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73GIAP_Milan
07-09-2004, 06:52 AM
OK, i'm learning to fly the Fw190A5 and A8 in the Original Il2 Sturmovik since i cannot play FB...

I have downloaded the Fw190A9 Flightmanual for FB here and it's full of nice tips and gives very good info on the plane..

Though i still have trouble: the original Il2 sturmovik Fw190A series does NOT even come close to the stated performance and his quite undermodelled.. (read below why i think it is)
My problems are:
>> 1 Outrunning opponents: can't get it done somehow...
>> 2 Getting some ****head off my 6 - i can't shake ppl..

It really annoys me that i cannot fly FB, because the original il2's Fw190 can't get to it's full potential somehow, with manual Proppitch it's even worse and i can't get more then 540KM/u at 1000M or below...
Most of the times i'm forced down to the deck and get my *** kicked... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Some tips on this would be welcome here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


My thoughts on the Fw190 Flightmodel in IL2 Original:

I think the fw190 in the original il2 is quite undermodelled or modelled wrong..
I've been doing some study in the following books
- European Airwar manual
- Screaming Demons Over Europe manual
and some books i have
- Airpower collection
- Airplane collection
- Worlds most famous aircraft - Christopher Chant
- Complete Book of fighters - William Green & Gordon Swanborough
- Complete encyclopedia of Air Warfare

ALMOST all of these state that the Fw190, when it entered service could turn with a spitfire MkV ...later fw190 models (a5 and later) of course not...but still could hold their own in a dogfight..
Further on they state that the fw190 was a highly responcive plane

My findings however are that is indeed responcive EXCEPT on the elevator, i can't even turn with an heinkel he111 because that stated responciveness results in a STALL each time. And i CANNOT hold my own in a dogfight with it somehow, due to lacking performance.
Someone better tell me what's wrong here, because i get really annoyed by this kind of things..Are those books off? or is the Fw190 indeed modelled wrong?

thanks for reading..

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

73GIAP_Milan
07-09-2004, 06:52 AM
OK, i'm learning to fly the Fw190A5 and A8 in the Original Il2 Sturmovik since i cannot play FB...

I have downloaded the Fw190A9 Flightmanual for FB here and it's full of nice tips and gives very good info on the plane..

Though i still have trouble: the original Il2 sturmovik Fw190A series does NOT even come close to the stated performance and his quite undermodelled.. (read below why i think it is)
My problems are:
>> 1 Outrunning opponents: can't get it done somehow...
>> 2 Getting some ****head off my 6 - i can't shake ppl..

It really annoys me that i cannot fly FB, because the original il2's Fw190 can't get to it's full potential somehow, with manual Proppitch it's even worse and i can't get more then 540KM/u at 1000M or below...
Most of the times i'm forced down to the deck and get my *** kicked... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Some tips on this would be welcome here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


My thoughts on the Fw190 Flightmodel in IL2 Original:

I think the fw190 in the original il2 is quite undermodelled or modelled wrong..
I've been doing some study in the following books
- European Airwar manual
- Screaming Demons Over Europe manual
and some books i have
- Airpower collection
- Airplane collection
- Worlds most famous aircraft - Christopher Chant
- Complete Book of fighters - William Green & Gordon Swanborough
- Complete encyclopedia of Air Warfare

ALMOST all of these state that the Fw190, when it entered service could turn with a spitfire MkV ...later fw190 models (a5 and later) of course not...but still could hold their own in a dogfight..
Further on they state that the fw190 was a highly responcive plane

My findings however are that is indeed responcive EXCEPT on the elevator, i can't even turn with an heinkel he111 because that stated responciveness results in a STALL each time. And i CANNOT hold my own in a dogfight with it somehow, due to lacking performance.
Someone better tell me what's wrong here, because i get really annoyed by this kind of things..Are those books off? or is the Fw190 indeed modelled wrong?

thanks for reading..

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

Bremspropeller
07-09-2004, 07:36 AM
U're right, the 190 in IL-2 is indeed pretty screwed.

Best thing is to keep up the airspeed and surprise the enemy.

Since you can't zoom properly in IL-2, B&Z is almost useless.

http://www.ccbirding.com/thw/id/peregrine2--hwi.JPG
Da B&Z bird !

