PDA

View Full Version : 190 Dogfighting (HELP!)



azpilot
01-02-2004, 06:46 PM
hello all,
I have been playing FB for about 8mos and am now pretty good at flyimg most of the planes in the sim EXCEPT the 190. I can use it fine against bombers and ground targets(easy targets) but i am unable to use it well against other fighters(i get shot down a lot) can someone here give me some tips about using the 190 against other fighters?
thanks,
David

azpilot
01-02-2004, 06:46 PM
hello all,
I have been playing FB for about 8mos and am now pretty good at flyimg most of the planes in the sim EXCEPT the 190. I can use it fine against bombers and ground targets(easy targets) but i am unable to use it well against other fighters(i get shot down a lot) can someone here give me some tips about using the 190 against other fighters?
thanks,
David

faustnik
01-02-2004, 06:48 PM
Go fast, don't turn. Only go up and down, never sideways. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sounds silly but, that's the key.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig

p1ngu666
01-02-2004, 06:53 PM
oh, keep the speed up, like 300+ min
the endorhorte nosblah boost is just extra fuel, u can leave it on all the time
ecomany is a bit dire tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WooHooToYou
01-02-2004, 06:55 PM
The best tip for dogfighting with a 190, is to choose a real dogfighter instead (like a Yak3 for example).

The only other â˜fighterâ' youâ'll shoot down with a 190 is a P47.

BTW the P47 is also known as the target drone.

Raider_356th
01-02-2004, 07:08 PM
not true WhooHoo, ive seen some good 190 pilots, mostly the Redwulf guys, and as for the P47, there are alot of people out there that are good at flying it. The key to flying the 190 is speed and alt. zoom and boom everyone. Also use manual mixture to get extra power outta your engine.

Wildman
5E_B
364thFG Commanding Officer
"Too Tough To Tame"
"Fighter Aircraft Are Designed-And Fighter Pilots Are Trained-To Fight. If There Are Enemy Aircraft In The Air, And Contact Is Not Made, Somthing Is Wrong"
-From VMF-214 ("BlackSheep") Offical History, Appendix E: Major Boyington's Combat Tactics
www.freewebs.com/wildmanshanger/wildmansig.jpg

azpilot
01-02-2004, 07:11 PM
I had also seen several refrences to using the 190's roll agility to preform a rolling scissors. I cannot seem to get a scissors to work in-sim though, can someone tell me how to do a rolling scissors that works?

olaleier
01-02-2004, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by azpilot:
I had also seen several refrences to using the 190's roll agility to preform a rolling scissors. I cannot seem to get a scissors to work in-sim though, can someone tell me how to do a rolling scissors that works?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, although I'm no 190 expert, I would rather do flat scissors in a 190. (I assume by your post you know the difference)

The point is that the deficiency in turn is overcome by the ability to change direction. A rolling scissor has constant roll/turn motion, where as a flat scissor has straight 180 deg rolls (90 left to 90 right) and straight pulls.

Against deflection-shot challenged AI, short (but rough, if you know where the snap goes, you use it) pulls with very quick direction changes has saved my behind many times.

StellarRat
01-02-2004, 07:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:
BTW the P47 is also known as the target drone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Target drone my A$$. I've been very successful with the P-47. Plenty of supposedly "more manueverable" fighters have died in front of my guns. You just have to know how to fly it. If your gunnery is good you can take snapshots and shoot down just about anything. You have so much ammo you can afford long bursts that the enemy will fly through if your lead is too much.

VW-IceFire
01-02-2004, 08:16 PM
P-47's and FW190's can be the most deadly planes in the game if flown properly. Both have their advantages and I like the 190 a bit better than the P-47 but they have their moments (and the P-47 is the best - bar none - multi-role WWII fighter that we currently have).

I have one problem with scissors - where are you supposed to end up in? I find a flat scissors kills your speed but keeps you a moving target. Rolling scissors is even harder to follow but you probably loose even more speed or altitude...so you end up in an energy depleted state and a smart enemy will just throttle back and wait for you to finish and then gun you down. Any good way to finish?

Aside from defensive manuvers the 190 is fantastic for high speed attacks and slash manuvers from higher altitude. Almost never fight with alt advantage...if you do - try and disengage and get away.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

GoodKn1ght
01-02-2004, 08:24 PM
i turn with mustangs in the dora and find im pretty successful.

Hunter82
01-02-2004, 09:04 PM
don't breath heavy. In 1.21 if you breath too heavy the 109 loses cable control or splits in half

==============================
Mudmovers (http://www.mudmovers.com)
ATI Catalyst Beta Tester
Catalyst Feedback (http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/)
Catalyst Driver Download (http://www.ati.com/support/driver.html)
==============================

olaleier
01-02-2004, 09:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

I have one problem with scissors - where are you supposed to end up in? I find a flat scissors kills your speed but keeps you a moving target. Rolling scissors is even harder to follow but you probably loose even more speed or altitude...so you end up in an energy depleted state and a smart enemy will just throttle back and wait for you to finish and then gun you down. Any good way to finish?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, that is the stick and rudder stuff. Don your white scarf!

You will have to stay fast, for any defensive manouver to be successful, you will want your enemy to follow you and not gain any advantage doing so.
---begin edit---
(edit: unclear sentence, blame it on beer. Know your foe. If you can out-accelerate him, do hard turns (without stalling, unless you want the snap) and initate your next turn gradually (we are talking seconds), if he out-turns you but is inferior in the roll, swallow your pounding heart and do as many reverses as you can. If he both out-turns and out-rolls you, ask for someone else's advice, or
learn to appreciate the rugged but smooth fabric that is silk)
--- end edit ---
The flat scissors in the 190 happens when you have done everything else wrong, which I often do! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It is very simple, use the scissors to get behind the bad guy. If you see any good schematics of the scissors' tactical value, apply it.

IF HE FOLLOWS YOU, like in ANY scissors movement, he will fall behind eventually if you can utillize the better roll/turn rate (the combination is the key). When I see the AI go into to the usual barrel roll, I point straight to the sky an dive down on him while he is busy wasting his energy.

The scissors, especially in the FW-190 is a vanilla move (basic), and if your foe counters it wisely, you might be paddle-less in an elevated creek position. That is true for ANY move.

However, the AI eats this raw. No prob there, you can't expect Oleg to program everything and then some on to your CD. Online, noobs eats this raw. "The foe turns out of my sight, I trun with him" Simple. A more experienced foe, more aware of the -190's deficiencies, will ALSO fall for this. (insert disclaimer here) The point being that you are not turning your foe behind you, you are rolling him behing you (yes, we are stilll doing flat scissors).

He who can do the most turns, will cover the least forward distance and thus be behind, barring the hundreds of variables and good shots.

The people more experinced than me in flyingthe -190 will tell you not to get in to this position, but it is very bad advice when you find yourself there no matter what! It happens!

The most important part: If you do 100% flat scissors, I can wait and let you fly into my stream of bullets (how I get AI), ALWAYS add an element of uncertainty to your movements, be them ever so slight in the vertical. You cannot outclimb anything that has more potential than you (he is waiting for your turns with throttle back) but you can at least ruin his aim, BE IT EVER SO SLIGHTLY.

[This message was edited by olaleier on Fri January 02 2004 at 08:55 PM.]

Triscadec
01-02-2004, 09:42 PM
"I have one problem with scissors - where are you supposed to end up in?"

One of you is supposed to die. Someone will either make a mistake, or get lucky and end the fight.

T

kyrule2
01-02-2004, 09:59 PM
Azpilot, I posted my 190 flying tips here. Others added to the discussion and it turned out to be a good thread. It starts on page 2, just hit page 1 to read from the beginning. Hope this helps.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=22810009&r=65610019#65610019

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

Tully_78th
01-02-2004, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I have one problem with scissors - where are you supposed to end up in? I find a flat scissors kills your speed but keeps you a moving target. Rolling scissors is even harder to follow but you probably loose even more speed or altitude...so you end up in an energy depleted state and a smart enemy will just throttle back and wait for you to finish and then gun you down. Any good way to finish?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like you're doing the rolling scissors pulling too much G. If you do it right, you should be maintaining energy. Check out this article (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html) at SimHQ.

=================================================

http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)


Salut
Tully

TX-Zen
01-02-2004, 11:14 PM
I made a couple of rather lengthy comments about the scissors in Kyrule's 190 thread, rather than retype them out I'd point you over to it for a look.

Lot's of people 'fall' for it, not just noobs. There is still a myth around the FW that it's deadmeat at low altitude and that is simply not the case.

To me any contest with another airplane is a chance for me to enjoy what I love about the game...the aerial chess match against an experten. I always assume the other guy is better than me and try as hard as I can to fly to my limits.

