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dimbismp
11-05-2014, 02:23 PM
One of the french guys who played the game says that ACU's story was (no spoilers,but just in case someone doesn't want to know how good the story is):Good,but predictable.So i was wondering,which game do you think had the best story so far?It would be better if you analyzed your thoughts about each game.

I'll start,by sharing briefly my thoughts about each game:
AC:I cannot really judge this game's plot,as it was the last one i played and i already knew more or less what was going to happen.But,i believe it was quite nice,with remarkable conversations between the characters and a few nice twists towards the end.
AC2:Again,i cannot judge the story well enough,as i already knew what was going to happen.But,trying to ignore both the AC2 fanboys,who say that the story is phenomenal,and the people who completely disagree(eg _M :p ),i believe that the story is far from great.It is full of cliches and predictable,uninteresting twists.Only Ezio's character makes it a little bit interesting.It was a nice change of pace after AC1,but if a game like this was released today,its story wouldn't be received so well.
ACB:Acb's story was a simple one.A revenge story combined with the liberation of Rome and the gradual fall of the Borgia.At least,ACB never takes itself too seriously.
ACR:My only gripe about acr's story is the lack of any villains at all,which resulted in no assassinations.Other than that,it is an ideal finale to Ezio's trilogy.+it had the best ending so far.
AC3:Well,theoretically,Ac3's story seems great,maybe the best in the franchise.But,i never felt that way when i played it.Connor's dull character played a role about it,but te main reason IMO is that the story quickly shifted from being a story about the protagonist to an American revolution story.
AC4BF:This was a story about the creed and not about an assassin killing his targets.It does a great job to show the character progression of edward.Also,the pirate parts were interesting.

What's your thoughts about the plot of each game so far?Will ACU/ACRo succeed ?Will the ac franchise ever produce an exceptional story?Discuss!

Namikaze_17
11-05-2014, 02:29 PM
1) AC3/AC4
2) ACR ( Mainly because of Altair's sequences and the ending)
3) AC1
4) AC2
5) ACB











6) ACL

andrew_m50
11-05-2014, 02:40 PM
ACII, no question.

marvelfannumber
11-05-2014, 02:51 PM
ACII, no question.

I think some people would like to question that actually :rolleyes:

LoyalACFan
11-05-2014, 03:00 PM
Black Flag easily, IMO. Followed by Revelations and AC2 (which was also "good but predictable"). I'm going to withhold my ranking of AC3's story, because it had arguably the best story premise of any of them, but they absolutely butchered it in the execution.

OpticSpecs
11-05-2014, 03:06 PM
AC2 for me, followed by AC1.

dxsxhxcx
11-05-2014, 03:10 PM
Ac1

SpiritOfNevaeh
11-05-2014, 03:24 PM
ACIII.

The story resonated with me a lot more than the previous games.

Games of revenge are getting too cliche for me.

2. AC2
3. AC1
3. AC4
4. AC Brotherhood
5. AC Revelations
6. AC Liberation

PedroAntonio2
11-05-2014, 03:45 PM
1 - ACIII = I loved Connor as a character. The ambiguous targets where you kill them thinkg they are monsters, but when they reveal their motives, you star to question if killing them was really necessary. Haytham and Connor relationship was amazing and very intriguing to see how both are loyal to their convictions about the world and things like freedom or peace.

2 - ACIV - Very emotional storyline...it doesn't have any big conspirancy, but the way they told the story was epic. A lot of charismatic and involving characters...the development of Edward as a character.

3 - ACI - Really complex and ambiguous storyline. The lack of cutscenes ruined the game a little, but the plot is epic and the conspirancy is the best in the series. If they remake this game with Next-Gen graphics, I'm sure it would be the best AC in the franchise.

4 - ACII - The story is simple, but like ACIV it was told in an epic way...Ezio is a great character along with the other characters who helps him. The conspirancy is very well done and the ending was a total mindf*ck.

5 - ACR - The game really have a emotional storyline...but they removed the reveal about Lucy from the game, Subject 16 doesn't reveal anything and appear very little, Yusuf doesn't appear that much....but the story is very impactul and epic.

6 - ACB - I HATE this game's plot...really, it's so simple...Ezio lost all his charm, Cesare is the worst villain in an AC game EVER. And game only goes around '' Borgia this and Borgia that. Borgia, Borgia and Borgia. ''. The targets are way more ridiculous than the targets of ACII.

Z0mbieB0y
11-05-2014, 04:11 PM
Black Flag was the best! The story was complex, the characters were interesting and Edward character's progression was nicely built up! Awesome game

Farlander1991
11-05-2014, 04:32 PM
"Good but predictable" is such a crappy statement, IMO. If a story's good, it's good. Historical parts didn't really have unpredictable parts in AC, almost ever, and modern day was unpredictable just because of the mess of things that was happening that didn't actually get resolved properly. 'Predictability' is not a fault, and does not define quality.

On the topic, though, for me the 'best story' is the best crafted story, and that's certainly AC4. I think in terms of simply plotline, AC1 and AC3 are better, but the way they're implemented is not. AC4 doesn't have any real plot twists, there's nothing really unpredictable (partially that may have to do with me knowing a lot about the historical characters in the game) but it's just such a beautiful story.

ACIV's got awesome pacing. ACIV's got character arcs, small or little, for pretty much everybody. ACIV doesn't have ******** unneeded characters, even those that appear for a few times but everybody's got their own setup and resolution. And while ACIV doesn't delve in philosophy as deep as AC1, or in ambiguity as deep as AC3, it still keeps those things and explores different questions.

I also love the theme of AC4. It doesn't just explore the Creed, it's about finding one's own place in life by having a person who is not sure where he stands (Edward) and pitting against all the other characters who already have an established philosophy (Templars and Assassins) or try to find their own place in life (Pirates) - from Stede Bonnet yearning for adventure, to Hornigold seeking order and discipline, to Roberts' 'merry life and a short one', and others, and they all affect Edward one way or another and bring him closer to accepting the Creed as the way to go by.

The only real flaw of AC4's story is that the open-world gameplay dilutes it a bit. There should have been a little bit more activities or side-dialogues with existing characters. For example, when you go through AC4 story in a linear succession, there's just the perfect amount of Blackbeard in the game, but when you add all the open-world exploration between the games, it may be not enough. Though that certainly didn't remove anything from my enjoyment of the story.

GunnerGalactico
11-05-2014, 04:57 PM
1 - ACIII = I loved Connor as a character. The ambiguous targets where you kill them thinkg they are monsters, but when they reveal their motives, you star to question if killing them was really necessary. Haytham and Connor relationship was amazing and very intriguing to see how both are loyal to their convictions about the world and things like freedom or peace.

2 - ACIV - Very emotional storyline...it doesn't have any big conspirancy, but the way they told the story was epic. A lot of charismatic and involving characters...the development of Edward as a character.

3 - ACI - Really complex and ambiguous storyline. The lack of cutscenes ruined the game a little, but the plot is epic and the conspirancy is the best in the series. If they remake this game with Next-Gen graphics, I'm sure it would be the best AC in the franchise.

4 - ACII - The story is simple, but like ACIV it was told in an epic way...Ezio is a great character along with the other characters who helps him. The conspirancy is very well done and the ending was a total mindf*ck.

5 - ACR - The game really have a emotional storyline...but they removed the reveal about Lucy from the game, Subject 16 doesn't reveal anything and appear very little, Yusuf doesn't appear that much....but the story is very impactul and epic.

6 - ACB - I HATE this game's plot...really, it's so simple...Ezio lost all his charm, Cesare is the worst villain in an AC game EVER. And game only goes around '' Borgia this and Borgia that. Borgia, Borgia and Borgia. ''. The targets are way more ridiculous than the targets of ACII.

Most interesting. I do agree with most of your points, though.

Mine are:

- AC1
- AC3
- AC4
- AC2
- ACR
- ACB
- ACL

ace3001
11-05-2014, 05:27 PM
AC2 and ACB put together was my favourite at a point, mainly since I was really intrigued by the overarching plotline involving modern times, but now, after they tossed out the juicy bits because B-BUT CASUALS DIDN'T SEE THAT VIDEO!!! and then ended Desmond's story in a mess (without actually concluding it there properly to begin with), I just don't know.
Guess I'm going to go with ACR just for how well the emotional moments were handled, despite that game's ending being disappointing plotwise.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-05-2014, 05:44 PM
Great subject for a poll! I was torn between AC2 and Brotherhood, but in the end I opted for AC2, as it had the most character development of any AC story, with Ezio going from a young and rash teenager to a seasoned and thoughtful assassin. Also, I felt Brotherhood's main allure for me was the conclusion of Cristina's story, which wasn't a part of the main storyline.

I also considered AC4, but I felt that the early part of the storyline was rushed - I felt I needed to spend more time in the Pirate Republic.

As for AC1, the story was okay for an origins story, but Ezio's story really blew it out of the water. Revelations was mediocre at best, while AC3, well, the least said about that the better. Suffice to say that AC3 almost convinced me that the series was on its last legs with a cookie-cutter plot taken from the "RAH! RAH! MURIKA!" school of scriptwriting and an overweight assassin who seemed the 18th Century equivalent of a Twinkie-addicted cop.

Megas_Doux
11-05-2014, 07:21 PM
Despite the fact both AC I and AC III have some more interesting grey morals, and thus : templars. AC II better execution aside from its cliche apporach , I went with AC IV simply because there is no "my father this, my father that, vengeance, etc etc" but instead a man that stumbled into the conflict, interacted with the two sides and eventually chose one becoming a better person in the process.

Even though I still think his "conversion" felt kinda rushed.

king-hailz
11-05-2014, 07:44 PM
I am not a fan boy... but I still think AC2 has the best story... It did have problems... but overall the way it was presented with all the characters and the way the story went with being teenage ezio was really amazing TO ME! And it started the journey for my favorite character ever! Which other game do you play a character that you interact with being born... turning into a man... becoming old and dying... that just makes me cry... anyway... This is my list for story...

AC2
ACR
AC4
AC1
ACB
AC3

AC3'S story had a lot going for it... It seemed like it was great... but I think it's presented terribly! The pacing felt wrong... I couldn't see the points the game was trying to make... I didn't like Connor... I didn't even feel emotional when ziio died even though I REALLY wanted to..... It is by far the most disappointing game I have ever played... even though... its not that bad, my hype was SO BIG it just ruined it for me...

AssassinChowder
11-06-2014, 12:26 AM
I really liked AC2, it was the best one I've played so far.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 12:36 AM
<a href="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1340118/?ref_=tt_trv_qu"><span class="character">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdZBRuQnW5k

Frederico Auditore (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1340118/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): It is a good life we lead, brother.
Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1886746/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): The best. May it never change.
Frederico Auditore (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1340118/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): And may it never change us.

As soon as I heard those words, and as the camera panned back to show the cityscape of Florence, and as the music swelled and the Assassin's Creed II title appeared, I knew that AC2 was going to be the best game, and five years and four games later it still is the best.

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 12:38 AM
AC had someone going but AC:2 and AC:B butchered it. AC:R helped rejuvenated what was left and AC:3/IV kept it up, especially AC:IV --> Hands down, the best.

Here's how I would rate the story from best to worst.

AC:IV
AC:3
AC:R/1
AC:2/B

I'm hoping Rogue will surpass 3 and IV. Not so sure about Unity, though. It's screams another AC:2/B.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 12:42 AM
It's screams another AC:2/B.

Really? From what I've seen so far it screams the opposite to me, I'm very excited about Unity's story.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 12:42 AM
Hmm. Probably AC IV for me. AC II and ACB are just out of this whole equation. AC I is an AWESOME story with an even more amazing character arc but the beginning was too slow. ACR was well done and it actually made me like Ezio but some of the dialogue was cringy and the cinematic climaxes were overblown. AC III had the best narrative but the execution was lacking. AC IV is the most well balanced and well told story imo.

