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Blottogg
09-20-2004, 05:47 AM
With PF (hopefully) just around the corner, I'm trying to get a handle on how IJN and Army flying units were organized. What I've got so far (largely from the back of "Genda's Blade") is this:

Formal organizational titles:
Kokutai = Japanese Naval Air Group
Sentai = Army Air Combat Group
Hikotai = Squadron

"Tactical" formation titles:
Kutai = A Division of four a/c (like a German schwarm or USAAF flight)
Shotai = one to three Kutai
Chutai = three or more Kutai

Terms I've come across that I haven't found referenced in "Genda's Blade" yet, nor listed in any on-line translator, include:

Shimbutai (or Shinbutai) (possibly kimkaze or "special attack" Sentai)
Hiko-Sentai
Humbou (or humbu) (possibly honbu or headquarters)
Seikutai

I'm assuming that all aircraft assigned to a carrier would become part of it's Kokutai (such as the Hiryu Kokotai for the carrier Hiryu), but don't know if that's correct, or if individual aircraft types were assigned to specific Hikotai within the Kokutai.

I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know any more than this, especially after spending two years sharing a base with two Japanese fighter squadrons at Misawa. Can anybody shine any light on this subject?

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

edit - added unknown terms

[This message was edited by Blottogg on Mon September 20 2004 at 05:37 AM.]

Blottogg
09-20-2004, 05:47 AM
With PF (hopefully) just around the corner, I'm trying to get a handle on how IJN and Army flying units were organized. What I've got so far (largely from the back of "Genda's Blade") is this:

Formal organizational titles:
Kokutai = Japanese Naval Air Group
Sentai = Army Air Combat Group
Hikotai = Squadron

"Tactical" formation titles:
Kutai = A Division of four a/c (like a German schwarm or USAAF flight)
Shotai = one to three Kutai
Chutai = three or more Kutai

Terms I've come across that I haven't found referenced in "Genda's Blade" yet, nor listed in any on-line translator, include:

Shimbutai (or Shinbutai) (possibly kimkaze or "special attack" Sentai)
Hiko-Sentai
Humbou (or humbu) (possibly honbu or headquarters)
Seikutai

I'm assuming that all aircraft assigned to a carrier would become part of it's Kokutai (such as the Hiryu Kokotai for the carrier Hiryu), but don't know if that's correct, or if individual aircraft types were assigned to specific Hikotai within the Kokutai.

I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know any more than this, especially after spending two years sharing a base with two Japanese fighter squadrons at Misawa. Can anybody shine any light on this subject?

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

edit - added unknown terms

[This message was edited by Blottogg on Mon September 20 2004 at 05:37 AM.]

VW-IceFire
09-20-2004, 07:05 AM
I wonder how this will all be done now. Maybe there will be nation specific naming schemes...right now its German and Russian. Even when your are flying for the USAAF or the RAF. I wonder...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

Blottogg
09-20-2004, 11:19 AM
Okay, after a little more digging, here's the designations I've found so far (I'm waiting for the UPS guy to show up, and yeah, I've got too much time on my hands):

JAAF
Kokugun = Air Army
Hikoshidan = Air Division
Hikodan = Air Brigade
Sentai = Air Group
Chutai = Squadron or Company
Shotai = Flight or Section (3-4 aircraft)

IJNAF
Kokutai = Air Group
Hikotai = Squadron
Buntai = Group (two Buntai per Hikotai)
Chutai = Flying group of 3+ Kutai
Shotai = 1-3 Kutai
Kutai = Division or Flight (4 aircraft)

Shinbutai (I've also seen Tokubetsu Kogekitai, or Tokkotai for short), is the designation for Special Attack (Kamikaze) units.

The prefix Hiko- means "flight" (the activity, not the unit) and can precede unit designations (like Hiko-Sentai), but is usually dropped. It's also slightly comforting to see that US military branches aren't the only ones to use the same terms to describe very differently sized units.

I've only got one URL for an English-Romaji (phonetic Japanese using the English alphabet) translator, but in these PC times military terms aren't well listed.

http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/jedi

Anybody got anything better? Google searches turn up lots of Kanji (Japanese pictograph) translators, but that won't do me much good without a Kanji keyboard and the skill to use it - neither of which I possess.

IceFire, I hope they include at least some of this stuff in the final release. Not just to satisfy my anal-retentiveness, but because it would add a lot to the atmosphere, and maybe teach me a thing or two as well. At the least they'll have to change to something generic. Saburo Sakai leading "Schwarm Eins" on an airfield bounce would be a definite immersion-killer. And I can't imagine Angry German Guy working the tower at Rabaul.

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

[This message was edited by Blottogg on Mon September 20 2004 at 10:28 AM.]

VF15_Muto
09-20-2004, 10:22 PM
All subject to translation and interpretation ... like most languages, these terms do not translate precisely. The 'Hiko Buntai' has no organizational equivalent in western terminology, so there is no translation.

Also, the Japanese did not adopt 4-plane divisions (or Kutai, as you list above), until 1944. Until then both the IJAAF and IJNAF used 3-plane Shotai as their basic, elemental formation.

However, if you really want to try to translate Japanese organizational terminology, you must distinguish between Administrative and Operational organizational structures in the IJNAF. I think the easiest for an American to understand is per the following post.

S~!
VF15_Muto

[This message was edited by VF15_Muto on Mon September 20 2004 at 09:31 PM.]

VF15_Muto
09-20-2004, 10:36 PM
IJNAF Administrative org as follows:
Koku kantai - Air Fleet (carrier- or land-based).
Koku sentai - Carrier Division (or Air Flotilla for land-based units).
Koku bokan - Carrier-based Air Group
Kokutai - Land-based Air Group
Hikotai - Flight Echelon of Koku bokan or Kokutai
Hiko buntai - Usually the admin equivalent of a Chutai

IJNAF Operational org:
Hikokitai - Carrier-based aircraft Echelon or Wing, or the Flight Echelon of a Kokutai
Daitai - Squadron of 18 to 27 aircraft (Sentai for IJAAF)
Chutai - 9 aircraft
Shotai - Section, or division (3, and later in the war, 4, aircraft)
Buntai - 2-plane element, adopted late in the war as part of a 4-plane Shotai

Shotai = 3 aircraft (later 4)
Chutai = 3-4 Shotai
Daitai = 3-6 Chutai
Hikotai/Kokutai = 2-3 Daitai

Also, loosely you can interpret the prefix 'Hiko-' as the western equivalent of 'Flight-' as you mention above, but there is no exact translation in the way it is used. A 'Koku Taii' is literally a 'Navy Lieutenant', while a 'Hiko Taii' would be a 'Navy Flight Lieutenant'. As the airmen of the IJNAF were celebrated as Samurais in Japanese Military culture, the 'Hiko-' designation is like a coveted term of status, much the way as U.S. Navy Airman prefers the term 'Naval Aviator' to simply 'Pilot'.

S~!
VF15_Muto

[This message was edited by VF15_Muto on Mon September 20 2004 at 09:59 PM.]

aminx
09-20-2004, 11:43 PM
i remember capt shogo explaining all this to us on the FB forum just before PF was anounced in january.He really used to give us long and detailed accounts and lectures on evey aspect of the IJN terminology all the way down to the markings on the planes and what they meant.i think he was kidnapped by Luthier1 about 6 months ago.lets hope we see all the above on our screen when we play the jap side,it'll be great.
aminx

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/wild.gif

Copperhead310th
09-21-2004, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I wonder how this will all be done now. Maybe there will be nation specific naming schemes...right now its German and Russian. Even when your are flying for the USAAF or the RAF. I wonder...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep and there are other "little things" that need expanding/ reworking. like the very limited Aircraft ID codes on the US planes.
id codes that work for the ETO will not work for the PTO. ETO id's were like this:
AB C
PTO were like this:
5th Af: A34
7th AF: 123

they should also allow you yo add your own custom regiments for coops and onlione campains.
while you can add these for online DF's you can do it for off line play or for online coops & campains. that's a total historical/immertion buzz killer. at least for me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

"Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was
a child but it was a lie
that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."Counting Crows

Blottogg
09-25-2004, 01:07 PM
VF15_Muto, thanks for the explaination. Like so much of the Japanese language, I think a lot of this is context sensitive, and it's use probably varied as the war progressed. Gaijin like me are easily left water-skiing behind the subject.

aminx, thanks for mentioning capt shogo's post. I hadn't searched for his post in the FB forums, then got locked out while the update went through. Perhaps the new forum engine will be a little better with searches.

VW-IceFire
09-25-2004, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I wonder how this will all be done now. Maybe there will be nation specific naming schemes...right now its German and Russian. Even when your are flying for the USAAF or the RAF. I wonder...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep and there are other "little things" that need expanding/ reworking. like the very limited Aircraft ID codes on the US planes.
id codes that work for the ETO will not work for the PTO. ETO id's were like this:
AB C
PTO were like this:
5th Af: A34
7th AF: 123

they should also allow you yo add your own custom regiments for coops and onlione campains.
while you can add these for online DF's you can do it for off line play or for online coops & campains. that's a total historical/immertion buzz killer. at least for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
_http://www.310thVFS.com
_
_"Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was
a child but it was a lie
that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."__Counting Crows_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah...more expanded controls in this region would be great for all of us.

aminx
09-25-2004, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blottogg:
VF15_Muto, thanks for the explaination. Like so much of the Japanese language, I think a lot of this is context sensitive, and it's use probably varied as the war progressed. Gaijin like me are easily left water-skiing behind the subject.

aminx, thanks for mentioning capt shogo's post. I hadn't searched for his post in the FB forums, then got locked out while the update went through. Perhaps the new forum engine will be a little better with searches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


hi
if you cant find all his postings dating back to january onwards of this year then you can ask Luthier1 (developer)pacific fighters to put you in direct contact since he is doing a lot of work behind the scenes for the dev team e,g language, military refs, etc
aminx