One of two things will happen, either he won't be as good as I thought and I'll hopefully get the kill or get out of a jam, or it will be a tough, grueling fight where even if I get shot down I will feel that I flew my best and was downed by the better pilot.

This is why I love the Dora so much in FB. It has awesome performance, but it's calculated performance. It does not come with a simple pull of the stick, it requires constant attention to the minutia of a fight, it requires an extremely aggressive attitude and is ultimately something that appeals to the intellectual side of me personally. It is not a brute force airplane and cannot simply outdo anyone...even climbing takes knowledge of CEM, AoA and best speeds. I prefer it over the Anton's in part because of that performance and in part because of the lack of big guns...you have to really fight to get in the saddle and then you have to have intense concentration to score hits with the guns all the while thinking about your next move.

This is also why I do dogfight in the Dora rather than pure BnZ. It's not that great at BnZ because of the guns, but it's a hell of an E fighter. Again, everything you do in it requires attention to detail and this is what makes the satisfaction level so high when you are victorious...most of the time you have earned it for real.

If you do end up having to do a scissors you could say that you screwed up. Thats partly true, but sometimes you get bounced by a bandit that has taken the time to be in a high E state before engaging you, or against one that has simply outflown you. Getting to know how to do it well is very important because it really is that effective, at least in my experience.

It applies to the whole series too...when flying an F8, knowing the scissors is going to save your behind because in the midst of all your ground pounding you will be bounced by superior planes on a regular basis. It's a fact of life for a jabo pilot, whether it be the F8, an IL2 or something else...you always have fighters gunning for you.


Gunnery in FB is hard. Most of us think we're great shots, but we're not. Only a few of the many pilots out there really have excellent gunnery. The scissors plays against both the difficulty of gunnery in FB and against our natural (over?)confidence in our shooting skills.

Anything that delays the inevitability of me getting shot down is something that I am interested in, because as I mentioned somewhere else, I don't believe in no win situations. Grim circumstances do exist, bad luck has a part in it and you never know if the other guy is just that good, but to me when a bandit is in my rear quarter and coming in aggressively, it's not time to hang it up or run for a wingman.

It's show time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
TX-OC3 Server 209.163.147.67:21000
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

GoodKn1ght
01-03-2004, 01:01 AM
zen, is there any chance you could post a ntrk of you performing a scissors move in a 190 vs a human opponent? i think it would be helpful to a lot of folks, you obviously know what you are talking about but it is a little hard to visualize. Also i know every situation is different, it would be cool to see an example though.
~S

ElfunkoI
01-03-2004, 01:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I have one problem with scissors - where are you supposed to end up in? I find a flat scissors kills your speed but keeps you a moving target. Rolling scissors is even harder to follow but you probably loose even more speed or altitude...so you end up in an energy depleted state and a smart enemy will just throttle back and wait for you to finish and then gun you down. Any good way to finish?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like you're doing the rolling scissors pulling too much G. If you do it right, you should be maintaining energy. Check out http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html at SimHQ.

=================================================

http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm

_IL2 Forums Moderator_
http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm


Salut
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too much G eh? Like the above request, I'd like to see a good rolling scissors in the 190. I only try for flat cause I do pull too hard to get any results in the verticle (all results being bad cause I run out of E much faster than a flat scissors).

ElfunkoI
01-03-2004, 02:49 AM
Yikes. Played on a server with D-9 '44 against P-51. I don't know 190 CEM worth crap. Then I hopped in me trusty 109 and layed down the smacketh. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif After the 190 though, the 109 seemed slow (K-4). Definately wanna learn that fast hotrod.

Henkie_
01-03-2004, 03:00 AM
Play the no cockpit.

That is very much easier to aim and shoot. The flying is not so important, aim and shoot is more important.

Also you can change the direction quickly with roll.

but it depend also in what plane the bandit fly relative to you. For example if he is in the horizontal plane, you can change direction quickly in the vertical plane. That means if you point straight up or down, you can also turn faster (roll) and inside the I153 that turns flat.

cu http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EAF274_Henkie

CARBONFREEZE
01-03-2004, 03:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The best tip for dogfighting with a 190, is to choose a real dogfighter instead (like a Yak3 for example).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. I pitty you. Fw-190 is the best plane for killing yaks bar none.

Hey Zen how about we get together after I get my gaming system back up and kill some more yaks? =)

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

JG14_Josf
01-03-2004, 03:42 AM
Sustained turn techniques (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm)

Above is my out of date IL2 presentation of the sustained turn technique as described in "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw
ISBN 0-87021-059-9

Anyone who is serious about learning how to fight air combat will be richly rewarded with the purchase and study of Shaw's book.

