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View Full Version : Markings with no swastika/hakiristi?



XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:18 AM
Hello to everyone out there!
I've just had my first taste of air combat over the Gulf of Finland. Very good simulator, amazing detail and fantastic details on the aircraft.....but!
What is it with you people? All these accurate details on the planes, ships, tanks, terrain, weather and so on - and yet, there are no swastikas on the German planes and the roundels on the Finnish planes actually did not come into use before 1.april 1945 - before that, they used the Hakiristi; finnish for swastika, as their national markings, and with no connection what so ever to the national socialists of Germany. Is this another example of political correctness and nazi-scare?
TAJ

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:18 AM
Hello to everyone out there!
I've just had my first taste of air combat over the Gulf of Finland. Very good simulator, amazing detail and fantastic details on the aircraft.....but!
What is it with you people? All these accurate details on the planes, ships, tanks, terrain, weather and so on - and yet, there are no swastikas on the German planes and the roundels on the Finnish planes actually did not come into use before 1.april 1945 - before that, they used the Hakiristi; finnish for swastika, as their national markings, and with no connection what so ever to the national socialists of Germany. Is this another example of political correctness and nazi-scare?
TAJ

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:49 AM
http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=3

Here ya go, problem solved.


"Is this another example of political correctness and nazi-scare?"

No it's a result of Oleg not being able to change laws in all the countries that IL-2 is sold in. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<center>http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid61/pb537e82df1380cc1f9978ba454cd2915/fc341268.jpg <center>

Message Edited on 07/15/0307:51PM by Takegami

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:53 AM
are in the USA sold FB swatiskas?

u link dont works somehow

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:54 AM
forget it now it works /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 01:07 AM
Klopf!
Good explanation.....sounds stupid, though. I can buy books on nazism, adorned with swastikas on the cover. I can even buy model kits of WW2 planes, with swastikas included in the adhesive decals. Good, old fashioned pc-game Wolfenstein 3D contains tons of nazi flags, adorned with the Reichs national symbol - and loads of portraits of mr. Adolf. And, as I wrote, the Hakiristi of Finland had absolutely nothing to do with nazism, having been used for years, before being chosen as the symbol of national socialism.
Anyway, thanks for your reply.....the planes don't seem to mind the difference! ;-)
TAJ

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:46 AM
Download IL2 Stab3.0,... gives the ability to enable swastika's etc plus extra goodies like enabling gore etc on startup.

Download here...

http://www.il2center.com/technika/download01.htm#Stab


Cheers

Esq.

"Fightin' Kiwis"

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/n/nz_fighk.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:03 AM
if you are after historically accurate skins with correct national markings go to www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com) and download the ones that take your fantasy


the ones by hammerd are particularly good.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:40 AM
would you want to fly a plane with a swastika on it. Not me, and the Iron Cross has no political meaning. The German military uses it today.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:57 AM
sirmoldycheese wrote:
- would you want to fly a plane with a swastika on it.
- Not me, and the Iron Cross has no political
- meaning. The German military uses it today.
-


he may actually be wanting to jump in a P40 and shoot down planes with swastika's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 04:29 AM
Not only that, but if a player demands realism above all else and wants to see what it was like to fly a german plane, with correct appearance, well, the swastika would be part of that 'correctness'.


The symbol of the swastika means nothing politically to me in computer game. I know what it means, I know who used it and what they did. It's use in a PC sim should not be thought to imply a political meaning, but I can clearly see why it was avoided. The swastika was in fact an ancient symbol of good luck, long before the nazis hijacked it.


The stigma associated with the swastika is so immense that it is perhaps only appropriate that it is not officially available. But it's curious that the red star and the hinomaru are 'respectable' by comparison. To me, because of things like experimental surgery, the Death march, treatment of POWs as sub-human, Stalin's purges and executions, genocide against his own people, imprisonment of POWs long after WW2 was over, and his alliance with Germany even before WW2 started, they should be approaching the same level as symbols of tyranny and mass death. But as symbols of outright Evil go, I guess you could say that the swastika has the market cornered.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:54 AM
I wonder if the Site Owner (of www.il2center.com (http://www.il2center.com)) is aware that he's been hacked...?

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:02 AM
If there's a political reason why swastikas have been left out of this game, then I must say it's ridiculous. But bear in mind that in Germany, Swastikas in any form, books, films, games, anything actually, is strictly forbidden. I guess you have noticed that in lots of WW2 games there's a German version and an "international" version. And of course the infamous German Patch for German youth breaking the law by patching the games so that Swastikas and other forbidden symbols show up.

