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View Full Version : Sorry for doubting .. I (and many) was wrong



OldMan____
08-15-2004, 06:11 PM
Although I myself started some time ago a thread doubting of correct dive implementation in game, I know know that it is really there for the ones that know how to look for it (yeap.. full power and so). So I am apologizing for doubting.

For the ones that dod not got it yeat.. try a less strict interpretation of DIVE (there is a difference between dive and falling like a rock).

FW190 , P47 and so are indeed much better at dive than some other planes.

After this one I start to beleive that FW190 view was like that anyway :P

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

OldMan____
08-15-2004, 06:11 PM
Although I myself started some time ago a thread doubting of correct dive implementation in game, I know know that it is really there for the ones that know how to look for it (yeap.. full power and so). So I am apologizing for doubting.

For the ones that dod not got it yeat.. try a less strict interpretation of DIVE (there is a difference between dive and falling like a rock).

FW190 , P47 and so are indeed much better at dive than some other planes.

After this one I start to beleive that FW190 view was like that anyway :P

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

LEXX_Luthor
08-15-2004, 07:04 PM
Okay old man, how did you do it? Display your procedure.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

OldMan____
08-15-2004, 07:13 PM
Just select a shallow dive angle that you can be sure you are repeating in both planes.

I proceeded with 100% power in that shallow angle for a 1000m dive. Marked some speed poitns (when reached 500 km/h for instance. And after that each 10 km/h increase. Until 500km most planes come almost same (p51 arrives there with 50 meters alt advanatge.. wile me262 arrives with a hell of advantage) . At 550 km/h most diving planes will have at least 50 meters alt advantage.. wille some will have even 100m.

At until 500 km/h I cannot notice any difference.. unless in very special planes (zero and Me262)

Indeed the difference only appears in high speed. I don´t know WHY only at not too deep dives.. but.. hey.. it is a start.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

LEXX_Luthor
08-15-2004, 07:38 PM
What kind of shallow angle are we talking about? 10 degrees?

Makes some sense, as not much more steep than that and the much larger gravitational acceleration may wash out any differences between the much weaker self powered accelerations of the planes themselves.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-15-2004, 07:44 PM
Very steep dives the acceleration downwards is dominated by gravity over thrust and
until drag becomes of like magnitude, all things fall at the same rate. 500 kph is
about 310 mph? Around there some planes with thick wings start into compression and
around there many even slick planes are hitting the higher amounts of drag. Just
basic drag (the flat plate kind) increases with the square of the speed as a rough
rule of thumb.

Shallow dive, induced drag goes to zero and some assist from gravity is there.
Cockpit on, point the nose down and 10 degrees looks like a good dive, 30 looks steep.


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
08-16-2004, 01:26 AM
View is wrong and dive is wrong be sure. Dive is wrong cause i never saw or heard of real planes with prop going over 0.9 Mach like there is no limit and still accelerating faster until wings fall off(Not by 15 g limit). Prop acts like a rotating disc at high speed -> high drag factor. The plane reaches a point where further acceleration isnt possible.

Here a example dive test from 10000 m starting at 200 km/h powered and unpowered.

Take a look at the speed vs alt chart its almost linear.

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/p47.pdf

And dont mix view with other things.
Analyse one Problem seperate to each other.

There cant be one thing right and other is right automaticly when this things have nothing to do with each other.

The View is wrong cause when sit in a real fw with correct framing and armorglass you hardly notice a bar but that you can find out yourself by visiting a museum. When the Tail is pulled up its like sitting on the Plane not like sitting in 109. Also with stereoscopic vision you would reduce frames on the sides , but that effect is less for forward view only a sitenote many planes suffer from it. Another point is the forward view was partly optained by nose down attitude described in british and us tests.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

OldMan____
08-16-2004, 04:48 AM
Can't you understand a simple joke?

.... and I am saying it is modelled.. not that it is PERFECTLY modelled. Many things work strange near extreme limits on this and all other games.

And yes.. I made tests about 12-15 degree I estimate. Up to 20 degrees a can still feel quite same results.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

WWMaxGunz
08-16-2004, 08:37 AM
Settle down Hyperion! Maybe try decaf?

When I say from in cockpit that even 10 degrees looks a good bit downwards, I mean in reality
or any sim worth playing. A 30 degree dive or hill to drive down is what most sane people
call steep. So when I read pilot accounts that don't say angles but just steep, I take into
account how it looks through the window. Steep covers a WIDE range of dives where I'd say
"vertical" covers the extreme angles, maybe 65 and more degrees down as at least near-vertical.

Your mileagle may vary, it a matter of interpretation and remember that the pilot who made the
account was interpreting what he saw into his own words in the first place.

We will all just have to keep waiting for a sim that has no flaws.


Neal