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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 12:34 PM
Hey can we have a switch to get rid of the massive gun flashes, the do my head in.Also can we have smoke from chimney stacks to make the landscape more alive. After all u are doing it with the down planes. They are great the smoke etc butit needs more variation like real smoke dos not going striaght in a perfect line up.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 12:34 PM
Hey can we have a switch to get rid of the massive gun flashes, the do my head in.Also can we have smoke from chimney stacks to make the landscape more alive. After all u are doing it with the down planes. They are great the smoke etc butit needs more variation like real smoke dos not going striaght in a perfect line up.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:06 PM
they are thier cos real gun flashes were huge

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:53 PM
NO gun flashes are not seen in the day time. And only at night they are seen and they arent tha t big but they sure seem it when its dark and you fire.

And as far as turning them down nope cant do it



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:56 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
- NO gun flashes are not seen in the day time. And
- only at night they are seen and they arent tha t big
- but they sure seem it when its dark and you fire.
-
- And as far as turning them down nope cant do it

Hollywood always portrays rather large gun flashes - That is the only evidence I'VE seen. Have you seen anything to contradict the game then?

S! Simon.
<center>


<font color="#000000">It's my attitude not my aptitude that determines my altitude.</font>
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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 02:01 PM
Extreme_One wrote:
-
- Hollywood always portrays rather large gun flashes -
- That is the only evidence I'VE seen. Have you
- seen anything to contradict the game then?
-
Yes i have seen enough gun flashes to contradict hollywood. And i hope you dont beleive everything holloywood says /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You can even try it at home your self get out you rifle and in the day time fire it. now go out at night and fire it



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 02:07 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
-
-
- Extreme_One wrote:
--
-- Hollywood always portrays rather large gun flashes -
-- That is the only evidence I'VE seen. Have you
-- seen anything to contradict the game then?
--
- Yes i have seen enough gun flashes to contradict
- hollywood. And i hope you dont beleive everything
- holloywood says /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- You can even try it at home your self get out you
- rifle and in the day time fire it. now go out at
- night and fire it

You're right I don't believe everything Hollywood throws at us./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I guess you must be in the US or maybe Canada?
I'm in the UK so can't access a rifle too easily. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S! Simon.
<center>


<font color="#000000">It's my attitude not my aptitude that determines my altitude.</font>
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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 02:17 PM
when i was in the army, we practised firing .50 caliber MGs. NO FLASHES AT ALL in daytime. At night, flashes are not that large either.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:12 PM
yup,

have to agree with hawk here...i've fired everything from a 5.56 to 12.7 and the muzzle flash is almost non-existant...however, in speaking with a Luftwaffe ace, he stated that you could see the flash...maybe the flash suppressors were different, or even non-existant? I know the .50cal hasn't changed too much since WW2...hmmm...

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:52 PM
LW_lcarp wrote:
-
-
- Extreme_One wrote:
--
-- Hollywood always portrays rather large gun flashes -
-- That is the only evidence I'VE seen. Have you
-- seen anything to contradict the game then?
--
- Yes i have seen enough gun flashes to contradict
- hollywood. And i hope you dont beleive everything
- holloywood says /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- You can even try it at home your self get out you
- rifle and in the day time fire it. now go out at
- night and fire it
-
-

I fired a .44 Magnum During the Day There is a Flash http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

altho its much brighter @ night

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:15 PM
The mk108s flash are about right.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:44 PM
the guns proberly dint have flash supresurs save weight and less complicated

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:45 PM
If you fire a gun with a long muzzle, the flash will be much less. For the guns on the wings of these planes, the muzzles are very short. This would make a much bigger flash.

Why the complaining anyway? Do the flashes really hinder you in some way? I have not seen a plane yet that it did hinder me. Or is this another realism thing? If so, enjoy the game for all its glory and get on with it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 05:30 PM
The guns in the planes wings were the same guns used by ground forces..same length muzzle.. also, the Mk108 and other spinner mounted weapons fired through a long channel making their muzzle effectively much longer..

Muzzle flashes in the daylight frfrom the gunners perspective are very overdone in FB and IL2. It may be a combination of the speed limitations of the monitors and G cards combined with some faulty portrayal..but either way its far more of a detriment to visibility than it ever was in reality.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:03 PM
Would be a good move if muzzle flashes would be made at least an selectable option if Oleg still can´t be convinced that the visual report of a weapon firing doesn´t look like in the game, same goes for the extensive smoke on the bullet trajectorys, which looks especially surreal with small calibre machineguns or Flak. Yes, i know, some Guncam Video footage displays smoke along the trajectory, but then again the recording doesn´t tell us the altitude at the time of the recording nor the meteorological conditions ...i suppose you don´t see an aircraft dragging behind vapor trails (you can see at high alt) when it comes in for landing either....



============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:14 PM
You just listen to the Americans in this thread: They have a constitutional right to know everything about muzzle flashes and so... They all seem to have a firearm hung by the TV set. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

(Ooops, don't you take that rifle, please, I just didn't want to write this...) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

- Dux Corvan -

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:25 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- You just listen to the Americans in this thread:
- They have a constitutional right to know everything
- about muzzle flashes and so... They all seem to have
- a firearm hung by the TV set. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
Now what ya mean by that why have to walk all the way acroos the room to get your gun when if ya lean it up next to the door jam its easier to reach http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:31 PM
I posted about this months ago shortly after FB's release.

The explanations given by Maddox on this issue are simply bogus. Don't buy into their reasoning on why the muzzle flashes can't be altered, never have.

There is nothing stopping the time of day being checked, and having the result of this query alter the alpha value of the muzzle flash textures when they're drawn. They wouldn't even have to change any of the texture files themselves, as far as I can tell from what's on screen.

In FB, flashes are so bright that you can literally see a 30 cal muzzle flash from 4000 metres away in broad daylight. I don't think we need to get into a detailed scientific discussion regarding the composition of WW2 era powders to tell that this is utterly, completely, flat wrong. There is no wriggle room here. It is wrong.

A project like this [value check alters the translucency of a texture] would be something that could be handed out to a first year university CS lab and have a working code example handed back by the end of that days class. I cannot work out why this is such a big deal for Maddox to address.

Again, sorry for the tone of this - guess I shouldn't be so mean to Maddox that I have to apoligise for it almost every message :> .. but the only conclusion that I can come to regarding Olegs posts on this issue are either:

a) there is something going on with english to russian translations somewhere and he simply does not understand what is being complained about through no real fault of his own, or

b) he just likes things the way they are and is not open to any reasonable argument on the issue, but won't say so.

I liked the story someone posted a while back about people showing the MK108 flash to a Czech 109 ace and having him giggle his head off at it. Ha, ha, ha.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:54 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- You just listen to the Americans in this thread:
- They have a constitutional right to know everything
- about muzzle flashes and so... They all seem to have
- a firearm hung by the TV set.

Actually, I do have a fully operational M1 Garand in my living room near the TV...Doesn't everybody?

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:16 PM
GK66SS wrote:
- DuxCorvan wrote:
-- You just listen to the Americans in this thread:
-- They have a constitutional right to know everything
-- about muzzle flashes and so... They all seem to have
-- a firearm hung by the TV set.
-
- Actually, I do have a fully operational M1 Garand in
- my living room near the TV...Doesn't everybody?
-
-

well, i have a 8mm mouser in my bedroom leaning in a corner, right next to a automatic .22, got a 410 and another 22 by the front door, cant forget the semiauto 12gau in the living room, and the .25 pistol on top of the tv
but of course i live in the country away from town, so can just go shoot a deer from my front porch, those things are everywhere here

----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:27 PM
The deers should have their own guns, too. You know, they live in the country away from the town, and they have to protect themselves from lunatic riflemen who wander in front of their homes with a Mauser in a hand. Lately, these things are everywhere there. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:15 PM
Well the flashes of mgs looklike a torch... they dont ->Flash<-
But they dont bother me anyway...

<center>[i]1mg to me and ur down /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif [i]</center>

<center>-='EverdarK<|>Tracer'=-</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:34 PM
I saw a thing on D-Wings about the Il-2 and had some really good footage of 4 Sturmoviks straffing something (the cam was focused on the planes) and the flashes from thier cannon and machine-guns were quite large.

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"The day is mine!"

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:37 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- You just listen to the Americans in this thread:
- They have a constitutional right to know everything
- about muzzle flashes and so... They all seem to have
- a firearm hung by the TV set

I am an American??? I ll have a long disscusion with my parents next time i see them...



Message Edited on 08/17/0309:39PM by Hawk162

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:18 PM
I wouldn't be too hard on Oleg. Muzzle flashes from the larger calibre aircraft weapons could be quite bright. Even in daytime. From personal experience I can vouch that American and British weapons are far more subdued than in the model. American philosophy on aircraft cannon has been to design a barrel, bullet, and propellant combination that limits muzzle flash. A spectacular muzzle flash is the continued combustion of propellant in free air after the bullet leaves the barrel. A softer flash occurs, noticeable only really on a dark night, from the very hot, fully combusted gasses exiting.

