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View Full Version : Full real cockpit frame bars...TA-152 TOO MUCH



nearmiss
02-20-2004, 01:43 PM
I was looking at the update for the TA-152 and my gosh those cockpit frame bars take up about 75% of the screen.

I think the 190 aircraft variations are practically visually unflyable now. I sure wish Oleg would look into some alternative methods to enhance visual ability, i.e., the transluscent frame bars as an alternative for better visual use of the sim.

I recall reading of actual war accounts where pilots flew with open cockpits to assure better visual views. In fact, as I recall reading, many Spit pilots during the BOB flew with the canopy open just for that reason.

I've read all the full real stuff, and I just don't buy it. I, along with a couple hundred other users can probably provide hundreds of reasons why full real doesn't apply to this sim now. Holding onto the big frame bars in the Virtual cockpits just seems overly stubborn on the part of 1C:Maddox.

I am looking into the IL2-FB simulation world through a port hole (19" Monitor). My cockpit is a desktop, swivel chair, joystick, mouse, keyboard, and headphones. I'm no more in a cockpit than a roller coaster. When I fly the sim I need enough instruments for positional awareness, and portions of a cockpit to provide situational awareness.

CLICK TO SEE THE TA-152 VIRTUAL COCKPIT (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/devupdate/2002/Ta152_2.jpg)

I hate the HUD (wonderwoman) views, but the cockpit frame bars in the German aircraft just make me claustrophobic. The great graphics objects, landscapes, aircraft are just wasted on anyone flying the virtual cockpits.

----------I know the frame bars were that big.....I won't argue that fact.

I also know that a pilot could move his head from side to side, at angles, forward and back, up and down to get good visual views.



------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by nearmiss on Fri February 20 2004 at 01:31 PM.]

nearmiss
02-20-2004, 01:43 PM
I was looking at the update for the TA-152 and my gosh those cockpit frame bars take up about 75% of the screen.

I think the 190 aircraft variations are practically visually unflyable now. I sure wish Oleg would look into some alternative methods to enhance visual ability, i.e., the transluscent frame bars as an alternative for better visual use of the sim.

I recall reading of actual war accounts where pilots flew with open cockpits to assure better visual views. In fact, as I recall reading, many Spit pilots during the BOB flew with the canopy open just for that reason.

I've read all the full real stuff, and I just don't buy it. I, along with a couple hundred other users can probably provide hundreds of reasons why full real doesn't apply to this sim now. Holding onto the big frame bars in the Virtual cockpits just seems overly stubborn on the part of 1C:Maddox.

I am looking into the IL2-FB simulation world through a port hole (19" Monitor). My cockpit is a desktop, swivel chair, joystick, mouse, keyboard, and headphones. I'm no more in a cockpit than a roller coaster. When I fly the sim I need enough instruments for positional awareness, and portions of a cockpit to provide situational awareness.

CLICK TO SEE THE TA-152 VIRTUAL COCKPIT (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/devupdate/2002/Ta152_2.jpg)

I hate the HUD (wonderwoman) views, but the cockpit frame bars in the German aircraft just make me claustrophobic. The great graphics objects, landscapes, aircraft are just wasted on anyone flying the virtual cockpits.

----------I know the frame bars were that big.....I won't argue that fact.

I also know that a pilot could move his head from side to side, at angles, forward and back, up and down to get good visual views.



------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by nearmiss on Fri February 20 2004 at 01:31 PM.]

CHDT
02-20-2004, 01:47 PM
Wouldn't it be simply possible to fix the virtual camera for the pilot's eyes in the 190's simply a little bit higher and more to the front? Without touching to the 3d modeling.

Because something is wrong now.

Cheers,

nearmiss
02-20-2004, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
Wouldn't it be simply possible to fix the virtual camera for the pilot's eyes in the 190's simply a little bit higher and more to the front? Without touching to the 3d modeling.

Because something is wrong now.

Cheers,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At this point, I think I'd appreciate just about any fix that would enhance views http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif for full real combat.

------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Omigod, don't even open up that can o' worms again.

We can't get the "reflected bar" blocking the gunsight fixed, so no chance in hell they'll make it so you can actually SEE out of a FW190.

This is about the only plane I know of in the entire set where the 90 degree zoomed out Wide view is useless; as you say, 50% of it is "blocked canopy brace". It's significantly worse than the 109 pit, which was known to be restrictive (and the 190 was supposed to be significantly better than in that regard).

I fly 190s at Normal view, whereas every other plane I can make use of the Wide view.

starfighter1
02-20-2004, 03:13 PM
hi,
sorry:.. can't find the words:
beside this corrupt old buggy and to low focused virtual camera view system in the running game..this cockpit forward view and cockpit struts frame design is more than wrong...!

it's a shame to the redesigners ... after all discussions and many real pics and informations about this FW-190 Cockpit view in real refurnished originally planes...

and a joke.. or bluff ?.. to design a little part of the cap which normally the pilot can see much more in real than at this design...as now in a gnomish virtual pilot view...

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

Recon_609IAP
02-20-2004, 04:09 PM
Great aircraft - horrible cockpit views.

Too bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Even as an Allied pilot, I feel your pain.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem
http://www.jarsofclay.com/

Hartmann.
02-20-2004, 05:29 PM
Atleast is pretty :P

ZG77_Nagual
02-20-2004, 05:52 PM
Good grief - more whining! - It's not even gunsight view - and go look at some of the photos from the ta. This is ridiculous. some kind of compulsion to B*&ch about the 190 series or something. The thing is just beautifully modeled.

ZG77_Nagual
02-20-2004, 05:59 PM
To prevent fogging, the windscreen was of a double-pane style with an 8mm thick outer pane and a 3mm inner pane with a 6mm gap between the two with Silicagel capsules, eight in all.

Might result in some thick framework there mateys.

ta152 inconclusive cockpt shots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (http://www.geocities.com/ta152uk/Restoration_1.html)

[This message was edited by ZG77_Nagual on Fri February 20 2004 at 05:10 PM.]

A.K.Davis
02-20-2004, 05:59 PM
That is the gunsight view. Notice how the gunsight is centered.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
02-20-2004, 06:11 PM
betcha not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ucanfly
02-20-2004, 06:39 PM
You must use the force and fire blind, Luke!! S-turn to your destination so that you can see (on average) where you are going. YOu should be able to predict your opponents flight path with your eyes closed. Look at Lindbergh and the Ryan NYTP (Spirit of St. Louis). He didn't need a forward view at all - LOL. Be thankful you can see out of the cockpit at all! All the literature about good vision over the nose in the FWs is all wrong be sure!

You obviously do not have the force if you are complaining.

ASH at S-MART
02-20-2004, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I sure wish Oleg would look into some alternative methods to enhance visual ability, i.e., the transluscent frame bars as an alternative for better visual use of the sim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The good news is Oleg said he was going to incorporate a HEAD LEAN feature into BoB.. Which will help a lot! But it wont fix all problems.. For example a head LEAN will not help out the P47 forward view with that cockpit bar right down the center. In real life that bar would not be a problem at all, in that your TWO eyes looking off in the distance would make that bar practaclly disappear!!

It would be nice if we got BOTH head lean and translucent cockpit frames.. But if we had to pick between just one I would pick translucent cockpit frames over head lean.. In that translucent cockpit frames would fix both problems!! In that it would simulate the effect you would get with BOTH head lean and TWO EYES!

The real UPSIDE to translucent frames is it would not require the current IL2 FB or future BoB cockpits to be re-drawn to account for head lean!

Also note that translucent cockpit frames are not the same as the so called wonder woman view with no cockpit frames or panels. translucent frames would be EXACT ALLY the same Shape, Size, and Color of the current cockpits where the only difference is you can sort of see though them.. Kind of like real dark sun glasses.. The effect would be that you could maintain sight of a bogie when it is close up.. But, due to the darkness of them, you would still not be able to see a bogie DOT at 3000m.. because it would blend in with the darkness of the translucent frame.. Thus it would still require you to have to fly realistically and check six.. i.e. you would still have to apply good SA and scan the sky.

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

MandMs
02-20-2004, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Nagual:
Good grief - more whining! - It's not even gunsight view - and go look at some of the photos from the ta. This is ridiculous. some kind of compulsion to B*&ch about the 190 series or something. The thing is just beautifully modeled.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure it is not the gunsight view? The reticle is centered very well.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For sure the cockpit is modelled very well, as are all the cockpits.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif To bad that the view is so totally crappily modelled, still.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It will be shown how crappy when the Spit comes, for the Fw had a better view over the nose than the Spit. This noted by British pilots, Eric Brown being one, iirc.


PS @ Ash_Smart

It would be nice if head lean was modelled if one was using padlock.


I eat the red ones last.

ZG77_Nagual
02-20-2004, 07:04 PM
This is a ta152 -however - the 190 does have a better forward view (and forward is what E.B. said I think) - by virtue of the front/side windows being cut down into the fusilage - allowing looking down along the cowl r and l. Mustang is even better this way.

MandMs
02-20-2004, 07:21 PM
Nagual, here are some cutaway profiles of the D-9, C-1 and H-1 and some other drawings.

http://www.aviacherteg.narod.ru/avia/Drawings/WWII/WWII_LWF/FW190/Fw190D_ML/FW190D_ML.htm



I eat the red ones last.