The flight sim IL2/FB appears to do a very good job of creating a world where energy is king.

It should make sense that without energy nothing can happen and that the one with more energy can make more things happen.

It also then figures that the one that can do the most with the least amount of energy will have an advantage over the ones that can do little with an abundance of energy.

The FWs tend to fall in the later catagory.

So if the King is flying an FW and he is higher and faster than anyone else but heirs to the throne are flying Yak3s and LA7s then the King had better be frugal with his energy.

If the FW pilot relinquishes the throne of a higher energy state to an opponent that has greater energy efficient maneuvering capabilities then the FW pilot had better learn some tricks that steal energy from the newly crowned king, or he had better be lucky, or real good, or the new king had better be lazy, stupid, or both, otherwise the FW pilot is going to be dead meat.

The sustained turn technique utilizes all the advantages an energy fighter has over an angles fighter and once the technique is understood it can serve as a very reliable measure to find out just who really is the king. Application of the sustained turn technique can illuminate those situations where relative energy states are questionable.

On the other hand; if the King is obviously bearing down on your six, if the situation appears only needing a fork to prove that you are done, where the fat lady is all but singing out her first note, then any move that forces an overshoot will delay the inevitable or at least give the King more time to be stupid and who knows maybe your wingman can pull the rabbit out of the hat.

Scissors are defensive maneuvers used to force an overshoot.

Sustained turn techniques are two circle or nose to tail timed offensive vertical overshoot manuevers that lure the enemy into burning a relatively higher amount of energy. They work for the FW against the A.I. in IL2/FB, and they work against unwary human pilots on-line with IL2/FB.

So, in summary, if you want to stay the king in an FW then stay high and go fast. Stay above and faster than all your enemies but if someone is higher and faster and if this condition of inferiority is realized soon enough then sustained turn techniques can be used to make him lower and slower. If the unfortunate occurs and the enemy is higher, faster, and on our six, then kiss your *** goodby or hope for a miracle, try to force an overshoot, hell the guy may just fly in front of your guns!

Look at the sustained turn technique in Shaw's book. Use the enemies weaknesses if they have any.

Suckerpunch11
01-03-2004, 04:22 AM
Yep, anyone that's serious about flight simming should read Fighter Combat. Also, an easy way to think about scissoring is this: Flat scissors is a contest to see who can fly the slowest. Rolling scissors is a contest to see who has the most energy.

Also, as far as the FW190 is concerned, think of it more as a killing machine than a fighter aircraft. Don't enter into combat unless you have an advantage--like approaching unseen (full real only, of course), or having higher E, having good backup, etc. WWII aircraft were not designed to win duels or fair fights. They were designed to kill, then disengage.

If this doesn't suit your style, and engaging in a mad, swirling dogfight is more appealing than realism, then hop in a i153 and kick everybody's butt that's dumb enough to get suckered in.

TX-Zen
01-03-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CARBONFREEZE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The best tip for dogfighting with a 190, is to choose a real dogfighter instead (like a Yak3 for example).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. I pitty you. Fw-190 is the best plane for killing yaks bar none.

Hey Zen how about we get together after I get my gaming system back up and kill some more yaks? =)

_Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!_

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carbon, I'd love to, thanks for the invite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


What I would like to do is have Kyrule, Nicolas, Robban, BS87, Maj Death, you and I get on comms one evening to fly 190's together. It would be great fun to get out there and cause some hell and I can only imagine the havoc we might raise.

Another thing we ought to do is laydown a series of 190 tracks and post them to for others to see some of the tactics we use on a regular basis.

I'm working on recording tracks of the scissors and E fighting, a few people like GoodK1ight have asked to see examples in action. Hopefully I'll have them finished sometime this coming week. While the scissors is relatively easy to demonstrate at least if not perform, E fighting is more subtle and fluid and not so obvious as to what is really happening. That makes it somewhat difficult to clearly see what to do, but I'm going to at least try and demonstrate the style I fly in, for whatever thats worth.



Give me a buzz when you are ready to fly and we'll get out there and cause some trouble http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


&lt;S!&gt;

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
TX-OC3 Server 209.163.147.67:21000
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg (http://www.txsquadron.com)

[This message was edited by TX-Zen on Sat January 03 2004 at 05:58 AM.]