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View Full Version : Why I think adding more "cripple"-effects is bad for the game



karlHz_
11-10-2014, 02:01 PM
Hi,

(Disclaimer: This is my first post and I am not at an über-high level so... yeah)

I've been playing around with a number of different decks and heroes and I believe that the cripple effects are not good for the game. They are basically the forte of necropolis and I get that necropolis needs something to stand out but there are some (I believe) problems with crippling that I'd like to adress:

1. The main weakness of cripple-effect decks (so far as I've tested) are rush and board clear type decks. These decks are the forte of Inferno, which already have some of the best decks in the current meta (arkath+spellstealer, anyone?). Basically, this kind of mechanic twists the meta even further in favour of an already favourable faction and deck type.

2. It is fantastically boring to play against. If at least there was some kind of "set up, tear down", but most of the time, there isn't. Once there are a couple of eternal apprentices on the board, there is a fair chance the game grinds to a virtual halt. This is even more true when you are up against anastasya. There is a fair chance that, because of the (generally speaking) low attack on cripple creatures, they take forever to push through and you are able to fill up your board again to wall of damage to your hero, but that doesn't really matter, because your critters get crippled again. This is where you need board clear, or the whole thing just becomes some sort of weird mill deck where you aren't actually eating up your opponents deck, you're just waiting for the game to end. And yes, there are specific cards (such as time jump) that you use to break the cycle, but the large point remains.

3. It is boring to play with. Okay, so that's my personal taste and I haven't really gone all out on this but when your aim seems to be to just lock your opponents board down and then ensure you can push through at just the right time and really, really slow-poke them to death or wait until your opponent just gives up and quits when they realise they will never be able to break the deadlock. It takes ages, there is very little skill involved and it doesn't feel dynamic...

That said, wouldn't it be better to go with poison instead (the other counter-based mechanic for necropolis) at least for future expansions? It's not super fun to get poison either, but at least things die instead of just lying around doing nothing...

So... What do you think?

twardy_
11-10-2014, 02:37 PM
who cares? its inferno paradise anyway

Gdinut
11-10-2014, 03:43 PM
i will agree its boring // annoying to play against... but that deck is weak and its slow. so most skilled players wont even bother with it.
probably 80% of the meta are rush decks or control decks.
you forgot to mention the time jump deck also beats this deck easily

i tried several builds and its not boring to use. but its not a viable deck if you are looking to rank up or win consistently.
as twardy says you should be more concerned on how to deal with the overpopulation of inferno decks that we have right now.

anyways crippling are not even a common deck i might face one maybe once ever 20 matches or so if i am lucky

LonecatPawstar
11-10-2014, 04:42 PM
As others have said, it's not common so nothing you should be really worried about.

Your point 1 is actually asking for a buff of cripple. So let's ignore that.

Point 2/3: It's not boring to play with cripple if you play a "control+aggressive" deck instead of purely stalling. I rely heavily on spells and insta-kill (cheap death + eternal disciple, mainly) to speed up the pace. But if you chose to play it slowly by stalling and that it bores you, you can only blame yourself for that.
It's not necessarily slow either, as with a decent hand (2 drops + decent spells) you can win frequently by turn 10 if your creatures didn't get blocked too much and if you managed to limit the damage early on.
The new eternal mentor is great for extra damage and easily deals 4-5 damage by turn 6.

I will sometimes stall/slow the game in the beginning, but that's when my early hands forced me to be extremely defensive at the start... and because I know that when we reach 7-8 resources I can play 2 cards per turn or 1 card and use my hero ability to slowly clear the board (I play Ariana), so I try to regain momentum mid game with mini combos.


The main issue with the deck is that it can fail big time - it's very hard/impossible to recover if you have a slow start due to the high cost of creatures and spells (so you need a nice curve). This is also partly a meta issue, due to the prevalence of inferno and rush as you've pointed out already which probably adds up to make the deck extremely unpopular at high level (with a different meta, the deck would fare much better I'm sure).

I would add some poison creatures personally, but really the last expansion only had a selection of creatures for cripple, and none for poison - so blame the people making the game here.

A really good point though about the lack of finisher ("set up, tear down"). Yes, there is none, instead you need to kill your opponents by chunks of 2 or 3 HP, methodically. I wish there would be a better one than the 3 Fortune finisher (!!!).
The problem is that cripple need creatures (3/4 might), spells (4 magic), fortune finisher (3 fortune) and also need to use that hero power from time to time. Personally, I play 3/4/0 mostly - screw the fortune finisher! - as I don't have the budget for it during a game.

So to summarize, I don't need more cripple effects, just more finishers.