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 12:48 AM
Really? From what I've seen so far it screams the opposite to me, I'm very excited about Unity's story.

You know what? I change my mind, Unity's story does seem promising, now that I think about it.

It seems like the AC:2 we should have gotten.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 12:48 AM
AC I is an AWESOME story with an even more amazing character arc but the beginning was too slow.

Everything is too slow in AC1, as much as I like it.

I don't think you've seen it (you've been away from the forums for a while it felt), but I've made an example of how a few lines from ACIV death speech would look like had they been in AC1.


Though, I think AC1 white rooms are the most stylish, but they're also over-abundantly long.
Like the exchange of phrases from ACIV:
- You mistake my motives old man, I'm doing this just for a bit of coin.
- As was I lad, as was I.
(which is aweseome, btw http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/biggrin.png )

In AC1 would look like something:
- You mistake my motives, old man.
- Why, aren't you an Assassin devoted to protecting people based on your precious philosophy?
- I couldn't give a toss about that.
- Then why do you do this?
- A bit of coin, really.
- Then you and I are not so different.
- I don't see myself working as a slaver.
- Do you think I have a personal vendetta against those people? I was in it for coin, just like you.

I love some of AC1 lines, but, damn. No pacing in dialogue whatsoever.

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 12:52 AM
Not so sure about Unity, though. It's screams another AC:2/B.


Amen...

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 12:52 AM
AC had someone going but AC:2 and AC:B butchered it...

LOL. No.

;)

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 12:55 AM
Everything is too slow in AC1, as much as I like it.

I don't think you've seen it (you've been away from the forums for a while it felt), but I've made an example of how a few lines from ACIV death speech would look like had they been in AC1.



I love some of AC1 lines, but, damn. No pacing in dialogue whatsoever.
For realisies? I'm gonna stalk your posts then. I'll find it. thanks for telling me. I think Corey sometimes got lost in writing those dialogues and then someone told him about it so he became so paranoid and we got the trash dialogues in AC II.

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 12:59 AM
Everything is too slow in AC1, as much as I like it.

I don't think you've seen it (you've been away from the forums for a while it felt), but I've made an example of how a few lines from ACIV death speech would look like had they been in AC1.



I love some of AC1 lines, but, damn. No pacing in dialogue whatsoever.

LOL I loved that, could you link to your post with more examples?

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 12:59 AM
For realisies? I'm gonna stalk your posts then. I'll find it. thanks for telling me. I think Corey sometimes got lost in writing those dialogues and then someone told him about it so he became so paranoid and we got the trash dialogues in AC II.

No need to stalk, I quoted it for you in the post, that's the example :p :D I didn't have more, though I can certainly make some :D

I wouldn't say ACII has got trash dialogues (it does have trash Templars and trash white room speeches, with the exception of Savanarola/Savanarola Lieutanaints, which manage to be more deep and ambiguous than any of the Templars in the whole game and have so little screentime and just a few lines in white rooms), but I can certainly say that I'm not a fan of its voice acting anymore.

ze_topazio
11-06-2014, 01:04 AM
I have no problem with AC1 lengthy dialogs, I'm a Metal Gear fan after all.

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 01:05 AM
For realisies? I'm gonna stalk your posts then. I'll find it. thanks for telling me. I think Corey sometimes got lost in writing those dialogues and then someone told him about it so he became so paranoid and we got the trash dialogues in AC II.

Having replayed AC:1 a few hours ago, the white corridors were definitely a little too long, and awfully pretentious. It kind of makes sense as to what happened with AC:2, excluding the drastically the dumb down dialogues. AC:3's became that perfect balance.


LOL. No.

;)

I'll take that as sarcasm. :)

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 01:05 AM
No need to stalk, I quoted it for you in the post, that's the example :p :D I didn't have more, though I can certainly make some :D
Oh wow, i thought you were replying to Fatal. I'm dumb, thank you, man. But wow, I actually agree. That's why I really thought AC IV was the best in its structure and balance. it's not overblown and it's not too little and it takes all of that and balances it well.


I wouldn't say ACII has got trash dialogues (it does have trash Templars and trash white room speeches, with the exception of Savanarola/Savanarola Lieutanaints, which manage to be more deep and ambiguous than any of the Templars in the whole game and have so little screentime and just a few lines in white rooms), but I can certainly say that I'm not a fan of its voice acting anymore.
Yes yes, i meant trash death speeches, my bad. The dialogue in AC II is actually good but yes, the voice acting is atrocious. especially Teodora "fortoonaitly for you. I have an ideya" in the most robotic tone possible.

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 01:07 AM
I have no problem with AC1 lengthy dialogs, I'm a Metal Gear fan after all.

I'm with you on this one. I honestly always made a bag of popcorn before playing MSG4 because I know I'd waste more time seeng cutscenes than actually playing :P

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 01:07 AM
Here's one of my favorite AC4 quotes AC1-ified.
"Had the world been not so focused on the material pleasures and the fleeting sight of riches, we could be standing on a pedestal among the common folk."

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 01:08 AM
Here's one of my favorite AC4 quotes AC1-ified.
"Had the world been not so focused on the material pleasures and the fleeting sight of riches, we could be standing on a pedestal among the common folk."

I'm crying here. Damn you really need to make more of those.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 01:12 AM
I'm crying here. Damn you really need to make more of those.

Give me a line or a few from a dialogue that you like and I'll AC1-ify them :D

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 01:14 AM
Give me a line or a few from a dialogue that you like and I'll AC1-ify them :D

I'm just about to leave so I can't really think of a good one, but what about the hook blade? It has the hook, and the blade.
Or if that's too small, what about the ezio trade mark one:
"When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it. And I had love, but I did not feel it. Many decades would pass before I understood the meaning of all three. And now, the twilight of my life, this understanding has passed into contentment."

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 01:15 AM
I'll take that as sarcasm. http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/smile.png

Well, while the poll won't tell us which of us is right, it will tell us which of us has the more popular view. Even though AC4 was a good game, and it's fresh in people's memories, I think enough people will remember how good AC2 was, so I'm pretty confident that it will end up getting the most votes. AC4 had some pacing issues, after all.

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 01:23 AM
Well, while the poll won't tell us which of us is right, it will tell us which of us has the more popular view. Even though AC4 was a good game, and it's fresh in people's memories, I think enough people will remember how good AC2 was, so I'm pretty confident that it will end up getting the most votes. AC4 had some pacing issues, after all.

AC:2 had pacing issues, not AC:IV.

Actually, the bigger difference would be the fillers, which AC:2 suffered from.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 01:27 AM
I'm just about to leave so I can't really think of a good one, but what about the hook blade? It has the hook, and the blade.
Or if that's too small, what about the ezio trade mark one:
"When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it. And I had love, but I did not feel it. Many decades would pass before I understood the meaning of all three. And now, the twilight of my life, this understanding has passed into contentment."

Well, the hookblade one is kinda AC1-ified already in the original, but I'll try. :p

"The Ottoman Assassins have devised a contraption that upgrades the hidden blade with a second part - the hook. So we call it the hookblade. Quite obviously because it consists of two parts - the hook and the blade. Look here, we can elegantly switch between one another."

"During the times of my youth back in Firenze, I could not fully appreciate everything that I had. It's strange to think after devoting my life to fighting for freedom of men that my younger self just couldn't see the liberty he had. And if only I would know then time is precious and should be treasured, I might have done something differently. Changed something. Would have been more grateful and thoughtful towards my loved ones. I was a fool to not feel the love that I once had. Only now at the twilight of my life, after many decades of fighting... now that I finally leave a peaceful life... I finally understand the meaning of all three treasures that I lost, but regained. And as I feel how my final grows near and I'm about to leave this world, that understanding has passed into contentment."



AC4 had some pacing issues, after all.

Eh. AC4 has mild pacing issues at worst, AC2 is a total mess starting around Sequence 9 and onward. :p
I have my opinion regarding AC2 pacing written down here. (http://stanislavcostiuc.com/2013/11/05/assassins-creed-ii-plot-pacing/)

rrebe
11-06-2014, 01:31 AM
For me,

1. AC4
2. AC3
3. AC1/AC2
4. ACR
5. ACB
6. ACL

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 01:31 AM
Lol he thinks polls are an end result that show when an opinion is "right"

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 01:43 AM
AC:2 had pacing issues, not AC:IV...

Says the guy whose join date was in late 2013, LOL.

Heck, I can't even be sure you've played AC3, let alone AC2. If you click on my name, you can still see posts I made back in 2007 regarding AC1. If you're such an expert on the series, where are yours?

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 01:47 AM
Says the guy whose join date was in late 2013, LOL.

Heck, I can't even be sure you've played AC3, let alone AC2.

Words cannot describe the stupidity and ignorance in this post.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 01:52 AM
Words cannot describe the stupidity and ignorance in this post.
Hey, you're the one who chose to engage with him. It's your fault.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 01:56 AM
Hey, you're the one who chose to engage with him. It's your fault.

I chose to engage with him and he didn't answer me with a silly comment :(

EDIT: For anybody interested, since I linked to my general AC2 plot pacing post, here's what I think is wrong with Sequence 9 in particular (http://stanislavcostiuc.com/2013/11/01/assassins-creed-ii-sequence-9/) and why it's a very poor sequence story-wise.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 01:59 AM
I chose to engage with him and he didn't answer me with a silly comment :(
You were lesser priority. You didnt give him a "lol no" in another thread. You weren't his target. It was Fatal. and now Fatal pays for it with such a silly comment that lowered the IQ of the whole country.

Locopells
11-06-2014, 02:03 AM
Ahem...

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 02:06 AM
You were lesser priority. You didnt give him a "lol no" in another thread. You weren't his target. It was Fatal. and now Fatal pays for it with such a silly comment that lowered the IQ of the whole country.

Ah, personal feud, I see.

On a fully serious note, I am very interested to hear what people who really like AC2 and its plot and pacing have to say about my overall criticisms of AC2 plot and of Sequence 9 in particular (can't get around writing that Sequence 10 post :/ ) but I never could actually get a conversation going with actual arguments and exchange of opinions, it was 'I disagree' at best and 'Well you're wrong everything's fine with AC2's plot' at worst.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 02:10 AM
Ah, personal feud, I see.

On a fully serious note, I am very interested to hear what people who really like AC2 and its plot and pacing have to say about my overall criticisms of AC2 plot and of Sequence 9 in particular (can't get around writing that Sequence 10 post :/ ) but I never could actually get a conversation going with actual arguments and exchange of opinions, it was 'I disagree' at best and 'Well you're wrong everything's fine with AC2's plot' at worst.
You can most likely go at it with Sixkeys, Seesh, Megas, Rhino and Sushi if you haven't already. you'll have pretty good conversations with them. I don't know about Pr0m, though... I'd love to discuss sequence 10 too some time yeah


Ahem...
*spits* I joke I joke, i love you.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 02:13 AM
You can most likely go at it with Sixkeys, Seesh, Megas, Rhino and Sushi if you haven't already. you'll have pretty good conversations with them.

But they're never around during an active AC2 discussion :p At least when I'm around an active AC2 discussion.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 02:19 AM
But they're never around during an active AC2 discussion :p At least when I'm around an active AC2 discussion.
Well, if you were there early when I started flaunting fake AC II hatred, you'd have seen them a lot. They defended AC II a lot and we had some cool discussions. Guess you'll have just have to find the new generation of level headed AC II fans here....or just wait for the old gen to become active again.

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 02:23 AM
Well, the hookblade one is kinda AC1-ified already in the original, but I'll try. :p

"The Ottoman Assassins have devised a contraption that upgrades the hidden blade with a second part - the hook. So we call it the hookblade. Quite obviously because it consists of two parts - the hook and the blade. Look here, we can elegantly switch between one another."