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http://www.jg68.de.vu

VW-IceFire
07-09-2004, 07:43 AM
I don't think any of those sources statea that the FW190 could turn with a Spitfire Mark V. I believe they all use the term (I don't have all of them mind you) that they can outmanuver the Spitfire V and that is certainly possible. As a FW190 pilot and a Spitfire pilot I know the FW190 can do many manuvers (all at higher speeds) that no Spitfire V is going to be able to follow. Even the Spitfire IX is going to have some serious troubles.

Now the A-4 and A-5 are the best turners of the bunch and at high speeds, yes you can turn with Spits...sufficiently enough to pull lead and let them have it in a high speed pass. But in a 300 kph IAS battle...the Mark V has the big turn advantage.

Its not a simple comparison...nor easy to make. But don't start believing that the FW190 is a turn fighter because its not. It wasn't designed as one...the Spitfire certainly has more of that in its roots. Most books list the FW190 as having superior roll, dive, climb, and firepower to the Spitfire Mark V while conceeding that the V has a far superior turn. This makes sense to me and even in FB the FW190 can be flown to take advantage of that.

This all being said, I hear that the FW190 in IL2 was VERY difficult to fly. Never played the game aside from the demo so its hard to say.

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robban75
07-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Apart from rollrate, ruggedness and firepower, the Fw 190 in IL2 has NO advantages. In RL though it was an excellent BnZ and Hit and run machine.
The best way to use it in IL2 is actually close in dogfighting, preferably at extremely low airspeeds. IIRC the Fw 190 in IL2 could hang in its propeller like crazy.
Now, you can't outturn any other plane, nor can you outdive, outclimb and outspeed anyone, but you have a chance to outmanouvre them, very very close in!

I strongly recommend that you get yourself a copy of IL2/FB AEP, the Fw 190 fares alot better now.

Anyways, good luck! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

73GIAP_Milan
07-09-2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't think any of those sources statea that the FW190 could turn with a Spitfire Mark V. I believe they all use the term (I don't have all of them mind you) that they can outmanuver the Spitfire V and that is certainly possible. As a FW190 pilot and a Spitfire pilot I know the FW190 can do many manuvers (all at higher speeds) that no Spitfire V is going to be able to follow. Even the Spitfire IX is going to have some serious troubles.

Now the A-4 and A-5 are the best turners of the bunch and at high speeds, yes you can turn with Spits...sufficiently enough to pull lead and let them have it in a high speed pass. But in a 300 kph IAS battle...the Mark V has the big turn advantage.

Its not a simple comparison...nor easy to make. But don't start believing that the FW190 is a turn fighter because its not. It wasn't designed as one...the Spitfire certainly has more of that in its roots. Most books list the FW190 as having superior roll, dive, climb, and firepower to the Spitfire Mark V while conceeding that the V has a far superior turn. This makes sense to me and even in FB the FW190 can be flown to take advantage of that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are absolutely right on that Ice, and i absolutely know the Fw190 is no dogfighter, but hell...in il2 Sturmovik i can't even turn under 350Km/u without losing so much speed that i'm a sitting duck...

here i have 2 quotes from my manuals:
SDOE states: "The Fw190 joined the Luftwaffe in mid 1941, where it surprised the Spitfires over the beaches at Dunkirk. The Fw190's dove on the Spitfires and destroyed 3 while escaping without a loss. So superior in speed, climb and handling was the fw190 that LW pilots were able to engage and break off at will..."

European Air War manual states:
"When the first version entered service in 1941, it showed marked superiority to it's opponents in almost every aspect-the Fw190 could outrun, outturn(!!!) and outclimb anything(!!!) it encountered. However the later models (including the A8) were primarily intended for bomber intercepts, so they carried more firepower and more armour, but were therefore considerably heavier and less manoeuverable..."

..since those manuals state this, and refer to the early models like the A4 but i can't use the B&Z technique in il2 properly as mentioned by Bremspropellor, what can i do?

And i'm still hopelessly in trouble when someone gets on my 6, since i cannot outturn NOR outrun them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

EDIT: @ Robban: so i should use it as a dogfighter and learn to stallfight it? btw: I DO have a copy of il2/fb, but without AEP...
and to make things worse; my computer is'nt capable of running the game properly, so i't pretty useless to try it online.
I can only do QMB missions 1 on 1 with it, and over there the Fw190 behaves really good..

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

faustnik
07-09-2004, 09:59 AM
Milan,

The old Il-2 190 had a wierd super-turn with combat flaps. Try medium and low speed turns with combat flaps.

