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View Full Version : Haytham was weak minded **SPOILERS**



Radman500
07-23-2014, 04:49 AM
it shows how Haytham was so weak minded...he too was raised by a templar like Arno, but Arno was able to make his own decision.

RaulO4
07-23-2014, 04:51 AM
i dont know about that,
i mean what Haytham was saying made a lot of sense

Assassin_M
07-23-2014, 05:03 AM
i mean what Haytham was saying made a lot of sense
No it didn't.

JustPlainQuirky
07-23-2014, 05:03 AM
Uhh Haytham made his own descision by chosing the templars. He agreed with their ideals. When he found out his father was an Assassin, he was upset but he felt his beliefs were just. And he didn't kiss Reginald's feet. He hunted the man down and his sister killed him right infront of him.

You're never too 'weak' to accept certain ideals. You either believe in one or another.

Xstantin
07-23-2014, 05:06 AM
10/10. At this point you know literally almost nothing about Arno, but do carry on.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 05:09 AM
mayo frost wants a chat

RaulO4
07-23-2014, 05:15 AM
No it didn't.

that just a matter of view,


for me it made sense and he was right in many ways

one way, he did say they wanted to buy the lands to protect them why? because later the Americans push them out of it

in some ways he was right in other he was wrong,

LoyalACFan
07-23-2014, 05:26 AM
By the same logic you could say Arno was weak-minded since he was raised Templar, but got turned to the Assassins' ideals as an adult. Who's the more weak-minded, the person who follows what they've been taught their whole life, or someone who can be easily swayed from their convictions?

Anyway, we don't even know if that's what happens in Unity, so it's a moot point.

Assassin_M
07-23-2014, 05:38 AM
that just a matter of view,


for me it made sense and he was right in many ways

one way, he did say they wanted to buy the lands to protect them why? because later the Americans push them out of it

in some ways he was right in other he was wrong,
Yeah, he said he wanted to keep the land safe....Who was keeping it safe? Johnson....how was Johnson keeping it safe? forcing a sale without the consent of the ones living on it...what did he do when they refused to sell him? he started killing them....Words are cheap, I can tell you i'm killing these people for the better of everyone else...would you believe me? and if you did, why would you?

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 06:01 AM
I don't think Haytham was Weak-minded.....not by a long shot. He CHOSE the Templars which is kinda Contradicting every they say in the first place. Templars preach about how humanity shouldn't have THAT MUCH free will......yet it was his Free will to stay with Templars even though he knew his dad was an Assassin. Plus as someone else said, Haytham wasn't your typical "Birch is my master and master only...." type of Templar. He actually agreed with some of the Assassin's OLD ways like their fight for peace and such. ( I.e. Altair) but ever since, it's been: "I'M AN ASSASSIN AND I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM ONLY!" But Arno? All of this is probably speculation, but Arno's "Templar influences" probably aren't as forced as Haytham's was. But to say that one or the other is "weak-minded" for following a cause THEY chose is stupid. Otherwise I could say the same about Altair, Ezio, Connor, Edward, Aveline, Desmond, Nikolai, Adewale, etc.

Assassin_M
07-23-2014, 06:03 AM
I don't think Haytham was Weak-minded.....not by a long shot. He CHOOSE the Templars which is kinda Contradicting every they say in the first place. Templars preach about how humanity shouldn't have THAT MUCH free will......yet it was his Free will to stay with Templars even though he knew his dad was an Assassin. Plus as someone else said, Haytham wasn't your typical "Birch is my master and master only...." type of Templar. He actually agreed with some of the Assassin's OLD ways like their fight for peace and such. ( I.e. Altair) but ever since, it's been: "I'M AN ASSASSIN AND I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM ONLY!" But Arno? All of this is probably speculation, but Arno's "Templar influences" probably aren't as forced as Haytham's was. But to say that one or the other is "weak-minded" for following a cause THEY chose is stupid. Otherwise I could say the same about Altair, Ezio, Connor, Edward, Aveline, Desmond, Nikolai, Adewale, etc.
To be honest, the Assassins have always been about freedom...Altair through Ade.

SixKeys
07-23-2014, 06:05 AM
Could a mod edit the title to hide the spoiler? Some people may not have watched the making-of video.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 06:23 AM
To be honest, the Assassins have always been about freedom...Altair through Ade.

Yeah, all of them have been about preserving freedom for Humanity and whatnot, but Altair is the only Assassin that has truly wanted peace for EVERYONE. Connor's on that tip as well, but he's a little bit too naive to actually grasp that understanding.
Everyone else is separate reasons.
Ezio= Revenge/Justice/Truth
Edward=Money & Fame/ Redemption
Aveline= Freedom/Liberation
Adewale= Same as Aveline
Nikolai= Answers?
Connor= Freedom/ some aspects of peace
Altair= Peace

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 06:28 AM
Dude, the Assassins are always fighting for peace. That's the entire point of their Creed.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 06:33 AM
Dude, the Assassins are always fighting for peace. That's the entire point of their Creed.

I know it's part of the Creed.....but that's what it really is "part" every Assassin since Altair has always used Peace as a backseat to their own personal vendetta or obligation. Is the Creed itself about peace and things? Yes.....
Do ones that follow such creed always fight for it? No, I think not.

Assassin_M
07-23-2014, 06:33 AM
Yeah, all of them have been about preserving freedom for Humanity and whatnot, but Altair is the only Assassin that has truly wanted peace for EVERYONE. Connor's on that tip as well, but he's a little bit too naive to actually grasp that understanding.
Everyone else is separate reasons.
Ezio= Revenge/Justice/Truth
Edward=Money & Fame/ Redemption
Aveline= Freedom/Liberation
Adewale= Same as Aveline
Nikolai= Answers?
Connor= Freedom/ some aspects of peace
Altair= Peace
The thing is, though it was more prevalent to talk about peace in AC I because the setting was a war. The Assassins' goals had no interest in this war, it was for the freedom of no one and it only cost humanity more lives.
with Connor, war was a means to an end. Everything Connor actually did was for peace--trying to cut Johnson's funding without killing him, trying to kill Pitcairn thinking it'd end the war and stop the bloodshed, stopping Hickey from assassinating GW and enticing chaos in the Patriot ranks, killing Benjamin Church to equalize the tides of war and finally killing Lee because he planned a coup against the new patriot leaders. Sure, a war still erupted but that's what an Assassin is about..adapting. Connor adapted to the war, speeches about peace would be non-existent because this war was being fought for freedom. It was a means to an end.

Same goes for everyone else, they all had the goal of peace in the end. Ezio wanted peace of mind and closure after being so obsessed with revenge, Connor wanted peace through freedom..hoping that with all this war, bloodshed and savagery, humanity will find true peace, Aveline wanted freedom for the slaves and thus peace for them living independently.

it's really fascinating how when you connect the dots for both Assassins and Templars with their end goals, means and motivations, it all really makes sense on both sides--subjugation with a king leading with an iron fist would certainly beget peace. Freedom through liberation and co-existence would lead to a peace that's really on the long term...the process, that is.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 06:41 AM
@M. I agree.....I think you really hit the nail when you put it that way......it's all for a greater cause in the end. Just like the Templars, both sides actually go through similar lengths to make sure their "peace" is achieved.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 06:42 AM
But many do not want peace without freedom.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 06:48 AM
But many do not want peace without freedom.

( Haytham's Voice) "Freedom is an invitation to Chaos." With Freedom, someone can Kill me because I disagree or find their opinions wrong......as long as freedom exist, humans will ALWAYS be animals to one another.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 06:52 AM
Over time, humanity will grow. We will most likely not live to see harmony, but some day it will happen.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:04 AM
Over time, humanity will grow. We will most likely not live to see harmony, but some day it will happen.

No.....They cannot learn stuck in their ways. You are naive to believe otherwise because the PEOPLE do not have the power and the thing about that is THEY DON'T WANT IT! Does a baby know how to bathe, clothe, or read by itself? No.....it needs a someone to guide them.....same with Humanity. Their only mindless sheep who are desperate for a shepherd.
And that is why we're here...

Xstantin
07-23-2014, 07:09 AM
Is that some devious Templarity role-playing?

Assassin_M
07-23-2014, 07:14 AM
Is that some devious Templarity role-playing?
Yes, they have inherited it from me and Sixkeys...the original role players.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:16 AM
Is that some devious Templarity role-playing?

( Haytham's Voice) Perhaps......

poptartz20
07-23-2014, 07:16 AM
( Haytham's Voice) "Freedom is an invitation to Chaos." .

Boom! I love this quote! because there is so much truth in it!

And honestly... I think it was a little more complicated than oh.. well I made this choice to be a templar. Let me switch it back. Isn't that kind of thing punishable by death? Look at Church.
I don't think they take defectors too well.

and if we take a look at Haytham's background as well, you have a boy that idolized his father, dies on the eve of his 9th (or 10th I can't remember right now) birthday right before his father reveals that he is an assassin, birch takes him in training him the same way his father did while adding in parts of his own hidden agenda lies and warps his impressionable mind. while thinking the whole time this is probably what father would have wanted until he fully learned about assassins. but by then he was already inducted and moving up the ranks and truly believed in the templar cause because of the similarity to the creed of the assassins.

You're really in deep to just say hey... no more.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:19 AM
Yes, they have inherited it from me and Sixkeys...the original role players.

Of Course.......for we are brothers/sisters under the same light.

May the Father of understanding guide you/us.

Assassin_M
07-23-2014, 07:23 AM
Of Course.......for we are brothers/sisters under the same light.

May the Father of understanding guide you/us.
Nah, Sixkeys is not a Templar...but I am.

may the father of understanding
http://i.imgur.com/4VuDB.gif
guide us

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 07:24 AM
No.....They cannot learn stuck in their ways. You are naive to believe otherwise because the PEOPLE do not have the power and the thing about that is THEY DON'T WANT IT! Does a baby know how to bathe, clothe, or read by itself? No.....it needs a someone to guide them.....same with Humanity. Their only mindless sheep who are desperate for a shepherd.
And that is why we're here...
Most people are complacent because they were not truly taught to think. Critical thinking skills are practically impossible to learn as an adult. We need to teach people to think for themselves, to instill a thirst for knowledge, justice, and empathy. No one sole person or small group of people should guide humanity, humanity should guide itself.

Freedom is no easy process, it's complicated and messy, but it's the only way that we will truly deserve peace. Ethics and morality are important and should always be considered. The means are more important than the end.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:34 AM
Most people are complacent because they were not truly taught to think. Critical thinking skills are practically impossible to learn as an adult. We need to teach people to think for themselves, to instill a thirst for knowledge, justice, and empathy. No one sole person or small group of people should guide humanity, humanity should guide itself.

Freedom is no easy process, it's complicated and messy, but it's the only way that we will truly deserve peace. Ethics and morality are important and should always be considered. The means are more important than the end.

Yes.....and when the lights of Civilization dim, YOU and YOUR kind will watch from the rooftops saying: "I have done what's right."
Pfft.
Did you not hear what I said earlier? Humanity cannot guide itself.....their only Animals on going by instinct........like your pack of Wolves you call brothers! Ready to turn on each other when things go weary.
But the order.....is something more. WE REQUIRE NO CREED! No indoctrination by delusional souls stuck on their "faith". We has a dream......a realization!
And We won't stop until we grasp it.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 07:40 AM
i was actually being serious.
I believe what i'm posting.
I'm not trying to be an Assassin.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:40 AM
Good.....then let us join our swords together! And let humanity see the error of their ways.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 07:42 AM
what

Xstantin
07-23-2014, 07:44 AM
@Namikze, oh you sweet summer child *different fandom*

Seriously though, if you wanna get all philosophical, neither ideology is right, but that's a different topic all together and was covered extensively.

RaulO4
07-23-2014, 07:45 AM
Yeah, he said he wanted to keep the land safe....Who was keeping it safe? Johnson....how was Johnson keeping it safe? forcing a sale without the consent of the ones living on it...what did he do when they refused to sell him? he started killing them....Words are cheap, I can tell you i'm killing these people for the better of everyone else...would you believe me? and if you did, why would you?

i think these were one of the few gold in ac3, were it was gray and there was no black and white.

in this case because they couldnt buy the land now they will be killed and thrown out by the Americans... a worse out come...

now does the means justified the ends?

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:47 AM
i was actually being serious.
I believe what i'm posting.
I'm not trying to be an Assassin.

( Haytham's Voice)
As Am I.........

*Points guns at you*

SirTookTookIII
07-23-2014, 07:48 AM
damn dood

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 07:48 AM
@Namikze, oh you sweet summer child *different fandom*

Seriously though, if you wanna get all philosophical, neither ideology is right, but that's a different topic all together and was covered extensively.

I don't agree with the whole killing and assassination thing, but I do believe in the things I was saying earlier on the last page. Although I'm more of a pacifistic Gandhi/MLK sort of guy.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 07:53 AM
I don't agree with the whole killing and assassination thing, but I do believe in the things I was saying earlier on the last page. Although I'm more of a pacifistic Gandhi/MLK sort of guy.

I agree with you on peace....but you don't see Humanity as I do. Unlike you, I don't have this blind dependency on them.
Will this random man pay my bills? No.....
Will this random woman help me through personal issues? No....
My point is that EVERYONE can't be trusted so easily......

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 08:02 AM
*tilts head*

When did I ever say anything about purely being dependent on others, or trust for that matter?

As I said, freedom is messy and complicated, there are going to be bumps in the road, there are going to be fights you can't stop, fights you can't win. But mistakes are needed in order for growth to happen.

You can dream of your utopia controlled by subjugation and fear. What I want may be chaotic, but it is just.

Xstantin
07-23-2014, 08:03 AM
@Jexx, yeah I figured out you were somewhat serious.

Back on topic though, I wonder if Unity is actually going to make Templars/Assassins more fanatical and obsessive because of the whole FrRev situation with pointing fingers at traitors and tyrants.

HiddenKiller612
07-23-2014, 08:10 AM
A weak mind doesn't accept a creed or follow through with its ideals... a weak minded person is but a tool to be used in the masters hand... As we see in the beginning of AC3, Haytham wasn't a simple tool, nor weak minded... he believed in his ideals and had conviction to back them up... As for Arno, that is to be seen as we know very little of him.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 08:12 AM
*tilts head*

When did I ever say anything about purely being dependent on others, or trust for that matter?

As I said, freedom is messy and complicated, there are going to be bumps in the road, there are going to be fights you can't stop, fights you can't win. But mistakes are needed in order for growth to happen.

You can dream of your utopia controlled by subjugation and fear. What I want may be chaotic, but it is just.

I'm confused.....I was talking about the "Assassins" as I thought we were still roleplaying.
Lol.....but your personal views? I agree.
( Sigh) Maybe we should agree to disagree.

*Holds out Hand*

LoyalACFan
07-23-2014, 08:16 AM
People getting way too invested in the game's philosophy ITT

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 08:19 AM
People getting way too invested in the game's philosophy ITT

It's what they say.....it's a way of life.

Nah, Jk......I just like to engage with people.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 08:25 AM
I'm confused.....I was talking about the "Assassins" as I thought we were still roleplaying.
Lol.....but your personal views? I agree.
( Sigh) Maybe we should agree to disagree.

*Holds out Hand*

Haha I was never roleplaying I just like being dramatic.

Namikaze_17
07-23-2014, 08:33 AM
Haha I was never roleplaying I just like being dramatic.

WELL THANKS FOR MAKING ME FEEL GUILTY! ( Sarcastic Voice)

But yeah, you're just Momo I guess.

GunnerGalactico
07-23-2014, 10:09 AM
it shows how Haytham was so weak minded...he too was raised by a templar like Arno, but Arno was able to make his own decision.

Arno was raised by a Templar? I didn't know that :confused:

Locopells
07-23-2014, 10:36 AM
Hence the spoiler tags. It was mentioned in the second IGN 'Making of' video.

MasterAssasin84
07-23-2014, 12:16 PM
it shows how Haytham was so weak minded...he too was raised by a templar like Arno, but Arno was able to make his own decision.


I completely Disagree !

Lets not forget that Haytham was 10 years old when Edward was Murdered so when Reginald Birch took him under his care he was oblivious to birches true intentions .

The fact that his Son was an Assassin and aside the fact that he lost his family at a young age but was still able to stand firm in his convictions and self beliefs is a strong mind !

It was Haytham's choice to stay loyal to the Templar order not because he was obliged but because he believed in the principles of the order .

Read Forsaken - Best Assassins Creed Novel I have ever read .

pacmanate
07-23-2014, 02:33 PM
People getting way too invested in the game's philosophy ITT

AC's plots already gone to **** theres no point

MasterAssasin84
07-23-2014, 03:38 PM
People getting way too invested in the game's philosophy ITT

Nothing wrong in discussing the state of mind of the characters .

Its interesting .

Fatal-Feit
07-23-2014, 04:04 PM
AC's plots already gone to **** theres no point

I would have agreed if this was 3 years ago, but AC:3 and AC:IV have given us something interesting and worthy of discussing again, so.

Jexx21
07-23-2014, 05:28 PM
Don't forget ACR. It's the one that showed Ezio with the most problems.

EmbodyingSeven5
07-23-2014, 06:16 PM
at one point In his life Haytham wanted to be the best of both the assassins and the Templars. not just stuck to one side. but then after a few years he just became some kind of jerk who didn't seemed like he cared anymore, even though he still stuck as a templar

poptartz20
07-23-2014, 06:30 PM
yeah.. he was a jerk. but it's not like he didn't have reason.