"During the times of my youth back in Firenze, I could not fully appreciate everything that I had. It's strange to think after devoting my life to fighting for freedom of men that my younger self just couldn't see the liberty he had. And if only I would know then time is precious and should be treasured, I might have done something differently. Changed something. Would have been more grateful and thoughtful towards my loved ones. I was a fool to not feel the love that I once had. Only now at the twilight of my life, after many decades of fighting... now that I finally leave a peaceful life... I finally understand the meaning of all three treasures that I lost, but regained. And as I feel how my final grows near and I'm about to leave this world, that understanding has passed into contentment."




Eh. AC4 has mild pacing issues at worst, AC2 is a total mess starting around Sequence 9 and onward. :p
I have my opinion regarding AC2 pacing written down here. (http://stanislavcostiuc.com/2013/11/05/assassins-creed-ii-plot-pacing/)

Awesome, I don't even know what else to say :p

ze_topazio
11-06-2014, 02:23 AM
I would like to defend AC2, but I lack the patience for deep discussions.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 02:37 AM
Words cannot describe the stupidity and ignorance in this post.

Says the guy whose join date WAS IN LATE 2013.

Yeah, I thought you'd dodge the issue. Didn't think you'd go straight to character assassination though. Thought you might be a bit more honorable than that.

If you click on my name, you can still see posts I made back in 2007 regarding AC1. If you're such an expert on the series, where are yours?

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 02:40 AM
Says the guy whose join date WAS IN LATE 2013.

Yeah, I thought you'd dodge the issue. Didn't think you'd go straight to character assassination though. Thought you might be a bit more honorable than that.

If you click on my name, you can still see posts I made back in 2007 regarding AC1. If you're such an expert on the series, where are yours?

http://cf.chucklesnetwork.com/items/6/4/8/5/original/not-sure-if-hes-totally-serious-or-if-im-being-trolled.jpg

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 02:40 AM
Says the guy whose join date WAS IN LATE 2013.

Yeah, I thought you'd dodge the issue. Didn't think you'd go straight to character assassination though. Thought you might be a bit more honorable than that.

If you click on my name, you can still see posts I made back in 2007 regarding AC1. If you're such an expert on the series, where are yours?

Just because someone joined late, doesn't mean they can't know the same or even more than you. I also have been following the series since before AC1 was even released, but never bothered coming to the official forums. That doesn't mean anything about what I know or don't know of the franchise.

ze_topazio
11-06-2014, 02:42 AM
This is just a forum, how many hardcore fans out there never even once thought about coming here? join date or even simply being here mean nothing.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 02:44 AM
Just because someone joined late, doesn't mean they can't know the same or even more than you.


This is just a forum, how many hardcore fans out there never even once thought about coming here? join date or even simply being here mean nothing.

I would usually agree, but when someone joins right around when AC4 was released, and when he says that AC4 was better than AC2 when it's pretty well accepted among franchise fans that AC2 was the best in the series, and when he says that AC3 was better than AC2, yet everyone in the know pretty much agrees that AC3 was a lesser game than AC2, and when he says AC1 was better than AC2, yet AC1 basically got panned by critics and gamers alike to such an extent that it was questionable whether there would even be a sequel, I kinda get suspicious. I get the impression that this is a kid who likes to talk, but doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe he does, but it just doesn't look like it from where I'm standing.

I mean, okay, for the sake of argument, and even though I don't believe it for a second, I'll concede that AC4 might be equal to AC2. It's a good game. But AC1 and AC3? Give me a break! And I loved AC1, but it can't hold a candle to AC2. And AC3 was a joke.

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 02:50 AM
Too be fair, I stumbled across this place because I needed answers for something in the game.

I saw how cool and intelligent everyone's conversations were so I joined.

I've technically been a fan since 2012 but I joined in 2014.

While others that joined in 2012 probably were fans before, get it?

Since when is one's opinion right if they been around something longer than another? :rolleyes:

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 02:52 AM
Oh god, another AC:2 supremacist.

Alphacos007
11-06-2014, 02:52 AM
I would usually agree, but when someone joins right around when AC4 was released, and when he says that AC4 was better than AC2 when it's pretty well accepted among franchise fans that AC2 was the best in the series, and when he says AC1 was better than AC2, yet AC1 basically got panned by critics and gamers alike to such an extent that it was questionable whether there would even be a sequel, I kinda get suspicious. I get the impression that this is a kid who likes to talk, but doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe he does, but it just doesn't look like it from where I'm standing.

Well, people have different opinions. I have a friend who has been following the franchise with me ever since AC1 and he thinks Revelations is by far the best AC game yet. I don't blame Fatal-Feit if he prefers AC4 over AC2, it's just a matter of opinion.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 03:01 AM
Since when is one's opinion right if they been around something longer than another? http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/rolleyes.png

As I said previously, it's not just the forum join date.


Well, people have different opinions. I have a friend who has been following the franchise with me ever since AC1 and he thinks Revelations is by far the best AC game yet. I don't blame Fatal-Feit if he prefers AC4 over AC2, it's just a matter of opinion.

It is, but most people who have played through the whole series don't get the whole series pretty much butt-backwards in terms of what's good and what's bad. Sure, I guess it's possible, but when that happens, and when he says Ubisoft is "digging its own grave" - I mean, the global conglomerate UBISOFT, the third-largest independent game publisher in the world - a company that has basically become stronger and stronger and bigger and bigger over the last decade! I tend to think this is a kid who doesn't know poop from clay.

Sure, maybe I'm wrong. But he's not exactly filling me with confidence that he knows what he's talking about. My BS detector is off the fricken chart with this kid. That's all I'm saying.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 03:03 AM
Sounds like another guy who thought prevalence of opinion = fact. What was his name?

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 03:05 AM
As I said previously, it's not just the forum join date.

Then What?

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 03:07 AM
Sounds like another guy who thought prevalence of opinion = fact. What was his name?

Stock?

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 03:08 AM
Sounds like another guy who thought prevalence of opinion = fact. What was his name?

This guy?

http://rinothebouncer.com/rinothebouncer/RINOTHEBOUNCER.COM.html

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 03:09 AM
Stock?
Oooohh yes, that's him. Also, it seems that "lol no" comment burns hard lel.


This guy?

http://rinothebouncer.com/rinothebouncer/RINOTHEBOUNCER.COM.html
Nah, stock. Rhino's cool

VitoAuditore
11-06-2014, 03:09 AM
my choice was between ac2 and ac4. I replayed ac4 the most for the story, but ac2 was the first game that really submersed me and made me forget that I was gaming. so I voted for ac2

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 03:16 AM
It is, but most people who have played through the whole series don't get the whole series pretty much butt-backwards in terms of what's good and what's bad.

What's good and what's bad is subjective, mate.


Sure, I guess it's possible, but when that happens, and when he says Ubisoft is (to paraphrase - I can't remember exactly what he said) cutting its own throat or running itself into the ground - I mean, the global conglomerate UBISOFT that has basically become stronger and stronger and bigger and bigger over the last decade! I tend to think this is a kid who doesn't know poop from clay.

You missed the point of the discussion. It was Ubisoft's reputation on the internet.


Sure, maybe I'm wrong. But he's not exactly filling me with confidence that he knows what he's talking about. That's all I'm saying.

Like-wise.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-06-2014, 03:18 AM
Then What?

Read my recent posts here.

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 03:21 AM
This guy?

http://rinothebouncer.com/rinothebouncer/RINOTHEBOUNCER.COM.html

Rino's cool in my book... :)

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 03:25 AM
Rino's cool in my book... :)

Indeed, but I was referring to a recent discussion about the soundtrack and soul of the franchise. I forgot all about Stock, lmao. Speaking of which, the Connor debates have lessened since.

Don't tell me I jinxed it...

Dev_Anj
11-06-2014, 03:29 AM
It is, but most people who have played through the whole series don't get the whole series pretty much butt-backwards in terms of what's good and what's bad.


How so? There are a lot of people who liked AC:3 and AC:4, and a lot of people who like AC:1 more than AC:2. That's not even considering how many people bought AC:3 and AC:4 over AC:2.

Also, AC:2 is by no means a perfect game, there are many criticisms of it on the internet and by reviewers. I'll link one here: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14305


when he says Ubisoft is "digging its own grave" - I mean, the global conglomerate UBISOFT, the third-largest independent game publisher in the world - a company that has basically become stronger and stronger and bigger and bigger over the last decade!

You don't know how to put things in context now do you?

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 03:29 AM
Read my recent posts

Well just because they come after you, doesn't mean their opinion is inferior or any less important.

People who prefer AC4 over AC2/ACB have given deep and understandable reasons why they prefer it.

Same with someone like Rino who made a thread about his love for the Ezio games and such.

Soon there'll be people with 2015-2016 join dates, but is it always how long they've been a fan? No.

Will that mean my opinion is superior just because I was here before? No.


See my point?

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 03:37 AM
Indeed, but I was referring to a recent discussion about the soundtrack and soul of the franchise. I forgot all about Stock, lmao. Speaking of which, the Connor debates have lessened since.

Don't tell me I jinxed it...

Yes, they have. It was war during the summer. All that aniexty over Unity/Rogue?

Good times... :cool:

X_xWolverinEx_X
11-06-2014, 03:38 AM
AC4 the second time I played the story I fell in love with it and few it almost made me cry but only has telltales made me cry

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 03:46 AM
Well just because they come after you, doesn't mean their opinion is inferior or any less important.

People who prefer AC4 over AC2/ACB have given deep and understandable reasons why they prefer it.

Same with someone like Rino who made a thread about his love for the Ezio games and such.

Soon there'll be people with 2015-2016 join dates, but is it always how long they've been a fan? No.

Will that mean my opinion is superior just because I was here before? No.


See my point?

No, he won't. You joined in July, 2014. To him, you're clearly inferior, in both opinion and reasoning.


Yes, they have. It was war during the summer. All that aniexty over Unity/Rogue?

Good times... :cool:

It all blew over the moment Unity was hinted at. But then again, people were still arguing about it being a Connor sequel.

Namikaze_17
11-06-2014, 03:54 AM
No, he won't. You joined in July, 2014. To him, you're clearly inferior, in both opinion and reasoning.



It all blew over the moment Unity was hinted at. But then again, people were still arguing about it being a Connor sequel.


Well it's always good to try. ;)

And you're right..It was at that time. Never believed that Connor thing though.

JustPlainQuirky
11-06-2014, 04:13 AM
AC2 probably.

I don't remember. I have to replay it.

AC3 had its flaws.

ACIV's story felt ehh.

AC1's was too repetative.

Revelation's was pretty solid, albeit a bit too bombastic.

Brotherhood (aside from MD) was eeeeeeeh

Liberation was terrible.

So AC2. Not gonna vote tho until I replay it.

LoyalACFan
11-06-2014, 04:30 AM
You can most likely go at it with Sixkeys, Seesh, Megas, Rhino and Sushi if you haven't already. you'll have pretty good conversations with them. I don't know about Pr0m, though... I'd love to discuss sequence 10 too some time yeah


*spits* I joke I joke, i love you.

I volunteer, resident friendly AC2 advocate here :p

I do agree with Farlander that Sequence 9 was poorly-paced, and the implementation of the golden mask justification was contrived as all hell; however, including Carnevale was a must. It's kind of like the Declaration of Independence, as you mentioned on your blog; it was maybe handled stupidly, but it kind of had to be in there somewhere. Yes, some of the carnival games were goofy and reeked of filler (ribbon theft, anyone?) but I didn't have a problem with the concept of playing a few dumb games for a little breather from all the murdering.