I can also personally vouch that Soviet weapons above 20mm often had HUGE muzzle flashes that made it appear that the entire nose was on fire when the weapon was firing. "Want a higher muzzle velocity comrade? Ivanovich, put more propellant in the casings!" It is cheaper than lengthening the barrel or spending twenty thousand rubles to research a problem brute force solved by a half kopek of powder.

Soviet and American machine guns, usually slightly modified infantry weapons (.50 and .30 cal and 12.7MM) were designed for minimum flash so the gunners position would not be compromised. These flashes seem overdone in the sim.

I can't personally vouch for German weapons but have noticed sporadic flashes from larger German weapons on an occasional basis in some historic film. It appears to be a sporadic "winking", never the wholesale nose on fire scenario more common to Soviet aircraft. The Germans WOULD spend 20,000 Marks to fix a problem of a half pfennig of propellant. I think there is a large element of "Gee, that looks COOL" involved rather than historically correct modeling. Regrettable, but it IS cool! lol

Cheers, Conan_249th

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 11:32 PM
I have fired a lot of small arms so I know that they can't be seen ( flashes ) too well on a sunny day. But I have never fired a Mk108 or 37mm so I can't say for sure if it's modelled right. I do think that it probably should be longer and thinner instead of so broad it obstructs your vision when you shoot. I doubt the flashes were that broad. But not totally sure.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:03 AM
i think it looks so cool that i don't care if it's totally wrong. And if it's obstructing your view then your obviously taking much too long bursts of fire. they should be no longer then a second or two. beleave me, a plane can be taken down with a 2 second burst of fire.

yoyoyo, the not-so-deadly flying pig

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:28 AM
I have a friend that goes to church with me and he actually was in a B-17 in WWII. He told me that when he manned any of the guns with duel barrels it was hard to keep the target in sight due to the amount of blinding flash. He said he could only fire a few rounds at a time and stop to refocus his eyes on the target and then fire again. Sounded scary to me. I think the game does it about right but at the same time maybe it could have had a switch like some other option do.

He never told me which position he manned so I'm guessing the top turret right behind the pilot/co-pilot seats or tail gunner. He's 6'2" so its not the ball gunner for sure. I got this info because I asked him specifically about gun flare because of what I saw in the game. I was curious and I knew he flew in bombers. He said the game seems like its potrayed fairly well by how I decribed it to him.

Beware of the Flying Tigers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:02 AM
Just Curious,

Have any of you played CFS 2 from Microsoft? The muzzle flashes in that game are perfect. With planes like the Corsair and Hellcat that had 6 50's in the wings-the muzzle flashes were so good that they (the designers) modeled the flashes so that there are individaul flashes in each barrel. The gun sound for the 50's were better than those in FB.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:14 AM
Someone mentioned smoke rising from the chimneys, how about cordite smoke from the guns, trailing back, as they are fired. 30mm cannons in IL-2 have a suggestion of it, but smaller calibre weapons also trailed smoke. There was an account of a novice RAF pilot around the time of the BoB who fired his guns then noticed with dread smoke trailing back. He thought he'd been hit until he realised it was his own guns...303's.

"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:38 AM
Cannon & Machine Gun flashes look bigger on camera footage because of camera sppeds at capturing images......

the human eye doesnt see exactly how big the flash actually is most of the time

the flashes in FB are a comic add-in

what would be cool is a Config INI file option to lower it like we do with the lensflare

fiestapower wrote:
- they are thier cos real gun flashes were huge

fiestapower YOU IS WRONG

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:32 AM
fiestapower wrote:
- they are thier cos real gun flashes were huge
-
-



WRONG.





JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"

Message Edited on 08/17/0310:34PM by JG27_Arklight

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:04 AM
Apparently, the muzzle flashes in the original Il2:Sturmovik (v. 1.0) had small muzzle flashes. But players demanded bigger flashes, and so Oleg:1C gave us bigger flashes for added dramatic effect.


What I wish they modelled in FB was gunsmoke. I have seen a lot of fabulous WWII Pacific guncam footage (in color) taken from U.S. Naval fighters (Hellcats, Corsairs). Often these pilots are strafing Japanese cargo ships and grounded IJN planes on runways (at very steep dive angles!).

What you notice is that these planes have very distinct trails, or puffs, of gunsmoke streaming from behind each machine gun. Very visible and cool looking.

CFS2 from Microsoft had this effect which was very convincing of the real footage:


http://www.netwings.org/files/misc/smokingguns.jpg



(Note the very small muzzle flash as well).


As of now, Il2/FB has only those straight, linear streaks of non-volumetric smoke trailing each machine gun round. Doesn't look anything like the real footage (at least of U.S. naval fighters).

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:04 AM
Well, how about to model smoke from cigarette (if the pilot was smoker)? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif - and of course light from it