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View Full Version : Haytham in Rogue [SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY]



Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 01:10 AM
I felt he was just....there. He had no impact on the story nor Shay's character whatsoever. Sure, their relationship was professional and business-like but Haytham just seemed like a pompous A-hole the whole time, he even dissed Edward. Throughout the whole game, Haytham was the version of himself that appeared in this scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9STN94ufc
4:10 - 4:43

I don't know, maybe I was spoiled by sequences 9 and 10 in AC III? Those were easily the highlight of the game because of the interaction and dynamic between Connor and Haytham. Haytham felt like a person in III but more like a Robot in Rogue. Maybe I feel this way because I was expecting more since Ubisoft dubbed Rogue as "the ending of the Kenway saga" (Seriously, what Saga of a family ends when the playable character is not one of them, the only character from said family that appears already had his story fully told and then finally, the remaining two only get name dropped?)

I guess what i'm saying is, I never got it when people said that "Connor's boring without Haytham" because I like Connor. And I like Haytham too but really, Haytham without Connor is just pretty boring.

m4r-k7
12-02-2014, 01:13 AM
Your right, he seemed like a much different person in Rogue.

Rogue showed us a kinda sympathetic side to the Templars, where the guys you worked with had ethical guidelines that they worked by and were actually awesome characters, then you have Haytham who just seemed like a robotic a.hole, which is the complete opposite of AC 3 where Haytham seemed the most ethical out of the Templars.

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 01:16 AM
Your right, he seemed like a much different person in Rogue.

Rogue showed us a kinda sympathetic side to the Templars, where the guys you worked with had ethical guidelines that they worked by and were actually awesome characters, then you have Haytham who just seemed like a robotic a.hole, which is the complete opposite of AC 3 where Haytham seemed the most ethical out of the Templars.
Indeed. Monro was pretty cool in that regard.

Honestly, This is the Haytham that appears when we play as Connor. It's the jaded, bitter, cruel Haytham but I still liked him like that in AC III because of his dynamic with Connor. I dunno, it just made his attitude bearable. Their arguments, their sarcasm and reaction to each others' sarcasms were priceless. In Rogue, Shay is a depressed mess interacting with another depressed mess who hides it by being an a-hole to everybody around him. Like.....there's just nothing there.

GoldenBoy9999
12-02-2014, 01:21 AM
You're not the only one _M. I felt the same way. I kinda sped through the story so it may seem different to others but he didn't see like he was there a great deal of time either. I thought he was supposed to be one of the main side characters but he was there less than I expected.

Also, I know it was just a gameplay video but the first two gameplay trailers had Haytham riding shotgun. Did Haytham ever do that? I can only think of one but I may be mistaking him for Monro.

I thought his personality was lacking as well. I agree with the term "robotic." I expected more out of him. Maybe he was just overshadowed by Shay. :p

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 01:24 AM
You're not the only one _M. I felt the same way. I kinda sped through the story so it may seem different to others but he didn't see like he was there a great deal of time either. I thought he was supposed to be one of the main side characters but he was there less than I expected.

Also, I know it was just a gameplay video but the first two gameplay trailers had Haytham riding shotgun. Did Haytham ever do that? I can only think of one but I may be mistaking him for Monro.

I thought his personality was lacking as well. I agree with the term "robotic." I expected more out of him. Maybe he was just overshadowed by Shay. :p
I watched Rogue's cutscenes twice in their entirety and still felt the same way, so I don't think it has anything to do with speeding through things. If I remember correctly, he's there for most of the last 3 sequences? that's mostly half the game.

I think it was just once, when Shay was hunting Adewale.

Perhaps. Adding to the fact that their relationship was strictly professional, unlike his and Connor's

MakimotoJin
12-02-2014, 01:24 AM
I felt like Haytham was just a boss for Shay.That's very sad,considering how many people wanted them to be close friends.....or more than that.

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 01:25 AM
.or more than that.
You're treading on some Tumblr ice here.

I-Like-Pie45
12-02-2014, 01:39 AM
He's obviously there to get the people who hated everything bout AC3 except him to buy it.

ze_topazio
12-02-2014, 01:43 AM
He was okay, he was just the boss, nothing more, he and Shay had a friendly professional relation and not much more.

I liked Adewale being all kinds of mad when Haytham dissed Edward, i was disappointed that other than that they didn't discussed anything more, his father former quartermaster was there yet he didn't seem to have any kind of interest in him.

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 01:43 AM
He's obviously there to get the people who hated everything bout AC3 except him to buy it.
It feels that way.

"Oh hey, look, it's Haythum. Now, ignore that this is a cash-grab. GO!"