Fortunately, in FB, you no longer have to turn with the 190 at all.

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JG52MadAdler
07-09-2004, 10:43 AM
Wierd! the Fw190-A5 In IL2 was always my favorite.
I found it to be the fastest plane in the game.
The flap turn thing was adjusted (Fixed) in the
second to last patch. It was and still is a
great Sim. If you have trouble in IL2 just wait until you climb into a Aces cockpit. You have to be light on the stick becuase the Fw190 forgives no sins.

~S~


Fliege mit Mut, Fliege mit Ehre

Maj_Death
07-09-2004, 12:21 PM
The Fw-190A5 was my favorite in the original IL2. The key to success is not to B&Z but to T&B. I'm not joking, really that is what works. While the Fw-190A5 in IL2 is horribly undermodeled in terms of speed, it is equally overmodeled in terms of full stall agility. Give her 1/2 flaps and try to force a turn fight between 250 and 350km/h. You can also try a full stall climb at 150km/h. Most russian birds fall out of the sky if they try to follow these manuevers while the A5 just floats right through them with little difficulty. I am not going to claim this tactic is realistic but I garuntee it works extremely well once you give it a little practice.

BTW, this "exploit" was fixed in FB so forget about trying it in FB or AEP. Fortunately the lack of speed and high speed agility was also fixed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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73GIAP_Milan
07-09-2004, 01:42 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif wow...so i was using the fw190 the wrong way after all...I'll see what happens if i start turnfighting with it..

i use the A5 the most indeed, the A8 is somewhat too heavy, but has more firepower..

@MadAdler: like i said, i do have FB, and i've flown the Fw190 in it and it flies exact as it should be, way better compared to the original il2 sturmovik, but my computer is too slow to run FB well enough to play online..
So AEP is WAY out of my league http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I'm saving for an upgrade but that will take at least 7 more months before i can afford it.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Can i find some original il2 supporters here maybe? If alot of Flightmodels in that game are modeled wrong, i think that would deserve the original il2 players 1 final patch to solve this..
Guys like me, with a slow computer and no money for an upgrade would surely appreciate it, so will the diehard original il2 players..

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

GTO_68
07-09-2004, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif wow...so i was using the fw190 the wrong way after all...I'll see what happens if i start turnfighting with it..

i use the A5 the most indeed, the A8 is somewhat too heavy, but has more firepower..

@MadAdler: like i said, i do have FB, and i've flown the Fw190 in it and it flies exact as it should be, way better compared to the original il2 sturmovik, but my computer is too slow to run FB well enough to play online..
So AEP is WAY out of my league http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I'm saving for an upgrade but that will take at least 7 more months before i can afford it.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Can i find some original il2 supporters here maybe? If alot of Flightmodels in that game are modeled wrong, i think that would deserve the original il2 players 1 final patch to solve this..
Guys like me, with a slow computer and no money for an upgrade would surely appreciate it, so will the diehard original il2 players..

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still playing IL-2 and would love to have another patch for it, but sooner or later, I imagine I'll wind up buying FB/AEP. I was under the impression that 190's were superior to 109's in rl, but you can't prove it by me in IL-2. I hated them performance wise.

AlGroover
07-09-2004, 11:07 PM
The 200 mission Barbarossa campaign for IL2 was great training for FW190. First 50 missions were in Bf109. The switch to the new 190 was a shock. I hated the thing, which was the experience of many RL pilots. Over the next 150 missions the kill rate went up and the losses went down, so I think it's just a matter of mileage.

73GIAP_Milan
07-10-2004, 02:05 PM
Anymore Original IL2 supporters in here? Help us out and make this game get double gold rating, we need updated flightmodels for ultimate gaming experience... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

Korolov
07-10-2004, 02:49 PM
Edit: Should have read closer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Edit2: What are your system stats?

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

73GIAP_Milan
07-10-2004, 03:25 PM
My system stats:

Intel P3 866MHz
Asus P4C Mainboard
512MB Ram - 3 banks of different brands
Asus Geforce2 GTS V7700 32MB videocard
Creative Soundblaster 1024 Live!
Windows 2000Professional

In short: just enough to play IL2 Original at a fairly decent FPS, Almost enough to play IL2/FB with no more then 4 planes at the same time ingame and WAY too less to even run AEP, BOE or whatever came out, and have NO money for an upgrade for the upcoming year... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

73GIAP_Milan
07-11-2004, 08:30 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif bump?

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik