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Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 12:47 PM
why is ac2 so different
can anyone tell me what makes ac2 stand out so much from every other game in the franchise? I realise it was obviously the story and the cool protagonist but theyre is something about it, the mood or something, that makes it have a certain character that you dont find in the rest of them..
can someone tell me, is it the music, colour, era, mystery element, or what. Because every time i buy a new assassins creed i find myself dying to go back to the days where you didnt know what was going to happen and that everything felt overwhelming.
does anyone even agree with me or am i just rambling?

ace3001
11-21-2014, 12:54 PM
Music, cities, entertaining characters, intriguing modern day story, unexpected ending. Wasn't different gameplaywise, though.

inb4 haters

ze_topazio
11-21-2014, 12:57 PM
There's something special about it that the others don't really have.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 01:04 PM
For me, it was the realistic Renaissance cities, the collectible artworks of the time, the interesting characters and the way it combined the fictional story with the historical narrative. I think it's very telling that Unity attempted to get back some of what the series has lost since AC2, but completely failed to do so. I think Unity shows us that the developers don't know what they're doing since Patrice Desilets left the company.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 01:09 PM
Yeah i think the general idea of it is the same for everyone then..
i think the colour has a big effect, III, Black Flag and Rogue are just too vivid and bright.. ac2 when it was dull outside red became wine and blue became navy,. There was something just so real about it.
perhaps it is the developers not knowing where theyre going..
its funny because as the graphics increase and become more real the story becomes less and the games just seem fake.. in 2 i think you feel like youre an assassin to kill people. In the rest it feels like you want apples and to control or free the world.. its just too much

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 01:20 PM
Rambling. You really like AC:2, so it stands out for you. The city, music, cast, etc, it all clicks with you.

There's nothing wrong with it, nor the other titles, it's just a matter of personal preference. For example, if you ask me, AC:2 doesn't stand out at all. It's right beside Brotherhood, my least favorite entry, on so many components and vibe. AC:3, however, stood out the most for me. The city, music, cast, etc, it was all new, unique, and the breath of fresh air I needed after the Ezio Trilogy. And the following sequels,even Rogue, had never recaptured the same vibe.

ze_topazio
11-21-2014, 01:22 PM
The music have something to do with it no doubt, Jesper Kyd music not only is really good but it also captures the feeling of the era, the place, the story and the series tremendously well.

Zafar1981
11-21-2014, 01:25 PM
Assassin's Creed 2 was the best game due to following reasons

1) Patrice Desilets: Creative Director
2) Jade Raymond: Executive Producer
3) Jasper Kyd: Music Director

That team had left Ubisoft so don't expect another game like AC 2.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 01:35 PM
...if you ask me, AC:2 doesn't stand out at all. It's right beside Brotherhood, my least favorite entry, on so many components and vibe. AC:3, however, stood out the most for me...

So if we ask you, AC2 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers believe to be the best in the series) is one of the worst AC games, whereas AC3 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers consider to be the worst AC game) is the best.

I'm thinking we should stop asking you.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 01:40 PM
So if we ask you, AC2 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers believe to be the best in the series) is one of the worst AC games, whereas AC3 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers consider to be the worst AC game) is the best.

I'm thinking we should stop asking you.


Hmm very nicely put.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 01:43 PM
Assassin's Creed 2 was the best game due to following reasons

1) Patrice Desilets: Creative Director
2) Jade Raymond: Executive Producer
3) Jasper Kyd: Music Director

That team had left Ubisoft so don't expect another game like AC 2.

I think this is probably true.. sad... but true.
the trio are just gifted in what they made, i dont think any a title will pass 2 as the best

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 01:44 PM
To be honest, the only reason I think it's mentioned so often as a defining game is because it was a huge shift of tone from the original and it surprised people by (superficially) fixing the problems of the original. I think it's honestly as flawed as most other AC games, and it tends to be forgiven too much for mistakes that exist in AC games in general.

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 01:45 PM
So if we ask you, AC2 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers believe to be the best in the series) is one of the worst AC games, whereas AC3 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers consider to be the worst AC game) is the best.

I'm thinking we should stop asking you.

You should learn how to put things into context. The post never said AC:3 was better, it's what I, like OP with AC:2, considers to stand out. It's a matter of opinion.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 01:48 PM
To be honest, the only reason I think it's mentioned so often as a defining game is because it was a huge shift of tone from the original and it surprised people by (superficially) fixing the problems of the original. I think it's honestly as flawed as most other AC games, and it tends to be forgiven too much for mistakes that exist in AC games in general.

Like what?
i dont think it was the shift, because unity attempted to completely overhaul the series and people arent having the same reaction wih that.. 3 attempted to shift the series.. introducing hunting, proper ranged weapons, different terrain people had a terrible reaction with that.
2 had a certain feel and mystery about it i dont think it was just because of the superficial differences that people were in love with it. In that case youre saying anyone who is in love with that game the most is probably superficial

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 01:48 PM
Besides, I'm just going to tell you that no, AC 2 is not the defining best game for a lot of people. There are many who like AC: B or AC:R more, many who like AC: 4 and many who like AC:3 as well, believe it or not. Not to mention that AC:3 pretty much sold the most and had a solid critical reception. AC:2, for all the good reviews sold 1 million more than AC:1, and the numbers dropped during the Ezio games till AC:R, where they were lower than AC:1.

D.I.D.
11-21-2014, 01:49 PM
It's the prettiness of it. AC2 is a world full of beautiful things, where even its bad sides are dramatically minimised, and there's something bad going on under the surface. It's an extremely clean place, viewed through a dreamy soft focus. Young Ezio's voice, hair and expressions are flamboyantly overstated, making him more like a 90s/00s Disney prince than a person of his time.

This was a really nice contrast in some ways, but I doubt it can be repeated again. Either the human side of the drama would have to be enormously improved, or the cities would have to present a more balanced picture of the good and bad of the Renaissance period, or both. AC2 is so popular because it's the closest thing the series has to a fantasy game, so it appeals to all kinds of people: action/adventure fans, history fans, RPG fans, Disney/Pixar fans, knife-crime enthusiasts, hobbyist poisoners, etc.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 01:51 PM
Besides, I'm just going to tell you that no, AC 2 is not the defining best game for a lot of people. There are many who like AC: B or AC:R more, many who like AC: 4 and many who like AC:3 as well, believe it or not. Not to mention that AC:3 pretty much sold the most and had a solid critical reception. AC:2, for all the good reviews sold 1 million more than AC:1, and the numbers dropped during the Ezio games till AC:R, where they were lower than AC:1.

Go look at any poll on which game is better.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 01:54 PM
In terms of the cities, music, and those aspects I understand...


It puzzles me however when someone says it had the best story/characters. O__O

Not a fanboy or anything, but the characters and stories of AC2/ACB are equivalent to a children's book really.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 01:56 PM
You should learn how to put things into context..


"Stand-out" / "Best" - yeah, there's a real distinction there.

The problem is not that I took your words out of context. The context is clear. The problem is that you seem to think your personal opinion matches popular opinion, when in fact, it doesn't.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 01:59 PM
The problem is not that I took your words out of context. The context is clear. The problem is that you seem to think your personal opinion matches popular opinion, when in fact, it doesn't.

When was Fatal ever trying to match his opinion with the popular opinion?

D.I.D.
11-21-2014, 02:02 PM
In terms of the cities, music, and those aspects I understand...


It puzzles me however when someone says it had the best story/characters. O__O

Not a fanboy or anything, but the characters and stories of AC2/ACB are equivalent to a children's book really.

Yes, and they're better at what they aimed to be than the characters in many of the other games.

It's alright to be silly and Princess Bride-ish if you commit to it and hit your mark. It's not okay to aim for dramatic maturity and totally miss the target.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 02:04 PM
Besides, I'm just going to tell you that no, AC 2 is not the defining best game for a lot of people. There are many who like AC: B or AC:R more, many who like AC: 4 and many who like AC:3 as well, believe it or not. Not to mention that AC:3 pretty much sold the most and had a solid critical reception. AC:2, for all the good reviews sold 1 million more than AC:1, and the numbers dropped during the Ezio games till AC:R, where they were lower than AC:1.

Yes, but "many" doesn't mean "most". Most people who have played all the games in the series agree that AC2 is the best game in the series. And everyone knows that the marketing for AC3 sold a lot of copies through pure hype. It's the same reason Michael Bay movies do so well at the box office - people are like sheep, and if you tell them over and over again that a crappy game is going to be fantastic, they will go out and buy it in droves, and "many" of them will defend their choice and insist that a bad game is actually really good. That doesn't mean they're right - it means they're probably deluded. Selling well and getting good reviews are two completely different things.

It's pretty obvious that there's a sort of "Connor Club" here - a vocal minority that likes to downplay AC2 and keep up the pretense that AC3 is the best AC game, but I prefer to live in the real world.

Latte10010
11-21-2014, 02:04 PM
Venice and those Tuscany cities were so beautiful. You can enjoy just strolling around, decorating the house.
The trailer was really cool, too.
If they can re-master the game 1080p for PS4, I would definitely buy it and do it all over again!!

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 02:05 PM
The problem is not that I took your words out of context. The context is clear. The problem is that you seem to think your personal opinion matches popular opinion, when in fact, it doesn't.

LUL

An opinion matching another opinion? You should hear yourself.

Never mind the obvious fact that this is a forum, where people share their opinions, I, again, never said my opinion was the definitive one (nor does one exists). It's an example for my main point. I'll repeat, put things into context. Or better yet, learn to.

If it helps you sleep at night, pretend my example was about AC:R giving me a more distinctive difference.


It puzzles me however when someone says it had the best story/characters. O__O

Not a fanboy or anything, but the characters and stories of AC2/ACB are equivalent to a children's book really.

A lot of people enjoy rhetorical non-thought provoking stories. They're what sell when it comes to the masses. Some would as far as to say AC:B had a good story, and has a hard time deciding which was better.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 02:10 PM
Yes, and they're better at what they aimed to be than the characters in many of the other games.

It's alright to be silly and Princess Bride-ish if you commit to it and hit your mark. It's not okay to aim for dramatic maturity and totally miss the target.

*Nods Head* I guess you have a point, but if anything, I think AC2 took away from the original formula in AC1 where everything felt gray and ambiguous.

Like you couldn't tell who was right or wrong, which I liked. :)

Then AC2 came and blah. I don't hate it though, just not my cup of tea for an AC game.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:13 PM
Venic and those Tuscany cities were so beautiful. You can enjoy just strolling around, decorating the house. The trailer was really cool, too.
If they can re-master the game 1080p for PS4, I would definately buy it and do it all over again!!

Definitely agree with you there, id buy that up!

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 02:14 PM
When was Fatal ever trying to match his opinion with the popular opinion?

Well, I'm glad to see you recognize that his opinion doesn't match popular opinion.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:15 PM
LUL

An opinion matching another opinion? You should hear yourself.

Never mind the obvious fact that this is a forum, where people share their opinions, I, again, never said my opinion was the definitive one (nor does one exists). It's an example for my main point. I'll repeat, put things into context. Or better yet, learn to.

If it helps you sleep at night, pretend my example was about AC:R giving me a more distinctive difference.



A lot of people enjoy rhetorical non-thought provoking stories. They're what sell when it comes to the masses. Some would as far as to say AC:B had a good story, and has a hard time deciding which was better.

Rhetorical non-thought provoking? That makes absolutely no sense..

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:16 PM
Like what?
i dont think it was the shift, because unity attempted to completely overhaul the series and people arent having the same reaction wih that.. 3 attempted to shift the series.. introducing hunting, proper ranged weapons, different terrain people had a terrible reaction with that.
2 had a certain feel and mystery about it i dont think it was just because of the superficial differences that people were in love with it. In that case youre saying anyone who is in love with that game the most is probably superficial

I think I need to explain a bit.

See, AC:1 was considered a mediocre game when it was released, inspite of selling very well. People wrote off the game as a one time wonder and said that there was no hope for the AC franchise. So, AC:2 was heavily marketed as a game that fixed AC:1's problems. For instance, it claimed to have a variety of missions(even though a lot of them were just as simplistic as AC:1's, only with more story), a lot of sidequests( which were often nonsensical tasks like "run around the city to deliver a letter!", "beat up my cheating husband!", "assassinate some random enemies!"), a lot of side content(which was often more or less variations of the flags in AC:1). It also had a variety of weapons(which were pointless considering how every enemy was vulnerable to one form of counter or the other), an economy system(there hardly was anything worth buying besides medicines, and money was found very easily, thus breaking the economy), and assassin tombs(which were interesting but also showed how problematic the freerunning was for precision platforming). It also was dramatically different from AC:1 in tone, by being in a cheery location, Renaissance Italy which was a stark contrast to the Holy Land during the crusades. The more colourful, exaggerated templates also contributed to it.

So when AC:2 came out, many people considered it a huge improvement to AC:1, and it was well received.

I can't say much about AC:3, but what I feel is that people were disappointed in AC:3 thanks to the fact that it was glitchy on release, had the design flaws of previous AC games more prominent, was more unfocused than any AC game before it, and had a disappointing closure to the main story. People expected it to be a "true" new AC game and improve on the mechanics the same way AC:2 did on AC:1. They were tired of playing the same game after AC:2 with some ancillary additions randomly included. What they got instead was an AC game that had cities which hindered freerunning, more ancillary additions to the game, less variety in scenery although the seasons were nice, and muddled up modern day levels.

What I've been hearing with Unity is that the problem isn't with the mechanics(although some people who're used to AC games being easy have complained about the mechanics being harder to use), it's with the glitches, sluggish controls, bad story and lack of variety in the missions. I don't know how far these complaints are true, but some of them do seem valid.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:18 PM
Go look at any poll on which game is better.

Internet polls in general are not a good measure of public opinion. Very few of the customers of AC games actually use forums, type comments or the like.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:20 PM
Yes, but "many" doesn't mean "most". Most people who have played all the games in the series agree that AC2 is the best game in the series.

Where is the evidence for this? Don't point at internet forums or polls, give me good statistical proof.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 02:20 PM
Rhetorical non-thought provoking? That makes absolutely no sense..

It's simple...

Name one AC2 conversation that really made you think and reflect?


Well, I'm glad to see you recognize that his opinion doesn't match popular opinion.


When did I ever- 0__0

I see what you're trying to do. :rolleyes:


Where is the evidence for this? Don't point at internet forums or polls, give me good statistical proof.

There never is proof really...

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:28 PM
There never is proof really...

Well.. here's an idea. Make Ubisoft send forms to all the customers who bought AC asking about it, and then collect all of them carefully. You could also try and use a research group to accurately get a statistically large enough sample to know which game is liked the most.

In short, anything that covers a huge amount of the AC consumers or uses good statistical methods to get a good representative sample. So not internet forums, polls or Youtube comments.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:28 PM
Internet polls in general are not a good measure of public opinion. Very few of the customers of AC games actually use forums, type comments or the like.

Fair enough but look at reviews, critics who have played the games. And the polls are still representative of the people who do go on the internet. Thats like saying anyone who doesnt like ac2 basically stays off polling websites. Like youre sayin its mostly ac2 fans who vote.... well the reason for that is because there are more of them

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:31 PM
Fair enough but look at reviews, critics who have played the games.

Critics who were talking about the game 5 years ago. That's a long time in the video game industry, and a lot of things change since then.

Besides AC:4 got a critical reception comparable to AC:2, and a lot of reviewers did like AC:4.


well the reason for that is because there are more of them

Maybe it's just that they spend more time in the forums? Besides in several forums I've seen AC:4 being compared as a worthy game to AC:2, with some even considering it better.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 02:33 PM
Well.. here's an idea. Make Ubisoft send forms to all the customers who bought AC asking about it, and then collect all of them carefully. You could also try and use a research group to accurately get a statistically large enough sample to know which game is liked the most.

"Nah, that's too much work. I'll just come on the internet and claim it as fact." :rolleyes:

But i'd be game if they did that though.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:35 PM
Critics who were talking about the game 5 years ago. That's a long time in the video game industry, and a lot of things change since then.

Besides AC:4 got a critical reception comparable to AC:2, and a lot of reviewers did like AC:4.



Maybe it's just that they spend more time in the forums? Besides in several forums I've seen AC:4 being compared as a worthy game to AC:2, with some even considering it better.

That is a ridiculous statement, why would it be just AC2 fans who go on polling sites more? That makes no sense.. why would that be the case?
Yes i understand SOME people consider IV better. MOST people that have voted, which can be taken as representative for the rest of the community, consider ac2 the best, stop trying to argue for no reason.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:37 PM
That is a ridiculous statement, why would it be just AC2 fans who go on polling sites more? That makes no sense.. why would that be the case?
Yes i understand SOME people consider IV better. MOST people that have voted, which can be taken as representative for the rest of the community, consider ac2 the best, stop trying to argue for no reason.

Actually, the number of people voting for AC:4 is pretty close to the number of people voting for AC:2. Just check some polls in this forum.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 02:38 PM
Internet polls in general are not a good measure of public opinion. Very few of the customers of AC games actually use forums, type comments or the like.

So yeah, rather than use polls, reviews or anything that might have an ounce of logic as a basis for a comparison of AC games, let's just accept the word of a few AC3 advocates that AC2 is mediocre and AC3 is best.

Makes perfect sense.


Actually, the number of people voting for AC:4 is pretty close to the number of people voting for AC:2. Just check some polls in this forum.

Okay, so let me get this straight. When polls disagree with your opinion, they're "not a good measure of public opinion", but when they tend to favor your viewpoint, then they're important enough that you advise people to go check them.

LOL.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:38 PM
Actually, the number of people voting for AC:4 is pretty close to the number of people voting for AC:2. Just check some polls in this forum.

Ok lets get something clear. Nearly 1st means 2nd...

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:40 PM
So yeah, rather than use polls or anything that might have an ounce of logic, let's just accept the word of a few AC3 advocates that AC3 is best.

Makes perfect sense.

I never said that AC:3 is the best game, or is considered such. Just that it is the most profitable game and not enough proof exists to say that AC:2 is the definite favourite of most AC consumers.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:40 PM
So yeah, rather than use polls, reviews or anything that might have an ounce of logic as a basis for a comparison of AC games, let's just accept the word of a few AC3 advocates that AC2 is mediocre and AC3 is best.

Makes perfect sense.

I agree with this. Polls arent 100% representative so lets go with one or two people who think they are 100% representatives!

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:41 PM
I never said that AC:3 is the best game, or is considered such. Just that it is the most profitable game and not enough proof exists to say that AC:2 is the definite favourite of most AC consumers.

Polls, polls exist. They are enough proof. They are as close as you can get! Unless ubi send out a census to every ac owning home!

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:42 PM
Ok lets get something clear. Nearly 1st means 2nd...

Well, but there are cases where AC:4 surpasses AC:2 too. The point is, AC:2 is not an uncontested favourite of the fans.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:43 PM
So yeah, rather than use polls, reviews or anything that might have an ounce of logic as a basis for a comparison of AC games, let's just accept the word of a few AC3 advocates that AC2 is mediocre and AC3 is best.

Makes perfect sense.



Okay, so let me get this straight. When polls disagree with your opinion, they're "not a good measure of public opinion", but when they tend to favor your viewpoint, then they're important enough that you advise people to go check them.

LOL.

Hahaha prometheus nicely spotted!

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 02:44 PM
Polls = Opinion

Opinion =/= Fact

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:46 PM
Polls = Opinion

Opinion =/= Fact

Correction: Polls = Popoular Opinion
popular opinion = as close to fact as can possibly be oobtained.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:46 PM
Okay, so let me get this straight. When polls disagree with your opinion, they're "not a good measure of public opinion", but when they tend to favor your viewpoint, then they're important enough that you advise people to go check them.

LOL.

I never said that either. Dukie keeps bringing up that AC:2 is the most voted in polls, I'm telling Dukie that isn't necessarily true.


Correction: Polls = Popoular Opinion

You don't know anything about statistics do you?

ace3001
11-21-2014, 02:46 PM
A lot of people enjoy rhetorical non-thought provoking stories. They're what sell when it comes to the masses.

That sounds so pretentious and holier-than-thou. A simple story doesn't mean a bad story. Simple characters doesn't mean unlikable. AC2 had likable characters, more so than AC3. AC3 had a few like Haytham and Achilles, but most of the cast is forgettable. AC4 was a lot better in this regard.

And another thing when saying AC2 had a good story, people don't just talk about the past story. The Ezio trilogy is where the modern day story was at its peak. It was full of mystery and intrigue, making people eagerly wait for the next installment. You can't just throw that part of the games away when criticizing them.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:49 PM
That sounds so pretentious and holier-than-thou. A simple story doesn't mean a bad story. Simple characters doesn't mean unlikable. AC2 had likable characters, more so than AC3. AC3 had a few like Haytham and Achilles, but most of the cast is forgettable. AC4 was a lot better in this regard.

And another thing when saying AC2 had a good story, people don't just talk about the past story. The Ezio trilogy is where the modern day story was at its peak. It was full of mystery and intrigue, making people eagerly wait for the next installment. You can't just throw that part of the games away when criticizing them.

Well, to be honest the story in AC:2 had its moments, but the flaws in writing always distracted me from the good things. Shamus Young thoroughly covered all the flaws of AC:2's storytelling in his articles and the Spoiler Warning series. Search for yourself.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 02:50 PM
Dukie, the problem we're running into here is that there is a vocal minority here who see any thread that celebrates AC2 as a de-facto attack on their beloved AC3. These folks are always ready to jump into any thread to call into question the fact that AC2 is the most popular game in the franchise.

If you go back through the thread, you'll notice that just two or three people are posting a whole lot, and not about the thread topic. They're just ranting about how AC2 is not all it's cracked up to be, which is trolling pure and simple.

I've finally come to the conclusion that it's best to ignore these people.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 02:51 PM
Let me reveal a secret, from what I've seen, I don't think AC:3 is particularly good or better than AC:2. :p

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:51 PM
I never said that either. Dukie keeps bringing up that AC:2 is the most voted in polls, I'm telling Dukie that isn't necessarily true.



You don't know anything about statistics do you?

Ok go on to the 3 most popular polling sites for ac and check which game is on top.
i know enough that polls open to the general public are representative of the public. What do you know about it?

D.I.D.
11-21-2014, 02:52 PM
*Nods Head* I guess you have a point, but if anything, I think AC2 took away from the original formula in AC1 where everything felt gray and ambiguous.

Like you couldn't tell who was right or wrong, which I liked. :)

Then AC2 came and blah. I don't hate it though, just not my cup of tea for an AC game.

Yeah, I understand. ACII isn't my favourite either, and I'm glad the series veered away from some of its approach, but I also enjoyed it for what it was. It reminded me of the fairy tale atmosphere of Prince Of Persia: Sands Of Time, which I absolutely loved.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:53 PM
That sounds so pretentious and holier-than-thou. A simple story doesn't mean a bad story. Simple characters doesn't mean unlikable. AC2 had likable characters, more so than AC3. AC3 had a few like Haytham and Achilles, but most of the cast is forgettable. AC4 was a lot better in this regard.

And another thing when saying AC2 had a good story, people don't just talk about the past story. The Ezio trilogy is where the modern day story was at its peak. It was full of mystery and intrigue, making people eagerly wait for the next installment. You can't just throw that part of the games away when criticizing them.

It does i agree, i think the stories modern and historic in ac2 are great. Does that mean im a robot of the masses?

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:54 PM
Yeah, I understand. ACII isn't my favourite either, and I'm glad the series veered away from some of its approach, but I also enjoyed it for what it was. It reminded me of the fairy tale atmosphere of Prince Of Persia: Sands Of Time, which I absolutely loved.

Now you see this is an opinion. This i can respect and its fair enough.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:55 PM
Dukie, the problem we're running into here is that there is a vocal minority here who see any thread that celebrates AC2 as a de-facto attack on their beloved AC3. These folks are always ready to jump into any thread to call into question the fact that AC2 is the most popular game in the franchise.

I've finally come to the conclusion that it's best to ignore these trolls.

Youre right, i just let myself get dragged in. We have polls on or side... you know, the things that represent the community as a whole?

Mathias_Borealis
11-21-2014, 02:55 PM
ac3 is an underrated title but ac2 is the best. at this moment i would like ubisoft to polish ac unity with patches and get a pause of 2 years in making a new assassin creed...they don't have those 3 persons anymore but there's way more people behind a game....even if i somewhat miss more jesper kid because he's for sure the only mind behind ac2 and ac brotherhood musics..

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 02:59 PM
ac3 is an underrated title but ac2 is the best. at this moment i would like ubisoft to polish ac unity with patches and get a pause of 2 years in making a new assassin creed...they don't have those 3 persons anymore but there's way more people behind a game....even if i somewhat miss more jesper kid because he's for sure the only mind behind ac2 and ac brotherhood musics..

Nice to see someones getting back to the post.
i agree kids music was unique and its atmosphere was brilliant.
2 years would be pain*** but i definitely agree that they should

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:00 PM
I think I need to explain a bit.

See, AC:1 was considered a mediocre game when it was released, inspite of selling very well. People wrote off the game as a one time wonder and said that there was no hope for the AC franchise. So, AC:2 was heavily marketed as a game that fixed AC:1's problems. For instance, it claimed to have a variety of missions(even though a lot of them were just as simplistic as AC:1's, only with more story), a lot of sidequests( which were often nonsensical tasks like "run around the city to deliver a letter!", "beat up my cheating husband!", "assassinate some random enemies!"), a lot of side content(which was often more or less variations of the flags in AC:1). It also had a variety of weapons(which were pointless considering how every enemy was vulnerable to one form of counter or the other), an economy system(there hardly was anything worth buying besides medicines, and money was found very easily, thus breaking the economy), and assassin tombs(which were interesting but also showed how problematic the freerunning was for precision platforming). It also was dramatically different from AC:1 in tone, by being in a cheery location, Renaissance Italy which was a stark contrast to the Holy Land during the crusades. The more colourful, exaggerated templates also contributed to it.

So when AC:2 came out, many people considered it a huge improvement to AC:1, and it was well received.

I can't say much about AC:3, but what I feel is that people were disappointed in AC:3 thanks to the fact that it was glitchy on release, had the design flaws of previous AC games more prominent, was more unfocused than any AC game before it, and had a disappointing closure to the main story. People expected it to be a "true" new AC game and improve on the mechanics the same way AC:2 did on AC:1. They were tired of playing the same game after AC:2 with some ancillary additions randomly included. What they got instead was an AC game that had cities which hindered freerunning, more ancillary additions to the game, less variety in scenery although the seasons were nice, and muddled up modern day levels.

What I've been hearing with Unity is that the problem isn't with the mechanics(although some people who're used to AC games being easy have complained about the mechanics being harder to use), it's with the glitches, sluggish controls, bad story and lack of variety in the missions. I don't know how far these complaints are true, but some of them do seem valid.

*slow clap*

AC2 had great music and setting, but as much as people like to claim otherwise, the story is really not that special. Graphically it's the ugliest AC game to date (even back when it was released it looked outdated) and its combat is the most simplistic (besides Black Flag). What it did have was a sense of adventure, a simplistic Hollywood approach to characters and storytelling (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). It added a lot of stuff that have since become a staple of the AC franchise, for better or for worse. There's a lot of nostalgia for it here and on other sites, probably partly because people are suffering from franchise fatigue and in their minds AC2 has become something untouchable. They forget or ignore the bad aspects, such as the dumbing down of enemy AI, watered down combat, plastic character models, lack of moral greyness, lack of replayable missions, uninspired dialogue and annoying quicktime events. It's still a good game, but not the perfect masterpiece many people claim it is.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 03:03 PM
*slow clap*

AC2 had great music and setting, but as much as people like to claim otherwise, the story is really not that special. Graphically it's the ugliest AC game to date (even back when it was released it looked outdated) and its combat is the most simplistic (besides Black Flag). What it did have was a sense of adventure, a simplistic Hollywood approach to characters and storytelling (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). It added a lot of stuff that have since become a staple of the AC franchise, for better or for worse. There's a lot of nostalgia for it here and on other sites, probably partly because people are suffering from franchise fatigue and in their minds AC2 has become something untouchable. They forget or ignore the bad aspects, such as the dumbing down of enemy AI, watered down combat, plastic character models, lack of moral greyness, lack of replayable missions, uninspired dialogue and annoying quicktime events. It's still a good game, but not the perfect masterpiece many people claim it is.

"In your opinion."

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:04 PM
"In your opinion."

Every single post in this thread is someone's personal opinion.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 03:05 PM
Dukie, the problem we're running into here is that there is a vocal minority here who see any thread that celebrates AC2 as a de-facto attack on their beloved AC3. These folks are always ready to jump into any thread to call into question the fact that AC2 is the most popular game in the franchise.

If you go back through the thread, you'll notice that just two or three people are posting a whole lot, and not about the thread topic. They're just ranting about how AC2 is not all it's cracked up to be, which is trolling pure and simple.

I've finally come to the conclusion that it's best to ignore these people.

Riiiiigggghhhtttt. Because everyone who doesn't place AC2 on a pedestal is a deranged fanboy. :rolleyes:

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:09 PM
I used to get annoyed at AC3 fanboys/girls who couldn't accept the idea that it was okay to criticize their favorite game for perfectly valid reasons. Now I'm starting to get annoyed with AC2 fans who are doing the same thing.

People have different reasons for liking different games. Deal with it.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 03:10 PM
AC2 had great music and setting, but as much as people like to claim otherwise, the story is really not that special. Graphically it's the ugliest AC game to date (even back when it was released it looked outdated) and its combat is the most simplistic (besides Black Flag). What it did have was a sense of adventure, a simplistic Hollywood approach to characters and storytelling (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). It added a lot of stuff that have since become a staple of the AC franchise, for better or for worse. There's a lot of nostalgia for it here and on other sites, probably partly because people are suffering from franchise fatigue and in their minds AC2 has become something untouchable. They forget or ignore the bad aspects, such as the dumbing down of enemy AI, watered down combat, plastic character models, lack of moral greyness, lack of replayable missions, uninspired dialogue and annoying quicktime events. It's still a good game, but not the perfect masterpiece many people claim it is.

Ah, now it's the "backhanded compliment" tactic.

Can we get back on topic?

Reminder: the topic is not "How is AC2 disappointing?"

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:12 PM
Ah, now it's the "backhanded compliment" tactic.

Can we get back on topic?

Not a backhanded compliment, just a fair assessment of the good and bad sides of a game. You know, like how you're supposed to evaluate games?

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 03:14 PM
What was the topic in the first place anyway? Why AC:2 stands out more, or why AC:2 is considered the best game by some fans?

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 03:16 PM
I used to get annoyed at AC3 fanboys/girls who couldn't accept the idea that it was okay to criticize their favorite game for perfectly valid reasons. Now I'm starting to get annoyed with AC2 fans who are doing the same thing.

I can take criticism, I even agree with some as AC3 wasn't a perfect game.

It's just when people think their mere opinion equals to fact is where I get annoyed. -__-


People have different reasons for liking different games. Deal with it.

This.


What was the topic in the first place anyway? Why AC:2 stands out more, or why AC:2 is considered the best game by some fans?

Good question... *Sips tea*

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 03:17 PM
I must say it's amusing to see how a topic about why AC:2 is a stand out game is enough to distract people from bashing Unity for a change. Quite refreshing, to be honest. :D

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 03:17 PM
That sounds so pretentious and holier-than-thou. A simple story doesn't mean a bad story. Simple characters doesn't mean unlikable. AC2 had likable characters, more so than AC3. AC3 had a few like Haytham and Achilles, but most of the cast is forgettable. AC4 was a lot better in this regard.

That's partially my point. I had this debate with Sixkeys, pro advocate for Brotherhood, a long time ago. A simple story like Brotherhood may also enhance the game for people better than, say, AC:3. Besides the other problems, AC:3's story had trouble representing itself (e.i Connor's goals came off ambiguous / Charles Lee's drastic change in character after sequence 3). In Brotherhood, everything aligned and delivered a near perfect balance of what it was. However, I feel it was best done in Brotherhood because it was short. In AC:2, it came off counter-intuitive.

However, I disagree with the likable part. It's too subjective AC:2's characters are too cliche and one-dimensional to be likable. And as Farlander have criticized, the characters pops in and out far too much. Sometimes, they're just redundant from the start. e.i - that thief you stole a boat for. They were as likable as AC:3's homestead residents, but at least some of AC:3's homestead residents had some development. With AC:3, I could argue that there were a ton more interesting and likable characters. However, more doesn't always mean better. Your examples, Haytham and Achilles, are arguably far more superior and memorable than any of Ezio's side cast combined.


And another thing when saying AC2 had a good story, people don't just talk about the past story. The Ezio trilogy is where the modern day story was at its peak. It was full of mystery and intrigue, making people eagerly wait for the next installment. You can't just throw that part of the games away when criticizing them.

Modern Day never had its peak, but if anything, that's in Brotherhood or AC:3, not AC:2.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:19 PM
Reminder: the topic is not "How is AC2 disappointing?"

The topic was "AC2 is better than the other games" which is a subjective opinion - and demonstrably false if we're evaluating stuff like AI and graphics - hence people are debating over it.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 03:20 PM
*slow clap*

AC2 had great music and setting, but as much as people like to claim otherwise, the story is really not that special. Graphically it's the ugliest AC game to date (even back when it was released it looked outdated) and its combat is the most simplistic (besides Black Flag). What it did have was a sense of adventure, a simplistic Hollywood approach to characters and storytelling (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). It added a lot of stuff that have since become a staple of the AC franchise, for better or for worse. There's a lot of nostalgia for it here and on other sites, probably partly because people are suffering from franchise fatigue and in their minds AC2 has become something untouchable. They forget or ignore the bad aspects, such as the dumbing down of enemy AI, watered down combat, plastic character models, lack of moral greyness, lack of replayable missions, uninspired dialogue and annoying quicktime events. It's still a good game, but not the perfect masterpiece many people claim it is.

I Agree 1000 times with this!!!!!!


"In your opinion."

The graphics thing can almost be considered fact, AC 2 has the worst ingame models and draw distance to a point in which is not even close.....


I used to get annoyed at AC3 fanboys/girls who couldn't accept the idea that it was okay to criticize their favorite game for perfectly valid reasons. Now I'm starting to get annoyed with AC2 fans who are doing the same thing.

People have different reasons for liking different games. Deal with it.


I dislike fanboyism in general.


And well, AC II just plain worked and it came in the right time! That is best way I can describe it; much to it relies on the fact it improves the lack of side quests in AC I, its BRILLIANT soundtrack and a more colorful general approach of the Italian renaissance cities and a protagonist that joyful he even goes to the "ladies" after his family is executed. Besides, after many annual releases the nostalgia factor kicks in.....

Edit
AC II peak in regards of modern story????

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

That is either ACB or AC III.

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 03:21 PM
The topic was "AC2 is better than the other games" which is a subjective opinion - and demonstrably false if we're evaluating stuff like AI and graphics - hence people are debating over it.

That's not even talking about how if it were just full of people praising AC:2, there'd be nothing to discuss, and the thread would die out. Threads and forums exist for discussion, and it's natural for people's perspectives to clash during discussions. That doesn't mean they should be dismissed.

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 03:30 PM
Finally, some more people who are here to discuss and criticize the topic. I was about to give up on this thread, haha.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:32 PM
However, I disagree with the likable part. It's too subjective AC:2's characters are too cliche and one-dimensional to be likable. And as Farlander have criticized, the characters pops in and out far too much. Sometimes, they're just redundant from the start. e.i - that thief you stole a boat for. They were as likable as AC:3's homestead residents, but at least some of AC:3's homestead residents had some development. With AC:3, I could argue that there were a ton more interesting and likable characters. However, more doesn't always mean better. Your examples, Haytham and Achilles, are arguably far more superior and memorable than any of Ezio's side cast combined.

Regarding characters, I think people are forgetting that the reason AC2's cast feels so strong is because most of them appeared in ACB one year after. Bartolomeo d'Alviano was really a pretty pointless character in AC2. The only time you met him, he was just a random captain you had to save from prison and he just yelled a lot. In ACB he got a bit more character development, so people remember him. Machiavelli only had a tiny role in a DLC, yet people think he was a great character. Why? Because he had a much larger role in ACB. But how many people think Ugo, Teodora or Antonio were truly memorable characters?


Modern Day never had its peak, but if anything, that's in Brotherhood or AC:3, not AC:2.

Agreed. AC2's modern day was almost entirely negligible, probably because people had criticzed it's abundance in AC1 so they tried to minimize it as much as possible in AC2. In ACB they found a good balance, IMO.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 03:39 PM
That's not even talking about how if it were just full of people praising AC:2, there'd be nothing to discuss, and the thread would die out. Threads and forums exist for discussion, and it's natural for people's perspectives to clash during discussions. That doesn't mean they should be dismissed.

This thread is not supposed to be about discussion of whether AC2 is or is not better than other games. It's supposed to be about WHY it stands out. Sure, forums exist for discussion, but they exist for discussion of the topic, not for discussion criticizing the premise of the topic. If the thread dies out, so be it - the point of a thread is not to keep conversation going no matter what.


Finally, some more people who are here to discuss and criticize the topic. I was about to give up on this thread, haha.

Again, I realize the AC3 fans and other AC2 detractors want to hijack the thread, but the first post in the thread was pretty clear in terms of what the OP wanted to get at - and it's this:


"What... makes [AC2] have a certain character that you don't find in the rest of them."

I realize it's a hard concept for some to grasp, but it's kind of a fundamental rule of forums that threads should stay on topic.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:51 PM
This thread is not supposed to be about discussion of whether AC2 is or is not better than other games. It's supposed to be about WHY it stands out. Sure, forums exist for discussion, but they exist for discussion of the topic, not for discussion criticizing the premise of the topic. If the thread dies out, so be it - the point of a thread is not to keep conversation going no matter what.

AC2 stands out because it was a sequel with mass appeal in comparison to its more indie-like predecessor. They dumbed down the AI, dialogue, combat and parkour, so it became easier to play, hence it was more accessible to a larger audience.

Latte10010
11-21-2014, 03:52 PM
I love AC, too. But it was all about atmosphere, and being "stealth" like Ninja was new at the time.
Who the **** dare to travel to Damascus these days.... playing the game, "traveling" those ancient cities was fascinating.
But around the end of the game, I thought the game was a bit questionable and I wanted to kill all those noisy kids around.

By the way, I think this topic is not talking about AC2 is better, it's how AC2 was special.
"different" is used for such meaning, right?

AC2 is very special and stand out, yes I think so!! ( and I thought AC3 was totally ****ed up)

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 03:54 PM
This thread is not supposed to be about discussion of whether AC2 is or is not better than other games. It's supposed to be about WHY it stands out.

Whether or not AC:2 stands out is pretty subjective. But if you were to ask me, I gave my answer already. I'll repost it here:


To be honest, the only reason I think it's mentioned so often as a defining game is because it was a huge shift of tone from the original and it surprised people by (superficially) fixing the problems of the original.

Also, you're forgetting that the original post has this part:


does anyone even agree with me or am i just rambling?

The person here asks whether anyone agrees with him or not. Not everyone does of course.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 03:55 PM
I love AC, too. But it was all about atmosphere, and being "stealth" like Ninja was new at the time.
Who the **** dare to travel to Damascus these days.... playing the game, "traveling" those ancient cities was fascinating.
But around the end of the game, I thought the game was a bit questionable and I wanted to kill all those noisy kids around.

By the way, I think this topic is not talking about AC2 is better, it's how AC2 was special.
"different" is used for such meaning, right?

AC2 is very special and stand out, yes I think so!! ( and I thought AC3 was totally ****ed up)

OP assumes AC2 was somehow "special", which is a highly subjective personal opinion.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 04:07 PM
This thread is not supposed to be about discussion of whether AC2 is or is not better than other games. It's supposed to be about WHY it stands out. Sure, forums exist for discussion, but they exist for discussion of the topic, not for discussion criticizing the premise of the topic. If the thread dies out, so be it - the point of a thread is not to keep conversation going no matter what.
.

AC II took all the "flaws" appointed by fans and critics alike and ended up getting away with much the rest AC┤s get torched for. My two cents on that:

1 An overall lighter and more joyful tone! If AC I was, so to speak, Pegi 18, AC II was Pegi 13. Easier combat, easier assassinations, more black/white story with dumber dialogues, etc, etc.
2 One of the best soundtracks ever, not that I dislike AC I┤s, but AC II was superb.
3 AC I barely had side quests, AC II did.
4 Altair was an uber necro straight character, whereas Ezio made jokes and such. A more likeable guy.
5 The Italian renaissance.


Summarizing, AC II appeared in the right time.

And No! I┤m NOT an AC III fanboy...

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 04:27 PM
Summarizing, AC II appeared in the right time.

Yeah. I doubt AC:2 would be as well received by critics if say, AC:4 came out after AC:1, followed by AC: Rogue, Unity and several other games and AC:2 came out the day Unity would have come out.

ace3001
11-21-2014, 04:34 PM
Regarding characters, I think people are forgetting that the reason AC2's cast feels so strong is because most of them appeared in ACB one year after. Bartolomeo d'Alviano was really a pretty pointless character in AC2. The only time you met him, he was just a random captain you had to save from prison and he just yelled a lot. In ACB he got a bit more character development, so people remember him. Machiavelli only had a tiny role in a DLC, yet people think he was a great character. Why? Because he had a much larger role in ACB. But how many people think Ugo, Teodora or Antonio were truly memorable characters?



Agreed. AC2's modern day was almost entirely negligible, probably because people had criticzed it's abundance in AC1 so they tried to minimize it as much as possible in AC2. In ACB they found a good balance, IMO.

You bring up a good point about characters. When I think of an AC2 character, it's hard for me to just look at what that character was in AC2 alone. But I still find them more likable to characters that were introduced in ACB.

As for modern day, I don't see why you would say almost entirely negligible. AC2 was the first game where we were given a glimpse as to what was really going on, with its ending and the video unlocked by the glyphs. With the glyphs scattered throughout, they managed to keep an air of mystery, keeping the player guessing. The mood was a lot different after things were out in the open.
Of course, this alone wouldn't mean much. It's just one part of the whole that is AC2, and it's the entire thing that is memorable.


Yeah. I doubt AC:2 would be as well received by critics if say, AC:4 came out after AC:1, followed by AC: Rogue, Unity and several other games and AC:2 came out the day Unity would have come out.
That's the natural evolution of technology. After AC4, any previous game would've been a downgrade. But after Unity, I don't know, really. Any AC game that works as expected would be a plus after that.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 04:36 PM
Yeah. I doubt AC:2 would be as well received by critics if say, AC:4 came out after AC:1, followed by AC: Rogue, Unity and several other games and AC:2 came out the day Unity would have come out.

Yep. Blame franchise fatigue.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 04:42 PM
I think the introduction of Ezio was a big part of AC2's success. He is still, by far, the franchise's most likeable playable character. In both AC2 and Brotherhood he had an inquisitive nature and a sense of humor that is absent in any other of the playable characters in the Assassin's Creed series. Edward Kenway and Arno come closest to Ezio's charisma, but both of them are still worlds away. Also, AC2 had the most engaging love story, which was continued in Brotherhood. AC1 and AC3 essentially didn't have any romance at all for the main playable characters, while those of Revelations, AC4 and Unity are perfunctory at best.

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 04:43 PM
Yeah. I doubt AC:2 would be as well received by critics if say, AC:4 came out after AC:1, followed by AC: Rogue, Unity and several other games and AC:2 came out the day Unity would have come out.

Nailed it.

ace3001
11-21-2014, 04:46 PM
Nailed it.

What makes you think AC2 is somehow specific in that? You think AC3 would've been received well if it was released after AC4?

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 04:48 PM
As for modern day, I don't see why you would say almost entirely negligible. AC2 was the first game where we were given a glimpse as to what was really going on, with its ending and the video unlocked by the glyphs. With the glyphs scattered throughout, they managed to keep an air of mystery, keeping the player guessing. The mood was a lot different after things were out in the open.
Of course, this alone wouldn't mean much. It's just one part of the whole that is AC2, and it's the entire thing that is memorable.

I was only talking about the time you actually spend outside the Animus. The glyphs are optional, so a lot of players initially missed out on the whole Subject 16 and "the Truth" stuff. The time you spend as Desmond is limited to the 10-minute opening scene, the 10-minute training session with Lucy and maybe 2 times when you exit the Animus with nothing to do except talk to other characters (optional) and have a blackout before waking up as Alta´r. Compare with AC1 where every sequence was bookended by Desmond getting out of the Animus.

I'm not talking about which approach was better, just that AC2's minimal Desmond content was clearly a response to the backlash to AC1.

In ACB we started the game by entering underground beneath Monteriggioni, we could get out of the Animus any time we wanted, we could talk to the other characters a lot more, read e-mails, collected artifacts from Ezio's time in Monteriggioni, parkoured around an old cathedral, entered the Colosseum and explored Juno's temple. That's excluding ACB's glyphs which ended with us meeting Subject 16. ACB really had a lot more modern day content than either of its predecessors.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 04:50 PM
I think the introduction of Ezio was a big part of AC2's success. He is still, by far, the franchise's most likeable playable character. In both AC2 and Brotherhood he had an inquisitive nature and a sense of humor that is absent in any other of the playable characters in the Assassin's Creed series. Edward Kenway and Arno come closest to Ezio's charisma, but both of them are still worlds away. Also, AC2 had the most engaging love story, which was continued in Brotherhood. AC1 and AC3 essentially didn't have any romance at all for the main playable characters, while those of Revelations, AC4 and Unity are perfunctory at best.

AC2 had a love story?

Surely you're not talking about Cristina, who had a grand total of three lines in AC2 and whom Ezio creepily stalked and sexually assaulted in ACB?

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 04:51 PM
What makes you think AC2 is somehow specific in that? You think AC3 would've been received well if it was released after AC4?

No game would be.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 04:53 PM
What makes you think AC2 is somehow specific in that? You think AC3 would've been received well if it was released after AC4?

I think it's interesting that AC3 was released after the game that was thought to be the blandest of the series up to that point, AND Ubisoft hyped it like there was no tomorrow, yet it still got terrible reviews and players generally found it disappointing.

AC2 may have had its faults, but what faults it did have were nowhere near as disappointing as those of AC3 or Revelations, and that's why it is still generally regarded as not just one of the best, but THE BEST Assassin's Creed game.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 04:53 PM
I think the introduction of Ezio was a big part of AC2's success. He is still, by far, the franchise's most likeable playable character. In both AC2 and Brotherhood he had an inquisitive nature and a sense of humor that is absent in any other of the playable characters in the Assassin's Creed series. Edward Kenway and Arno come closest to Ezio's charisma, but both of them are still worlds away. Also, AC2 had the most engaging love story, which was continued in Brotherhood. AC1 and AC3 essentially didn't have any romance at all for the main playable characters, while those of Revelations, AC4 and Unity are perfunctory at best.

Opinion are opinions, but AC II┤s "love" store lasts for 5 memories......... LOL !!!!!! WE never see Cristina again after we leave Florence.

The problem UBi face is this:

1 If Ubi try to recreate it again it will fail because the lack or originality.
2 If Ubi try something different it will fail too.

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 04:54 PM
Also, AC2 had the most engaging love story, which was continued in Brotherhood. AC1 and AC3 essentially didn't have any romance at all for the main playable characters, while those of Revelations, AC4 and Unity are perfunctory at best.

AC:2 had an engaging love story? Now I'm questioning your integrity on the franchise. Haytham and Ziio's relationship in AC:3 was 10x the engaging love story. Even Connor's relationship with Deborah had more meat.

Sdwakias
11-21-2014, 04:55 PM
So if we ask you, AC2 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers believe to be the best in the series) is one of the worst AC games, whereas AC3 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers consider to be the worst AC game) is the best.

I'm thinking we should stop asking you.

By this logic, Justin Bieber is one of the best pop musicians right now... And Frozen is an amazing cartoon movie that is so much better than all the other cartoon movies ever released... Seriously, people follow other peoples' logic most of the time. AC3 was the best game in the franchise mainly because the story felt real and not forced, unlike Ezio's. Someone that witnesses the loss of his father and brothers cannot just say "I want to leave as far as possible" when he is offered by his uncle to be trained in order to bring justice. I did like that Mario got angry on him, but it was just too unrealistic, even for a rich boy. Of course he had to protect his mother and sister, but I'm pretty sure nobody would hurt them in the huge castle his uncle got... Not to mention he got cocky very fast. He considered his self a master Assassin in Brotherhood... I mean.. What?

When it comes to the setting, it's clear that Italy is far more appealing than America, but that doesn't mean squat. I liked how they changed the setting so drastically. It was awesome to be in the wild as an Assassin. So it all comes down to personal preferrances.
Music was pretty much on the same level. Most of AC2's soundtrack weren't that good, but tracks such as Ezio's Family, Venice Rooftops and some other non-released tracks made up for it. AC3 had a different music style, but still reached AC2's level.

The only problem with AC3 was the pace of the story, but its quality easily made up for it. To be honest, though, I found Revelations' story far more interesting.

Also, the worst AC is clearly AC1. Be honest on this... Story was dull and unexplained. Too repetitive. Not so smooth animations. Easier than even AC3 was. And not forget the whole huge area between the 3 towns that was totally wasted... The same goes with AC4. All those damn islands and you can't do squat with them. They should have added a modding kit so that people could make their own villages.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 05:00 PM
Opinion are opinions, but AC II┤s "love" store lasts for 5 memories......... LOL !!!!!! WE never see Cristina again after we leave Florence.

You're thinking of ACB's love story. AC2 just had this girl Ezio had sex with at the beginning and who was never seen again for the rest of the game.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 05:04 PM
You're thinking of ACB's love story. AC2 just had this girl Ezio had sex with at the beginning and who was never seen again for the rest of the game.

My bad I just used the wrong amount, AC II "love story" lasts for TWO memories and you just sleep with the girl....Saying "AC2 had the most engaging love story" is just NONSENSE.


PD I liked Cristina┤s memories in ACB, by the way.

Dukie2k10
11-21-2014, 05:04 PM
The topic was "AC2 is better than the other games" which is a subjective opinion - and demonstrably false if we're evaluating stuff like AI and graphics - hence people are debating over it.

The Topic was not is ac2 better than other games!
i asked why it feels so different! I just asked what made it stick out from the rest, i was askin if it was the music, setting, colour, story or what!

ace3001
11-21-2014, 05:05 PM
AC:2 had an engaging love story? Now I'm questioning your integrity on the franchise. Haytham and Ziio's relationship in AC:3 was 10x the engaging love story. Even Connor's relationship with Deborah had more meat.

...Who's Deborah again?

That aside, though, even I don't see what can be considered as a good love story in AC2. If they had added the Christina memories in the proper places in AC2 rather than sticking them out like sore thumbs in ACB, maybe there would've been a chance, but even then, I'm not so sure.
Personally, I prefer Ezio's relationship with Sofia. It wasn't much, but I liked the whole "learning to love again after all this time" thing about it.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:06 PM
You're thinking of ACB's love story. AC2 just had this girl Ezio had sex with at the beginning and who was never seen again for the rest of the game.

Wasn't that Christina? :rolleyes:

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 05:07 PM
AC3 was the best game in the franchise mainly because the story felt real and not forced

LOL. Yeah, right. Because there was nothing at all "forced" about one Mohawk guy being the deciding factor in every defining moment of the American Revolution. Yeah, that felt totally natural.

Honestly, you AC3 fans crack me up. I mean, listening to you folks, one would think that AC3 was the height that all other games in the series should aspire to,, rather than being almost universally regarded as the embarrassment of the entire franchise.

ace3001
11-21-2014, 05:08 PM
as the embarrassment of the entire franchise.
But that's Unity.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:08 PM
...Who's Deborah again?

One of Connor's recruits...

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 05:09 PM
Wasn't that Christina? :rolleyes:

Yes. By which I meant to say that if their story wasn't continued in ACB, most people wouldn't even have remembered her name.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:12 PM
LOL. Yeah, right. Because there was nothing at all "forced" about one Mohawk guy being the deciding factor in every defining moment of the American Revolution. Yeah, that felt totally natural.

Honestly, you AC3 fans crack me up. I mean, listening to you folks, one would think that AC3 was the height that all other games in the series should aspire to,, rather than being almost universally regarded as the embarrassment of the entire franchise.

And one Italian guy defeating an entire dictatorial family and their army isn't forced?

Okay. :rolleyes:


Yes. By which I meant to say that if their story wasn't continued in ACB, most people wouldn't even have remembered her name.

Oh, okay.

ace3001
11-21-2014, 05:12 PM
One of Connor's recruits...

Oh, this one? :D

http://i.imgur.com/ZcEaph4.jpg

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 05:12 PM
"AC2 had the most engaging love story"

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130323033015/silenthill/es/images/thumb/1/1a/Haytham_Kenway_Facepalm_Connor_AC3.jpg/500px-Haytham_Kenway_Facepalm_Connor_AC3.jpg

Hey Prometheus! You are NO different from the AC III fanboys you are criticizing.

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 05:16 PM
Personally, I prefer Ezio's relationship with Sofia. It wasn't much, but I liked the whole "learning to love again after all this time" thing about it.

Same here. Despite its intrusion on gameplay and story, I very much enjoyed it. She was like catalyst of Ezio's retirement.


And one Italian guy defeating an entire dictatorial family and their army isn't forced?

Okay. :rolleyes:

Don't take his bait, mate. He's pulling straws.

Everyone becomes in denial when their favorite games are questioned.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 05:19 PM
I could never stand Sofia. Her voice actress was terrible and she wasn't an interesting character. Mind you, neither was Cristina, but at least she could emote.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:22 PM
I could never stand Sofia. Her voice actress was terrible and she wasn't an interesting character. Mind you, neither was Cristina, but at least she could emote.

Yeah, the Assassins always have the most boring wives.


Oh, this one? :D

http://i.imgur.com/ZcEaph4.jpg

Haha, Yes...her.





Don't take his bait, mate. He's pulling straws.

Everyone becomes in denial when their favorite games are questioned.

Yeah, I guess you're right...

Dev_Anj
11-21-2014, 05:26 PM
Hold on... since when did one sex scene at the start of the game mean a "good love story"? By that standard, almost every rom com released should have the best love stories ever. :p

ze_topazio
11-21-2014, 05:28 PM
And one Italian guy defeating an entire dictatorial family and their army isn't forced?

It's a bit different, Ezio was assassinating key leaders and commanders and people with the money and sabotaging stuff, Connor was being given command of armies and being the reasons why almost every event in the American revolution succeeded.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:32 PM
It's a bit different, Ezio was assassinating key leaders and commanders and people with the money and sabotaging stuff, Connor was being given command of armies and being the reasons why almost every event in the American revolution succeeded.

It still was a bit unrealistic really..like something out of a fairytale or something.

But I understand your reasoning behind it though.

GunnerGalactico
11-21-2014, 05:33 PM
What stood out in AC2 for me was the picturesque cities, soundtrack and the mystical stuff :p

Also, Forli is a very under-appreciated city.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 05:36 PM
So if we ask you, AC2 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers believe to be the best in the series) is one of the worst AC games, whereas AC3 (which the vast majority of players and reviewers consider to be the worst AC game) is the best.

I'm thinking we should stop asking you.

Yeah, thank God there's not such a thing as a difference of opinion. Because otherwise, if we all agreed on the same thing then what's the point of a discussion forum besides to let out your angst and have you insult anyone that disagrees with you.

:rolleyes:

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:37 PM
Forli is a very under-appreciated city.

Agreed. It's such a contrast to Florence or Venice. ^^

I liked it.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 05:37 PM
AC3...almost universally regarded as the embarrassment of the entire franchise.


But that's Unity.

No. Still not. Incredibly, a game can be as bad as Unity and still not be as embarrassingly bad as AC3. Unity, despite all its many MANY faults, still has likeable characters, an interesting setting and a story that, while just as insulting to the intelligence, is at least competently written. I'm not sure how Corey May turned out such a lame script for AC3 - all I can think of is that he phoned his contributions in and let his co-writer do most of the work.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 05:39 PM
I still cant get over the "great love story of AC II", joke of the year.

Rugterwyper32
11-21-2014, 05:41 PM
Also, Forli is a very under-appreciated city.

The main issue I have with it is how utterly useless it is. Without the DLC, there's frankly not much of a point to it at all. I still believe they could've cut at least one Venice sequence and given some proper use to Forli. It should be worth something even without the DLC. That, and it has in my opinion the weakest of the tomb missions, so I don't even feel like the content in the vanilla version makes me all that excited at all.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 05:44 PM
Youre right, i just let myself get dragged in. We have polls on or side... you know, the things that represent the community as a whole?

Law of averages doesn't apply here, sorry.

For everyone 100 people that "vote" in a poll, there are thousands of others who don't, and those votes can go any way.

Lastly, up to page 6 and no one has said that XX game is better, at all. They've merely said it has made more financially or is an improvement in other ways. That's all subjective. That's an opinion, and the point of all this. No poll can say who is right and who is wrong, because at the end of the day, it's all subjective.

ace3001
11-21-2014, 05:45 PM
No. Still not. Incredibly, a game can be as bad as Unity and still not be as embarrassingly bad as AC3. Unity, despite all its many MANY faults, still has likeable characters, an interesting setting and a story that is, while just as insulting to the intelligence, at least competently written.My favourite is AC 2, and I'm not very fond of the direction AC 3 took, but I really can't see how you're coming up with this. Unity, except for maybe the gorgeous city of Paris, is a disaster in many levels, the story being one of them. I don't know how you could say that's competently written while calling AC3 an embarrassment.
Guess I'm just going to have to chalk this one upto pure personal preference.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 05:46 PM
Yeah, thank God there's not such a thing as a difference of opinion. Because otherwise, if we all agreed on the same thing then what's the point of a discussion forum besides to let out your angst and have you insult anyone that disagrees with you.

:rolleyes:

Only in the great wonderful world of the internet is where such intolerance exists. :rolleyes:

GunnerGalactico
11-21-2014, 05:47 PM
I still cant get over the "great love story of AC II", joke of the year.

Wait, love story?? :confused:

I think I should play the game again.


The main issue I have with it is how utterly useless it is. Without the DLC, there's frankly not much of a point to it at all. I still believe they could've cut at least one Venice sequence and given some proper use to Forli. It should be worth something even without the DLC. That, and it has in my opinion the weakest of the tomb missions, so I don't even feel like the content in the vanilla version makes me all that excited at all.

I have the GOTY Edition. I just enjoyed exploring it on my own, especially when I'm searching for symbols on buildings.

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 05:48 PM
I still cant get over the "great love story of AC II", joke of the year.

My joke of the year is still ''Brotherhood was philosophical''.


My favourite is AC 2, and I'm not very fond of the direction AC 3 took, but I really can't see how you're coming up with this. Unity, except for maybe the gorgeous city of Paris, is a disaster in many levels, the story being one of them. I don't know how you could say that's competently written while calling AC3 an embarrassment.
Guess I'm just going to have to chalk this one upto pure personal preference.

He's the guy who said AC:2 had an engaging love story. Do you really value his opinion on story?

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 05:50 PM
Yeah, thank God there's not such a thing as a difference of opinion. Because otherwise, if we all agreed on the same thing then what's the point of a discussion forum besides to let out your angst and have you insult anyone that disagrees with you.

:rolleyes:

Difference of opinion is one thing. Hijacking a thread is another. And I think it's ironic that the forum's resident AC3 fanatics should be accusing anyone else of not respecting other people's opinions.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 05:54 PM
Wait, love story?? :confused:

I think I should play the game again.

.

The person that said it should be one replaying the game.

"AC II┤s engaging love story" is a one night stand followed by a persecution.... Great love story indeed.....

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 05:56 PM
For everyone 100 people that "vote" in a poll, there are thousands of others who don't, and those votes can go any way..

Yeah, clearly, if a poll shows one thing, the reality must be the opposite, because most of the population hold the most popular opinion, but they prefer not to share it.

Wait... what?

GunnerGalactico
11-21-2014, 05:59 PM
The person that said it should be one replaying the game.

"AC II┤s engaging love story" is a one night stand followed by a persecution.... Great love story indeed.....

Lol... Oh, that scene... now I remember.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 06:03 PM
My favourite is AC 2, and I'm not very fond of the direction AC 3 took, but I really can't see how you're coming up with this. Unity, except for maybe the gorgeous city of Paris, is a disaster in many levels, the story being one of them...

All I'm saying is that Unity, though horrible, doesn't match the level of pure bad that AC3 reaches. Once the dust has settled over the state of Unity upon release, and after the bugs and gameplay issues are fixed, I think Unity will end up being regarded a little more highly than AC3. But yeah, that is just my opinion and I could be mistaken. But I think what is not open to interpretation is the fact that Unity and AC3 are in a league of their own when it comes to disappointing AC titles.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 06:10 PM
Lol... Oh, that scene... now I remember.

It lasted the overwhelming time of less than 2 minutes....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCU4aKqSEic

Super engaging love story, dont you see???? haha

Farlander1991
11-21-2014, 06:10 PM
The person that said it should be one replaying the game.

"AC II┤s engaging love story" is a one night stand followed by a persecution.... Great love story indeed.....

I first thought ACII's love story would be 'Ezio + Rosa', because the game really teased that as a set-up. Heck, I would even go as far as say that it has set-it up.

And then has done absolutely nothing with it, as awesome stories do. They set up things and don't advance them, or resolve, and just throw away characters suddenly and unexpectedly. :rolleyes:

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 06:19 PM
So AC2 is a love story and ACB was Philosophical? XD

Okay, I'm done.

wvstolzing
11-21-2014, 06:23 PM
For *virtual historical tourism* and MD, AC2 was my favorite; the latter due almost exclusively to Kaczmarek, and the 'truth' video.

I'm happy to report that with respect to 'virtual tourism' ACU has already replaced AC2.
As to 'MD' ... well, everything that AC2's MD *seemed* to promise went down the drain long ago anyway.

Rugterwyper32
11-21-2014, 06:26 PM
I first thought ACII's love story would be 'Ezio + Rosa', because the game really teased that as a set-up. Heck, I would even go as far as say that it has set-it up.

And then has done absolutely nothing with it, as awesome stories do. They set up things and don't advance them, or resolve, and just throw away characters suddenly and unexpectedly. :rolleyes:

I remember when first playing AC:B, when characters from previous games started being reintroduced during Sequence 3, I started asking myself "Where's Rosa". And here I go and do both the missions for the courtesans and the mercenaries in Sequence 3, meeting Bartolomeo and Claudia, and I'm thinking "Maybe Rosa will lead the Thieves Guild now". And I'm expecting to see Rosa when I get there, but no, La Volpe. So I'm thinking "Maybe after the Caterina stuff is done she'll reappear". But no, she just disappeared from existence altogether. No mentions of her, nothing. It was building up to something but it's almost as if it was climbing stairs and they just suddenly disappeared midway and whoever was walking up there didn't notice and fell to their doom.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-21-2014, 06:27 PM
"AC II┤s engaging love story" is a one night stand followed by a persecution.... Great love story indeed.....

Clearly you didn't play through the whole story. Or you just forgot. Or you don't want to remember, because AC3's one night stand love story is so much better. :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm0zgfi9S2E

Yeah, there's no love story there. Just a one night stand followed by persecution. LOL.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 06:29 PM
Difference of opinion is one thing. Hijacking a thread is another. And I think it's ironic that the forum's resident AC3 fanatics should be accusing anyone else of not respecting other people's opinions.

The thread wasn't hijacked. Everyone who you responded to also gave reasons why 2 was considered "the difference" (as per the thread title)

Also, if you read, these same people don't find AC3 better. They find aspects of it better. They're not trying to lord their opinion over you, because it's your own.


Yeah, clearly, if a poll shows one thing, the reality must be the opposite, because most of the population hold the most popular opinion, but they prefer not to share it.

Wait... what?

I didn't say it was the opposite. Please, I implore you, learn to read what the people are saying here. I said that the "reality" was an unknown. I didn't say that any poll would go the opposite, I'm saying polls are useless because there is no X factor regarding a minimum who vote, who must vote and who didn't vote.

And that's why the law of averages does not work in scenarios like this.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 06:35 PM
Difference of opinion is one thing. Hijacking a thread is another. And I think it's ironic that the forum's resident AC3 fanatics should be accusing anyone else of not respecting other people's opinions.


Clearly you didn't play through the whole story.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm0zgfi9S2E

That was in Brotherhood and an addendum. As is, ACII had more of a love story that lasted longer between Rosa and Ezio than Ezio and Cristina.


It lasted the overwhelming time of less than 2 minutes....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCU4aKqSEic

Super engaging love story, dont you see???? haha

And it goes even faster if you "Interact" with the controls quickly. Cristina was right! ;)

Rugterwyper32
11-21-2014, 06:37 PM
Clearly you didn't play through the whole story.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm0zgfi9S2E

Yeah, there's no love story there. Just a one night stand followed by persecution. LOL.

That is including Brotherhood. AC2 as a whole just has the one night stand and the chase. And even when you include Brotherhood, which is optional and it's only 12 minutes. Plus it starts because of Ezio being a stalker. And the entire Ezio and Cristina in Venice section makes Ezio feel more like a creep. Nevermind the constant ignoring of something building up with Rosa just for it to not be addressed altogether which should've at least made the Venice section not be there. Man could I do without that. Her death didn't even make me feel all that sad, it made me think more "Man, Ezio, your life sucks". The fact it's relegated to optional missions in the sequel alone makes it feel like something very disconnected, and it's frankly not that good of a love story at all. If anything, it made me dislike AC2 Ezio more, something I would've preferred hadn't happened.

SteelCity999
11-21-2014, 06:40 PM
AC2 had a tailor made historical story that made the overall arc of the game flow pretty smooth. While Ezio's story may not have been great, the game was by far the best at fusing the historical context, modern day and First Civ stuff. It was the only game that really made you question a lot - with the truth video, the glyphs, modern day. It was also a well designed game in that it blended gameplay so well together - unlike AC3 which felt like they threw 3 different games together and forgot how to properly get them to work together (which I think was one of its biggest flaws, particularly the modern day bs sequences). The music fit well, the variety of locations was great and things made sense. Mission design has definitely improved over subsequent games and combat has been improved overall but like many point out, you can nitpick every game for something.

If you they ported it to next gen and beefed up the graphics to match ACU, they may only need to add a few differing side missions, minor tweaks, and the game would still hold up. What has been missing most in the series lately is the connection to modern day. The last few AC games have been really for no apparent purpose and leave you with a hollow experience - you have no connection to your assassin. You can insert anyone into that character and it would work. Like Ezio or not, he had a purpose and he mattered. AC2 made everything matter.

