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hughlb2
06-23-2004, 12:08 AM
The laminar flow design apparently gives up to 60% drag reduction to an aircraft. These advantages are clearly seen in the p-51, which is capable of increased speed and range due largely to streamlining.

My question is, once the performance advantages of a laminar flow airfoil were realised, were there any plans to impliment this design feature into other existing aircraft at the time?

I know some other fighters used it (king cobra etc.) what about bombers like the b-29? or fighters like the P-47, or late model Spits, I would think a laminar flow wing would give considerable advantages to these aircraft?

(100th post aniversary questionhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

hughlb2
06-23-2004, 12:08 AM
The laminar flow design apparently gives up to 60% drag reduction to an aircraft. These advantages are clearly seen in the p-51, which is capable of increased speed and range due largely to streamlining.

My question is, once the performance advantages of a laminar flow airfoil were realised, were there any plans to impliment this design feature into other existing aircraft at the time?

I know some other fighters used it (king cobra etc.) what about bombers like the b-29? or fighters like the P-47, or late model Spits, I would think a laminar flow wing would give considerable advantages to these aircraft?

(100th post aniversary questionhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

M.R.Maiornikov
06-23-2004, 12:20 AM
Well as a student in Ecole nationale d'aerotechnique in monteral i can say you this.It's takes a great amount of time and money to implement new technologies like that in an old design plus after that comes the testing which too takes time.But don't consider too much my answer,like i said i'm just a student. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

P.S. usually when new technologies appear,the engeneers start working on a new model and not renewing the old one.

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Gibbage1
06-23-2004, 12:25 AM
The P-63 King Cobra also used the laminar flow wings. Also I think a very late Mk of Spitifre used them as well.

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WOLFMondo
06-23-2004, 12:32 AM
It was the Spiteful...an XIV with a laminar flow wing...some info here:

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2918.htm

It didn't work to well over the original wing by all reports. It was very fast though.

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darkhorizon11
06-23-2004, 01:15 AM
During World War two laminar flow was actually too far ahead of its time.

The B-24 implimented laminar flow. In fact I'm pretty sure it was the first bomber too.

Laminar flow was great for fighters with high power:weight ratios as it allows for even less induced drag. But less induced drag also means much less lift, basically at high speeds its great, but low speeds = ****. The stall speed is much higher, wing loading is ussually lower. Also the wings aren't as thick so there is less room for fuel too.

In the B-24's case, the plane could fly at high altitudes faster and more effciently, but if it was battle damaged or in situations where it had to "limp" home low and slow, Lib crews were in trouble.

Perhaps this is why the Liberator never replaced the great B-17 and was just another aircraft in the fleet.

It wasn't until later when jets became mainstream and speeds leaped past mach 1 that technicians and aircraft manufacturers alike on both sides of the Atlantic embraced the laminar flow which is now the standard for today.

Hope that answers some questions. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Magister__Ludi
06-23-2004, 01:16 AM
There were some other major production ww2 planes that used laminar flow wings:

A-26 Invader, P-63 Kingcobra, Hawker Tempest, even P-80 started production during ww2 and had laminar flow wings. Supermarine Spiteful did not enter production.

JtD
06-23-2004, 01:49 AM
Laminar flow wings of WW2 had everything except laminar flow. The shape of the wing is one thing, but more important you need a very smooth surface. Way to hard to do with ww2 series production and even if achieved absolutely impossible to maintain under field conditions.

What you get is a high critical speed and good high speed flying charateristics, what you loose is a good sustained turn.

Imho still a very good tradeoff.

BBB_Hyperion
06-23-2004, 02:00 AM
Dust and high AoA at slow speeds were at least for the p51 a drawback.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

hughlb2
06-23-2004, 02:17 AM
Good responseshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, but let me ask you this. Would the P-51 have benifited from being fitted with a conventional wing? Lets be honest, its not the best of fighters, but its advantage was that it could fight at ranges greater than most aircraft. Would the addition of a convensional wing, despite improving manouverbility, diminish its range and speed beyond a suitable level for the role it was designed for?

hotspace
06-23-2004, 02:48 AM
I guess it would of been as fast as a Spit IX with slightly less range, but not much.

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JtD
06-23-2004, 03:11 AM
I don't think a conventional wing would have done any good to the P-51. However, it wouldn't deteriorate it's performance under a acceptable level. Probably only a marginal reduction of top speed and range.

WUAF_Badsight
06-23-2004, 03:18 AM
would have made the UFO FM of FBs v2.01 pony understandable if it did have tho . . . . . .

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nixon-fiend.
06-23-2004, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:
Supermarine Spiteful did not enter production.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid this is incorrect, the spiteful did indeed enter production.

After an initial order of 188, 17 were produced. Moreover 10 of the navalised version were also put into service. The air ministry calling a halt to the production after an intial order of 150.

Magister__Ludi
06-23-2004, 04:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nixon-fiend.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:
Supermarine Spiteful did not enter production.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid this is incorrect, the spiteful did indeed enter production.

After an initial order of 188, 17 were produced. Moreover 10 of the navalised version were also put into service. The air ministry calling a halt to the production after an intial order of 150.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't know. Are you sure they were not development aircraft? I knew that a small number was produced, but were they considered to have production status?

Anyway, there is a difference between machines that reached production status and machines that were indeed lunched into production. For example Ju-288, He-100, Fw-190D-1 and even Go-229 reached production status, but they were never produced serially. Certainly Spiteful was not produced serially.

nixon-fiend.
06-23-2004, 04:44 AM
The production of the spiteful was subject to numerous delays and as i stated only 17 of the 188 ordered were produced..

Er.. i think, of these.. 6 or 7 went into RAF charge from late '46 - in early 1947 though the design was branded obselete. after that, a few a/c were retained by supermarine for development purposes, 3 were used for military experiments and the rest put into storage (i forget where.. er something-norton?)

Interestingly - one spiteful (the sole F16) achieved a level speed of 795kmph with 25 lbs boost (which screwed the engine)

Anyone know if a piston a/c ever beat that??

ImpStarDuece
06-23-2004, 06:34 AM
Found these on the aviation-history website and though you might be interested.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The P-51 Mustang is the first aircraft every intentionally designed to use laminar flow airfoils. However, wartime NACA research data I have shows that Mustangs were not manufactured with a sufficient degree of surface quality to maintain much laminar flow on the wing. The RAE found that the P-63, despite being designed with laminar airfoils, also was not manufactured with sufficient surface quality to have much laminar flow <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and this

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The B-24 bomber's "Davis" airfoil was also a laminar flow airfoil, which predates the Mustang's. However, the designers of the B-24 only knew that their airfoil had very low drag in the wind tunnel. They did not know that it was a laminar flow airfoil.

There were several aircraft modified by NACA, in the late 1930s, to have laminar flow test sections on their wings. Hence, such aircraft as a modified B-18 were some of the first aircraft to fly with laminar flow airfoils.

The boundary layer concept is credited to the great German aerodynamicist, Ludwig Prandtl. Prandtl hyposthesized and proved the existence of the boundary layer long before the Mustang was a gleam in anyone's eye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Might add a bit of fuel to the 'Mustangs performance down low' debate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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ImpStarDuece
06-23-2004, 06:36 AM
this is the link BTW if anyones interested

http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lam-flow.htm

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