Licker34
11-10-2014, 04:45 PM
I don't know that it's boring necessarily, but it is very tedious usually. That said, and as Gdinut said, the majority of crippling decks are not actually very competitive, they always seem to lack some kind of actual finisher, and at some point you should draw out your removal, or combo, or whatever it is that your deck actually does and push through your damage for the win.

I'm not sure if I have ever lost to Anastasia. I'm sure I've not lost much to any deck running Creeping Darkness.

On paper crippling sounds good, but the problem quickly becomes the need for efficient removal while you still have credible creatures to do damage with on the board. For whatever reason I've never seen this.

Outside of some odd decks which probably just have Crippling Darkness as a 'throw in' spell, but not built around it per-se. In any case, in the few cases where that is what I suspected CD was pure win-more, it did not lead to a win by itself.

Maerwin
11-10-2014, 06:14 PM
I'm not sure if I have ever lost to Anastasia. I'm sure I've not lost much to any deck running Creeping Darkness.

On paper crippling sounds good, but the problem quickly becomes the need for efficient removal while you still have credible creatures to do damage with on the board. For whatever reason I've never seen this.

Outside of some odd decks which probably just have Crippling Darkness as a 'throw in' spell, but not built around it per-se. In any case, in the few cases where that is what I suspected CD was pure win-more, it did not lead to a win by itself.

Creeping Darkness won me a lot of games with Ariana. One semi-random Soulreaver per turn is quite an efficient removal.

My problem with Anastasya is simple - there is a little reason to take her over Ariana. She has 2 more HP, great. Will you take that over way better starting stats and Prime magic? I won't. The ability is... interesting. Many people make the (IMO) mistake of making a crippling deck around that ability. Anastasya's ability doesn't synergize with crippling cards at all! Ariana's does! As for a non-crippling deck... that ability is nice, but I'll take TJ, thanks.


Crippling deck overall - I don't think it's a problem. Is it boring to play against? Yes. It it strong? Not at all. In ranked game, enjoy what will probably be your win. In unranked? Leave upon seeing Anastasya.

karlHz_
11-10-2014, 07:41 PM
I agree with most of what is said and pointed out here, but (some) of you seem to misunderstand me: It is not that I think it is overpowered. It is not - it is very vulnerable to anything that can put on decent early preassure or can easily clear the board (e.g. Inferno) which seems to be the game of the day.

Now, I am not a top tier player. I don't have all cards or even a majority of the good cards currently dominating the meta. That means I am not mostly playing against Namtarus or Kiril but against all sorts of decks with about the same set up (cobbled together from what people have, rather than constructed with the most optimal combinations). I am sure most of you are playing at a higher level than me and that is all fine and dandy. My point was not really about whether this type of deck is good or not, but that I think it would be bad to add more crippling effects to the game and I think it was a bad idea to give a hero the power to dole out crippling counters. I am not saying all crippling effects (or decks) are bad. My worry is that Ubisoft/the gamedesigners/whoever makes the decisions decided to go with "crippling" as the mechanic of the day for necro during the last expansion. If they continue down that path for necro (baring Namtaru rush, which I believe is a special case) and they decide they are going to make necro crippling a way to compete in a meta roughly the same the current one, I think it would be bad for the game.

Star-Seeker-
11-10-2014, 09:21 PM
Yeah, I agree, Anastasya is a super lame hero. I've never lost to her in the 14 games I've played against her, but I've never enjoyed a match against her either. I used to just leave if I got matched up against her, but I figured I'd just go ahead and take my free wins. Games against her just turn into a sort of strange DPS race with her spamming the hero power and you just putting power on the board faster than she can remove it. Eventually she'll realize that since she was spamming the hero power, she has no levels and can't play anything, and then she loses. It's pretty boring, but pretty routine once you get used to it. At least it seems like she isn't very popular right now.

I actually like playing against Ariana though since the purpose of Cripple in that deck is to remove your minions. It's not like she just Cripples your minions forever and then has no idea how to actually win the game. I agree that Ariana makes much better use of Cripple than Anastasya.

EDIT:


My problem with Anastasya is simple - there is a little reason to take her over Ariana. She has 2 more HP, great. Will you take that over way better starting stats and Prime magic? I won't. The ability is... interesting. Many people make the (IMO) mistake of making a crippling deck around that ability. Anastasya's ability doesn't synergize with crippling cards at all! Ariana's does! As for a non-crippling deck... that ability is nice, but I'll take TJ, thanks.

