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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:46 PM
Hi all,
I am not a real life pilot (I have only been in a plane threee-four times), so maybe i'm going to write stupid considerations; but this intrigues me from so long far (correct?).
The question: it seems very hard (to me) that a real WWII pilot could do (repeatedly) all those aerobatics we usually do in the game, without getting his stomach out from his ears.
This, if true (i really don't know) would affect the simulation this way: even if a plane was technically capable of very tight turns, rolls, etc. actually it didn't do them (at least again and again) because of pilot limit; so would be much easier, compared to simulation, to shot down slow, very manoevrable planes with faster, less handly planes (try to shot down that polish a/c or a i15 with a Bf109 which, i suppose was superior).
Briefly: if this aspect is important, it influences fights as much as a correct FM.
Any consideration?

Hope this long msg is clear enough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:46 PM
Hi all,
I am not a real life pilot (I have only been in a plane threee-four times), so maybe i'm going to write stupid considerations; but this intrigues me from so long far (correct?).
The question: it seems very hard (to me) that a real WWII pilot could do (repeatedly) all those aerobatics we usually do in the game, without getting his stomach out from his ears.
This, if true (i really don't know) would affect the simulation this way: even if a plane was technically capable of very tight turns, rolls, etc. actually it didn't do them (at least again and again) because of pilot limit; so would be much easier, compared to simulation, to shot down slow, very manoevrable planes with faster, less handly planes (try to shot down that polish a/c or a i15 with a Bf109 which, i suppose was superior).
Briefly: if this aspect is important, it influences fights as much as a correct FM.
Any consideration?

Hope this long msg is clear enough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:00 PM
Allright. The pilot's endurace respectively fatigue was a very big factor. In real plane you just can't turn like hell like in FB. Maybe 30sec - 3min max hard turn close to the limit- that's it. Most guncams show other planes not doing such sharp manoeuvers, they just do a wide turn, scissors etc, but not manoeuvers as hard as done in FB.

IMHO a good feature would be when the blackout comes earlier and earlier when turning much. Means after cruising the pilot blacks out at 7g for example. But after 1 minute turning @3-4g the blackout will come @5g then and so on. This would be pilot's endurance.

That's also why bad turn rate wasn't considered much as a disadvantage. Climb, speed, accelleration and armament were much more important. That's why FWs for example were very good fighters. In FB they get killed by either wrong flight style (TnB) or others' lucky shots + hard manoeuvers.


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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:52 PM
Hmmm never thought of it like that.They should model that.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:16 AM
since quick full use of elevator and alierons doesnt loose thier effectiveness like real wwii aircraft along with no overstressing of of the fuselage, player movement will always be very arcadish. Another thing is the different blackout levels each plane has at the same speed in the same turn, there needs to be a G's meter and pilots get effected from a certain ammount of G's unlike how the game is now that each aircraft has a different blackout setting

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:00 AM
Thats an excellent idea Willey, I think you've hit the nail on the head. That would be an excellent way to model pilot fatigue, just as Roseanrico brought up. It was (is) a very important aspect of air combat that has really never been modeled that I know of. It would increase the realism of simulated dogfights that much more. Hopefully AI would also be affected of course (though it seems in Il-2 their may be a similar 'feature', not sure exactly how it works, but the effect is similar).

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 06:45 AM
No two pilots ever have the same limits, even those change from day to day. The modeling right now is excellent. Anything more and it's an annoyance, the AI can't all be modeled to have it, would bring the game performance too far down. Once you pulled a few turns and tired out, your helpless and going to get slaughtered by them every time.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:39 PM
They could implement that you in the pilot-profile enter your real-life height, weight and fitness and then let the game calculate your stamina/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
That would for sure give people reason to exercise more/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Or feel really bad with themselves for cheating/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 02:13 PM
I like this idea, but it should be an option.