Perhaps thats the reason why they have left it out here too, so that they don't have to make two versions of the game.

My two cents...

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:10 AM
Jez Man! That was quite an intrusive piece of software. I currently have a swastika on my taskbar. I wanted to enable swastikas on German planes not on "My Computer"...!

*DELETE*

Isn't there any simpler way, like a little mod in a prefs file or something?

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:13 AM
If you are interested, Stab is now at Version 3.1 to support the upcoming FB Patch 1.1.

You can download from here: http://www.users.on.net/mjtm/IL-2/


Matt

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 09:51 AM
TAJ1964 wrote:
- Klopf!
- Good explanation.....sounds stupid, though. I can
- buy books on nazism, adorned with swastikas on the
- cover. I can even buy model kits of WW2 planes, with
- swastikas included in the adhesive decals.

Where can you get those model kits? The ones here in America all suck- no swastika! Not even one split in half!

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:27 AM
Hi Esquire 1, nice picture, what part of N.Z are you from?

Cheers kiwiflyer

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:43 PM
to WTE Galway:

Thanks - that was a good one! If you fly a plane with the Stars and Bars, playing as an American, why not fly a plane with the swastika and balkenkreutz, playing as a German?
Actually a minor detail, but it tends to be quite anoying...

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:47 PM
to VOL Jon:

I buy my model kits in hometown Kongens Lyngby, Denmark. That would be something like Kingston Heath for all you english speakers out there...

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:52 PM
to BBB462cid:

My words exactly! More people were killed in the name of the Red Banner and under the Red Star, than by the nazis. That doesn't seem to keep people from flying russian planes adorned with the Red Star. Anyway, thank you for your wise words /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:54 PM
to Esquire 1:

Thanks, mate! Oh, by the way; do they call kiwis mate...or is that just for aussies? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 05:56 PM
TAJ1964, I wouldn't exactly say that. In the end you should ban all markings. German, Soviet and American (remember Nagasaki and Hiroshima?) markings would be removed. This game is about a true historical period and the correct markings for each side should be present (perhaps as an option in case a person feels offended by it). Removing the markings is sort of "denying" history. I use Shturmovik stab 3, does exactly what it should. It's understandable that in the official version of the game the German markings were removed (only present in Russian version I believe), to avoid the game being banned or getting a higher rating.

"The swastika was in fact an ancient symbol of good luck, long before the nazis hijacked it." Actually AFAIK it's not exactly the swastika, but a horizontally mirrored symbol, which originates from somewhere in Asia and indeed is a symbol of positive things.

"and his alliance with Germany even before WW2 started". It's not as black and white as it may seem. Read the history books and you will find that both western European nations and the Soviet Union were afraid of a German invasion and tried to avert the danger. Both sides wanted to shift the danger to the other side (Britain-France <> USSR). The international situation at that time was very complex and with many uncertainties. Wouldn't you have signed an non-agression pact to prevent Germany from invading your country?

http://www.gtacenter.com/sig/sig.php (http://www.gtacenter.com/lomac/)

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:42 PM
just my 2 cents.

Given Germany's history banning the swastica is not unreasonable. I do not feel "historical realism" is hurt by the lack of a swastica on German planes. On Finlands yeah i suppose, but i don't care really.
I have some friends whose parents met in Nazi concentration camps. Sometimes I think it belittles their suffering when people start clamoring for Swasticas. seems like some kind of fetish, like their really is still some sort of connection between that symbol & .....certain emotions. Can't put it into words, but just want to say I support the decision Not to include swasticas in this game.

I am not really offended by folks who want to add them, & may do so myself someday, but

this way we all have a choice.

Ain't freedom grand!




http://www.ciudadfutura.com/aviones/yak-1.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:45 PM
Well for me personally it's stricly about the historical aspect. They were on the aircraft, no denying. It's not to endorse or promote what it stands for.

http://www.gtacenter.com/sig/sig.php (http://www.gtacenter.com/lomac/)

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:57 PM
Il2stab will fix this. Although I've heard all the arguments about swastika's being illegal in a lot of European countries, this still doesn't seem to justify UBI's decision to completely disable a feature which was in the Rusian game and force us to download a third party fix. I remember WW2 fighters also came with swastikas hidden, but the game's own config utility allowed you to put them on. Personally, I could care less if the German planes had their swastikas (you do after all get authentic national cross markings), but the use of the postwar Finnish roundel is a complete travesty and an insult to Finns (who never were nazis trying to enslave the world!)