He was okay, he was just the boss, nothing more
Exactly, though, that's just disappointing.


I liked Adewale being all kinds of mad when Haytham dissed Edward, i was disappointed that other than that they didn't discussed anything more, his father former quartermaster was there yet he didn't seem to have any kind of interest in him.
Yeah, it made me even sadder when Adewale died. His defense of Edward was awesome. Edward probably gave him a bro-fist when they met in Assassin heaven.

JustPlainQuirky
12-02-2014, 05:20 AM
I agree, M.

I wouldn't say Haytham's character NEEDS Connor to be good, but his relationship with Shay was definitely too professional to have any dynamic to it.

And because of that Haytham was very predictable and almost underwhelming.

Had Shay and Haytham bonded more, perhaps Haytham would have more chance to open up and blossom.

That being said, Shaytham is still my OTP

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 07:00 AM
I wouldn't say Haytham's character NEEDS Connor to be good, but his relationship with Shay was definitely too professional to have any dynamic to it.
I didn't say he'd need him all the time. I liked Haytham in the early sequences of AC III. Haytham was likable then but without the dynamic with Connor (post AC III sequences), He's just an a-hole with a fancy accent.

Namikaze_17
12-02-2014, 07:29 AM
I think the whole "Bonding" thing with Shay went to Monroe...


I'm kinda disappointed there wasn't more between the two, but it makes sense really.

Haytham gave him an assignment as any grandmaster would, and Shay ultimately succeeded.


There is nothing else...


Unless Shay returns and becomes colonial grandmaster. :rolleyes:

Farlander1991
12-02-2014, 07:57 AM
What is this, a thread that doesn't have hateful dissing going on practically from the very beginning of the thread? *gaaaaasp* Maybe I should visit these forums after all! :D

On a serious note, I agree. Haytham is awesome,and he's far from being one-dimensional per se (though he's more fleshed out in Forsaken, but we're talking about games here, I really think we should base how good game characters are based one, well, games, not novels), but in AC3 his purpose is to be a foil for Connor. The first few sequences are to make him likeable and show how similar Templars and Assassins are, really, but there's no character development, not even an arc being set up. When we meet him as Connor, it's all about the opposition between the Assassin and Templar ideals and these two characters, where Haytham was most interesting.

There is no such opposition in Rogue. There is, however, two points for Haytham being in the game.
1) He's the leader of an Order who listened. Shay said that Precursor Sites are really bad news, and he was like, 'then let's make sure nobody finds them'. That's actually very important for Shay.
2) He's there for the Leader/Best Soldier mirroring at the end, Achilles and Liam vs. Haytham and Shay.

VestigialLlama4
12-02-2014, 08:01 AM
He's just an a-hole with a fancy accent.

He was always that way, there was never any real dimensions to that character, just a familiar type of Colonial James Bond that people projected onto. He was always as Desmond put it in AC3 - "a Templar Plot Twist" to implicate the gamers with the villain and create a personal story for the Assassin Hero. Beyond that, Haytham has no purpose or story to tell.

Namikaze_17
12-02-2014, 08:28 AM
Beyond that, Haytham has no purpose or story to tell.

I suggest you read Forsaken... ;)

Bahjabroni
12-02-2014, 08:30 AM
Just mentioning he's in it in the title was a spoiler tbf.

Namikaze_17
12-02-2014, 08:35 AM
Just mentioning he's in it in the title was a spoiler tbf.

Haytham's been confirmed in the game...

Were you living under a rock or something? :rolleyes:

Farlander1991
12-02-2014, 08:38 AM
Just mentioning he's in it in the title was a spoiler tbf.

He was frequently shown in Rogue promotional materials - screenshots, trailers, gameplay demos. As well as interviews, previews, and all that kind of stuff. It may be a spoiler if you didn't know about it, but since he was revealed officially mention of him is hardly a crime.

VestigialLlama4
12-02-2014, 08:42 AM
I suggest you read Forsaken... ;)

And that proves my point. The story in Forsaken only explains why Haytham was so sentimental towards Connor, that he had this happy childhood and family and that was taken from him and he still commits to being a Templar even if he was made one under false pretenses and that Connor was really his last chance to have that back. It only makes sense in light of the context of the original game.

m4r-k7
12-02-2014, 10:18 AM
I also loved it when Adewale got angry when Haytham spoke badly of Edward. I think there should have been alot more references to past characters, considering this is the end of the American saga or Kenway saga. For example a conversation between Achilles and Adewale about Edward would have been awesome!

Rafe Harwood
12-02-2014, 01:24 PM
Your right, he seemed like a much different person in Rogue.

