable dive. Why?
1) The hatches would not be sealed if the U-boat was confident enough to be surfaced. They would be drawing in fresh air, for the crew and for the deisel engines, (to charge their batteries), or to receive supplies from a ship or re-supply U-boat
2) The boat, if it lost it's compressed air, would be unable to make an emergency blow (blow all tanks). The boat needs to move to manuever. The dive planes are useless if the boat is stopped. Therefore, no compressed air means almost certain loss of the boat if the boat was stopped and damaged enough to make maneuvering difficult.
3) The pressure hull is not perfect. There are many holes in it. Torpedo tubes, supply hatches, crew hatches, sonar gear, radar warning gear, the periscopes, even the head, all must have access to the sea. So do the controls to the ballast tanks, and the driveshafts for the screws. The pressure hull is not a suit of armor http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yes, the pressure hulls were tough. Keil-manufactured boats were considered particularly tough, if I recall correctly. Submarines are fairly fragile, there was no machine of war in existence at the time more complex than a fighting submarine in WWII.
4) There is a limited amount of compressed air. Once it's gone, seawater comes back in through a breach in the ballast tanks.


One thing though: Historically, the U-boat crews were not very good at shooting down enemy aircraft. In FB, they are very good. A real U-boat was not a good gun platform. In FB, they don't have a pitching sea to deal with, among other things.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Von_Zero
03-13-2004, 06:22 PM
I may be wrong but I think in the original Il2, in the Bf109 campaign, there was a mision where you had to sink a surfaced sub. I remember that after a 500kg(i think) bomb hit the sub went down. if they were destroyable in (the ancient) Il2, howcome Oleg forgotted to model them in FB?
I don't have AEP yet, so I dunno.

AlGroover
03-14-2004, 06:16 AM
The only reliable way I've found to destroy a surfaced submarine is to torpedo the thing from the Sturmovik. Some other ships are vulnerable to rockets, but only if you fire off all sets at once.