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:15 PM
TAJ1964 wrote:
<font color=orange>
- the roundels on the Finnish
- planes actually did not come into use before 1.april
- 1945 - before that, they used the </font>Hak<font color=orange>i</font>risti

Hak<font color=orange>a</font>risti, rather, if you want to write it in Finnish.

However, as it is the name of the shape only, it makes no difference between a nazi-swastika and the insignia adopted by the Finnish Air Force in 1918. Therefore I'd recommend calling the FAF insignia "Von Rosen's cross". For more information, please see our squadron home page:

http://www.LeLv30.net/english.php#von_rosen

<table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=3"><tr><td>
[b]<font color=white>
<A HREF="http://www.LeLv30.net" TARGET=_blank>
LeLv30_Superbus
Toimistoaliupseeri
Lentolaivue 30</A></font></td></tr></table>

Message Edited on 07/16/0309:32PM by LeLv30_Superbus

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 04:10 AM
The swastica is waaay older than the Nazism, and I believe it shouldn't be "erased" just because the crazy mustache guy put it in their flags and arms. But the swastica in the white roundel with the red background, THAT is the Nazi symbol, present in every gestapo and SS dude's right arm /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 03:34 PM
to FAF Lentolaivue 30:

I was waiting for a Finn to respond, so thank you very much.
From now on, I will mention your Hakaristi as a Von Rosen Cross.

I have always had the outmost respect for Finland, its armed forces and population during WW2. Names like Suomussalmi, Kitel√¬§, Tolvaj√¬§rvi and Viipuri demands that kind of respect. Personally, I have had the pleasure of working together with Finnish soldiers in both Bosnia and Kosovo. Good soldiers and good friends.

Again, thank you for your information. I have visited your squadron site on the net - it looks great and is very informative.

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 05:07 PM
Hello TAJ, I hope you understand finnish ‚¬īcause otherwise you missed lots of funny stories....btw, are you Danish?

<table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=3">
<tr><td><font color=white>
<A HREF="http://www.LeLv30.net" TARGET=_blank>
LeLv30_Redwing
Laivueen varakomentaja
Kouluttaja
Lentolaivue 30
</A></font></td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:02 PM
LOL my reaction exactly. Followed shortly by "Good thing I'm no longer with my Jewish ex-girlfriend, and she didn't see that".

spoon_DEF wrote:
- Jez Man! That was quite an intrusive piece of
- software. I currently have a swastika on my taskbar.
- I wanted to enable swastikas on German planes not on
- "My Computer"...!
-
- *DELETE*

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 01:18 AM
Oh, yes - I'm Danish, of German descent on both maternal and paternal side. Actually, my eldest brother was the son of a WW2 German soldier and was born 5.May 1945; Liberation Day in Denmark. How about that?

I'm a doghandler in the Military Police of the Royal Danish Airforce. I have been on peacekeeping missions with NATO or UN forces in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Cyprus and Kyrgyzstan. Lots of finns out there too.....

Oberstabsgefreiter TAJ
K√¬∂nigliches D√¬§nisches Luftwaffe

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 01:59 AM
Kiwiflyer wrote:
- Hi Esquire 1, nice picture, what part of N.Z are you
- from?
-
- Cheers kiwiflyer
-
-

Hey ya Kiwiflyer,
I'm in Wellington. I've been playing IL2 since Mar 02 and now onto FB...offline for now (56k = no fun).Spending wwaaaaayyyyy too much time on this fantastic game!!!!
Yeah the Kiwis cool ay? Mate of mine has a flag like it that he flies when crewing on yachts in Sth France...sets the scene really!!
What about you Kiwiflier....where you from?

Later Esq.

"Fightin' Kiwis"

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/n/nz_fighk.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 09:06 AM
Good to hear from ya Esquire 1, im from hamilton, and a group of us from hamilton fly most nites( when wife with let me haha !!!!!) i am also on 56k so there not a problem there.if you wanted to fly online with us ( coop or dogfight).I fly on line as Kiwiflyer so i might see in the skies some time then .
What name do you fly online as ?



Go the All blacks!!!!


Kiwiflyer