Rogue showed us a kinda sympathetic side to the Templars, where the guys you worked with had ethical guidelines that they worked by and were actually awesome characters, then you have Haytham who just seemed like a robotic a.hole, which is the complete opposite of AC 3 where Haytham seemed the most ethical out of the Templars.

Ethical? Seriously? You got 'ethical' from that?

No wonder the world is in such dire straights ;)

Absolutely nothing wrong with a dictatorship as long as you're the dictator right? ;)

MakimotoJin
12-02-2014, 06:07 PM
I think the whole "Bonding" thing with Shay went to Monroe...


I'm kinda disappointed there wasn't more between the two, but it makes sense really.

Haytham gave him an assignment as any grandmaster would, and Shay ultimately succeeded.


There is nothing else...


Unless Shay returns and becomes colonial grandmaster. :rolleyes:

American Grand Master.

Namikaze_17
12-02-2014, 06:46 PM
American Grand Master.


Oh yeah that. :rolleyes:

RinoTheBouncer
12-02-2014, 06:49 PM
I agree about this. I mean I was really excited to see Haytham in AC:Ro and all, but I don’t know, I felt like he was just put there as a fan service, nothing more. His moments with Connor in ACIII were a lot more influential and morally gray than this. Here, as you said, he was just there. I believe Rogue is a great game, but it could’ve been a lot better if it was about the 3 Kenway men, rather than Shay. Something like Revelations, telling the remainder of each of those men’s stories.

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 07:51 PM
He was always that way, there was never any real dimensions to that character, just a familiar type of Colonial James Bond that people projected onto. He was always as Desmond put it in AC3 - "a Templar Plot Twist" to implicate the gamers with the villain and create a personal story for the Assassin Hero. Beyond that, Haytham has no purpose or story to tell.
He wasn't like that in pre-Connor AC III, though. He was a genuinely honorable man who was more than just an a-hole with an accent. It's intriguing to watch the vulnerabilities of a badass. His conversations with Pitcairn, Johnson, Lee and Church showed a lot of his personality and he was fleshed out quite well.


What is this, a thread that doesn't have hateful dissing going on practically from the very beginning of the thread? *gaaaaasp* Maybe I should visit these forums after all! :D
It's just my graceful presence. I'm very loved and I rarely cause fights or arguments, as you know.


On a serious note, I agree. Haytham is awesome,and he's far from being one-dimensional per se (though he's more fleshed out in Forsaken, but we're talking about games here, I really think we should base how good game characters are based one, well, games, not novels), but in AC3 his purpose is to be a foil for Connor. The first few sequences are to make him likeable and show how similar Templars and Assassins are, really, but there's no character development, not even an arc being set up. When we meet him as Connor, it's all about the opposition between the Assassin and Templar ideals and these two characters, where Haytham was most interesting.

There is no such opposition in Rogue. There is, however, two points for Haytham being in the game.
1) He's the leader of an Order who listened. Shay said that Precursor Sites are really bad news, and he was like, 'then let's make sure nobody finds them'. That's actually very important for Shay.
2) He's there for the Leader/Best Soldier mirroring at the end, Achilles and Liam vs. Haytham and Shay.
Yeah, for the first point, I definitely agree. He served as a great mirror to what happened with Achilles. I also loved the gesture of trust that Haytham showed Shay as he was asking him about the temples. He took out the amulet and showed it to Shay. It was cool.

The second reason, while understandable narrative and design wise, feels superficial and unfulfilling to me.

Megas_Doux
12-02-2014, 08:37 PM
Interesting point of view, M. However I will wait until I play the game myself -PC player here-, but it certainly makes sense.

Farlander1991
12-02-2014, 09:15 PM
It's just my graceful presence. I'm very loved and I rarely cause fights or arguments, as you know.

Bwahahahahaha. :p

Kaschra
12-02-2014, 10:08 PM
I actually expected Haytham to be... colder and more distant in Rogue.

One thing you have to consider is what happened shortly before Haytham appeared in Rogue in 1758

Spoilers for Forsaken (just in case)

Y'know, the whole deal with Birch's betrayal, learning that he was responsible for the death of Haytham's father, finding out that pretty much his whole life was a lie, and also how his friend Holden was tortured and how he later killed himself.
That's some **** that went down.

I think that is what changed Haytham, considering that he is colder and more cynical when we play as Connor.
And he only warmed up a bit again when he met Connor, his son.




It's just my graceful presence. I'm very loved and I rarely cause fights or arguments, as you know.
Oh Mo, you're such a comedian xD


And I like Haytham too but really, Haytham without Connor is just pretty boring.
You really ARE a comedian :eek:
:rolleyes:

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 10:20 PM
I actually expected Haytham to be... colder and more distant in Rogue.