As for the assassination mission itself, it would have been fine if, instead of winning a mask to allow him entry, Ezio just gets paraded into the party after he wins, so the final game and the assassination are rolled into one memory. Cut out the utter stupidity of the mask, and stealing it from Dante. Problem solved. Then there's the problem of why you couldn't just swim up to the ship from across the canal, but all you have to do is NOT tell us that Marco is going to be on the ship; make it a mystery where he's going to be, make us use Eagle Vision to spot him, and put guards in the party facing outward toward the canal, so approach from the water would be unwise. The boat with the fireworks was a cool setpiece, and while it did, regrettably, say flat-out you're supposed to use the gun (like we couldn't have figured that one out, since the entire sequence before that was basically a gun tutorial) there are three legitimate methods to completing it; the gunshot, lunging forward onto the boat like Rambo, and stealth-swimming around the back and killing him silently. It isn't as rigid as the dialogue suggests. Still, I can't deny that I love standing in a crowd and timing that perfect shot; "It's no easy thing to lose a Doge in the prime of his life, especially by the hand of an assassin who still hides in our mid-"BLAM! Linear, sure, not exactly breathtaking gameplay, but a few heavily scripted "I'm the coolest mofo in the world" moments aren't all that bad in a game that is otherwise fairly accommodating of player creativity. We ran into problems later in the series with ACR and AC3, in which these types of heavily scripted "badass" moments are too prevalent, but that's another discussion.

I think the problem was not simply Sequence 9 in isolation, it was that the whole Venice chapter dragged too long. Sequence 7 is okay, and it has an awesome assassination mission, so that one could stay. Sequence 8 is basically just hyping the flying machine, which I'll bring up in a moment, and Carlo Grimaldi was such a throwaway character and lame assassination mission that he could have easily been cut or reduced to a mere guard. Sequence 10 is, IMO, the real problem, and not just in terms of pacing. It really kind of sucks. Every mission is rigidly combat-based, and as we all pretty much agree, AC2's combat was the weakest in the series. It didn't really do anything for the story other than introduce Bartolomeo via three crappy escort missions.

So, how to fix it? First, axe Sequence 8. It's irrelevant, just put the flying machine/infiltration of San Marco/death of Mocenigo in the first mission of Sequence 9 (that way we also cut out the stupid eavesdropping mission where Ezio could have killed every remaining Templar on his list but doesn't!). Then Sequence 9 (hopefully including the changes I proposed above) has a concerted theme beyond the Carnevale; first mission the Doge dies, last mission Ezio assassinates his replacement. Then we're left with Sequence 10, which easily could have been combined with Sequence 11's ONE mission. Combine Bartolomeo's assault on the Arsenal with Ezio's infiltration of Rodrigo's meeting. I don't have a totally solid plan for this; maybe put Leonardo's meeting with Ezio (the one where he tells him about his findings concerning the Spaniard, the Piece of Eden, and Cyprus) at the beginning of this sequence instead of the following one, and then have Ezio meet with Antonio because he's looking for a way into the Arsenal so he can intercept the POE, not because some random thief beckons Ezio back to Antonio's HQ. Then the sequence progresses normally, though ideally less exclusively combat-focused; Ezio meets Bartolomeo, stages assault on Arsenal, blah blah blah. Silvio and Dante are then killed in the fight outside, then Ezio enters the Arsenal where he kills the Apple box carrier and follows his commander to Rodrigo in disguise.

Ureh
11-06-2014, 04:47 AM
I think all of the stories are on pretty equal footing. They all come in different flavours, shapes, and sizes... they have their pluses and minuses, I enjoyed every one of them for what they are. So I don't think any of them are better than the rest. I guess some people might see this as a sign of indecisiveness or a lack of loyalty to one game, but really I think they're all great stories that sorta build on each other. Could Unity take that #1 spot? Maybe... maybe not. We'll see.

Assassin_M
11-06-2014, 04:53 AM
I volunteer, resident friendly AC2 advocate here :p

I do agree with Farlander that Sequence 9 was poorly-paced, and the implementation of the golden mask justification was contrived as all hell; however, including Carnevale was a must. It's kind of like the Declaration of Independence, as you mentioned on your blog; it was maybe handled stupidly, but it kind of had to be in there somewhere. Yes, some of the carnival games were goofy and reeked of filler (ribbon theft, anyone?) but I didn't have a problem with the concept of playing a few dumb games for a little breather from all the murdering.

As for the assassination mission itself, it would have been fine if, instead of winning a mask to allow him entry, Ezio just gets paraded into the party after he wins, so the final game and the assassination are rolled into one memory. Cut out the utter stupidity of the mask, and stealing it from Dante. Problem solved. Then there's the problem of why you couldn't just swim up to the ship from across the canal, but all you have to do is NOT tell us that Marco is going to be on the ship; make it a mystery where he's going to be, make us use Eagle Vision to spot him, and put guards in the party facing outward toward the canal, so approach from the water would be unwise. The boat with the fireworks was a cool setpiece, and while it did, regrettably, say flat-out you're supposed to use the gun (like we couldn't have figured that one out, since the entire sequence before that was basically a gun tutorial) there are three legitimate methods to completing it; the gunshot, lunging forward onto the boat like Rambo, and stealth-swimming around the back and killing him silently. It isn't as rigid as the dialogue suggests. Still, I can't deny that I love standing in a crowd and timing that perfect shot; "It's no easy thing to lose a Doge in the prime of his life, especially by the hand of an assassin who still hides in our mid-"BLAM! Linear, sure, not exactly breathtaking gameplay, but a few heavily scripted "I'm the coolest mofo in the world" moments aren't all that bad in a game that is otherwise fairly accommodating of player creativity. We ran into problems later in the series with ACR and AC3, in which these types of heavily scripted "badass" moments are too prevalent, but that's another discussion.

I think the problem was not simply Sequence 9 in isolation, it was that the whole Venice chapter dragged too long. Sequence 7 is okay, and it has an awesome assassination mission, so that one could stay. Sequence 8 is basically just hyping the flying machine, which I'll bring up in a moment, and Carlo Grimaldi was such a throwaway character and lame assassination mission that he could have easily been cut or reduced to a mere guard. Sequence 10 is, IMO, the real problem, and not just in terms of pacing. It really kind of sucks. Every mission is rigidly combat-based, and as we all pretty much agree, AC2's combat was the weakest in the series. It didn't really do anything for the story other than introduce Bartolomeo via three crappy escort missions.

So, how to fix it? First, axe Sequence 8. It's irrelevant, just put the flying machine/infiltration of San Marco/death of Mocenigo in the first mission of Sequence 9 (that way we also cut out the stupid eavesdropping mission where Ezio could have killed every remaining Templar on his list but doesn't!). Then Sequence 9 (hopefully including the changes I proposed above) has a concerted theme beyond the Carnevale; first mission the Doge dies, last mission Ezio assassinates his replacement. Then we're left with Sequence 10, which easily could have been combined with Sequence 11's ONE mission. Combine Bartolomeo's assault on the Arsenal with Ezio's infiltration of Rodrigo's meeting. I don't have a totally solid plan for this; maybe put Leonardo's meeting with Ezio (the one where he tells him about his findings concerning the Spaniard, the Piece of Eden, and Cyprus) at the beginning of this sequence instead of the following one, and then have Ezio meet with Antonio because he's looking for a way into the Arsenal so he can intercept the POE, not because some random thief beckons Ezio back to Antonio's HQ. Then the sequence progresses normally, though ideally less exclusively combat-focused; Ezio meets Bartolomeo, stages assault on Arsenal, blah blah blah. Silvio and Dante are then killed in the fight outside, then Ezio enters the Arsenal where he kills the Apple box carrier and follows his commander to Rodrigo in disguise.
I was actually gonna put your name in that list but I forgot if you're a fan of AC II or not. Have fun, guiz. Very good post.

And Ureh, I don't see it as indecisiveness. Just love for a franchise and focusing more on the positives than the negatives. Good on ya.

LoyalACFan
11-06-2014, 04:57 AM
I was actually gonna put your name in that list but I forgot if you're a fan of AC II or not. Have fun, guiz. Very good post.

And Ureh, I don't see it as indecisiveness. Just love for a franchise and focusing more on the positives than the negatives. Good on ya.

Thanks :) Can't believe you forgot I liked AC2 though, you and I have debated it several times (usually it devolves into talking about AC3 :p)

Green_Reaper
11-06-2014, 05:04 AM
I don't know if I can pick a single game for "best story". They all had something I liked so this is somewhat difficult for me. I guess I enjoyed AC1's story about Altair trying to redeem himself, and learning a lot during the process. AC1 was also the introduction to the series lore, regarding what the "Creed" was about and who the Assassins and Templars were. Naturally, it was what drew me into the series in the first place, so if I had to pick , it'd be that game.

VestigialLlama4
11-06-2014, 05:43 AM
You can say that there are two AC Narratives - Epic Ambitious Stories and Novelistic Individual Stories, though there's a lot of overlap. Trying to judge best story is really measuring the aims and ambitions of the developers in different games.

EPIC NARRATIVES

These are the games where the creators really engage with history, put loads of detail into the past and feel a personal connection with the events.

1) In these terms the best story is Assassin's Creed II, for one it had an ambitious plot about putting across the entire Renaissance in a single game, integrating famous historical figures and notable and obscure events, making that into a satisfying whole and a plot and story that covers 20 years without dragging. So high ambition, great execution and fulfilling its potential. At the end of it, you come away loving the Renaissance and realizing its importance to human history.

2) The second game that succeeds on that level is Black Flag, because again it takes a chosen period, the Golden Age of Piracy and puts it across well, integrating famous and obscure events and totally satisfies the potential of the narrative. At the end of the game, even if it is Edward Kenway's story, you get a sense of why that period was so awesome, incredible and romantic.

3) 'Assassin's Creed III' fails because it doesn't really know what position to take with the American Revolution. They don't want to be too pro-British, nor too pro-American or too pro-Native American, don't tackle slavery, poor research neglected figures like the young Aaron Burr who would pretty much be the only founding father who could convincingly pass as an Assassin. Connor and Haytham and Achilles are great characters. You do feel some of the sweep of the American Revolution and the promise and betrayal of the New World, so its close but it fails.

NOVELISTIC NARRATIVES

These are the games, where its really not about history so much, its more about the character and the development. The best are,

1) Assassin's Creed 1 - This game really doesn't have the historical tourism element, its really about Altair, its about a time when the Assassins are a reality, where people question and live with the Creed on a daily basis, where the cities are really playgrounds for open-world stealth. So its really about Altair and what he learns from his targets and friends.

2) Assassin's Creed Revelations - The game about growing old, about regretting the past, and knowing when to quit, accepting that there will always be another battle after you are gone. The historical element is really underplayed, and Ezio is pretty much a tourist in Istanbul, so its all about sight-seeing, discovering a few tombs and finding love late in life. It's a modest game but perfect in its ambitions.

3) Brotherhood - I am in a total minority, but I think this game is a failure as a story, the Borgia are made into cartoons and Renaissance-Era fascists, the Rome we see is pretty much all about sight-seeing but no integration into the plot. In terms of gameplay, its pretty much systems and side-missions, so if thats your idea of an open-world game then fine. Ideally, there's less to do with actual history here and even then we don't meet Michelangelo, Raphael, we get Copernicus in the DLC for PS4.



With ROGUE and UNITY, I think they'll try and solve this period, but again it depends, like you can't make a game about the French Revolution and expect it to be satisfying if the Revolution is a side-mission or marginal to the plot.

pirate1802
11-06-2014, 06:53 AM
Predictable isn't necessarily bad. A story doesn't need to be riddled with plot twists for it to be considered groundbreaking. Some of the most celebrated literary works are as straight as arrows with no twists at all, while I've seen way too many stories which include forced twists just to surprise the reader and appear twisty! Reading stories in different languages since I was a five year old, I've come to the conclusion that a story is as good or bad as the person penning it. A good writer would present a predictable plot and rehashed themes like you've never seen. A bad writer would take the most brilliant ideas and muck it up. So, it's all in the presentation.

With that said, I'd say overall AC IV has, I think the best story. It is not the rehashed revenge theme for one, interesting characters, a very interesting protagonist who is not looking to do great deeds for a change. The story is well-presented as well, the side characters are interesting, and we have the trademark morally ambiguous Templars (though not as good as the ones in AC 1 and AC III) And since Edward is already a looting scumbag, the problem often present in many games of an (according to story) innocent person doing (as per gameplay) horrible things is not present, like it was present in for example Tomb Raider (another game I LOVE for its predictable yet well-told story) or AC III. The only problem I felt was what Farlander already said, the open world nature of the game hurt it a bit, and also as someone else said, the Pirate republic aspect probably needed to be emphasized just a little bit more. The story needed to spend more time there. I think it was by sequence six that it was Nassau was falling apart. I was like.. already? All that's done?

Had it not been for the shoddy execution I'd place AC III over AC IV on top. It had a brilliant premise, a unsettling cast of Templars and interesting protagonist. But they fudged it up in the execution. AC I had a great story as well, but told in a mechanical RPGish fashion (start mission-get cutscene-finish mission-get ending cutscene etc) which hurt the experience for me. I know it is a bad word these days, but I feel a little more cinematic approach would have helped AC1's execution more.

After that comes the three Ezio games. First is ACR, with its morally grey Templars, finally an interesting Ezio, and intriguing side characters. I always like stories where you can't easily slot the characters as good or bad. This game had side characters like that. (And also AC IV, both written by Darby. Coincidence?)
AC2 was "predictable but good." Cliched mustache-twirlers masquerading as Templars hurt it a lot though.

Aaaand then comes Brotherhood... the less said about it the better. Its story suits a saturday morning cartoon or a comicbook than an Assassins Creed game. Complete antithesis of everything I wan't in an AC story.


post

Very interesting way to look at it, I haven't thought of it before.


Give me a line or a few from a dialogue that you like and I'll AC1-ify them :D

Shut your gob or I'll fill it with shot!

How bout I cut your lips off and feed em to ya?

:D

*waits*

Fatal-Feit
11-06-2014, 07:41 AM
With that said, I'd say overall AC IV has, I think the best story. It is not the rehashed revenge theme for one, interesting characters, a very interesting protagonist who is not looking to do great deeds for a change. The story is well-presented as well, the side characters are interesting, and we have the trademark morally ambiguous Templars (though not as good as the ones in AC 1 and AC III) And since Edward is already a looting scumbag, the problem often present in many games of an (according to story) innocent person doing (as per gameplay) horrible things is not present, like it was present in for example Tomb Raider (another game I LOVE for its predictable yet well-told story) or AC III. The only problem I felt was what Farlander already said, the open world nature of the game hurt it a bit, and also as someone else said, the Pirate republic aspect probably needed to be emphasized just a little bit more. The story needed to spend more time there. I think it was by sequence six that it was Nassau was falling apart. I was like.. already? All that's done?

Had it not been for the shoddy execution I'd place AC III over AC IV on top. It had a brilliant premise, a unsettling cast of Templars and interesting protagonist. But they fudged it up in the execution. AC I had a great story as well, but told in a mechanical RPGish fashion (start mission-get cutscene-finish mission-get ending cutscene etc) which hurt the experience for me. I know it is a bad word these days, but I feel a little more cinematic approach would have helped AC1's execution more.

After that comes the three Ezio games. First is ACR, with its morally grey Templars, finally an interesting Ezio, and intriguing side characters. I always like stories where you can't easily slot the characters as good or bad. This game had side characters like that. (And also AC IV, both written by Darby. Coincidence?)
AC2 was "predictable but good." Cliched mustache-twirlers masquerading as Templars hurt it a lot though.

Aaaand then comes Brotherhood... the less said about it the better. Its story suits a saturday morning cartoon or a comicbook than an Assassins Creed game. Complete antithesis of everything I wan't in an AC story.

I completely agree, all the way to last detail (our list align). :) A lot of people tend to say Havana was underused, but IMO, Nassau was the most underused, as I felt nothing was of loss during its fall. The only impact it has on me, are the following tragedies that come after it.

Farlander1991
11-06-2014, 07:54 AM
I volunteer, resident friendly AC2 advocate here :p

I do agree with Farlander that Sequence 9 was poorly-paced, and the implementation of the golden mask justification was contrived as all hell; however, including Carnevale was a must. It's kind of like the Declaration of Independence, as you mentioned on your blog; it was maybe handled stupidly, but it kind of had to be in there somewhere. Yes, some of the carnival games were goofy and reeked of filler (ribbon theft, anyone?) but I didn't have a problem with the concept of playing a few dumb games for a little breather from all the murdering.

As for the assassination mission itself, it would have been fine if, instead of winning a mask to allow him entry, Ezio just gets paraded into the party after he wins, so the final game and the assassination are rolled into one memory. Cut out the utter stupidity of the mask, and stealing it from Dante. Problem solved. Then there's the problem of why you couldn't just swim up to the ship from across the canal, but all you have to do is NOT tell us that Marco is going to be on the ship; make it a mystery where he's going to be, make us use Eagle Vision to spot him, and put guards in the party facing outward toward the canal, so approach from the water would be unwise. The boat with the fireworks was a cool setpiece, and while it did, regrettably, say flat-out you're supposed to use the gun (like we couldn't have figured that one out, since the entire sequence before that was basically a gun tutorial) there are three legitimate methods to completing it; the gunshot, lunging forward onto the boat like Rambo, and stealth-swimming around the back and killing him silently. It isn't as rigid as the dialogue suggests. Still, I can't deny that I love standing in a crowd and timing that perfect shot; "It's no easy thing to lose a Doge in the prime of his life, especially by the hand of an assassin who still hides in our mid-"BLAM! Linear, sure, not exactly breathtaking gameplay, but a few heavily scripted "I'm the coolest mofo in the world" moments aren't all that bad in a game that is otherwise fairly accommodating of player creativity. We ran into problems later in the series with ACR and AC3, in which these types of heavily scripted "badass" moments are too prevalent, but that's another discussion.

I think the problem was not simply Sequence 9 in isolation, it was that the whole Venice chapter dragged too long. Sequence 7 is okay, and it has an awesome assassination mission, so that one could stay. Sequence 8 is basically just hyping the flying machine, which I'll bring up in a moment, and Carlo Grimaldi was such a throwaway character and lame assassination mission that he could have easily been cut or reduced to a mere guard. Sequence 10 is, IMO, the real problem, and not just in terms of pacing. It really kind of sucks. Every mission is rigidly combat-based, and as we all pretty much agree, AC2's combat was the weakest in the series. It didn't really do anything for the story other than introduce Bartolomeo via three crappy escort missions.

So, how to fix it? First, axe Sequence 8. It's irrelevant, just put the flying machine/infiltration of San Marco/death of Mocenigo in the first mission of Sequence 9 (that way we also cut out the stupid eavesdropping mission where Ezio could have killed every remaining Templar on his list but doesn't!). Then Sequence 9 (hopefully including the changes I proposed above) has a concerted theme beyond the Carnevale; first mission the Doge dies, last mission Ezio assassinates his replacement. Then we're left with Sequence 10, which easily could have been combined with Sequence 11's ONE mission. Combine Bartolomeo's assault on the Arsenal with Ezio's infiltration of Rodrigo's meeting. I don't have a totally solid plan for this; maybe put Leonardo's meeting with Ezio (the one where he tells him about his findings concerning the Spaniard, the Piece of Eden, and Cyprus) at the beginning of this sequence instead of the following one, and then have Ezio meet with Antonio because he's looking for a way into the Arsenal so he can intercept the POE, not because some random thief beckons Ezio back to Antonio's HQ. Then the sequence progresses normally, though ideally less exclusively combat-focused; Ezio meets Bartolomeo, stages assault on Arsenal, blah blah blah. Silvio and Dante are then killed in the fight outside, then Ezio enters the Arsenal where he kills the Apple box carrier and follows his commander to Rodrigo in disguise.

Have you read my plot pacing post, (http://stanislavcostiuc.com/2013/11/05/assassins-creed-ii-plot-pacing/) btw? It's just your solution is very similar to what I proposed (and some of the things you say are similar to what I say), and I was wondering what you'd think about mine :rolleyes:


Shut your gob or I'll fill it with shot!

How bout I cut your lips off and feed em to ya?

:D

*waits*

"Close and lock that irritating mouthhole of yours, or I'm going to make sure that it's filled with hundreds of bullets!"

"You wouldn't mind then, would you, if I took my trusty knife, cut out those fancy lips of yours, and watched as you were eating them yourself?"

Single lines are a bit hard, easier with small dialogues :rolleyes:


The story needed to spend more time there. I think it was by sequence six that it was Nassau was falling apart. I was like.. already? All that's done?

Yeah, one sequence between 5 and 6 that showed the Republic at its full height would do wonders. Like four mission, each one focusing on one or more of the prominent pirates (Blackbeard, Vane, Rackham and Hornigold) as they complete some sort of a plan together, ala the Pirate Heist trailer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPqPrTGI-D4)

On the other hand, that sequence should also be somehow connected with the main Observatory plot or its going to feel like filler. Sequences 6 and 7 run on the edge of the knife by not even mentioning Observatory once, but they make up for it due to Nassau being an important part of Edward's life and in grave danger.


I completely agree, all the way to last detail (our list align). :) A lot of people tend to say Havana was underused, but IMO, Nassau was the most underused, as I felt nothing was of loss during its fall. The only impact it has on me, are the following tragedies that come after it.

I've considered Nassau to be more of a home than Edward's home base. Yes, we didn't have a lot of full sequences there (it had pretty much almost as many missions as all other cities in the game, so it wasn't underused in comparison), but we did start almost every sequence there so it was like a home to return to after everything.

And visiting the tavern after Nassau fell was sad to me. There was practically nobody there, no music or anything. And I was like, damn. I liked that place :( It would certainly help to have secondary conversations there.

pirate1802
11-06-2014, 08:38 AM
I completely agree, all the way to last detail (our list align). :)
lol, just saw your list. It's identical. :p


A lot of people tend to say Havana was underused, but IMO, Nassau was the most underused

Yes because small as it was, Havana had a proper in and out, a place in the story and I wasn't expecting much from it. (Much of the story to be spent there I mean, given he's a freerolling pirate and all), so even though it's smaller than Nassau sections, I felt one sequence was enough. Plus the later parts when you return to it.


as I felt nothing was of loss during its fall. The only impact it has on me, are the following tragedies that come after it.

Same. Like Farlander I'd visit the tavern and find no singing girls, redcoats everywhere.. the fort being guarded.. everything was so militarized and less free. that's when the importance of the fall sink in.

ace3001
11-06-2014, 10:17 AM
Ah, personal feud, I see.

On a fully serious note, I am very interested to hear what people who really like AC2 and its plot and pacing have to say about my overall criticisms of AC2 plot and of Sequence 9 in particular (can't get around writing that Sequence 10 post :/ ) but I never could actually get a conversation going with actual arguments and exchange of opinions, it was 'I disagree' at best and 'Well you're wrong everything's fine with AC2's plot' at worst.
AC 2 is still my favourite AC game overall (with AC 4 following close behind) , but I agree with the pacing of sequence 9. I didn't remember what sequence carnevale was, but even before I clicked the link, I had a hunch that would be it.

Farlander1991
11-07-2014, 12:23 AM
(bump, still waiting on Loyal's reply to my question :D )

Speaking of AC4/AC2, one of the things that I like more in AC4 than in AC2, is how it deals with characters. And I mean how it structures the characters out throughout the plot. I've made a little matrix sheet where it's shown when characters are active, just appear somewhere (passive but visible) or are referenced in someway. I defined character as somebody with a name and a unique model, for consistency sake.

Here it is. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11n-VhIwjkfq-1SoNl6ClHEfoKFbboE96sUk1xlhQQsA/edit?usp=sharing)

You'll note how AC4 looks like it's spread out pretty evenly, while AC2 has huge gaps.

Part of that is that, of course, AC2 has just too many damn characters. One other thing is that there are characters that just lose relevance. Like the Pazzi conspirators, most of which aren't mentioned before we learn about them and nothing is remembered about them after we kill them. Which might not be necessarily a bad thing, but still....

Look at even some one-off character in AC4 like Commodore Chamberlaine, some time later after we kill him, they still remind us of him for a little bit. While AC2 has tons of problematic characters.
Paola who appears only for a little bit in Firenze, and La Volpe who appears only for another little bit in Firenze (they never intersect!) disappear and don't appear until the very end of the game. Rosa seems to become a prominent character, then disappears for a long while, then appears to wish Ezio a happy birthday then poof! Gone. And Ugo. Ugo's the weirdest guy, I think. There's a whole subplot in a sequence about gaining his trust, and after we do, he's not even heard about ever again.

Also, AC4 stops introducing new characters in the middle of the game. Yes, there's Rhona and Anto, but they have side-quests related to them that you'd most likely as a player would complete earlier (though not always, yes), and Edward's kids which are just for epilogue purposes. While AC2 just keeps introducing new characters until almost the end of the game.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-07-2014, 12:44 AM
I enjoyed all the different characters popping in and out in AC2 - it made me feel like the game was progressing at a good pace. In AC4, I felt many of the most charismatic characters were killed off too early, and the last part of the game seemed to drag because of all the traipsing around trying to find the First Civilization's maguffin.

Dev_Anj
11-07-2014, 01:27 AM
I enjoyed all the different characters popping in and out in AC2 - it made me feel like the game was progressing at a good pace.

The issue here being that it led to under developed, stereotypical characters.


the last part of the game seemed to drag because of all the traipsing around trying to find the First Civilization's maguffin.

This part applies to the Venice section of AC 2 for me, only replace "First Civilization MC Guffin" with "killing Templar conspirators". And even AC 2 ended with you having to go around everywhere to collect Codex pages and going through a linear section to get to Rodrigo. I don't see how it's that different in essence.

Fatal-Feit
11-07-2014, 01:54 AM
Speaking of AC4/AC2, one of the things that I like more in AC4 than in AC2, is how it deals with characters. And I mean how it structures the characters out throughout the plot. I've made a little matrix sheet where it's shown when characters are active, just appear somewhere (passive but visible) or are referenced in someway. I defined character as somebody with a name and a unique model, for consistency sake.

I also prefer how AC:4 handled the Assassin's Creed.

In AC:2, the Creed was only uttered once (as far as I know), during sequence 14(?) when Ezio joined the Brotherhood, which was the very, very near end with one target left, and became another backdrop for Ezio's tale of revenge all the way through AC:B, whereas Edward's story, despite being in a similar fashion with a bunch more mumble jumbo, did a fair job of basing the story around the Creed's integrity, itself.

Edward first discovered the Assassin's Creed through his adventure with Mary, was unaccepted by the Assassins for being brash and selfish, took it lightly and suffered the consequences, came back with a better understanding of its meaning and continued to redeem himself. There's a beginning, middle, and end.

With AC:2, I don't recall any attention to it, other than what I've mentioned. However, something that strikes me is the fact that Ezio knew the Creed prior to his joining, as evident by the fact that he was able to finish Mario(?)Machiavelli's lines during the ceremony. I never read the novels for the Ezio Trilogy so I may have missed some development with the Creed.

cawatrooper9
11-07-2014, 04:28 AM
It's extremely funny how AC4 is winning this. One of the game's most common complaints that I hear is its story (personally I liked the story, though I wouldn't say it's the best in the series).

EmbodyingSeven5
11-07-2014, 04:33 AM
The issue here being that it led to under developed, stereotypical characters.

Really? I didn't think they were that stereotypical. could you give me an example?
I like stereotypes done well:p

EmbodyingSeven5
11-07-2014, 04:38 AM
I also prefer how AC:4 handled the Assassin's Creed.

In AC:2, the Creed was only uttered once (as far as I know), during sequence 14(?) when Ezio joined the Brotherhood, which was the very, very near end with one target left, and became another backdrop for Ezio's tale of revenge all the way through AC:B, whereas Edward's story, despite being in a similar fashion with a bunch more mumble jumbo, did a fair job of basing the story around the Creed's integrity, itself.

Edward first discovered the Assassin's Creed through his adventure with Mary, was unaccepted by the Assassins for being brash and selfish, took it lightly and suffered the consequences, came back with a better understanding of its meaning and continued to redeem himself. There's a beginning, middle, and end.

With AC:2, I don't recall any attention to it, other than what I've mentioned. However, something that strikes me is the fact that Ezio knew the Creed prior to his joining, as evident by the fact that he was able to finish Mario(?)Machiavelli's lines during the ceremony. I never read the novels for the Ezio Trilogy so I may have missed some development with the Creed.
I wish ubisoft didn't advertise Edward as being a pirate trained by assassins. he wasn't. he was a pirate trained by pirates physically and by his own experiences mentally. I also think Edward spent a little bit too much time with other pirates and not enough time with the assassin / Templar conflict.
.

Fatal-Feit
11-07-2014, 05:09 AM
I wish ubisoft didn't advertise Edward as being a pirate trained by assassins.
Haha, same here. It's very misleading. It really should have been ''A Pirate, trained by Assassins, Templars, and Privateers.'' :p


he wasn't. he was a pirate trained by pirates physically and by his own experiences mentally.

You know, Edward is a confusing character. At one point he was trained by privateers (novel), another by pirates, another by Templars, and occasionally, Assassins.


I also think Edward spent a little bit too much time with other pirates and not enough time with the assassin / Templar conflict.
.

Personally, I don't think it's the time that matters, but the overall quality of the story and characters that does. Despite AC:IV's strange pirate direction, it have done a tremendous job of the Assassin VS Templar conflict, better than the majority of the games where they're at the center of the conflict. I'm looking at you, Ezio Trilogy. The Creed is prevalent, the Templar conflict are morally grey, the Assassins have a strong cast, and lead protagonist does a fine job of developing from a rogue into an Assassin.

I-Like-Pie45
11-07-2014, 05:12 AM
Unity is gon have the bestest story!

Dev_Anj
11-07-2014, 05:25 AM
I didn't think they were that stereotypical. could you give me an example?

Every single side character was one stereotype or the other, with little depth, and the only purpose they seemed to serve was to aid the assassins, which actually just meant aiding Ezio. The valiant, crude woman who's a thief, the foolhardy fighter who cusses a lot and is jovial, the good natured prostitute who also is a bit secretive, the secretive and cryptic thief... I could mention many more.

The problem wasn't that they were so thin character wise, the problem was that the writers tried to use these characters as people who guided Ezio and so should've had good impact on him and in short, on the player. But they just feel too shallow to bring up any reaction of any sort from me.

pirate1802
11-07-2014, 05:39 AM
I also think Edward spent a little bit too much time with other pirates and not enough time with the assassin / Templar conflict.

Actually if you look at it sequencewise he does spend considerable time. I just think that because he is not an assassin (yet) and doesnt get orders like "Go assassin, kill this templar!" that people think it's lacking. In sequence one itself he was rubbing his shoulders with templars and killing assassins. Most of his targets spread throughout the game were templars.

And also what Fatal said. Quality matters more than quantity. AC 4 is the only game imo, along with AC 1, that would give you the clearest idea of what is going on in the franchise, its central conflict, the both sides and what actually is meant by the creed. A lot of games utter "nothing is true, everything is permitted", but here you get a physical demonstration of what that means, what sacrifices it wants and dangers of misreading it.

But you're right.. "Pirate trained by assassins" was hella confusing. It gave a different picture; like an assassin using pirate excuse to cover his tracks. Like Adewale probably became later.


Every single side character was one stereotype or the other, with little depth, and the only purpose they seemed to serve was to aid the assassins, which actually just meant aiding Ezio. The valiant, crude woman who's a thief, the foolhardy fighter who cusses a lot and is jovial, the good natured prostitute who also is a bit secretive, the secretive and cryptic thief... I could mention many more.

These had potential man. Especially the good natured prostitute. When I read her bio, I thought her life and beliefs were fit enough to have a whole game based on, but alas. They were indeed just like props to help Ezio along, like.. to use a more modern example.. the side characters of Tomb Raider. Just there to help the protag.

Namikaze_17
11-07-2014, 05:40 AM
Every single side character was one stereotype or the other, with little depth, and the only purpose they seemed to serve was to aid the assassins, which actually just meant aiding Ezio. The valiant, crude woman who's a thief, the foolhardy fighter who cusses a lot and is jovial, the good natured prostitute who also is a bit secretive, the secretive and cryptic thief... I could mention many more.

The problem wasn't that they were so thin character wise, the problem was that the writers tried to use these characters as people who guided Ezio and so should've had good impact on him and in short, on the player. But they just feel too shallow to bring up any reaction of any sort from me.

It actually took me awhile to remember their names because of how uneventful they were.

Mario is one, but he's related to Ezio so he doesn't count.

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 07:01 AM
I also prefer how AC:4 handled the Assassin's Creed.

In AC:2, the Creed was only uttered once (as far as I know), during sequence 14(?) when Ezio joined the Brotherhood, which was the very, very near end with one target left, and became another backdrop for Ezio's tale of revenge all the way through AC:B, whereas Edward's story, despite being in a similar fashion with a bunch more mumble jumbo, did a fair job of basing the story around the Creed's integrity, itself.

Edward first discovered the Assassin's Creed through his adventure with Mary, was unaccepted by the Assassins for being brash and selfish, took it lightly and suffered the consequences, came back with a better understanding of its meaning and continued to redeem himself. There's a beginning, middle, and end.

With AC:2, I don't recall any attention to it, other than what I've mentioned. However, something that strikes me is the fact that Ezio knew the Creed prior to his joining, as evident by the fact that he was able to finish Mario(?)Machiavelli's lines during the ceremony. I never read the novels for the Ezio Trilogy so I may have missed some development with the Creed.

Personally, I favor subtlety. Repeating the six words each game and going on about the creed feels silly. In AC2, it made sense as a gradual realization that came out of ezio. In black flag its used as a cudgel to poke at Edward. The great resonant moment in black flag is the dream scene where Edward faces up to being a selfish idiot, a bad husband and a poor friend. The jackdaw fable is used there.

Dev_Anj
11-07-2014, 07:17 AM
In AC2, it made sense as a gradual realization that came out of ezio.

What great realization was there in that scene? It was basically most of the people you met coming forward and saying, "Right, we were Assassins all along, and we'll help you!" It's also ironic to talk about subtlety while talking about AC2's story, of all things. :p

Fatal-Feit
11-07-2014, 08:13 AM
Personally, I favor subtlety.

Strange. Subtlety is what I'd describe AC:IV, as the Assassin's Creed was nowhere as forced into our face as it was in AC:1, yet managed to keep itself an important part of Edward's development.

Disregarded is how I'd describe the Assassin's Creed in AC:2. It became a means of recruitment, almost like the writer(s) had to force it in at the last minute. The last sequence of the game could have had the exact same effect, whether or not the Creed was there.


Repeating the six words each game and going on about the creed feels silly. In AC2, it made sense as a gradual realization that came out of ezio.

It's not silly if it's used appropriately. I would describe AC:IV as the perfect example of the Creed used right. It's not shoved into our faces, but manages to retain the title of the franchise.

What feels silly is how AC:2 did it. It's like ''Oi, remember this was a thing?'' at the end.

