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XyZspineZyX
05-12-2003, 06:49 PM
Hi all.
Today´s update shows to types of gunsight on the P51.
This seem to confirm what Oleg said some time ago: The P51 will have a gyro gunsight.
I was a little worried about that, because in the latest dev updates, the gunsight was a standart one.
I hope Oleg could duplicate the gyroscopic mechanism including the reticle size modifications, depending of the type of plane, but if only creates a simple lead prediction I will be happy too.
If only Oleg could update the P47 cockpit too.......

Thanks Oleg and please, hurry up with the patch :-)


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XyZspineZyX
05-12-2003, 06:49 PM
Hi all.
Today´s update shows to types of gunsight on the P51.
This seem to confirm what Oleg said some time ago: The P51 will have a gyro gunsight.
I was a little worried about that, because in the latest dev updates, the gunsight was a standart one.
I hope Oleg could duplicate the gyroscopic mechanism including the reticle size modifications, depending of the type of plane, but if only creates a simple lead prediction I will be happy too.
If only Oleg could update the P47 cockpit too.......

Thanks Oleg and please, hurry up with the patch :-)


Athlon XP 2400+
Club3D ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
ASUS A7n8X Motherboard
2x512Mb DDR333 RAM
Windows XP Pro
2xWD120Gb ATA100 HDs

XyZspineZyX
05-12-2003, 07:15 PM
Oleg said during the Dev Chat a while ago that if the P-51 cockpit had the K-14 (gyro reticle) it would be functional. So, yes...it SHOULD work.

At the time of the chat he said it wouldn't have it at first, but he would model (or might model it) later. It appears it is indeed modeled!

Can't wait.

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XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 10:02 AM
jeeez! The Ace Maker! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I've read somewhere that the mustang vets didnt like it very much, as they were used to make deflection calculations in their mind, so the gyro collimator screwed up their shooting calculations, forcing them to keep it into the locked position (so using it as the old N-9).

SJ

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 10:37 AM
How about fixing Revi-gunsights too? After all it was used practically in all german planes. Now the ring is way too small compared to RL, so you cannot use it as it was used.

As long as Revi isn't fixed its good that Brewsters sights are not fixed either from incorrect, but right sized american N-3/9 (or at least it looks like that) sight to correct Revi 3c sights. Now Brewster seems to be the only axis plane which has fully usable sight. And that is because of bug... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 01:05 PM
Sternjager wrote:
- jeeez! The Ace Maker! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
- I've read somewhere that the mustang vets didnt like
- it very much, as they were used to make deflection
- calculations in their mind, so the gyro collimator
- screwed up their shooting calculations, forcing them
- to keep it into the locked position (so using it as
- the old N-9).
-


Hi,

If I remember right, Mk14 gyrosight need manually presetup for certain enemy plane wingspan.
To get advantage of the gyro function, pilot need keep STEADY trancking to the target about few seconds until sight start show correct lead.

Enemy plane just need perform Out Of Plane maneuver and initial flight phase to tracking enemy must start again...

I hope Oleg can modeling the pilot workload for this sight or we really have CCIP sight...

Br

XJazz

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 01:12 PM
Kannaksen, you´re absolutely right. The Revi sights are
incorrectly modelled. The ring is simply too small. Besides, there are incongruences between the zoom level and the proportional size of the ring size.

I can´t explain it, but my gunnery is great using the Brewster. I easily target engines and cockpits, but using the FW190 is impossible.

A lot of times, and a lot of people had complained about the german sights, but the only answer have been to change the color to orange.

I dont think that Oleg change it until his next sim.

Must be incredibly easy to increase the size of the Revi ring. Is only a bitmap!! Why not change it in the patch?

Greetings


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XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 01:49 PM
luke97 wrote:
- Kannaksen, you´re absolutely right. The Revi sights
- are
- incorrectly modelled. The ring is simply too small.


What is the size of the ring in RL?


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 01:55 PM
- I can´t explain it, but my gunnery is great using
- the Brewster. I easily target engines and cockpits,
- but using the FW190 is impossible.

I know how you feel. Thats why I dont want "historical" sights in Brewster, because you HAVE to hit certain places with its MG's.

- Must be incredibly easy to increase the size of the
- Revi ring. Is only a bitmap!! Why not change it in
- the patch?

If it would be only an error it could surely be addressed by now. I have my conclusion which I dont want to believe but I cannot say it aloud. Vultures are already circling, ready to strike. And boy they are vicious!

S!