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 03:10 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- since quick full use of elevator and alierons doesnt
- loose thier effectiveness like real wwii aircraft
- along with no overstressing of of the fuselage,
- player movement will always be very arcadish.
- Another thing is the different blackout levels each
- plane has at the same speed in the same turn, there
- needs to be a G's meter and pilots get effected from
- a certain ammount of G's unlike how the game is now
- that each aircraft has a different blackout setting
-


seams that way too me as well Lead...

another thing I was thinking, is I noticed all these guys trying to evade gunfire by wildley cranking there stick in all manner of directions... I see more & more Flyers doing this Um... Manuver ???

I realy think that real Pilots could not do this in real life & would soon black out or Die from the extreams of shoving the stick in all manner of directions not sure if that can be addressed but its just something I seen that seems ignorant


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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 03:27 PM
hi all,
if the pilot's fatigue is a true fact, I think that Willey idea is quite reasonable and maybe simple to develop; linked to airframe stress modeling, they should give so much realism to the simulation i guess.
No other sim i played (Warbirds, AH, Fighter Squadron, CFS1&2, Red Baron) has never performed it.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 10:45 PM
Willey's idea is simply brillient!

And thanks for bringing the subject up rosaenrico. S!


Realism Rules!
6BL-idonno

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 10:48 PM
Is this thread serious? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 11:03 PM
I forsee stat-building etc. You must allocate Johnny-Pilot so many hours of exercise or else he pukes all over the dials and has a bad time closing the canopy.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 11:06 PM
Yeah for instance Walther Oesau was known in the luftwaffe as "the toughest fighter pilot"because he was able to Dogfight (Turning fight) with his opponents (Wich usualy had better turning aircraft!) untill they could not fight anymore because of fatigue Oesau with his strong physics would make advantage of that point.A real 'muscle fighter' in other words!
While the top luftwaffe fighterpilot (and top scoring fighterpilot in history) Erich Hartmann avoided Dogfights and only attacked when in a advantage possition, even picking out the weak opponents from the 'herd'was a examplery 'Brains fighter'
It is also of interest to hear from many LW veterans that they had no problems outturning their usual Russian oponents even dough they flew better turning aircraft, in reality the skill and spirit of the pilot is still the most important factor, very diffrent from a 'game'where there is no fear of diyng i would say!
About the acrobatics have you ever seen a acrobatics championship?
Those guys are doing there best to be the best in their skill, WWII pilots did theirs to stay alive!

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 11:07 PM
Btw it is known that several Aces sufferd from airsickness!

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 11:38 PM
NeroMoura wrote:
"Is this thread serious?"

Why wouldn't it be serious?

In fact I would take it even further and suggest that the planes should become less responsive as a prolonged fight drags on. It's a physically demanding thing to throw an airplane around the sky in a dog fight.

I read a post in another forum about a Japanese ace who was jumped by a number of US planes and had to maneuver for his life, after a few minutes he got to the point where he could hardly move his arms. Years ago I got to fly a USAF simulator of the A-37 (a small ground attack jet with the two pilots sitting side by side). The Air Force pilot sitting next to me told me to do a roll so I pushed the stick as far to the left as my little teenage arms could push it. The simulated air pressure on the control surfaces kept me from giving it full deflection so the plane was rolling very slowly. He kept saying push it harder, but I might as well have been pushing against a brick wall. It simply would not go any further. Then the pilot reached to his right across me and brought his hand back to the left, slamming the stick in front of him the rest of the way over, and the plane (as indicated on the artificial horizon) rolled quickly over.

In most accounts I've read of WWII air combat, fights seldom lasted long enough for pilot fatigue to become much of a factor, and in many IL2 encounters the same may hold true, but it certainly would add another touch of realism if a pilot couldn't apply full stick deflection or withstand black-out G's for forever.

Realism Rules!
6BL-idonno

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:14 AM
-
- another thing I was thinking, is I noticed all these
- guys trying to evade gunfire by wildley cranking
- there stick in all manner of directions... I see
- more & more Flyers doing this Um... Manuver ???
-
- I realy think that real Pilots could not do this in
- real life & would soon black out or Die from the
- extreams of shoving the stick in all manner of
- directions not sure if that can be addressed but its
- just something I seen that seems ignorant
-
-
-
Your right, they held those sticks nice and still waiting for the bullets to ripp into them. Only sporting and polite.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:39 AM
IIRC European Air War seemed to have a somewhat dynamic blackout system - after the first blackout it required less violent manoeuvering to cause another. I remember suffering from this in a late mark Spitfire, which was otherwise completely superior to my opponents craft. Does anyone else remember if this was the case with EAW?