The Creed did not affect Ezio's character or development, whatsoever. If you disagree, I'd love to hear your side of things.


In black flag its used as a cudgel to poke at Edward. The great resonant moment in black flag is the dream scene where Edward faces up to being a selfish idiot, a bad husband and a poor friend. The jackdaw fable is used there.

I disagree. The Creed, in the beginning, became Edward's excuse to reap chaos (everything is permitted --I like the sound of that / everything is permitted, isn't it?), but after Edward's revelations, he spoke to Ah Tabai about the Creed (if nothing is true, blah blah blah). It's proof of his development and coming to understand of the Assassin's Creed. I can't recall the Creed being a jab at poor Edward.

But I agree with rest. The Creed is part of Edward's development, not the be-all end-all it was in AC:1, which, again, subtlety.

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 08:33 AM
What great realization was there in that scene? It was basically most of the people you met coming forward and saying, "Right, we were Assassins all along, and we'll help you!" It's also ironic to talk about subtlety while talking about AC2's story, of all things. :p

Well in the scene before that, right before he meets Borgia in Venice, ezio talks to Rosa about how tired he is of revenge, endless plots and the likes and wants a higher purpose. He says that on his own with no prompting and no one to tell him that endless revenge is bad. He realizes that on his own. It makes his becoming an assassin feel emotional and also explains why he spares Rodrigo in the end. The point is the game has a revenge plot of vendettas but its about overcoming that in a rational way. Not because the bad guys have a sob story or that they are right, thats why Borgia being a caricature is important. Its easier to spare say, haytham in the scene than rodrigo.The fact that ezio decides he isn't worth it and the creed is about something else, he matures.

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 08:50 AM
Strange. Subtlety is what I'd describe AC:IV, as the Assassin's Creed was nowhere as forced into our face as it was in AC:1, yet managed to keep itself an important part of Edward's development.

In AC1, the assassins are a publicly known organization in their historical period. In that setting discussing the creed makes sense. Subtlety is useless. The point is in the later games the assassins and templars become historical metaphors so the creed has to make sense and apply in newer dimensions in a way that does justice to newer contexts. The renaissance was about backstabbing feuding families who somehow coexisted with the emergence of modernity, so ezio's evolution has to echo that. In ac3, Connor is a total outsider while Achilles is a lonely old man. The fact that they are racial outsiders emphasizes the failure of the creed since they won't have any real place or freedom for many years. So the creed isn't evenentioned in the game because the brotherhood is a lost cause.

In black flag, they decided for the sake of fanboys to sacrifice consistentcy and have Mayan Masyaf as a kind of underground cult rather thats outside Edward's story. Black flag is an excellent game but for me its a pirate game and unlike Darby or the otheres assassins I don't see a conflict between a pirate and an assassin.
Strange. Subtlety is what I'd describe AC:IV, as the Assassin's Creed was nowhere as forced into our face as it was in AC:1, yet managed to keep itself an important part of Edward's development.

In AC1, the assassins are a publicly known organization in their historical period. In that setting discussing the creed makes sense. Subtlety is useless. The point is in the later games the assassins and templars become historical metaphors so the creed has to make sense and apply in newer dimensions in a way that does justice to newer contexts. The renaissance was about backstabbing feuding families who somehow coexisted with the emergence of modernity, so ezio's evolution has to echo that. In ac3, Connor is a total outsider while Achilles is a lonely old man. The fact that they are racial outsiders emphasizes the failure of the creed since they won't have any real place or freedom for many years. So the creed isn't evenentioned in the game because the brotherhood is a lost cause.

In black flag, they decided for the sake of fanboys to sacrifice consistentcy and have Mayan Masyaf as a kind of underground cult rather thats outside Edward's story. Black flag is an excellent game but fore its a pirate game and unlike Darby or others I don't see a conflict between a pirate and an assassin. And because they saw a pirate as being separate they have it outside Edward's story.

Assassin_M
11-07-2014, 08:50 AM
Well in the scene before that, right before he meets Borgia in Venice, ezio talks to Rosa about how tired he is of revenge, endless plots and the likes and wants a higher purpose.
Lol, He doesn't say that haha.

Ureh
11-07-2014, 09:00 AM
Ezio:Is it? It's been over ten years since I watched my father (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Giovanni_Auditore_da_Firenze) and bro (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Federico_Auditore_da_Firenze)thers (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Petruccio_Auditore_da_Firenze) die. Ten years hunting the men responsible. I'm so close to the end now, but....no closer to understand what any of it was for.

Farlander1991
11-07-2014, 09:02 AM
I enjoyed all the different characters popping in and out in AC2 - it made me feel like the game was progressing at a good pace. In AC4, I felt many of the most charismatic characters were killed off too early, and the last part of the game seemed to drag because of all the traipsing around trying to find the First Civilization's maguffin.

Well, as you can see by the chart I've made, ACIV never has moments when there's too few characters to play around with at once :p You can argue that those that are left are not as charismatic, sure, but nobody just disappears into obscurity like plenty of people do in AC2. I've already named them. Rosa. There's a character arc of befriending her with absolutely no payoff or resolution. She just disappears. Ugo, same. He is there for a sequence and we need to earn his trust, only for him to never appear or mention again. Paola is also used for a sequence and is not even mentioned when we get back to Florence (it would make sense that she would lead Ezio to La Volpe, not Leonardo... who seems to be knowing most of the Assassins before Ezio does? O_o )

And if we speak dragging, AC2 has 4 sequences in a row (ever since we confront Borgia and take the Apple from him) where the MacGuffin just changes hands from one side to another and the whole plot is about keeping it in one place :p


The fact that ezio decides he isn't worth it and the creed is about something else, he matures.

And then ACB smacks him in the face how immature his decision was. :p Ending of AC2 is really weird. Because by that moment, he is above revenge, he goes to kill Borgia because the dude's a Templar Grandmaster that needs to be dealt with (and forbidden from getting into the Vault). But then when he gets to him, he's not above revenge, so 'Requiescat in pace you bastard!' But then when they fight, he's above revenge as killing the guy won't bring the family back, but suddenly he forgot the Assassin duties/responsibilities that were his ****ing intentions in the first place. And the problem is not the fact that Ezio spares him per se, but that the story can't decide how his progression actually ends. It looks especially weird in context of my favourite scene from the game - speech at Bonfire of the Vanities.

AC4 mentions the Creed just like in two sections. When Edward learns of it in Sequence 4, and when Edward talks about it with Ah Tabai. The game doesn't shove it in our faces all the time, and is used as a crudgel to beat Edward with only, well, in Sequence 4. The game is very subtle about how it goes with character progression. Yes, it's got a 'huge realization moment' (in the form of Delirium) but so did AC2 with the speech at Bonfire, and it's not a bad thing, it's something to accentuate the development that happened.

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 09:37 AM
And then ACB smacks him in the face how immature his decision was. Ending of AC2 is really weird.

Well I think brotherhood is a failure as a story. I think the annualization and multiplayer which started there made the series into a serial plot rather than the completeness of the first two.

But even in brotherhood the point is as ezio tells Machiavelli killing rodrigo wouldn't change anything. Its Cesare who ordered that attack. Rodrigo actually wanted to retire. And ezio only hunts down Cesare in Spain because the apple shows him a vision. His real focus is to build an organization that will outlast him.

Assassin_M
11-07-2014, 09:44 AM
But even in brotherhood the point is as ezio tells Machiavelli killing rodrigo wouldn't change anything. Its Cesare who ordered that attack. Rodrigo actually wanted to retire. And ezio only hunts down Cesare in Spain because the apple shows him a vision. His real focus is to build an organization that will outlast him.
Ezio was wrong. Cesare controlled the Papal armies. he only controlled them because Rodrigo was his father and pope. Had Ezio killed Rodrigo, Cesare would have no access to ANY of that. Cesare himself played along (mostly) with Rodrigo and the Vatican because he knew the pope was the main source of power. Cesare's funding was directly from Rodrigo and the Vatican.
And no, Rodrigo did not want to retire. If you'v played the faction missions, you'd see how Rodrigo actually wanted to kill Ezio in Rome. He was gathering information from his ambassadors to try and smoke Ezio out. He was also active in the affairs of the Spanish by influencing their ambassadors as well. He also tried to tell Cesare of Ezio's presence in Rome to fill it with troops. Rodrigo was still very much active.

Ezio made the same decision again when he spared Michelletto. He was the one who got Cesare to escape. ****ing Ezio.

Fatal-Feit
11-07-2014, 09:48 AM
The point is in the later games the assassins and templars become historical metaphors so the creed has to make sense and apply in newer dimensions in a way that does justice to newer contexts.

The Renaissance did no justice for the Creed. As said, it wasn't subtle, but disregarded.


but fore its a pirate game

A pirate game that retains the name ''Assassin's Creed'', better than most of its predecessors.


and unlike Darby or others I don't see a conflict between a pirate and an assassin.

Really? Did ''The great resonant moment in black flag is the dream scene where Edward faces up to being a selfish idiot, a bad husband and a poor friend.'' escape your thoughts? Being a pirate was the worse mistake he has done, and as he said to Ah Tabai, he wanted to make immense for all the damage.


And because they saw a pirate as being separate they have it outside Edward's story.

Main sequences 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 weren't about Edward's piracy?

pirate1802
11-07-2014, 09:50 AM
****ing Ezio.

haha I can feel that frustration :p


A pirate game that retains the name ''Assassin's Creed'', better than most of its predecessors.

*bows*

Farlander1991
11-07-2014, 09:56 AM
But even in brotherhood the point is as ezio tells Machiavelli killing rodrigo wouldn't change anything. Its Cesare who ordered that attack.

When Ezio was talking about Rodrigo's death not solving anything, he wasn't talking about Cesare's attack on Monterrigioni. He was talking how Rome would still remain the center of the Templar power. But Mario's death and destruction of Monterrigioni if Rodrigo died could've been avoided (or, in worst case, considerably delayed) as Cesare in particular wouldn't have the means to launch an attack.

VestigialLlama4
11-07-2014, 10:15 AM
Did ''The great resonant moment in black flag is the dream scene where Edward faces up to being a selfish idiot, a bad husband and a poor friend.'' escape your thoughts?

Yes. And it works because it comes out of his experience. The fact that the Nassau republic failed that he's grown older and piracy is not really a career to retire from. Its not because the pirate life was inherently bad. A man like him and Adewale too ( in freed cry he tells dieufort that he doesn't regret or feel bad about the old days. He just doesn't want to go back) had no other opportunity at the time. Tge fact that Edward sacrificed his marriage and friendships for it is tragic but similar to stuff people go through in life. Nor did James Kidd or Anne bonny either. See I don't disagree with the development at all I just think it comes more out of his personal experience and the game kind of hit people over the heads about the creed too much. It isn't all that necessary.


.The Renaissance did no justice for the Creed.
Yes they did. Ezio is the metaphor for the renaissance. He is about science, art and philosophy coming together and giving people a vision of a future. That's what the bonfire speech is all about.

The_Kiwi_
11-07-2014, 10:21 AM
Revelations #1
It had the best moments, and made me really sad...
So did Black Flag, but Alta´r is my favourite and seeing him again was phenomenal
AC2 was actually really tedious for me, and it felt like a bunch of separate stories put together
Brotherhood was just bad, too predictable and nothing too groundbreaking
AC1 had a good story, but was told badly
AC3 was very good, but it didn't have the emotional side that ACR/AC4 has

Fatal-Feit
11-07-2014, 10:31 AM
See I don't disagree with the development at all I just think it comes more out of his personal experience and the game kind of hit people over the heads about the creed too much. It isn't all that necessary.

Say what? I was adding onto Farlander's post, which wasn't about said Creed, that I *also* preferred how the Assassin's Creed was dealt in AC:IV over AC:2. You and someone else replied, so we discussed.