Anastasya's spell schools are Dark and Prime, so she can use Time Jump. That said, Mother and Ariana make much better use of those spell schools than Anastasya IMO.

jjf40licks
11-10-2014, 09:48 PM
Yes crippling is truly not the best mechanic in the game. Since I like necropolis overall, I hope the next expansion will make poison viable, the other necro mechanic which is not fleshed out either.

geo2929
11-10-2014, 09:57 PM
I'm another player like the original poster - Commander level, not top-tier player nor collection, and I *detest* playing against cripple decks. I don't care whether I win or lose, I play DoC to have fun, and this type of deck is totally not fun to play against. I insta-quit as soon as it's clear that it's a cripple-based deck.

blackdragonstor
11-11-2014, 08:43 AM
I was playing vampire deck with Svetlana and lost after 30+ turns against Anastasya just because of the card difference.
I had 60 while the opponent had over 100.
But I was close to winning.

Anways...it was one of the most boring matches I ever played in doc.

LonecatPawstar
11-11-2014, 05:41 PM
Yeah, I agree, Anastasya is a super lame hero.
...
I actually like playing against Ariana though since the purpose of Cripple in that deck is to remove your minions. It's not like she just Cripples your minions forever and then has no idea how to actually win the game. I agree that Ariana makes much better use of Cripple than Anastasya.I quickly put together a 3/3/3 Anastasya deck... I think actually that you can discard creatures just as well (or even better before you run out of cards) using:

4 x cheap death - 1 cost/1 magic
4 x no mercy for the meek - 1 cost/2 fortune
2 x shadow of death - 3 cost/3 fortune
4 x Eternal disciple - 3 cost
Add "Alone in the dark" and that some really good amount of removal.

The main problem with Ariana is that it seems more useful to increase magic to 4, 5 or 6 with her and ignore fortune altogether - 2/3 fortune is too much of a stretch. Still like her better so far, as increasing spells to 4/5/6 opens up some nice options.

Khobai2012
11-12-2014, 12:39 AM
crippling is up there with direct damage for most unfun deck to play against.

theyre simply not fun game mechanics...

Xyx0rz
11-12-2014, 01:07 AM
The game can't handle massive crippling. Creatures have to die to make room for new ones. I'm fine with my creatures being crippled and then killed (as per Ariana), but having them just sit around and be useless isn't helping the game along. Once the board clogs up, chances of a fun game decrease to about zero. Meanwhile, Anastasya isn't winning either, so it's really just a griefing strategy, which is super lame. And if she's trying to win through some 15 resource combo with The Shadow of Death + double Eternal Apprentice + Time Jump, then it's a super lame 15 turn game ending in a super lame anticlimax.

Fortunately, I have no need to play Ranked. So if I am playing Winferno or Stronkhold I just faceroll Anastasya, and in all other cases I just insta-quit. Not exactly the hallmark of a well-designed hero.

LonecatPawstar
11-12-2014, 02:04 AM
And if she's trying to win through some 15 resource combo with The Shadow of Death + double Eternal Apprentice + Time Jump, then it's a super lame 15 turn game ending in a super lame anticlimax.Never heard of that strategy. Do you have any replays of that?
Wondering if it would even be playable.

Exiledtyrant
11-12-2014, 04:53 AM
What is Hakeem going to have if cripple is weakened? Cripple mill was the only way I was able to beat players starting out with my first standard deck. I couldn't match up to the actual strength of stronghold, inferno, or necro vampires etc so I just locked the board and made sure they could never play the cards. It took a lot of planning and decision making to pull off victories that way. Cripple has glaring weaknesses because it can be countered by the destroy monster event, the hail event, and return to hand abilities be it spell or otherwise. Cripple forces you to load your deck with debuffs, stall and anchor cards. This lets you locks down at most 4 parts easily with the other lanes being completely up to your opponent. I always felt it took a lot of smart play to run a cripple deck effectively. If you mess up for even an instant you opponent is looking at a full hand with plenty of options to end the game soon after. Maybe if earth was better there would be an argument to nerf cripple.

Xyx0rz
11-14-2014, 12:34 AM
so I just locked the board and made sure they could never play the cards.
Wow, that sounds like such fun to play against. /sarcasm

Exiledtyrant
11-14-2014, 04:37 AM
Wow, that sounds like such fun to play against. /sarcasm

It's about as much fun as being constantly rolled by someone who bought all their rares and uniques on day one. Cards like vampire assassins were such a joy to face off against with my crappy Hakeem common starter deck when I first started. Cripple has enough counters as it is and can rarely fight back if board presence is taken back from your opponent.

Xyx0rz
11-15-2014, 07:17 PM
Two wrongs still don't make a right. Better to focus on how the game can be improved so more people can have fun. "Everyone miserable" is equality, but not a good equality.