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View Full Version : It's almost cheating......



CaptainGelo
02-27-2004, 07:55 AM
OK....dont kill me for this.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



As I sure most of you know that one of the advantages of FW's, p47's and p51 is very VERY good elevator responce at high speeds..that maybe why I used them most of the time. But when I meet pilots u call "ACES" in their BF's I noticed that they didnt had problems with their elevators at high speed and was easyly able to follow p51 and other ones.....so I tryed many times to fly BF109-K4, but never was able to recover at high speed as some peaple I saw do....that maybe why I never realy used that plane.....I heard some1 talking about trimming etc, tryed it but it took to long time to trim..but for not so long time ago it hit me...SLIDER!!!!!!! yes now I know how they was able to do stuff they do, simply assigne elevator trim to slider and one of the bigges disadvantages of BF109 and all the other plane with that problem is gone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif....so I dont realy see reason why elevators getting heavy at all if u can just trim your plane with slider and just as good/fast if you didnt had heavy elevators.......I was doing some thinking about it and came to that it's "bit" like cheating ..
Could be nice if oleg removed option where u can assigne slider to elevator trim..

what do u think about it?


(sry for my English)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

CaptainGelo
02-27-2004, 07:55 AM
OK....dont kill me for this.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



As I sure most of you know that one of the advantages of FW's, p47's and p51 is very VERY good elevator responce at high speeds..that maybe why I used them most of the time. But when I meet pilots u call "ACES" in their BF's I noticed that they didnt had problems with their elevators at high speed and was easyly able to follow p51 and other ones.....so I tryed many times to fly BF109-K4, but never was able to recover at high speed as some peaple I saw do....that maybe why I never realy used that plane.....I heard some1 talking about trimming etc, tryed it but it took to long time to trim..but for not so long time ago it hit me...SLIDER!!!!!!! yes now I know how they was able to do stuff they do, simply assigne elevator trim to slider and one of the bigges disadvantages of BF109 and all the other plane with that problem is gone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif....so I dont realy see reason why elevators getting heavy at all if u can just trim your plane with slider and just as good/fast if you didnt had heavy elevators.......I was doing some thinking about it and came to that it's "bit" like cheating ..
Could be nice if oleg removed option where u can assigne slider to elevator trim..

what do u think about it?


(sry for my English)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

BaldieJr
02-27-2004, 08:20 AM
Continue flying with precision ace.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

F19_Ob
02-27-2004, 08:32 AM
well I have caught more than one p51 trying to out dive me, but I havent used anything else than combat flap, rudder and elevator. On the other hand I never let the dive be to steep or speed too high, so I often spiral after the bandit and wait for him to pull up. Normally I have enough speed and E advantage to catch him anyway.

Trim isnt at all nescessary to fly well in the 109. The maximum turn is very limited in time but it is often enough with one turn if your deflection skill is good.

bodaw
02-27-2004, 08:35 AM
Go ahead and assign trim to a slider, test it and see if it works. You'll see it isn't that simple. Previous patches have seriouly downgraded the trim response at all airspeeds.

Besides there's nothing cheating about using trim. I've been flying real aircrafts for over ten years now and first thing you do whenever you change the elevator position is to adjust the trim.

As long as one is aware of the Va and Vne speeds for a particular aircraft, using FULL TRIM shouldn't damage the airframe.

Read the interview with the Finnish ace where he pulled out of a dive around 850 kmh in a Bf109/G2. I couldn't find the link right now, but I'm sure somebody has it.

F19_Ob
02-27-2004, 08:40 AM
Actually trim can be used in dives.

The Finnish ace Ilmari Juutilainen describes an event in his book "Double fighter knight" (eng version).

He had entered a dive in too high speed and could not pull out of it, so he very slowly trimmed it up and recovered not far from ground.

Trim must be used very carefully in these situations or the plane will break up ( acording to Juutilainen).

CaptainGelo
02-27-2004, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ob_swe:
he very slowly trimmed it up and recovered

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


with trim(on slider) u can recover as good/fast as if you was flying at 300km/h and just puller you joystick back..

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

BpGemini
02-27-2004, 09:26 AM
Elevator trim on a slider to make bat-turns is a cheap exploit for guys who lack in real skill.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

BaldieJr
02-27-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BpGemini:
Elevator trim on a slider to make bat-turns is a cheap exploit for guys who lack in real skill.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like people who hide behind AAAim-bots.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

BpGemini
02-27-2004, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BpGemini:
Elevator trim on a slider to make bat-turns is a cheap exploit for guys who lack in real skill.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like people who hide behind AAAim-bots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So you agree it‚'s a cheap exploit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Btw, who‚'s hiding? Are you aware that the AAA is stationary? Also a lot of servers use AAA as a vulcher deterrent. You know you don‚'t HAVE to hover over someone‚'s base to get a kill, although I‚'m sure the Bat-turners and their like wouldn‚'t mind a cheap kill any way they could get it.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

WUAF_Badsight
02-27-2004, 11:53 AM
its only unfair to people without an extra throttle

using it in a DF is another thing to juggel

it & Pitch control need constant monitering

VW-IceFire
02-27-2004, 11:59 AM
I don't see the slider helping more than holding the up trim button for a while. It may not be as fast but it works the same way.

