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El Turo
04-19-2004, 01:15 PM
So, I've noticed that when flying in coops that my wingmen are sometimes spotting enemy aircraft at much longer ranges than I. My question is.. are there graphic settings (DirectX vs. Open GL?) that make a difference as to how far away you see the little grey/black dots of enemy aircraft?

Running higher resolutions makes this easier to do or worse? Nvidia vs. ATI? Anisotropic, anti-aliasing, mip-mapping, or other game graphic settings.. ?

Anyone have some ideas on what causes the disparity?

I run at one notch lower than 1600x1200x32 and get great frames with everything on high/excellent with my ti4200 128mb card.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, s羹sse tr藕工me.

El Turo
04-19-2004, 01:15 PM
So, I've noticed that when flying in coops that my wingmen are sometimes spotting enemy aircraft at much longer ranges than I. My question is.. are there graphic settings (DirectX vs. Open GL?) that make a difference as to how far away you see the little grey/black dots of enemy aircraft?

Running higher resolutions makes this easier to do or worse? Nvidia vs. ATI? Anisotropic, anti-aliasing, mip-mapping, or other game graphic settings.. ?

Anyone have some ideas on what causes the disparity?

I run at one notch lower than 1600x1200x32 and get great frames with everything on high/excellent with my ti4200 128mb card.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, s羹sse tr藕工me.

Xnomad
04-19-2004, 03:04 PM
Many say that at 800x600 the dots are huge and easiest to see, but I tried that and although the dots were huge the graphics were so bad I almost puked on my 19" monitor. When I got close to a plane I couldn't tell if he was coming or going as the pixels were so large with large edges and gaps appearing, I didn't turn on AA to smooth things out though.

If you fly with your view zoomed out then dots are easier to spot than in normal or zoomed in view, sounds odd but it's true.

There is a point where dots just disappear into the gound clutter, and as far as I can tell this happens at most settings. Being a B&Zer it's annoying picking up a dot from high up and watching him slowly come towards you then as he gets closer he disappears.

I play at 1152 x 864 32 bit with 2x AA, as it looks nice and runs smoothly. To hell with seeing dots better if it means ugly graphics. When my 9800 pro comes tomorrow I'll bump the graphics up some more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

El Turo
04-19-2004, 05:51 PM
Interesting.


So if I kick it back to "wide view" I'll actually have BETTER long-range vision for picking up distant bogeys?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif


That's bizarre.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, s羹sse tr藕工me.

tttiger
04-19-2004, 06:50 PM
Yup, wide view helps you spot them further away. I can't explain it, either http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One of the benefits of flying in a squad on voice comms in a Coop is having multiple sets of eyes at work. We are constantly calling out contacts to each other and adding to each other's Situational Awareness.

Quite often it's the wingman who is closest to the bogey that will call it first because it renders for him. If I'm trailing, it may be a few seconds before it renders for me. That may explain, in part, why your wingman seems to see something you can't. It has nothing to do with settings; he's just closer and alert http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
04-19-2004, 08:03 PM
It is nothing short of "bass-ackwards" that wide view should afford you better looks at a 'dot' than medium or close in view.

Yet, we've suffered with it since the original IL-2.

Pretty as it looks, the graphics in this system are weak, because the MOST important factor in air combat, visibility, was not properly accounted for (unless you use icons, which, IMO, are a necessity if you're looking for realistic play).

In this system, altitude loses much of its advantage because you often have to dive down on an area to find lower-flying dots (thus blowing your advantage), and low flying planes get the full benefit of silhouetted dots against a blue sky. In the real event, most pilots understood the advantage of having a 5km to 6km perch unless they were on a strike mission that necessitated going lower, escorting bombers, or other tactical factors.

tsisqua
04-19-2004, 08:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When my 9800 pro comes tomorrow I'll bump the graphics up some more . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As was said to me:
"Welcome to the dark side"

Tsisqua

GvSAP_Dart
04-19-2004, 08:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In this system, altitude loses much of its advantage because you often have to dive down on an area to find lower-flying dots (thus blowing your advantage), and low flying planes get the full benefit of silhouetted dots against a blue sky. In the real event, most pilots understood the advantage of having a 5km to 6km perch unless they were on a strike mission that necessitated going lower, escorting bombers, or other tactical factors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this system, which is designed to portray the Eastern Front, and more specifically a ground attack aircraft (um, check the label), was built for altitudes of less than 3,500 meters - the operational altitude for the VVS.

Most missions "necessitated going lower" as escort of ground attack was primary on the offense, and often the Germans were attacking at relatively low level as well for Soviet defense.

Now, then, 9700pro and 17" monitor. 1024x768, I normally fly on wide view for the scan, gunsight zoom for shooting. For some reason I spot bad guys first in the squadron.

I really do think it's the wide view.

____________________________________
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LuftLuver
04-19-2004, 09:04 PM
Carguy is correct.

Another trick, is to keep from constantly panning around in search of bogeys. Pause at different times, hold your eyes still and wait for something to move in your field of vision. You are likely to miss the tiny dots if you are panning the same direction they happen to be moving.