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 01:59 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- luke97 wrote:
-- Kannaksen, you´re absolutely right. The Revi sights
-- are
-- incorrectly modelled. The ring is simply too small.
-
-
- What is the size of the ring in RL?
-
-
--jippo
-


Sorry Jippo, I have no values to give. I remember reading a study in ORR or simhq looong time ago, where it was compared but sadly I cant find it anymore.

Could those LLv34 guys check it? They were studying it on museum some time ago?

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 02:28 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
-
- Sorry Jippo, I have no values to give. I remember
- reading a study in ORR or simhq looong time ago,
- where it was compared but sadly I cant find it
- anymore.

Remember that it is quite difficult to measure because it is an angular dimension, it would need a quote from a manual to sort it out.

- Could those LLv34 guys check it? They were studying
- it on museum some time ago?

Here is a thread (http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=000751) about their last visit, but they don't say anything about the reticle size with the exception of good viewing distances.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 09:22 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-

- <a
- href="http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/
- bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=000751">Here
- is a thread</a> about their last visit, but they
- don't say anything about the reticle size with the
- exception of good viewing distances.
-
-
--jippo
-
-

Yes, thats the thread when they last time were fiddling the revi sight, and where I got immersion they could could give some hard data, but thats not the thread I was referring to.

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 09:35 PM
IRL the Revi was set as follow : a wingspan of 10m should fit the circle at 100m.

Butch


Butch


Butch

XyZspineZyX
05-13-2003, 09:38 PM
butch2k wrote:
- IRL the Revi was set as follow : a wingspan of 10m
- should fit the circle at 100m.

Ahh, yes, so it was! I have really short memory, as I couldn't remember that part from A.Galland's Schiessfibel!

Dumpkopf! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thread is here (http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=000704)

And the actual shooting guide itself here (http://www.rafiger.de/Homepage/Pages/Schiessfibel.html) Under 18's shall not enter! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



-jippo

Ps. excellent read, heartily recommended to everyone! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Message Edited on 05/13/0308:42PM by Jippo01

XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 10:00 AM
Bump

XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 10:29 AM
Wow excellent document!

Wish my german wasn't as rusty. Reading this will sure be a good œbung.

Nic.


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XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 10:47 AM
I hope that the Handicaps of this computing device will be modeld as well!
The pilot had to I.D. the enemy aircraft first, then set the selector to that a/c type ( In wich the wingspan was of importance to the computing calculations)
Then the pilot had to track the a/c for two seconds in it sights and from there it could be used! So Acemaker yes! for the averige pilot versus the averige Opponent!
This site was not designed for Ace's who either had the skill of diflection shooting naturely or where able to close in on their opponent in order they could not miss!(and Hitting power was the strongest)
In reallity there was a small chance for the late war USAAF pilot to encounter a enemy Ace or Veteran pilot, Some didn't encounter fliyng enemy's at all!
For these regular pilots the K-14 deflection Computing sight was a welcome help, just like the late war G-suits.
The USAAF gave the regular pilots a edge with these over a already crumbeling down Reichs verteidigung.
Regards,
Kees.

XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 10:57 AM
If I remember well what I read the gyro gunsights worked not so well on the Sabres in Korea. Did they work well with the Mustangs in 1945?

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 11:10 AM
My impression about the gyro system is that on short ranges on a dodging target they are virtually useless( <- I hope the crosshair can be locked in place). But they will show their value at the ranges of 200-500m when the target is performing a slight turn. Such situations do happen quite frequently in the game, for example as a 109 driver is initiating spiral climb over the Mustang or trying to run away from him.

On such cases it will be an interesting weapon, especially as even a single .50 hit can cause big problems to 109.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 12:46 PM
Just for history..

Once again British engineering made a considerable contribution to the Mustang, this time in the form of the British Ferranti "GGS Mark IID" computing gyro sight, replacing the relatively simple Bell & Howell gunsights used to this time.

The Ferranti sight, manufactured under license in the US as the "K-14", allowed the pilot to dial in the target wingspan and target range, and then told the pilot when he had a good shot at the target.

So designed after British specs, powered by British engine, aim asisted by a British sight.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Btw Many pilots considered the 51B the best 51 in the ww2.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
So i want P51B or Mustang III.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 09:13 PM
butch2k wrote:
- IRL the Revi was set as follow : a wingspan of 10m

If that's true, the circle should be 5.7 degrees in diameter.

You can tell how big the circle is by comparing it to the size of the full moon. If the moon is modelled correctly in the sim, it will have a diameter of half a degrees.

Revi circle diameter = arctan(100m/10m)
Revi circle diameter = 5.71059 deg.

Lunar angular diameter (mean) = 0.5182 deg.

So the Revi circle should be 11.02 full moons across.