I use this to get myself out of a nasty dive...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

BfHeFwMe
02-27-2004, 12:01 PM
There's an even a bigger cheat, called pulling back your throttle before you yank cheat. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

BBB_Hyperion
02-27-2004, 12:14 PM
Rumors tell some use Skill, Team Cheat could never figure out how they work. BTW there are more "exploits" on the K4 as mentioned here .) At least 2 popular, wait 3 but that gives only little advantage.

Regards,
Hyperion

Sturmtrooper
02-27-2004, 12:55 PM
Speaking of trim on a slider ,....

Where's Ray Ban Jockey when you need him ?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/183/183586/pages/456377/untitled1.gif

BaldieJr
02-27-2004, 01:08 PM
I hate exploits.

I really hate the scroll-wheel cheat.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

JR_Greenhorn
02-27-2004, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I really hate the scroll-wheel cheat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is that the one where a guy puts his throttle on the scroll-wheel because his primitive joystick doesn't have any sliders?

BaldieJr
02-27-2004, 01:27 PM
No. The 'aces' know all about it though.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

JR_Greenhorn
02-27-2004, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
No. The 'aces' know all about it though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would explain why I'm clueless.

CaptainGelo
02-27-2004, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
its only unfair to people without an extra throttle

using it in a DF is another thing to juggel

it & Pitch control need constant monitering<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


well I got only one trottle slider on my Microsoft sidewinder precision 2, and there is only 8 buttons, but thx to the software I got like 15 commands on ithttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

Chadburn
02-27-2004, 02:25 PM
It may be useful to inject some facts into this thread to counter the knee-jerk reaction any time trim on a slider is mentioned

First, trim on a slider was considered an exploit when it meant going from full postive to full negative trim in the blink of an eye. Oleg has slowed down the input of trim, so even on a slider it simulates the time it would take a real pilot to turn the trim wheel. That means that putting trim on a wheel or a slider is actually more realistic than tapping a key several times. If you think putting trim on a slider is an exploit now, then so is putting throttle or prop pitch on a slider.

Secondly, using trim to pull out of high speed dives in 109s is recommended in original 109 manuals. As a matter of fact, 109's didn't actually have trim tabs. The entire stabilizer moved which was very effective at overcoming compression at high speed. Using this in the game isn't "almost cheating", it's an attempt to fly the 109 in an historically correct manner. The accounts of 109 pilots augering into the ground at high speed were usually due to an over-exited pilot diving in pursuit or to escape before adjusting his trim, and thus being unable to recover.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

CaptainGelo
02-27-2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadburn:
It may be useful to inject some facts into this thread to counter the knee-jerk reaction any time trim on a slider is mentioned

First, trim on a slider was considered an exploit when it meant going from full postive to full negative trim in the blink of an eye. Oleg has slowed down the input of trim, so even on a slider it simulates the time it would take a real pilot to turn the trim wheel. That means that putting trim on a wheel or a slider is actually more realistic than tapping a key several times. If you think putting trim on a slider is an exploit now, then so is putting throttle or prop pitch on a slider.

Secondly, using trim to pull out of high speed dives in 109s is recommended in original 109 manuals. As a matter of fact, 109's didn't actually have trim tabs. The entire stabilizer moved which was very effective at overcoming compression at high speed. Using this in the game isn't "almost cheating", it's an attempt to fly the 109 in an historically correct manner. The accounts of 109 pilots augering into the ground at high speed were usually due to an over-exited pilot diving in pursuit or to escape before adjusting his trim, and thus being unable to recover.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eh...okhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

Steaky_361st
02-27-2004, 04:59 PM
Hmmm trim on a slider....

Here RBJ RBJ RBJ...here boy... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

-----------------------------------------------
Steaks
Cpt 375thFS
"And you thought the meat last night was tough..."

AFJ_Locust
02-27-2004, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oleg86:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ob_swe:
he very slowly trimmed it up and recovered

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


with trim(on slider) u can recover as good/fast as if you was flying at 300km/h and just puller you joystick back..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ya then youll be blacked out not so effective

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-27-2004, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
No. The 'aces' know all about it though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

who are they http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

what do u do with your mouse wheel ?

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

RedDeth
02-27-2004, 06:47 PM
TRIM ON A SLIDER. has been fixed many patches ago. it is NOT instantaneous. theres a serious time delay deliberately built in now. if you try trimming while trying to pull out of a dive it will take effect AFTER you hit the ground. so have fun with trim on a slider all you want. but you will be hitting revive .