ZG77_Nagual
02-20-2004, 07:42 PM
Thanks M&M!

These look cool - that first one is not one I've seen before.

[This message was edited by ZG77_Nagual on Fri February 20 2004 at 06:52 PM.]

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 07:58 PM
The only part solution is for those with HOTUS controllers to map a gunsight view button off/on so when in a dog fight you can quickly go in and out of the gunsight to minimise the lack of gunsight/cockpit visability.
I find the bars are quite fine when not up against the gunsight in the FW's just really suck when up close to gunsight. I hope I am making sense with this post. The worst part is the crap cluttering the bottom of the gunsight which does in no way take into accout the nose down flying attitude of the FW series. Don't worry though, there were initial problems with the Spits gunsight being obscured by a bottom bar too. Not sure if any complaints lead to this being cleaned up but it should.

Best solution quick access to gunsight on/off and using the force (-:

ZG77_Nagual
02-20-2004, 08:04 PM
Exactly - the 190, more than any other plane - requires a pilot who is able to use the force http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (cockpit on of course)

ajafoofoo
02-20-2004, 11:22 PM
Actually RayBan (that forum goblin) put it best. 2 eyes reduce the percieved thickness.

Just like when you hold a finger in front of your nose and look past it. It doesn't obstruct your view at all.

Some kinda of 3d display in the far off future could kill this problem once and for all. Or Oleg could simulate stereo vision and make transparent edges on cockpit framing.

The head sway in BOB is a step in the right direction though.

clint-ruin
02-20-2004, 11:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ajafoofoo:
Some kinda of 3d display in the far off future could kill this problem once and for all. Or Oleg could simulate stereo vision and make transparent edges on cockpit framing.

The head sway in BOB is a step in the right direction though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For folks who have absolutely nothing better to spend their money on, "3d" displays utilising 2x LCDs, one of them transparent and intermeshed over the top of the other, have been developed. This might allow something along those lines. FB supports rendering different images to multiple displays so it's maaaybe possible to get it working on one of those. It'd make for a lovely demo at any rate :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

nearmiss
02-22-2004, 02:17 PM
Bump

-------------------- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BaldieJr
02-23-2004, 08:17 AM
I love it when people whine for some specific change, get it, and then whine about it.

They wanted the pilot head to be higher in the 190's so they could deflection-shoot. Oleg did it, and now the canopy frame, which is CLOSER to the pilots eyes, appears larger (AS IT SHOULD!). Still not good enough.

We aren't playing on a cluster of SGI's. Oleg can only do so much with the hardware available.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

MandMs
02-23-2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:


They wanted the pilot head to be higher in the 190's so they could deflection-shoot. Oleg did it, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did?????



I eat the red ones last.

BaldieJr
02-23-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandMs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:


They wanted the pilot head to be higher in the 190's so they could deflection-shoot. Oleg did it, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did?????



I eat the red ones last.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the 152 the pilot head is higher than in the 190. I wasn't meaning to say that the 190 has changed.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

ajafoofoo
02-23-2004, 10:25 AM
Thought Oleg said sometime ago that the ta had a better gunsight view. I don't think the improved ta gunsight is the result of complaints.

MandMs
02-23-2004, 10:47 AM
The Ta had the same cockpit as the Fw. In fact the same Revi, the 16B, was used in the Ta as in late model Fws. The mounting position did not change.

Why can't these 'more correct' changes be put into the Fws? Why does the Dora9 '45 and K-4 not have the same gunsight as the Ta152H? All three are '45 a/c.

Notice the size of the 'sighting' image now. Why has this changed?



I eat the red ones last.

Jippo01
02-23-2004, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandMs:

Notice the size of the 'sighting' image now. Why has this changed?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Because it seems to be finally fixed to correct size.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

MandMs
02-23-2004, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jippo01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandMs:

Notice the size of the 'sighting' image now. Why has this changed?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Because it seems to be finally fixed to correct size.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now we need it fixed in all the German a/c. has this been done?



I eat the red ones last.

Jippo01
02-23-2004, 11:22 AM
Dunno. Haven't been testing Aces pack.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

LuftKuhMist
02-23-2004, 12:19 PM
I don't blame a cockpit when I don't know how to fly a plane, do like me.

I make unbelievable carnages with the 190s despite the so called "unflyable cockpit".

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif

plumps_
02-23-2004, 03:16 PM
When I fly the 190 online I usually make an unbelievable carnage among my teammates. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There always seems to be one of them in the line of fire when I shoot blindly to get enough deflection...

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)