''I'' didn't make a thread, or a wall-of-text, just a reply. This whole Creed debacle is on you, not ''people''. :p


Yes they did. Ezio is the metaphor for the renaissance. He is about science, art and philosophy coming together and giving people a vision of a future. That's what the bonfire speech is all about.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the Assassin's Creed.

Farlander1991
11-07-2014, 10:36 AM
the game kind of hit people over the heads about the creed too much.

Can you please list, if not all, then most of the moments/places when that happens? Because I don't see ACIV hitting people over the heads about the creed too much.

(heck, a lot of people said that for them a big minus of AC4 narrative is that the creed is barely mentioned in comparison to most other AC games)

Pr0metheus 1962
11-07-2014, 11:29 AM
Unity is gon have the bestest story!

Yeah, we can tell that because of all the hype. Hype always makes games good.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-07-2014, 11:32 AM
Well in the scene before that, right before he meets Borgia in Venice, ezio talks to Rosa about how tired he is of revenge, endless plots and the likes and wants a higher purpose.


Lol, He doesn't say that haha.




Ezio:Is it? It's been over ten years since I watched my father (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Giovanni_Auditore_da_Firenze) and bro (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Federico_Auditore_da_Firenze)thers (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Petruccio_Auditore_da_Firenze) die. Ten years hunting the men responsible. I'm so close to the end now, but....no closer to understand what any of it was for.



OUCH! Pwned.

Farlander1991
11-07-2014, 11:39 AM
OUCH! Pwned.

M has played AC2 more than any of us here combined, he knows what Ezio says :p

And Ezio does indeed not talk about higher purpose, just about making sense of the reason his parent and brothers died and what's the point of the conspiracy he's stopping. The need for a higher purpose actually came later.

EDIT: Btw, if anybody's interested, a long time ago I wrote for an assignment how Ezio's path applies to the Hero's Journey paradigm (https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID1329907130/Keyrpcclseg68ro/GD20StasCostiuc_Storytelling_a1.docx). I actually, overall, quite like Ezio's progression over there even if I do think (after having it sink in for a long time as my opinion was quite different before I replayed the game a few times) that some places are not handled very well. ... and the plot is paced badly in the second half.... and there are too many damn useless characters.... and some other things. :p

Pr0metheus 1962
11-07-2014, 01:55 PM
M has played AC2 more than any of us here combined, he knows what Ezio says :p

Well, apparently not.


And Ezio does indeed not talk about higher purpose, just about making sense of the reason his parent and brothers died and what's the point of the conspiracy he's stopping...

But he does, right there in that quote. "Any of it" means a bit more than what you seem to think it means.

Maybe Assassin_M has played AC2 more than anyone (he certainly seems to have said a lot more than most), but that doesn't make him the arbiter of what AC2 is. Any idiot can play a lot of Assassin's Creed 2. I tend to think it advisable to take with a pinch of salt anything said with the contempt Assassin_M showed towards VestigialLlama4. If he wants to have a serious conversation and make serious points, then maybe he should behave seriously and with a little more respect for others.

Authority requires responsibility.

Farlander1991
11-07-2014, 02:03 PM
But he does, right there in that quote. "Any of it" means a bit more than what you seem to think it means.

Well, that's a matter of perspective. Certainly Ezio thinks what the hell he was doing with his life and what to do further, but higher purpose is arguable (though it also depends on what you define as higher purpose). Thinking about your life doesn't necessarily mean seeking a higher purpose.

I personally define higher purpose as something that transcends yourself, that removes you from being the center of your actions. Ezio wasn't at that point in the moment at the story (Rosa even points out how life has become better for people, something that Ezio didn't even notice and even kinda dismissed). Heck, one could argue that he never really was (even at the very end of AC2 - he didn't kill Rodrigo, it was still about Ezio, not about the higher purpose and goal of the Assassin Brotherhood). His character arc in Revelations is essentially about him not wanting to have any kind of higher purpose and retiring. And it's a character arc that suits somebody like Ezio. And there's nothing wrong about wanting to live your life without anything like that.


Maybe M has played AC2 more than anyone, but that doesn't make him the arbiter of what AC2 is

Yep. Though, the thing is, it doesn't make an arbiter neither him, nor you, nor Llama, nor me. ;)


If he wants to have a serious conversation and make serious points, he should behave seriously.

Says the person who replies with 'lol, no' and dismisses opinions of somebody based on a join date :p

oliacr
11-07-2014, 03:39 PM
ACR for sure.

Assassin_M
11-07-2014, 04:11 PM
EDIT: Btw, if anybody's interested, a long time ago I wrote for an assignment how Ezio's path applies to the Hero's Journey paradigm (https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID1329907130/Keyrpcclseg68ro/GD20StasCostiuc_Storytelling_a1.docx). I actually, overall, quite like Ezio's progression over there even if I do think (after having it sink in for a long time as my opinion was quite different before I replayed the game a few times) that some places are not handled very well. ... and the plot is paced badly in the second half.... and there are too many damn useless characters.... and some other things. :p
Loved reading this.

Dev_Anj
11-07-2014, 04:23 PM
Authority requires responsibility.

Look who's talking!


Well, that's a matter of perspective. Certainly Ezio thinks what the hell he was doing with his life and what to do further, but higher purpose is arguable (though it also depends on what you define as higher purpose). Thinking about your life doesn't necessarily mean seeking a higher purpose0.

Yup. There are many moments in my life where I've thought about what I'm doing, and questioned about why I'm doing it. That didn't give me any better or more noble purpose though, in the end I just decided to move on and accept my life as it was.


I personally define higher purpose as something that transcends yourself, that removes you from being the center of your actions. Ezio wasn't at that point in the moment at the story (Rosa even points out how life has become better for people, something that Ezio didn't even notice and even kinda dismissed). Heck, one could argue that he never really was (even at the very end of AC2 - he didn't kill Rodrigo, it was still about Ezio, not about the higher purpose and goal of the Assassin Brotherhood). His character arc in Revelations is essentially about him not wanting to have any kind of higher purpose and retiring. And it's a character arc that suits somebody like Ezio. And there's nothing wrong about wanting to live your life without anything like that.

Exactly! The whole game is essentially about Ezio and his transformation from a young, naive noble to a confident, wisened hero. The problem is that the writers kept focusing too much on glorifying Ezio as a hero and trying to set up great confrontations between him and his enemies, and this led to a lot of awkward plot contrivances that I couldn't look past.

cawatrooper9
11-07-2014, 04:48 PM
Honestly, I didn't mind ACII's story until the whole "you're the prophet" thing. I mean, from a narrative perspective, it was painfully obvious.

Namikaze_17
11-07-2014, 05:05 PM
Honestly, I didn't mind ACII's story until the whole "you're the prophet" thing. I mean, from a narrative perspective, it was painfully obvious.

Haha, this.

CRYPTO196
11-07-2014, 05:22 PM
For me the best story was AC3.I liked how we followed Connor trough his life,from childhood to becoming a Master Assassin.I like to look the stories of AC2,ACB and ACR as one,Ezio's Story.Ezio was a great character and every story featuring soaked me in and kept me interested until the end.BF's story was also really good but to me the least interesting one.I don't know why but I something was just missing.Maybe the fact that Edward isn't really an assassin.AC was a first game and it doesn't really seems fair to compare it to the others.At that time it was really good but now compared to other AC games it just feels empty.

Ureh
11-07-2014, 06:01 PM
OUCH! Pwned.

I was just posting the quote to refresh anyones memories, wasn't saying one person was right or wrong. I'm with Farlander1991 in that it could be interpreted in a few ways.

Fatal-Feit
11-08-2014, 01:45 AM
According to the poll so far, fan favorites are AC:IV, 2, and 3.

I'm not surprised by Brotherhood's popularity. It's indeed the worse of the franchise, but I wish there was more love for AC:R.

Namikaze_17
11-08-2014, 03:48 AM
Ugh! Brotherhood...still haven't fully finished it.

Whole game was screaming: "BORGIA!!!" so many times.

Not to mention I got bored with Rome real quick.

The_Kiwi_
11-08-2014, 05:16 AM
According to the poll so far, fan favorites are AC:IV, 2, and 3.

I'm not surprised by Brotherhood's popularity. It's indeed the worse of the franchise, but I wish there was more love for AC:R.

I give all my love to ACR :o

Farlander1991
11-10-2014, 09:49 PM
I've updated my character appearance sheet with AC3 stuff. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11n-VhIwjkfq-1SoNl6ClHEfoKFbboE96sUk1xlhQQsA/edit?usp=sharing)

Now there's a mess if I've ever seen one :p I mean, seriously. Compare AC4 to AC3. That's like... two different beasts.

Goxxi
11-11-2014, 06:40 PM
Most likely AC2 , but let's see :


AC 1 : Well the game did not have almost any introduction although was 1st game of the franchise which should get us into the series , story was decent but naration was not so good , practically entire plot U can describe in 1 or 2 sentences : Altair got targets from his mentor which he needs to assassinate and at the end of the storty It comes one big twist and I from the last target he finds out that there is one more Templar who is actually a main bad guy and his mentor Al Mualim is actually that bad guy.
Also game does not provide some emotional moments , also practically we were very indifferent what's gonna happen with Altair and his destiny untill the end of the game.

AC 2 : The game was one big 'wooooow" , perfect game in any sense , the story was so intrigant , so exciting , full of emotional moments , alot of conspiracies, plot twists, Those who came before, secret societies, banking cartels , Vatican, also from the glyphs we could find out alot of intrigant details about the story and entire AC universe.
Also great and much more intresting and charismatic protagonist then Altair.

AC B : Well for me is not a real sequel then just one big DLC , and as DLC is really good , fight with notorious Borgia family, siege of villa in Monteriggioni and those mission in castle were really epic and to remember , also modern day story was pretty intresting too.

AC R : Well this is also one giant DLC although a bit more look like a real sequel , since we got a new setting.
It's intresting and full of emotional moments (especially the end) , also they did with Altair those what they missed in AC1 , they finally made us to take an intrest about Altair and his destiny and in ACR the Altair's turned out to be more intresting and much deeper character then in AC1.
The story was really good but only what lacked in ACR were some real and markable antagonists.

AC 3 : The story was good , there were alot of twists , epic and emotional moments.......etc , but somehow my impression is that they did not utilize the full potential of the setting , we did not see some important events of American - British war , also It's turned out that some very important figures of that age like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin were just a secondary supporting characters and totally irrelevant for the story.

AC 4 : BF : I just finished AC4 : BF few days ago and despite to a fact that I read some negative comments and critics about the story I have to say that I really liked It.
Well maybe the story is bit simpler in this game and there are no that many conspiracies and plot twists like some previous sequels and maybe through the game we are getting impression that the story is bit slow and lack a bit of dynamics , but I think definitely story has It's own epic moments , also characters were memorable and perfectly balanced , everybody got enough space in game just as much they needed and everybody are important for the story , also Edward was brilliant character and characterisation of Edward and his development of his character were really great.
Also If we are hacking the computers in present time we will find out alot of intrigant and intresting thins and that provide a one new dimension to the story.
When U play the game maybe U do not have impression that story is so good but after U finish a game then U will realize how good , deep and emotional story was.

Methward923
11-11-2014, 08:41 PM
For me I'd say:

AC2- tbh this was the first Ac I plaed and it completely blew my mind, It was phenomenal, great characters, amazing protagonist, evil villain and a coherent story with a beginning, middle and end (of course left open for the sequels).
AC4- My second favorite ac game, great protagonist and a great story, not too predictable nor too complicated.

rest are AC3, ACBH and ACR (I loved it, it was unique as all the others, but felt rushed at some places and I expected more from an ac game)

haven't played Unity or Rogue yet, but from the looks of it I thik Rogue may come first for me, then Unity.