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XyZspineZyX
05-14-2003, 09:24 PM
IV_JG51_Theo wrote:
- Revi circle diameter = arctan(100m/10m)
- Revi circle diameter = 5.71059 deg.
-
- Lunar angular diameter (mean) = 0.5182 deg.
-

What about easier way?


Ju-88 wingspan is 20,08 metres, put icons on and fly at 200m distance from the Ju. If it fills the ring, ring is of correct size. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
05-15-2003, 03:13 AM
The K-14 was a great addition for the average marksman.

I believe the dial for the wingspan was found on the throttle, and was easy to use.

Of course veteran pilots, confident of their deflection shooting, would opt not to use it. For the average Joe, it made his plane better.

In Korea the sight the Sabre used was a radar gunsight. It too had to be dialed into the proper wingspan, but was usually just left to the MiG-15's specifications.

Gabreskie was reputed to put his chewing gum on the windshield rather than use the radar gunsight in Korea.

The Mustang was not the only Allied plane to use the K-14.

XyZspineZyX
05-15-2003, 03:26 AM
The K-14 only needed adjustment above ranges of 200yrds if the pilot had to span the target. The US K-14/A, & the US Navy's Mark-18 sight as well, were license built copies, of the British MK II CGS. The Germans felt the K-14 & G suits gave US pilots a distinct advantage in combat.


Regards, John Waters


Deutschland soll nie verlieren. IL müssen-2 das reflektieren

"The pilot who sees the other first, already has half the victory".

Erich Hartmann.

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-----


"Babes, Bullets, & Bombs, damn I love this job."

Duke Nukem.


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-------------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to
make their life fulfilled.



Message Edited on 05/14/0310:29PM by PzKpfw

XyZspineZyX
05-15-2003, 03:44 AM
PzKpfw wrote:
- The K-14 only needed adjustment above ranges of
- 200yrds if the pilot had to span the target. The US
- K-14/A, & the US Navy's Mark-18 sight as well, were
- license built copies, of the British MK II CGS. The
- Germans felt the K-14 & G suits gave US pilots a
- distinct advantage in combat.


John;

Were they licensed built copies? My source says they were based on an older British design but says nothing about being "copies" or being built under license.

Thanks.



Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
05-15-2003, 03:54 AM
The Fw190's problem is that it's too heavily armed. the Brewster uses Browning .50 cals so common on WW2 american planes. They don't bounce your ship around like cannons do. I think this was one reason the americans disliked mounting cannon on their aircraft. Also, cannons fire slower than MG's, which makes EXTREMELY good aim (or luck) essential. MG's are much more forgiving

XyZspineZyX
05-15-2003, 04:14 AM
SkyChimp wrote:

- John;
-
- Were they licensed built copies? My source says
- they were based on an older British design but says
- nothing about being "copies" or being built under
- license.
-
- Thanks.

Everything i have seen states "licensed built copies". The below URL supports this to:

http://paparomeo.freeyellow.com/sighttable.html

Regards, John Waters

Deutschland soll nie verlieren. IL müssen-2 das reflektieren

"The pilot who sees the other first, already has half the victory".

Erich Hartmann.

http://www.brooksart.com/Prowlsml.jpg


-----


"Babes, Bullets, & Bombs, damn I love this job."

Duke Nukem.


http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_bj.jpg



-------------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to
make their life fulfilled.

XyZspineZyX
05-15-2003, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the link.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 12:02 AM
There's a nice article about the Ferranti gyro sight in one of the newsletters by the Farnborough Services trust. The newsletter has gone from their web page, but is still available at archive.org

http://web.archive.org/web/20010128083100/http://www.fasta.freeserve.co.uk/newslt21.htm

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 12:28 AM
hop2002 wrote:
- There's a nice article about the Ferranti gyro sight
- in one of the newsletters by the Farnborough
- Services trust. The newsletter has gone from their
- web page, but is still available at archive.org


Good read. thanks.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 04:25 AM
luke97 wrote:
- Kannaksen, you´re absolutely right. The Revi sights
- are
- incorrectly modelled. The ring is simply too small.
- Besides, there are incongruences between the zoom
- level and the proportional size of the ring size.
-
- I can´t explain it, but my gunnery is great using
- the Brewster. I easily target engines and cockpits,
- but using the FW190 is impossible.
-
- A lot of times, and a lot of people had complained
- about the german sights, but the only answer have
- been to change the color to orange.
-
- I dont think that Oleg change it until his next sim.
-
- Must be incredibly easy to increase the size of the
- Revi ring. Is only a bitmap!! Why not change it in
- the patch?


I thought the real revi sights had a little knob on the bottom to change that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif