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Mike8686
09-04-2004, 08:40 AM
Does anyone actually score kills with it? It just seems so weak to me, weaker than it should be from interpretation of what I've read about WWII 109 pilots (Hartmann in particular) The damn thing barely does any damage! Any tips for using it?

Mike8686
09-04-2004, 08:40 AM
Does anyone actually score kills with it? It just seems so weak to me, weaker than it should be from interpretation of what I've read about WWII 109 pilots (Hartmann in particular) The damn thing barely does any damage! Any tips for using it?

Maple_Tiger
09-04-2004, 08:47 AM
Most who fly the BF109 and are very good in it, set there convergence at around 150m.

Even Hartment wated until he was very very close.

Practice your gunnery some more, but don't fire on the target plane until your atleast 160m away with convergence set to 150m. This will take practice...alot of practice.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
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Cajun76
09-04-2004, 08:48 AM
..................

I'll just reply to your next 20mm thread, saves time.


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Good hunting,
Cajun76
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If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

F19_Ob
09-04-2004, 08:50 AM
Sometimes it is possible to score kills with a single or a few shells, but sometimes a plane can take up to 8 hits (did in real life too)

In my own training with single bops I "killed" the opponent 15 times of 50 sorties.(mixed planes)
Remember also that hits on wing edges may not cause serious damage and the explosion often goes off outside the plane without shrapnel impact.

In real life there was a possibility of much more detailed and varied damage to plane and pilot wich ofcourse is limited in FB.

Mental-Patient
09-04-2004, 08:54 AM
~S~ One word (accuracy) dont just double tap ... get a good long burst in and the target will go down if not fall apart, fly offline and practice on some il2's you need to get a good burst accurately on target, when you can do that consistently you learn to like it...anyway have to go its my medication time

[This message was edited by Mental-Patient on Sat September 04 2004 at 08:42 AM.]

Red_Russian13
09-04-2004, 12:29 PM
I've gotten plenty of kills with the 20mm. Call me crazy though, I prefer the Emil with the wing mounted 20mm for some reason. I would have loved flying some of the later 109s with wing mounted 20mm...

I'm okay with the 30mm, but it seems a bit much for DFing. Plus the almighty flash.

Anyway, it's possible to get kills with the engine mounted 20mm. Just with practice.

Red Russian

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mortoma
09-04-2004, 01:50 PM
I have no problem with the 20mm, except against B-17s. In RL the 20mm cannons would tear B-17s to shreds. Yes, the B-17 was tough but not as tough as it is in FB. I get plenty of kills with the micro-cannon ( 15mm ) in the 109-F2, so the 20mm is more than enough against most fighters. At least for me. If the 15mm can bring down fighters, so can the bigger 20mm, and it does easily.

LuftLuver
09-04-2004, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
I have no problem with the 20mm, except against B-17s. In RL the 20mm cannons would tear B-17s to shreds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not completely true.

Well-known guncam from a 20mm 109 pounding a Fort from only a few meters. The Fort takes hit after hit after hit and is still flying straight and level. Maybe it went down later, but it wasn't falling apart.

You can see the footage on any number of HistoryChannel shows and probably on the net too. Too lazy to find it for you though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

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jugent
09-04-2004, 02:53 PM
If you fly a german plane you are surprised that you dont kill a granted pray, If you fly a allied plane, you are surprised that you hit and kill with a fang-shoot.

Jumoschwanz
09-04-2004, 10:04 PM
Of course it would be nice to have the single twenty a bit stronger. But I would not want it that way unless it was historically accurate. It is not bad now. If you want a laugh install the old Il2 with the last patch and see how weak it was then. The G2 with gunpods did not have as much killing power as the current patch with a single twenty. How did we fly those things? Most flew the g6a/s with the single thirty back then. It was more deadly than it is now.
I do not have luck with the single twenty. You have to be right on the money with it for too long for a definite kill. I like the g2 with the three twenties. It only loses a little speed and handling, and it can disable an enemy in one zoom-pass. If you are doing it right you do not miss the little bit of speed and handling you have given up. I have still out turned and burned a P-51D with this setup but it was not fun.

Jumoschwanz

Franzen
09-05-2004, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike8686:
Does anyone actually score kills with it? It just seems so weak to me, weaker than it should be from interpretation of what I've read about WWII 109 pilots (Hartmann in particular) The damn thing barely does any damage! Any tips for using it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not the purpose of the 20mm. See, in the early days of the 109 they didn't have canopies or goggles with effective wipers. The purpose of the 20mm was to clear bugs from your flightpath or to aggrevate small birds. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Fritz Franzen

karost
09-05-2004, 12:39 AM
Mostly my style for playing in DF server is hit & run (hi-speed deflection snap-shot attack) along

hi-speed deflection snap-shot attack with mk-108 is a solution , when I get close target (below 150 meter) with a lot of energy no need to reduce speed just put more trim to pull up and line up deflection-snapshot profile if opponent aware of danger he will break hard or sprit-S in this moment one second brush for mk-108 will send 6 round of 30mm ammo just one or two bullet hit at tail or wing root at 70 meters that is enough, but normally I was overshoot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , then I use my big energy zoom up to a dark blue sky or a sun light to make a big altitude separation , event opponents have 2-3 guys grouping together climb follow me , I still easy to control domain - situation along. But 20mm for hi-speed hi-deflection snap shot attack seem not work to me


for shooting with mg151/20 effective I have to reduce my air speed relate to opponent air speed and keep stay on low-degree of deflection angle and keep brush 20mm over 1.5 second to send 10-15 bullet to hit at major DM part. and in normal situation the opponent will not stay direct line flying to let me shot easy he will dance around my gun sigh, I have to shoot over 50-70 round of 20mm and only 5-7 round that make a hit, and every one can easy see my location from looking my light of gunfire, then a lot of opponent -mate will come on my tail in next 1 min. And I have not enough energy for run.

I like to use mg151/20 but situation in DF-server seem not easy for me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

crazyivan1970
09-05-2004, 01:05 AM
20mm is very accurate and very deadly from distances under 150m, 2-5 rounds will either cripple of kill.

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

269GA-Veltro
09-05-2004, 02:29 AM
The only way now to kill something with 20mm (151/20) is fire on the engine. The same with the 30mm.

I would like know why .50 left on my wing 20mm holes, meanwhile P51 is able to take two or three 30mm shoots without problem. Is only an online lag problem?

As usual, in 2.01 we had 20mm.

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Cajun76
09-05-2004, 02:41 AM
Visual damage dosen't always match actual damage, there's a thread on GD about it. Persoanlly, I take the strength of weapons online with a grain of salt. Sometimes it takes up to twice the ammo to bring em down online as opposed to off.

Also, aim for the engine, cockpit, wingroot, that sort of thing. Robert S. Johnson came back with 20+ 20mm hits to his P-47. Firstly, it's a tough bird. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif Secondly, and still very important, the hits were all over his a/c, not just one wing or his fuselage.

Good hunting,
Cajun76
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If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

269GA-Veltro
09-05-2004, 02:50 AM
Yes, online is different...you are right.

P47 was a tank, not surprise there; is right.

But online or not, too many time also with 190, 20mm are totally weak; some .50 bullets...and your 109 is full of 20mm holes in the wing, and with the controls out. One only Spitfire's 20mm shoot, and FW 190 lost its wing. I don't see damage in the P51 wings, also with a 30mm shoot.

Is only an online problem?

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Multimetal
09-05-2004, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
I have no problem with the 20mm, except against B-17s. In RL the 20mm cannons would tear B-17s to shreds. Yes, the B-17 was tough but not as tough as it is in FB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I recall correctly, the 8th AF decided that it took on average 20 20mm hits to down a B-17. I don't know how they arrived at that number, but I've seen it quoted several times. I've also seen pictures of 17's that returned home with no nose, or most of the tail gone, or a hole the size of a small car where the radio room used to be, so they could be tough!

Cajun76
09-05-2004, 03:54 AM
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

B-17's have a reputation for being solid for a reason. Wow. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76
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If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

bazzaah2
09-05-2004, 03:58 AM
I don't have any problems bringing planes down with the 20mm equipped 109s.

Have been trying to get grips with vertical fighting against VVS planes, mainly 10gG2 v Ls5s and Yaks. Wings come off, Yaks explode, smoke belches from engines with short burts etc. Fire from less than 200mm for desired results, though closer of possible.

You really can engage and disengage at will, though not tried with US/UK planes yet. Yesterday, offline, I got 3 (veteran) La5FNs in a G6 and returned to base with half my ammo and the Las didn't even get a shot off. I really like/admire the 109 and the armament it has, in my experience and not altogether humble opinion, is good for its job.

G10/14/K4 and Yak 3/9 is a fun fight too and the 30mm really shreds those suckers; key is the distance.

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09-05-2004, 05:16 AM
personaly i prefer the 20mm in a dogfight, if you dont down him in your first pass, you have certanly damaged him, if you scored a few hits
and you have a great armament if you fly the g-6 or later because you then have the two 13mm to back it up.

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Platypus_1.JaVA
09-05-2004, 05:35 AM
You should come in close to your oponent. 150m is the max distance for the gun. I see some people taking shots from over 500m. This is good for scaring an opponent but, not enough for bringing him down.

Also, aim at the wingsroots for maximum effect.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

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Platypus_1.JaVA
09-05-2004, 05:36 AM
This actually is a hint that goes for all aircraft in the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

clint-ruin
09-05-2004, 06:26 AM
Due to the way FB tallies up the damage from different kinds of rounds, the MG-151/20 cannon has some slightly different behaviour to other guns in the game.

High explosive rounds in FB tend to be rotten for getting two particular kinds of kills: engine stoppages and fires, and pilot kills. They work out pretty well as far as causing general structural damage to the plane goes, and allow you to get two hits in some distance away from each other and have the damage for both hits count on the same section of the aircraft.

You can see how damage works in FB by setting the switch "arcade=1" in the FB conf.ini file [which is in the main Il-2 FB installation directory with Il2FB.EXE]. This will show different colour/size/types of arrows depending on where a bullet hits and from which type of round. If you leave this switch on for a while and play the game normally, you'll end up with quite a good understanding of how the damage effects in FB are calculated. This switch only turns on the bullet impact effects, just ignore that it's called "arcade" mode - it doesn't turn FB into Galaga or anything.

AP rounds are able to do damage in a long, straight line from the point of impact. HE rounds spray their damage out over a wide area - more total damage than from most AP rounds, but spread around in a sphere. HE rounds tend to have fairly rotten penetration as far as FB is concerned with modelling them - they don't go through armour plate very well. They're good for being able to spray a target and have multiple hits add up to each others damage, or at least, they're better than AP rounds are for that.

The MG-151/20 has 4 explosive rounds to every one API round. This means that only one out of every five bullets has an excellent chance of killing the component it hits directly, or penetrating through say, the tip of the rudder through to the fuselage through to the pilot armour through to the pilot. The others rounds are good for say, hitting the middle section of a wing, or blowing the entire tailplane controls section off, or hitting both the wing root and the fuselage at the same time.

The reason HE damage is a little strange in FB seems to be because there isn't much accounting for the overpressure/heat effects of explosive rounds. Damage spreads out in little fragments of the bullet as you can see in Arcade mode, but the energy release from the round exploding isn't well represented. Hopefully BOB or some later sim will add some kind of volumetric pressure damage system.

If you look at the bullet damage tables in FB you'll also see why rounds from the big guns, like the NS-37, MK-108, etc, seem to sometimes get dud hits where nothing much happens in terms of damage. Almost all of them [aside from the M-4 in the P-39] alternate between two or more different kinds of round - usually an AP and then an HE. Different kinds of hits in different locations on a plane, with different kinds of rounds, from different angles, do different kinds of damage in FB. In the case of the Mk-108, the typically less damaging HEIT round is fired every second shot - but this is the only kind of shot that will leave a tracer round. The big 'mine' rounds don't have any tracer component to them.

Anyhow - there are some good ideas for shooting in this thread, but another couple are to give the bullet damage table a look and turn arcade mode on for a bit.

edit: actually, another thing to note is that you'll see some weird things going on with the graphic explosion effects in FB if you play with arcade mode long enough. Some guns - like the MG151/20 and MK108 - leave the same kinds of graphic explosions for AP rounds as they do for MG or HE rounds. Some other guns like the HS-20mm MkI and NS-37 don't leave any explosive effects for their AP rounds - just a tiny puff of debris will fly away from the target. Helps to bear this in mind when you're playing.

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