One thing you have to consider is what happened shortly before Haytham appeared in Rogue in 1758

Spoilers for Forsaken (just in case)

Y'know, the whole deal with Birch's betrayal, learning that he was responsible for the death of Haytham's father, finding out that pretty much his whole life was a lie, and also how his friend Holden was tortured and how he later killed himself.
That's some **** that went down.

I think that is what changed Haytham, considering that he is colder and more cynical when we play as Connor.
And he only warmed up a bit again when he met Connor, his son.

Sure, He's distant, cold and cruel in AC III too but I enjoyed him in AC III. I didn't dislike his attitude at all. He felt like an awesome foil to Connor's optimism and naiveté. Not to mention the sarcasm and subtle insults. It all just worked with how much I liked Haytham in AC III and not so much in Rogue. It's the same character but the dynamic showed that Haytham is really nothing but an a-hole with a fancy accent to me.



You really ARE a comedian :eek:
:rolleyes:
Nah, it's true to me. Throughout Rogue, I found myself disliking Haytham. Yeah, I see where he's coming from and maybe that's why the dynamic between him and Shay felt so empty. Throw 2 characters who are jaded and depressed in a bowl and you'll get Haytham and Shay. It's just simple. Haytham is the same guy we meet as Connor in AC III as he is when we meet him as Shay but I found Haytham to be exceptionally boring in Rogue, thus the conclusion I came to. At first, I kind of saw how people said "Sequences 9 and 10 would be boring without Haytham" I even probably agreed with that but it just baffles me now and I disagree with it. Haytham was boring in Rogue.

He's still one of my favorite characters, though, don't worry. I just disliked him in Rogue.

MakimotoJin
12-02-2014, 10:23 PM
Sure, He's distant, cold and cruel in AC III too but I enjoyed him in AC III. I didn't dislike his attitude at all. He felt like an awesome foil to Connor's optimism and naiveté. Not to mention the sarcasm and subtle insults. It all just worked with how much I liked Haytham in AC III and not so much in Rogue. It's the same character but the dynamic showed that Haytham is really nothing but an a-hole with a fancy accent to me.



Nah, it's true to me. Throughout Rogue, I found myself disliking Haytham. Yeah, I see where he's coming from and maybe that's why the dynamic between him and Shay felt so empty. Throw 2 characters who are jaded and depressed in a bowl and you'll get Haytham and Shay. It's just simple. Haytham is the same guy we meet as Connor in AC III as he is when we meet him as Shay but I found Haytham to be exceptionally boring in Rogue, thus the conclusion I came to. At first, I kind of saw how people said "Sequences 9 and 10 would be boring without Haytham" I even probably agreed with that but it just baffles me now and I disagree with it. Haytham was boring in Rogue.

"Use the mortars,Shay!"
That made me dislike Haytham,after the 11th time.

Kaschra
12-02-2014, 10:27 PM
Sure, He's distant, cold and cruel in AC III too but I enjoyed him in AC III. I didn't dislike his attitude at all. He felt like an awesome foil to Connor's optimism and naiveté. Not to mention the sarcasm and subtle insults. It all just worked with how much I liked Haytham in AC III and not so much in Rogue. It's the same character but the dynamic showed that Haytham is really nothing but an a-hole with a fancy accent to me.



Nah, it's true to me. Throughout Rogue, I found myself disliking Haytham. Yeah, I see where he's coming from and maybe that's why the dynamic between him and Shay felt so empty. Throw 2 characters who are jaded and depressed in a bowl and you'll get Haytham and Shay. It's just simple. Haytham is the same guy we meet as Connor in AC III as he is when we meet him as Shay but I found Haytham to be exceptionally boring in Rogue, thus the conclusion I came to. At first, I kind of saw how people said "Sequences 9 and 10 would be boring without Haytham" I even probably agreed with that but it just baffles me now and I disagree with it. Haytham was boring in Rogue.

I can't really agree with this
Okay, whatever

Assassin_M
12-02-2014, 10:29 PM
I can't really agree with this
Okay, whatever
Of course, that's okay. I didn't expect you to. I was just explaining a revelation I had recently and looked to discuss it with people here, with what little free time I temporarily have, anyway.

Hans684
12-02-2014, 10:39 PM
For me he pretty much was his usual self but more honest and cold that usual. It's like he found out something he never knew and it hit him like a wreaking ball.

Don't kill me, couldn't resist

MakimotoJin
12-02-2014, 10:43 PM
For me he pretty much was his usual self but more honest and cold that usual. It's like he found out something he never knew and it hit him like a wreaking ball.

Don't kill me, couldn't resist

Haha.....I....I see what you did there.