PedroAntonio2
11-21-2014, 06:42 PM
This is all based in opinion, everyone is free to believe in whatever they want to believe, if someone think ACII is the worst game, so leave them be and if someone believe AC3 is the best, it's o.k. I persnally don't have a favorite, but I miss the ambient musics a lot, the mistery and conspirancy that ACI and ACII had, ACIII was a great game, ACIV as well and I am loving Unity so far...but I miss those days.

ze_topazio
11-21-2014, 06:45 PM
I remember when first playing AC:B, when characters from previous games started being reintroduced during Sequence 3, I started asking myself "Where's Rosa". And here I go and do both the missions for the courtesans and the mercenaries in Sequence 3, meeting Bartolomeo and Claudia, and I'm thinking "Maybe Rosa will lead the Thieves Guild now". And I'm expecting to see Rosa when I get there, but no, La Volpe. So I'm thinking "Maybe after the Caterina stuff is done she'll reappear". But no, she just disappeared from existence altogether. No mentions of her, nothing. It was building up to something but it's almost as if it was climbing stairs and they just suddenly disappeared midway and whoever was walking up there didn't notice and fell to their doom.

Sadly Rosa's voice actress died after AC2 was finished, out of respect they decided to not get a new voice actress and simply left the character out of the story.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 06:50 PM
Clearly you didn't play through the whole story.

Then enlighten me. Because what happens in AC II, not Brotherhood missions, is the following:

1 Cristina???? After the pretty well done scene with Federico, Ezio goes to Cristina┤s place and sleeps with her. The following morning her father realizes Ezio is there and sends his guards after him. Ezio escapes and that is the LAST freaking time we see Cristina in AC II., The WHOLE story you are talking about is told in Assassin┤s Creed Brotherhood through some side missions, not in AC II.

2 Rosa???? Ezio saves her, then she teaches him the climb skill, they flirt but Ezio goes after Rodrigo and she is nowhere to be seen. Then her VA dies and the character is abandoned.

3 Amelia??? Ezio sleeps with her in a side mission and that is it.

4 The random prostitutes Ezio hangs out with???

So it seems you BARELY remember AC II at all...FAIL!


And by the way Prometheus, who says I am an AC III fanboy??? I┤ve argued with them A LOT of times and I like AC II more than AC III for that matter.

Rugterwyper32
11-21-2014, 06:54 PM
Sadly Rosa's voice actress died after AC2 was finished, out of respect they decided to not get a new voice actress and simply left the character out of the story.

Man that's tragic. Sad to know that was the case. Still, I do feel at least one mention would've been a nice thing to do, making it clear that they removed the character out of respect but didn't completely forget she even existed.
A belated RIP to her from my part, then.

Farlander1991
11-21-2014, 07:06 PM
Sadly Rosa's voice actress died after AC2 was finished, out of respect they decided to not get a new voice actress and simply left the character out of the story.

Honestly, I don't entirely get that logic, but maybe that's just me. When actor playing Dumbledore died or when the actor playing Oracle in the Matrix died, replacing them wasn't disrespectful. Heck, honestly, I think that her character getting a fair treatment is more respectful. And her character didn't get a fair treatment. She was simply abandoned in AC2 not once, but twice (after the beginning of the flying machine sequence, we don't hear anything about her until she gives us the manifest, for several sequences, and then she gives the manifest and disappears without a trace again!), and then abandoned in ACB.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 07:20 PM
I hate the terms "Fanboy/Fangirl".

Saying it only turns meaningful debates into hectic arguments.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 07:23 PM
With Voice Acting, it's a bit different. People become the characters they voice, and the respect for voice actors is extremely high. Also, it helps that people keep the same role over and over again.

Unfortunately, the fans seem to respect Voice Actors more than publishers, and sometimes they are simply disregarded and aren't ever given the "call back" for the next game/cartoon etc.

Michael Ironside and David Hayter are good examples of this, though Michael Ironside decided it was a good call due to his age, though I'm sure it was something he enjoyed.

That being said, I think because of Lita's death, Ubisoft made the right choice.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 07:26 PM
I hate the terms "Fanboy/Fangirl".

Saying it only make things worse...

It's just a strawman argument when someone disagrees or is upset with a franchise for whatever reason.

And it just proves that their side of the discussion holds no merit when they resort to such insults.

Rugterwyper32
11-21-2014, 07:36 PM
Michael Ironside and David Hayter are good examples of this, though Michael Ironside decided it was a good call due to his age, though I'm sure it was something he enjoyed.

Well, regarding Ironside, I've discussed it a lot on the Splinter Cell forums, and I'll quote myself from there as he's a very different case, I feel. Age had part in it, I'm sure, but I feel it's not as big as other things:


There's a big difference between both, though. From the start, there was some animosity between Ironside and the character he portrayed. This article sums it up well:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/splinter-cell-and-michael-ironside-a-rocky-ride-1.944962

Look carefully at which game this is pointing out Ironside started actually liking Sam in: Conviction. Yep, the game that many fans of the series have issues in many ways, including story-wise. The fact Sam went AGAINST 3E seems to be a big part of why he stuck around for Conviction, and I've mentioned it before but I seem to recall an interview with him mentioning he also liked the more personal element of Conviction and that drew him back, although I can't seem to find that one. One of these days. But yeah, I think that actually makes it pretty clear when you look at Blacklist. We're back to 4E and rather than being a personal story it's very impersonal and Sam's being brutal again, but also a government weapon by all means. I can just imagine how disillusioned Ironside must've been after Conviction and having Sam opposing Echelon for once. It's understandable why they did it, as clearly Conviction is not what the fanbase wanted in many respects, yet Blacklist definitely doesn't strike me as the story Ironside would've liked. And seeing how it's likely that he would've just quit after DA otherwise, I think this was bound to happen at some point.

So yeah.

In any case, I still believe Rosa should've been mentioned at the very least. I feel it was less respectful to pretty much pretend she wasn't ever there and that she was pretty much forgotten altogether.

Namikaze_17
11-21-2014, 07:42 PM
It's just a strawman argument when someone disagrees or is upset with a franchise for whatever reason.

And it just proves that their side of the discussion holds no merit when they resort to such insults.

You have a point there...

Other times it comes off very harsh when people call each other that.

"Gurr! You AC2 fanboy/fangirl ur stupid."
"Nooo. Shut up you AC3 fanboy/fangirl."

Point is, some people should take others opinions and move on.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 07:43 PM
Correction: Corey May was unaware that Rosa's voice actress died after AC2. Loomer did an interview with him before AC3's release and mentioned it and Corey looked genuinely shocked to hear of her death. ACB's story was partly written by him, as it was originally planned to be part of AC2, before they decided to split them into two games. So Rosa not being in ACB was pure coincidence.

Farlander1991
11-21-2014, 07:46 PM
People become the characters they voice

Which is why Altair was voiced by four actors in four different games, Ezio by two, Willliam by two, Clay by two, and that's just speaking of characters from AC franchise? There have been plenty of changes in voice actors in voice acted mediums for various of reasons, including death. I can't get any names off the top of my head now, but I still don't think that's really disrespectful. Though I'm not a voice actor myself and don't go around in the company of voice actors. I understand why the choice was made, but personally don't think of that as a real issue. But that's just my opinion.

Though the point is, we wouldn't be having this conversation had Ubisoft done Rosa right in the first place in AC2 :p

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 07:54 PM
Regarding Rosa, I never got the sense they were teasing a romance between her and Ezio. It felt more like puppy love on Rosa's part, but Ezio didn't show much interest in her. There's that scene where she kind of flirts with him, he tells her he's there for business and she looks disappointed. I don't think at that age Ezio was mature enough for a real relationship. The Cristina "love story" in ACB always felt forced to me.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 08:00 PM
Apparently Six knows the real reason anyway.

Ah well.

Farlander1991
11-21-2014, 08:01 PM
It felt more like puppy love on Rosa's part, but Ezio didn't show much interest in her. There's that scene where she kind of flirts with him, he tells her he's there for business and she looks disappointed.

Well, he does flirt with her more than on one occasion, though. And there's also a scene where he doesn't know what to do with his life now that his business he was so into is almost complete, and it's Rosa who opened his eyes on what difference he made for everybody AND pretty much provided him with a step to complete his lifelong goal. And they have an almost kiss moment. I mean, come on. That's definitely teasing :p

Shahkulu101
11-21-2014, 08:05 PM
It all comes down to the fact it was the first ever historical GTA.

Now we've had about 8 and we're a bit bored - but we fondly remember our first ever historical open world game. Seriously, if Unity was AC2 we'd be in awe of the game. It's stunningly gorgeous, has fantastic mission design and a fun main character. The story too, while I haven't finished it, is no worse or any more predictable than AC2. In fact I'd say the writing is far better and less cartoony.

SixKeys
11-21-2014, 08:43 PM
Well, he does flirt with her more than on one occasion, though. And there's also a scene where he doesn't know what to do with his life now that his business he was so into is almost complete, and it's Rosa who opened his eyes on what difference he made for everybody AND pretty much provided him with a step to complete his lifelong goal. And they have an almost kiss moment. I mean, come on. That's definitely teasing :p

I don't remember the almost-kiss moment. That scene where she encourages him came off to me more like a brother-sister moment.

Don't get me wrong, Rosa is probably my favorite female character in the AC games and I wouldn't mind if she and Ezio had had a fling, but their relationship just never struck me as the romantic kind. Maybe friends with benefits, at most.

Farlander1991
11-21-2014, 08:56 PM
I don't remember the almost-kiss moment. That scene where she encourages him came off to me more like a brother-sister moment.

At the 1:00 mark


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrF42VGa5jk

Maybe on its own it still could be a brother-sister moment, but the 'This better be good' to me shows that it wasn't :D


Don't get me wrong, Rosa is probably my favorite female character in the AC games and I wouldn't mind if she and Ezio had had a fling, but their relationship just never struck me as the romantic kind. Maybe friends with benefits, at most.

A lot of relationships though start the way Rosa's/Ezio's did. I.e. accidental meeting by some circumstance, and then it becomes more playful and the likes, and then as people get to know each other better it becomes more serious. I mean, that's really generalizing, but Ezio/Rosa interaction looks to me what potentially ​could transform into something bigger, though as it is now - yeah there's really not that much. As I said, doesn't help that Rosa was forgotten for two sequences only to return in a single cutscene and then never come back.

Who needs Teodora, or Bartolomeo even (the Bianca part was incredibly awesome, though)? Give us Rosa!

Btw, as far as I know, they do have some kind of romance with Rosa in the novel, but I never read it myself, so, don't know what happens there.

Megas_Doux
11-21-2014, 08:59 PM
It all comes down to the fact it was the first ever historical GTA.

Now we've had about 8 and we're a bit bored - but we fondly remember our first ever historical open world game. Seriously, if Unity was AC2 we'd be in awe of the game. It's stunningly gorgeous, has fantastic mission design and a fun main character. The story too, while I haven't finished it, is no worse or any more predictable than AC2. In fact I'd say the writing is far better and less cartoony.


This, basically.


AC II has many merits, the main of them being released in the right time!!!!!! For exmaple, my brother went back to AC II couple of weeks ago after like 2 years without playing it and he said despite the fact he enjoyed the game, it was not the uber masterpiece he remembered......

Fatal-Feit
11-21-2014, 09:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrF42VGa5jk

Off-topic, but, watching the video reminds of how well tailing was in AC:2 compared to AC:IV. In AC:2, you just had a target and you followed it. Nothing too intrusive like a collage of rooftop/ground guards, optional objectives, eavesdropping, etc. Just you, your target, and the atmosphere. However, it was AWFULLY long in AC:2. It become a 5-10 minute run of silence. AC:IV had the perfect length and interesting dialogue.

But I'm just babbling now since AC:U easily exceeds both of these titles in its tailing.

PedroAntonio2
11-21-2014, 09:22 PM
Yeah, I'm enjoying Unity so far...it's way better than ACII in terms of story.

Farlander1991
11-21-2014, 09:23 PM
Off-topic, but, watching the video reminds of how well tailing was in AC:2 compared to AC:IV. In AC:2, you just had a target and you followed it. Nothing too intrusive like a collage of rooftop/ground guards, optional objectives, eavesdropping, etc. Just you, your target, and the atmosphere. However, it was AWFULLY long in AC:2. It become a 5-10 minute run of silence. AC:IV had the perfect length and interesting dialogue.

I kinda disagree. If we take tailing in and on its own, I think AC:IV is better. Mainly thanks to the tagging system, you don't actually have to keep the target in your direct line of sight all the time which allows for greater movement flexibility than in any of the previous AC game tailing missions. And eavesdropping was just a little bit of change in the dynamic of the mission that I personally enjoyed, the area of eavesdropping was still fairly wide, and again, unlike previous games you didn't have to keep the target in sight (this is what made ACIII eavesdropping so frustrating - not only you had to be in the circle, you also had to look directly at the target).

And AC2 had a fair share of its rooftop/ground guards as well (and blockades for courtesan useage or other kind of distraction), and honestly I never enjoyed the frantic search for the LoS connection whenever the target went behind the building or into a corner or anything like that.

Optional objectives, yeah, are ****, but so they are in all other AC games with optional objectives, not just ACIV :p I personally judge optional objective apart from everything else.

MnemonicSyntax
11-21-2014, 09:24 PM
Off-topic, but, watching the video reminds of how well tailing was in AC:2 compared to AC:IV. In AC:2, you just had a target and you followed it. Nothing too intrusive like a collage of rooftop/ground guards, optional objectives, eavesdropping, etc. Just you, your target, and the atmosphere. However, it was AWFULLY long in AC:2. It become a 5-10 minute run of silence. AC:IV had the perfect length and interesting dialogue.

But I'm just babbling now since AC:U easily exceeds both of these titles in its tailing.

"Smugg-ler" "Smugg-e-ler" "Smugg-eling"

Still cracks me up to this day.

Megas_Doux
11-22-2014, 12:06 AM
The greatness of AC II relies of taking the feedback that AC I got in regards of lack of mission variety and side quests, along with its "boring" character and improve it. Then we have great "little" details like its soundtrack, plus we have to understand that in 2009, there was no fatigue at all. These days instead of the general public saying "wow an assassin┤s creed" it is more like "Another one of those???Meh!!!!!!!".


Thing is Ubi will have a HARD time emulating that success because of three reasons:

1 Its public image is destroyed almost to the point of no return, not at least in the near future.
2 Should they go with the same AC II formula, they will get criticism because "UBi is going the easy way, replicate AC II, blah blah blah".
3 However, since they have not been doing it, they get hate because "this is not AC II".


OH and I forgot its "engaging love story".....:rolleyes:



Just kidding on that last sentence hahaha.:p

Pr0metheus 1962
11-22-2014, 12:11 AM
Lest we forget:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZimXBB3gUQ

Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw: "I thought I'd be pissed off at the anti-British stuff, but really I'm just bored, which is kind of a first for the series."

Megas_Doux
11-22-2014, 12:13 AM
What does AC III have to do with this thread?

And no! As I said in the PM I sent you, AC III does not rank high to me.......

Fatal-Feit
11-22-2014, 12:24 AM
This forum was so much better before you showed up, Pr0metheus 1962. We've had hostile people who were pro AC:2 and anti AC:3 before, (like Shesheenku) but they were cool, fun to debate and discuss with. They brought up interesting points and discussions in a topic, but you've just been awfully pretentious, prejudice, and well, irritating.

Every game gets its fair share of criticisms within discussions on this forum, I assure you. Yes, even AC:2, and certainly AC:3.

If you can't accept or respect other peoples' opinions, don't use the forum. Logic, I know.

Namikaze_17
11-22-2014, 12:28 AM
This forum was so much better before you showed up, Pr0metheus 1962. We've had hostile people who were pro AC:2 and anti AC:3 before, (like Shesheenku) but they were cool, fun to debate and discuss with. They brought up interesting points and discussions in a topic, but you've just been awfully pretentious, prejudice, and well, irritating.

Every game gets its fair share of criticisms within discussions on this forum, I assure you. Yes, even AC:2, and certainly AC:3.

If you can't accept or respect other peoples' opinions, don't use the forum. Logic, I know.

No, he's nowhere near as bad as Stockton. That guy was >__>


What does AC III have to do with this thread?

Good question. IIRC, it was Prometheus that brought up AC3 and stuff. :rolleyes:

Fatal-Feit
11-22-2014, 12:37 AM
No, he's nowhere near as bad as Stockton. That guy was >__>

Stockton was trolling, probably an alt. You guys took him too seriously. I mean, come on, everyone made a jab at that thread. :p


Good question. IIRC, it was Prometheus that brought up AC3 and stuff. :rolleyes:

Actually, I did, but it was in context. Used as an example.

He turned it into a debate for whatever reason.

Namikaze_17
11-22-2014, 12:48 AM
Stockton was trolling, probably an alt. You guys took him too seriously. I mean, come on, everyone made a jab at that thread. :p

Shh...we don't speak of that thread.

Dark ages they were. :rolleyes:

But you are right though. :p


Actually, I did, but it was in context. Used as an example.

He turned it into a debate for whatever reason.

Ah, Okay.

D.I.D.
11-22-2014, 12:51 AM
Lest we forget:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZimXBB3gUQ

Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw: "I thought I'd be pissed off at the anti-British stuff, but really I'm just bored, which is kind of a first for the series."

"JE SUIS NAPOLEON"

Yahtztradamus.

Namikaze_17
11-22-2014, 12:56 AM
Most ignorant vid I've seen yet...

However I'm not surprised.

Megas_Doux
11-22-2014, 12:58 AM
Now I disagree with you guys! As Voltaire, more or less, said:

"I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

D.I.D.
11-22-2014, 01:02 AM
Most ignorant vid I've seen yet...

However I'm not surprised.

"Ignorant" would suggest Croshaw is either stupid or poorly informed, and he's neither. He knows these games inside out, and sometimes he likes them, but AC3 is one of the games that minimised player input or agency to such an extent that I often felt like it didn't care if I was there or not.

Namikaze_17
11-22-2014, 01:04 AM
Now I disagree with you guys! As Voltaire, more or less, said:

"I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Who have you defended? :rolleyes:

Namikaze_17
11-22-2014, 01:06 AM
"Ignorant" would suggest Croshaw is either stupid or poorly informed, and he's neither. He knows these games inside out, and sometimes he likes them, but AC3 is one of the games that minimised player input or agency to such an extent that I often felt like it didn't care if I was there or not.

It must be his voice...I dunno.

I'm not serious in anything I'm saying either.

wvstolzing
11-22-2014, 01:17 AM
Yeah, Yahtzee is hardly uninformed about AC; he even likes the series so some extent, I think.

Which reminds me ... a big shame that Jim Sterling lost his job.

ace3001
11-22-2014, 02:29 AM
Yeah, I'm enjoying Unity so far...it's way better than ACII in terms of story.

You're just like that guy who said Unity's story is better than AC III's. Unity's story starts off very much like AC II's and ends up as an incomplete mess.

SixKeys
11-22-2014, 03:00 AM
Not sure why Yahtzee's review was brought up in the first place. Is he some kind of authority on all things AC now? Pr0metheus' arguments seem to rely almost exclusively on how professional critics review AC games and not actual refutations to valid arguments.

But since critic opinions are now the end-all, be-all, here's the Destructoid review that rated AC2 a score of 4.5/10:

http://www.destructoid.com/review-assassin-s-creed-2-155807.phtml

"Score (http://www.destructoid.com/the-official-destructoid-review-guide-ver-2-0-103621.phtml): 4.5 -- Below Average (4s have some high points, but they soon give way to glaring faults. Not the worst games, but are difficult to recommend.)"

It must be true, a professional game critic said so!

crusader_prophet
11-22-2014, 04:50 AM
I think the first AC was the one that stood out most to me or may it was just Altair. He just felt like a natural assassin, no motivation, no drama, just killed things because that was his job.

ace3001
11-22-2014, 05:27 AM
I think the first AC was the one that stood out most to me or may it was just Altair. He just felt like a natural assassin, no motivation, no drama, just killed things because that was his job.

You make Altair sound like some brainless puppet, which is nothing like what Altair really was.

Namikaze_17
11-22-2014, 05:32 AM
I think the first AC was the one that stood out most to me or may it was just Altair. He just felt like a natural assassin, no motivation, no drama, just killed things because that was his job.

This.

Though eventually he too had a motivation and such.

I also think AC4 stands out as well.

crusader_prophet
11-22-2014, 05:50 AM
You make Altair sound like some brainless puppet, which is nothing like what Altair really was.

Sorry, that was not my intention at all. Because Altair is my favorite video game character and I think he is a legend. I guess I should have put more words in my post. It's just that his story started without having to establish his reason of being an assassin. He was just an Assassin, that's it unlike in later games, they have been trying hard to establish why the protagonist becomes an assassin which sometimes becomes cliche. Like he had said once "it's the only life he has ever known" when Al-Mulaim asks him if he regrets anything or wishes things were different.

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2014, 07:02 AM
This forum was so much better before you showed up, Pr0metheus 1962. We've had hostile people who were pro AC:2 and anti AC:3 before, (like Shesheenku) but they were cool, fun to debate and discuss with. They brought up interesting points and discussions in a topic, but you've just been awfully pretentious, prejudice, and well, irritating.

Every game gets its fair share of criticisms within discussions on this forum, I assure you. Yes, even AC:2, and certainly AC:3.

If you can't accept or respect other peoples' opinions, don't use the forum. Logic, I know.

You mean they were open minded?

Reminds me of AssassinHMS too, but not near as bad as Prometheus. Damn.

Dev_Anj
11-23-2014, 03:13 AM
Someone should show this thread to Assassin_M. He'd really like it!

Namikaze_17
11-23-2014, 03:30 AM
Someone should show this thread to Assassin_M. He'd really like it!

I'm surprised he hasn't found this yet. :rolleyes:

xaventh
11-23-2014, 04:25 AM
Simple math really,

Ancient Aliens + The da Vinci's Code = AC2.

Add in revenge, some assassins, Sci Fi elements and a playboy....i mean come on. It was all over the place and it worked.

Assassin_M
11-23-2014, 06:10 PM
Ohohohohoh so many AC II fanboys, this is like heaven.

The only special thing in AC II for me was how spectacularly it failed in characterization, story and modern day. I guess it also had nice cities and great music.

And no, Pr0m, if that's how facts were measured (number of people who say things), Christianity would be an indisputable fact. (God, you sound so much like stock. I guess this is an AC II fanboy template)

I-Like-Pie45
11-23-2014, 06:12 PM
This is like an all-you-can-eat buffet, isn't it, M?

Assassin_M
11-23-2014, 06:20 PM
This is like an all-you-can-eat buffet, isn't it, M?
Indeed. We have the "Waaaa, waaa, my opinion is majority" over here and "Waaa, waaaaaaa, you're just AC III fanboys" over there.
I'm like a kid waiting on Santa.