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

Tooz_69GIAP
02-27-2004, 06:49 PM
Guys, do us all a favour and stop complaining!!!!

If people were messing with the game code, or some crap, altering FMs or sometihng, then THAT is cheating, but doing something in the game that is perfectly ok to do, like assigning your trim to a slider, I can't for the life of me understand what your problem could possibly be with this!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif What do you say to these guys who use Track IR, or the guys with so many buttons on their controllers that they could write a novel on them??? These guys are at an "advantage" to others less fortunate, but they are not cheating, that is simply what they use, and how they prefer to fly. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If it bothers you so much, then map your trim to a slider, try it out, see if it really makes your performance improve. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Either way, no matter what equipment or what key settings/assignments you have set up, I bet I could still get a couple good shots on you with my 256mb RAM, keyboard and ‚£15 stick with only 4 buttons, one slider, and no fancy gadgets (i.e. rudder pedals, track ir, etc). I am a firm believer that it is the skill of the pilot, and how he/she handles their aircraft that will win a DF, not the a/c itself, or how key assignments are set up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Learn to fly, and learn to shoot people down, and be happy that you can do that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tooz

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg
Za Rodinu!

Snow_Wolf_
02-27-2004, 06:52 PM
Sounds like the old topic in CFS2 has move over to il-2 Fb now

Air_Mail
02-27-2004, 07:32 PM
one thing you have to realize is that by trimming your elevator in real life it does not increase its effectiveness. an elevator has a maximum travel and the trim tab moves opposite the elevator......i.e. if you trim the nose down the trim tab moves up and the airflow over the tab deflects the elevator down.

this is a very good example of why this is a GAME and not a simulator so you have to play it like a game and not like you are flying a real plane. the ability to turn tighter with trim is something that did not exist with real planes and there are many other system flaws with FB. which is not a bad thing because i fly this as a game......simulators are not really that much fun and if you have ever flown a real sim you know what im talking about.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_131_1074072105.jpg

Chadburn
02-27-2004, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Air_Mail:
one thing you have to realize is that by trimming your elevator in real life it does not increase its effectiveness. an elevator has a maximum travel and the trim tab moves opposite the elevator......i.e. if you trim the nose down the trim tab moves up and the airflow over the tab deflects the elevator down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trimming the 109 did increase the elevator effectiveness at high speed. As I said above, the 109 did not use trim tabs; the entire stabiliser moved and there are accounts of 109 pilots using the trim wheel to regain elevator effectiveness in a high-speed dive.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

Air_Mail
02-27-2004, 09:18 PM
right....the 109 was different in that it didnt use trim tabs but most other planes did.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_131_1074072105.jpg

Saburo_0
02-27-2004, 10:34 PM
1st. listen to Air Mail.
2nd I think the legitimate questons is this:
Does trim in FB work correctly in high speed dive recovery ?

I don:t know, to be honest, but it is certain;y something worth taking a look at. The distiction between trim tabs & the system used on the 109 is also very interesting. i wonder if FB models these seperately or uses a generic trim model ?

Recon_609IAP
02-27-2004, 10:40 PM
play offline then.

I personally would like like to see trim only go so far up and down. make it more instantanous just with less possible movement.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem
http://www.jarsofclay.com/

CaptainGelo
02-28-2004, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
TRIM ON A SLIDER. has been fixed many patches ago. it is NOT instantaneous. theres a serious time delay deliberately built in now. if you try trimming while trying to pull out of a dive it will take effect AFTER you hit the ground. so have fun with trim on a slider all you want. but you will be hitting revive .

http://www.fighterjocks.net home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u'r wrong, I now neve hit the ground, did happend be4, but now now, trim works realy fast and u can always trim be4 u dive...

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

TooCool_12f
02-28-2004, 04:48 AM
trimming allows you to reduce the force necessary to manouver the aircraft (IRL as in the game). If you trim your aircraft, you'll be able to apply more strength to your control surfaces (your strength combined with the pressure by the trim) and, as a result, you'll be able to manouver more violently.

At lower speeds, it won't make a lot of a difference because you're able to pull the stick all the way back even without trim (you can pull the tightest turn your controls allow) but on high speeds where you don't have sufficient force to pull the stick all the way back, trimming will increase you turn efficiency, IRL as in the game.

The thing in the game is that at any speed the action of the trim is added to your input, which only approximately simulates the trim effects, but again, since these effects vary depending on speed, you'd need a new bunch of algorythms to manage them at various speeds and altitudes, increasing the processor power needed and you'll have to take it from other parts, like FM, AI, DM or whatever else you want http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for "trimming before diving", it's rather smart, but it has nothing to do with the sliders, since you can do so with buttons too.

I guess we'll soon have people accusing other in words like:

"he cheats by using better skills than mine..."