JG7_Rall
04-19-2004, 09:09 PM
The reason its easier to spot bogeys from a farther back zoomed view is because the plane is x amount of pixels against however many pixels zoomed out view, while it's the same amount of pixels against zoomed in view which provides more detail for a smaller amount of space.(this meaning more pixels per inch than zoomed out view)

Do you wear glasses? I do, only for long ranges, but I found that it makes a hell of a difference even at my computer when playing IL2. If you do, try it, you might be surprised. Also, what LuftLover said works very well too. Scan the skies by dividing it mentally into "sectors" and pause at each one, looking for something to move. Do this at low, level, and high alts. and it'll help you spot bogeys well.

S!

Hutch

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2004, 12:35 PM
Dart, you know as well as I do that, although the low altitudes of the Eastern Front were great for the Soviet's purposes, the Germans still racked up huge numbers exploiting alt advantages.

And even Pokryshkin himself realized that the key to making the P-39 an effective weapon was doing exactly that.

So, although the sim is designed around low altitude fighting, there is no reason why altitude should be made to be a *disadvantage* for visibility, as it is in this system. *BOTH* methods of fighting should be effective, but we see (or don't see, as the case may be) that one is much more effective than the other, when history says otherwise.

That's just bad design, bad simulation and bad modeling, no matter how you look at it.

Snoop_Baron
04-20-2004, 12:47 PM
I use to run at the same res as you. And I had a realy hard time seeing the dots. It was so bad that I couldn't understand how so many people managed to play with no icons. The AI definetly picked up contacts way before I could see them.

Since then I've lowered my res to 1024x768 and I can see the dots much much easier and can spot them before the AI. It is still more difficult than I believe it would be in real life but atleast it is doable. I prefer flying with limited icons but with the lower res atleast no icons is atleast enjoyable.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
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HayateKid
04-20-2004, 12:49 PM
I thought visibility is controlled by icon settings and dot range.

What are you guys complaining about modeling? You have all the tools to make the dots appear farther away, and all the tools for visibility aids (icons).

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

Snoop_Baron
04-20-2004, 02:13 PM
The problem is that even on the same system using the same mp_dotrange comand (lets say dots at 14k) the visibility varries greatly from resolution to resolution. Dots that generaly should be visible are not even within the 14k boundary. That is the problem.

:FI:Snoop Baron
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El Turo
04-20-2004, 02:26 PM
I've started using the "wide" view for scanning/cruise and have noticed an appreciable difference in how far away I can spot aircraft.

I find that shooting and dogfighting from within the "wide" view also forces you to get closer to your target before firing which is also a good thing.

I've also noticed that running on high graphic settings makes it REAL tough to spot bandits flying low against ground clutter but if I back off the settings then it becomes magnitudes easier to pick up bandits against the same ground behind them.

As Stiglr suggests, this is one reason I think that limited icons are more realistic. I don't think you need range or maximum information displayed.. but just something to substitute for lack of stereoscopic and peripheral vision.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, s羹sse tr藕工me.

LEXX_Luthor
04-20-2004, 02:48 PM
Right on Stig. The dot sizes are a total disaster over the FB compared to what they could be, and this kinda stuff is *easy* to program.

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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-20-2004, 03:43 PM
I wouldn't say it's "easy" to program by any means. To some degree, all sims have this problem. But, it seems to my jaundiced eye that all the decisions were made with "eye candy" in mind, rather than VISIBILITY, and this factor is just TOO important to combat not to get right. I feel it's a question of misplaced priorities.

LEXX_Luthor
04-20-2004, 04:03 PM
Very easy to program. Aircraft "dots" can be multiple pixels depending on aircraft range and size until the *apparent* size (also depending on Zoom) warrents the aircraft grafix to appear. I do that in my personal spacecraft sim I am writing and it is a trivial process.

If FB actually uses grey colour for the single pixel dots, the colour would be ridiculously easy to change to black if the target is above or to a lighter colour if the target is below horizon. Winter maps may be different. Here it can get complicated but still very easy to program.

Also, aircraft "dot" sizes could be user configurable to change with resolution changes, or to prevent onwhine Cheating the program should be able to access the resolution (it can obviously) and change the "dot" sizes accordingly and automatically with no input from user--to prevent onwhine Cheaters from making quarter size dots in no~icon servers, although there are other ways to prevent this such as a max limit of pixel count in a dot (max pixel count can also be dependent on resolution).

Granted, larger pixel counts could help vision challenged simmers/simmerettes.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

El Turo
04-20-2004, 04:46 PM
I know it gets panned a lot, but WWIIOL's solution to this issue is one of the few things that I really do think is/was innovative about the sim.

Essentially, at maximum visual ranges, all you see is a dot. As you begin to get closer to the bogey (like under 3km) a very faint "ID" tag begins to fade in and it gets stronger and more visible the longer you maintain visual acquisition in your "field of view". If you break visual contact with the bogey the "visual tag" starts fading out again to represent this lack of active tracking.

As you get closer to your bogey/bandit the visual tag gets drawn a bit smaller to represent the lack of need of peripheral/stereoscopic vision to track the aircraft.

However, what this does is allow you to make up for the lack of stereoscopic vision when the bandit is against 2 dimensional ground clutter if you're doing a quick reversal down low or instead if he is flying underneath you at 1-2km while you're keeping him in visual acquisition the whole time.

It's really an interesting and innovative solution that does away with the "radar" effect of full-icons but fixes some of the deficiencies of no-icons.

They use full circles around the aircraft but it would work just as well I think if you used some other visual element that could fade in and out.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, s羹sse tr藕工me.