Cheers

Athos

p.s. IL2 already has a fixed value for the pilots physical strength (max force on stick) - I believe it wouldn't be unreasonable to assign a standard G tolerance as well.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 07:57 PM
Nice idea, I like the sound of it *BUMP* /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 01:42 PM
Hear, hear!!!

I also think that improving G-tolerance could be modeled. This happens in real life. When you are exposed to high G-forces repeadetly, your tolerance goes up. It could be relative to your missions flown or some other parameter like that.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:11 PM
This fatique effect is modelled in Falcon4.0 and works very good. It takes some minutes after a 9 G turn till your pilot got his stamina back to 100%. When you start to make sharp turns without making the necessary pauses, you will suffer blackouts at 7, 6 or 5 G.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:17 PM
Lamers will just trim to beat it anyway. But its a nice thought. Doubt it will happen though.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:51 PM
A really good idea.

I think something must be doned to correct "aracadish" movements that more and more online players use, they just yank that stick like hell, there is no way real pilot could do em and if even could they woulndt.

My opinion strictly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:51 PM
Damn, they found another way to cripple the VVS planes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Actually, a weight scale plugged into USB port to measure simmer weight should be required, as well as a height measurement device. Alternatively, results of a physical exam must be sent to ubi before releace of the CD, or the two CDs. No pass physical, for you, no Patch.

Possibly, some method of determining simmer sex, so each sex can fly with their advantages and disadvantages. Women simmers have more G Tolerance and G Compassion, male simmers's plane automatically rolls inverted and pilot blacks out after one press of the trigger.

Don't laugh at these ideas, they could happen. Oleg once stated that FB would require *both* CDs in the computer at once for FB to start up, requiring simmers to have two (2) CD players.

Alas, Oleg's humour is way above the normal ubi poster, and he gets ulcer instead.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:28 PM
Another problem if sims is that they can't control the stick input you make. In RL, slamming the stick up and down as we like to do it is not very comfy or healthy in a plane, esp. in a non FbW one. You can kick around the plane in a way, no pilot would do that in real life. In every sim, people load and unload their plane within a matter of a split second which would be very bad for your stomach in a real plane. You can't feel the Gs and that's the problem. Every sim lets you move the virtual stick to its extremes without compensating such brutal and unrealistic inputs. The virtual stick should move independent from the joystick and in a realistic manner. Pilots are always very gently on the stick.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:22 PM
Here is an interesting article about G-Tolerance, Blackout, G-LOC, etc..

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dxw/Articles/g-loc.html

G- TOLERANCE

Centrifuge and Flying studies have identified man's tolerance to +Gz with reasonable accuracy. Figure 1 is a +Gz v. Time graph demonstrating the tolerance to +Gz of relaxed subjects not using any G-protection device or manoeuvre.

The area above and to the right of the solid black curve represents the +Gz and Time at which unconsciousness (on average) occurs. The area between this curve and the grey curve is the region of visual disturbances (greyout and blackout) without loss of consciousness. Below and to the left of the grey curve is the +Gz/Time zone where no visual symptoms or G-LOC occur in the average, unprotected person.

The line 'C' on figure 1 represents a gradual onset of +Gz at a rate of around 0.5G per second and shows that visual symptoms are likely after about 5 seconds and Loss of Consciousness about 1 second later at +4Gz. Line D shows a slower rate of +Gz onset, in this case visual symptoms will occur after 16 seconds (+4Gz) and G-LOC will intervene after 22 seconds when the acceleration will be +5Gz. Rapid onset of sustained +Gz, as shown in line B will result in G-LOC after about 4 seconds without any warning visual symptoms. However, very rapid onset +Gz that is not sustained at a high level, line A, may well result in no visual disturbances or G-LOC. This last feature is what saves many of our unlimited aerobatic pilots from suffering G-LOC more often, although they pull substantial G they do so for only very short periods

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dxw/Articles/graphics/g-loc1.gif


Although various studies provide slightly different figures for G-LOC most show that it tends to occur at around +4.5Gz in the unprotected individual, but may occur at anywhere between +2Gz and +6.5Gz. Aircrew have suffered G-LOC at +2Gz, which is the G-loading during a steep, balanced, 60 degree angle of bank, turn. It is also important to note that although G-LOC is often preceded by visual symptoms this is not always the case.

The duration of a period of G-LOC also varies, after the G returns to +1 Gz, but usually the period of complete incapacitation lasts around 15 seconds and is followed by another 15, or so, seconds of relative incapacitation. Periods of up to 3 minutes incapacitation have been observed. "

============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:40 PM
Exactly John Banks..

In all records I have seen the pilots allways use their plane with care and with smooth stick movement.

I in some point of IL2 asked about this and didint get too many replies. It is a issue for sure since now that we have (ok with the patch hopefully we have) all the planes working to their factory datas we still need the human side in it.

There was a saying.. Its the Man not the Machine. Well now we only have machine and basicly the machine is playing much greater role than in reality.. A bad pilot could easily lose a real fight to a better pilot in inferior plane.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 09:50 PM
About Lexx said concerning player's body,
your point of view arises this question: just now, what kind of body measurements has the pilot(s) modelled in the game?
I think that modelling (if possible) fatigue on the basis of a standard body would be perfectly reasonable.

By the way, standard is present for example each time you fly a certain a/c: exactly the same reliability than before, exactly the same engine power, etc.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:06 AM
Anybody remember Falcon3.0? The more G's you pull in that sim the less time it takes you to black out, suddenly laying on G's makes you black out realy fast, and as you fight your G-tolerance drops. Wounds make blackout/redout come faster, etc.

It would be nice to be able to put in our height, i'm 6'6" so i'd have a differnt view from the canopy. Or have to fly with it open [i'm told i'm about 5 inches too tall to fit into a 109]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:46 AM
Considering the quality of current redout and blackout effects in _all_ sims, and considering that the AI apparently don't even suffer from these in FB, I'd say, don't induce assumed pilot's limitations to be calculated by the computer or determined by the programmers, it'll only be an annoyance.

Also, when you look at aerobatics pilots, they do a lot more than we do in FB. At least when you try and fly realistically.

Plus, everybody gets seasick or dizzy at different thresholds. I can stand at the bow of a stomping and rolling ship forever, when my wife on the same ship is puking her guts out after 5 minutes while sitting right in the middle of the ship. I didn't get sick in an airplane doing moderate aerobatics either a few years ago, nor in small sailboats in a mediterranean storm.

I'd feel annoyed being subjected to dizziness/nausea-limitations adjusted to fit those of more susceptible players than myself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:29 PM
The G tolerance does vary between aircraft. E g, the Fw190 helped its pilots cope with g loads through the seating position with the legs raised, compared to most other aircraft.

As for G tolerance decreasing with prolonged exposure, Oak Groove put that solidly to rest I think. Thank you for that!

Less glamorous effects are quite noticeable too. Even pulling a moderate 2Gs for a prolonged while keeping a lookout (tight strong thermals and lots of aircraft!) will make finding a place to rest your head a high priority task rapidly! Imagine dogfighting... even with "only" 3-5 Gs you'd feel it very soon. That parachute harness buckle which is in exactly the wrong spot (one always is!) becomes quite distracting too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

You are not likely to throw around the controls wildly in a real aircraft. First off, it will kill you in combat due to bleeding lots of airspeed for little effect. Perhaps wobble around a bit, making your trajectory harder to estimate but not what you can see online in various sims at times.
Second, it will kill you due to putting all kinds of stress on the airframe which it was not designed to handle. Remember AA587, the one which fell down in NYC? The control inputs were all within limits but the sequence of inputs was not. Swinging into a slip to one side after a pronounced slip to the other they applied rudder opposite to the direction of the yaw. Fin load from the yawing movement, sideslip and deflected rudder added up and sheared the fin off. If you combine loads, e g full aileron deflection in a sideslip or pulling to the maximum load limit with a high roll rate, you are very likely to exceed the design parameters which assume some sensibility on the part of the pilot. A good piece of advice is never to use full control throw in more than one axis.
Third, it would be very, very unpleasant!!!

VOL_Jon,
you typically have visual aids in the cabin helping you adjust the seat so that the eye position will be the same for all pilots. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif 6'6" might be a problem though - most people like to have kneecaps even after ejecting if it comes to that!

Cheers,
Fred



No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:47 PM
Flydutch wrote:
- It is also of interest to hear from many LW veterans
- that they had no problems outturning their usual
- Russian oponents even dough they flew better turning
- aircraft...

Hi Flydutch!

That statement just gave me a chuckle! I suppose that the reason there are many LW veterans who can claim this , is because the luftwaffe flyers who tried and could not out-turn their opponents are not around anymore./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I think this idea of this thread is a great one.I am for it.


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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:05 AM
effte wrote:
- VOL_Jon,
- you typically have visual aids in the cabin helping
- you adjust the seat so that the eye position will be
- the same for all pilots. 6'6" might be a problem though
- - most people like to have kneecaps even after
- ejecting if it comes to that!
-
- Cheers,
- Fred

Yhea, you see even with the seat in the lowest position i'm about 4 inches too tall to fit into a 109!!! If I ever got a chance to fly one i'd need a special seat and custom rudder pedals!

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:24 AM
Nice G chart. From the text about 2G's causing crew to G-Loc I can only reason that the chart applies to pilots in modern G-suits, something not around in WWII. I only know that the US had a primitive version.

And please NOT a stupid character-development-RPG! Fighter pilots start out in or near top condition and tend to be young. A 24 year old is considered to be an 'Old Man'. When they are in steady combat day after day, the pilots actually lose a lot of weight and are weaker as many accounts will tell. So any business of starting out weak and 'building you stats' is an anti-historic joke!

Pilots start out with training and medical checks. If you don't pass then someone more fit will fly that plane, maybe you fly something tamer. If you tend to heave your meals when practicing BCM's and ACM's then again, someone else will do the job. Ralphing into an oxygen mask at high alt is a way to die, period.

Pilot endurance in the sim would be a Very Good Thing, but the AI must have it too! A fine thing to wear down the AI or have it wear you down because you jerked around too much too quickly! It would add a dimension of realism to the sim although we would need to hear the pilot breathing (how hard, a visceral indicator... maybe heart thudding in your head and chest when the strain is really much? if you've ever pushed really hard, you know... maybe those purple spots as well?) and see a readout of strength/endurance for that to be effective since we can't feel the tiredness or the G's.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 08:28 PM
effte wrote:

-
- As for G tolerance decreasing with prolonged
- exposure, Oak Groove put that solidly to rest I
- think. Thank you for that!
-


Oh really, is that why it's standard saftey procedure in modern air forces to do warm up G pulls? Wonder why they would do something so silly as to decrease their tolerance. LoL

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 08:33 PM
The chart applies to human centrifuge tests of relaxed subjects not using a G-suit or manoeuvre, in other words the test persons didn´t use any form of special respiration cycle (pressure breathing), gear, or other means to ****** a blackout or subsequent G-Loc. But essentially it´s right, during WW2 G-suits were more or less experimental, and it´s doubtfull if aircrews received proper respiration training as exercised today, or had enough spare time or the urge to systematically build up their anaerobic fitness. So the stats provided on the chart could be applied with just seat position, health (times wounded) and experience being factors. Regarding medical checks and general selection of aircrews, in the course of the war there was often no choice but to correct requirements downwards, many people were put into cockpits that shouldn´t have been there in the first case, entirely different situation than today with the selection of fighter pilots.

Excerpt:
"An airman's tolerance to G seems to be improved if he breathes 100% oxygen, if he is 'Pressure Breathing' and if he is anaerobically fit. While a reasonable level of aerobic fitness is desirable for effective aircrew performance there is some evidence that those people who are extremely fit, with a low resting pulse, may actually have a slightly reduced G-tolerance."

"Aircraft seat position, aircrew general health, aircrew experience and currency were also identified as factors influencing the ability to tolerate G. During this period G-LOC was becoming increasingly recognized as a possible cause for a number of fatal aircraft crashes."


============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:15 PM
Well the chart showed the 2G level completely in the No Effects region, IIRC, and yet the text states that aircrew sometimes (how often?) GLOC'd at 2G's. Perhaps these were standing gunners?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:54 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You can GLOC at 2 Gs, it's all a matter of how long you pull these Gs.If you pull a constant G load, no matter how "low" it might be, it will knock you out sooner or later.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 12:26 AM
Gee, wonder how the astronauts remain alive, I mean pulling 26+ G for around 10 minutes, but can't be done I suppose./i/smilies/16x16_robot-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 12:47 AM
26G? LoL, forget it. Astronauts have to sustain 2 G's for 4 or 5 minutes. You wouldn't survive a G load of 26 wich is putting pressure right onto your torax. You wouldn't be able to breath.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:14 AM
You'd better check up on the old moonshots, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions were shot out figured for 9G pilot loads, but the actual rocket hit breif periods of 26+ loads. Sure the shuttle is set for 3G loads, but remember school teachers and old guys go up in those./i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:24 AM
You can bet your monthly income that no Astronaut had/has to sustain 26G during take-off or normal flight. Not even 9G. I don't know what the G load in the Apollo was (maybe 3G but not more) but in the Shuttle, you have 2 G during take-off.

They also never had to sustain 9G while flying around the moon. They didn't flew like the crew in "Amagedon" with full engine thrust and inverted in a low orbit around the Moon. Even the best pilots are only able to sustain 9 Gs for maybe 26-30 seconds in a Jet and that is a real pain. In a jet you can unload by releasing the stick. That's not that easy in space.

During one Gemini mission, the crew had to dock with the future space lab. Something went wrong and they started to spin violently in a low earth orbit. They were in a fast snap roll (CCW) and never got a black out (although it was likely). I think that was the only situation, where US Astronauts got into a situation where G forces were a real danger but there hasn't been a similar situation ever since.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:20 AM
I've understood that people have survived 25G's, but as the shock of hitting the ground flat from a fall. The time at 25G's was practically instantaneous, not sustained at all!

Very short high G forces, yah sure... in a couch and suit to fit. What must it have been like when the capsule hit the water with that big flat bottom? Or maybe during some of the turbulence of re-entry? Even the shuttle goes through some hard G's in the turns and slips while burning off E on the pre-approach.

And yeah, no super-G's on takeoff. The rocket is full of fuel then. Just watch the thing take off, it's not accelerating at any 9 G's.

Sheppard in the Mercury:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pressed by 6 g at two minutes after launch, Shepard still was able to report "all systems go." The Redstone's engine shut down on schedule at 142 seconds, having accelerated the astronaut to a velocity of 5,134 miles per hour, close to the nominal speed. After engine cutoff, Shepard heard the tower-jettison rocket fire and turned his head to peer out the port, hoping that he might see the smoke from the pyrotechnics. There was no smoke, but the green tower-jettison light on his panel assured him that the pylon was gone. Shepard strained in his couch under an acceleration that hit a peak g load of 6.3. Outside the capsule the shingle temperature reached 220 degrees F, but inside the cabin the temperature was only 91 degrees. The astronaut was hardly perspiring in his pressure suit at 75 degrees.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Also:
-----------------------------------------------------------
On May 5, 1961, Alan Shepard climbed aboard his Mercury spacecraft, called Freedom 7. His mission was to fly into outer space and return safely in a sub-orbital flight that would last about 15 minutes. There were numerous delays in the countdown, and Shepard was on the pad for hours. Finally, at 9:43 a.m., Alan Shepard was launched into outer space. Shepard reached an altitude of 116 miles (187 km) and landed 303 mi (488 km) down-range from Cape Canaveral, where he was recovered by the aircraft carrier Lake Champlain. He reached a peak velocity of 5,134 miles per hour (8,260 kph) and experienced a force as high as 11 Gs (11 times the acceleration due to gravity) upon re-entry.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Neal

adlabs6
08-03-2003, 06:22 AM
Good idea here, the original post I mean.

I've often wondered what a beating I'd take from slapping a plane around like we do in FB. I've also wondered how long a 109 (or any plane) could remain in combat service if it was subjected to repeated and high level G forces from long throw control input on a daily basis.

I believe it was Willey who stated that most footage from gun cams shows a very different scene. In a way, this is part of my liking offline campaigns. The AI doesn't seem to press the plane's limits as hard as a flier online will. There seems to be less 'breathing room' in an human duel, maybe just a bit too little breathing room to be perfectly 'real' about it.

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 12:30 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:

- Women simmers have more G Tolerance
- and G Compassion, male simmers's plane automatically
- rolls inverted and pilot blacks out after one press
- of the trigger.

You forgot to add that women simmers have another advantage, they have the G-SPOT!!!!

Mods:

Not being sexist, just simple biology here!

GreyBeast_P39

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 12:55 PM
LOL, good point /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif although the exsistence of the G spot has not been proved yet. Some say that every woman has one and some say they don't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 08:31 AM
BfHeFwMe wrote:
-- effte wrote:
-- As for G tolerance decreasing with prolonged
-- exposure, Oak Groove put that solidly to rest I
-- think. Thank you for that!
-
- Oh really, is that why it's standard saftey
- procedure in modern air forces to do warm up G
- pulls? Wonder why they would do something so silly
- as to decrease their tolerance. LoL

May I suggest Interpretation of Written English 101? You seem to have some problems in that area.

Now go over it all again slowly.

The answer is that they do warm up G pulls to get their cardio-vascular system up to speed. If you have a look at the chart Oak Groove posted, you won't even have to take that course to see it for yourself. Edit: Another major reason is to verify the operation of the anti-G system. Bad things can happen if you load on the Gs right away and find out your suit won't fill.

Good luck with your training!Q

Cheers,
Fred

No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

Message Edited on 08/04/0307:36AM by effte

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 11:45 PM
I agree. It would really spice up the game if there would be a good model for pilot fatigue. Also I wish that severe manouvers with your plane would cause different problems with the plane. F.Ex. Guns being jammed. It was a common problem that guns and cannons wouldn't work after a small time of combat. This was caused by hard turns and dives witch rattled the ammobelts till they broke or got twisted.

Also many times hard TnB fights resulted in severe problems later on after the fight. F.Ex. Landing Gears didn't work correctly since the hydraulics (or something, I'm not a mechanic) were clogged up...

Also parts and bits could fall of, twist and damage the plane. I remember seeing reports form WW2 pilots that bolts were shooting of their wings and airframes were twisted badly after a long and hard TnB fight.

IF they could model all this IN A GOOD AND BALANCED way this could seriously create more interesting Dogfights.

I have taken part in a DF (Full Real) where 1 Rata was fighting 5 Bf-109 (G2-G6) and got away by constantly making sharp hard turns from side to side...
This continued for about 20(!!!!) minutes till all 109's were either out of ammo or out of fuel.
Got to admit that the Rata pilots was very skilled but still...
It really made me angry and in the end, sad. Because that kind of things make me NOT WANTING TO FLY ANYMORE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I hope Oleg reads this and at least would give us an answer if he will/wont model this in later patches...

I also understand that it would be hard to model so it would be CORRECT, EFFECTIVE but same time BALANCED.
So I wont cry or slit my wrists if this wont happen. After all, in those days, pilots had to cope with the planes as they were. They always hoped their planes to have more this and better that, but in the end, they had to fight with the planes they got.

S! To all... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- LeLv30_Finwolf, CO of LeLv30.

www.LeLv30.Net (http://www.LeLv30.Net)